Change the load order in the middle of the game WITHOUT REMOVING MODS is a problem ???

[Grey Cloud]

35 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

Basically, there are 2 types of references in a mod. Native ones, and Overwrite.

Thank you very much for that. That information will come in handy I think.

[GenioMaestro]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:46 PM, RW311 said:

The example I gave which is not uncomnon at all shows very clearly how load order can cause  missing or deleted references to be priority which is exadtly the same as if you removed the mod that was the loser. If mod a adds new studded armor to the game and changes reference id then mod b is loaded and changes reference back then mod a might as well not exist, this is basic stuff which makes me think you are way to defensive over this trivial crap.

Excuse me, but the studded armor code (0001B3A2) is always the same, no matter what  mod is doing the last change. Addiding a vanilla replacement armor modifier, DO NOT ERASE the data records on Skyrim.esm
If you add another armor replacement mod, it will replace the same data using the same codes without CLEAR anything. It is a simple replacement.

If you move your "second armor replacement" and put it over your "first armor replacement", of course, you will see in the game the armor of the last mode that made the last change and logically comes from the "first armor replacement" but that does not mean that the game shows "missing or deleted references" because it simply shows the information you have told it to show.

 

And I'm not on the defensive. I just want to make things very clear.

[GenioMaestro]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:27 PM, Grey Cloud said:

while the actual ID stays the same (apart from the first two digits).

If we talk about vanilla armors, the ID is always the same, without change any digit.

If the mod only change mesh and textures is imposible change any other data. 

If the mod have an ESP file for make changes to the record use the SAME code used in the Skyrim.esm

[RW311]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:29 AM, Grey Cloud said:

While I agree with you that this statement needs to be altered - Never say 'never'*, I would not define your example as a 'problem'. A waste of time having the overwitten armour installed, yes - but a problem?

 

* Or 'always', 'every', etc.

 

No this is not the problem

 

The problem with moving mod up or down is unless you are adding mods you must be changing relation of at least two mods and this is where you can cause a problem beyond just simple console fix or revert load order. You can shuffle most of your mods into whatever order you want but if you put into conflict mods with deleted or change ids, (not prefix id but static id) then you risk altering what is expected by save data.

[GenioMaestro]

It seems that some people do not believe me and I want you to read this interesting publication that I found on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/6wzemt/is_it_somewhat_safe_to_add_mods_in_an_ongoing/

 

You can read how one expert players say that is good while other say that is bad. But if you read the 35 comments you can find some interesting words from Arthmoor (i presume you know who is Arthmoor)

 

Saying very clear: Changing load order mid-game is harmless and It's not going to harm your save

 

Then, if you not like my words, ask yourself why Arthmoor say the same. Maybe because it true?

[Grey Cloud]

7 minutes ago, RW311 said:

"missing or deleted references",

I don't understand where this has suddenly appeared from.

 

9 minutes ago, RW311 said:

 will cause a problem beyond just fix it with load order change or console command.

I don't have to fix anything with a load order change or console command. I add and remove mods and plug-ins and play my game. I added and removed a few more mods the day before yesterday and it is still working without anything needing to be fixed.

[GenioMaestro]

1 hour ago, RW311 said:

conflict mods with deleted or change ids

Again, excuse me, but is IMPOSIBLE have a deleted ID or a changed ID when you have a CONFLICT because the conflict appear ONLY when two mods change the SAME record with the SAME ID.

 

The data stored inside the savegame ALWAYS reffer to the SAME ID no matter what mod provide it.

 

The only problem can happend when the stored data inside the savegame is INCOMPATIBLE with the new data that come from the ESP. In that case, and ONLY in that case, you can have problems like disapeared head.

[Grey Cloud]

21 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

It seems that some people do not believe me and I want you to read this interesting publication that I found on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/6wzemt/is_it_somewhat_safe_to_add_mods_in_an_ongoing/

 

You can read how one expert players say that is good while other say that is bad. But if you read the 35 comments you can find some interesting words from Arthmoor (i presume you know who is Arthmoor)

 

Saying very clear: Changing load order mid-game is harmless and It's not going to harm your save

 

Then, if you not like my words, ask yourself why Arthmoor say the same. Maybe because it true?

Arthmoor also says this:

"The only real harm is when you start removing mods from the load order. The game was never designed to allow that to be done cleanly, and it doesn't always mean only scripted mods either."

[Myst42]

Just now, Grey Cloud said:

Arthmoor also says this:

"The only real harm is when you start removing mods from the load order. The game was never designed to allow that to be done cleanly, and it doesn't always mean only scripted mods either."

Removing mods from the load order can be potentially harmful as it has been said before ITT, but it is not related to changing the load order.

it is related with the fact that the game "bakes" active scripts into the savegame, with all their properties. So if you load a game that had a baked script pointing to properties of a plugin file that is no longer active, the script will find nothing but missing references and will keep trying to work but find that it cant. As for the "it doesn't always mean only scripted mods either" I'm not sure what cases is Arthmoor referring to, but he's still talking about the removal of mods, which is different from changing load order.

That is why things like Save Cleaner and Re-Saver exist. To "remove orphan scripts" from mods that are no longer there.

 

As for "deleted references" upon changing load order. There is no such thing.

As I already explained and demonstrated a few posts back, the game is perfectly capable of locating any reference by mod name and automatically assigning a new ID if the load order was changed.

And it doesnt care about the "conflict" because "conflict" means 2 or more of the same NATIVE IDs exist in more than one mod, and in that case, the game will use the one that gets loaded last. And then, Override forms work in a similar way, as the last one loaded will be the one functioning, except in this case, the ID code will belong to the native form found in the master file.

But in none of this cases there is such a thing as a "deleted reference". The game retrieves forms by mod name, and then assigns starting ID index. Always.

 

Another interesting way to understand IDs, is that we're fooled into thinking they have 8 characters, but they dont. The actual core of any ID only has 6 characters (whoah, look at that!, that's why it's call a hexadecimal code!), and the first 2 are assigned by the load order itsef, and after it retrieved the mod names.

It doesn't really matter what the first 2 are. The game always knows and adapts to those first 2.

So if IE, an ID is B700KLH6, and we see another mod with 8C00KLH6, those are not different IDs those are duplicate IDs. They are the exact same code, and will conflict. And no matter what those first 2 characters change to, they will ALWAYS be the same ID which is  actually just "00KLH6".

[Nazzzgul666]

2 hours ago, Myst42 said:

So if IE, an ID is B700KLH6, and we see another mod with 8C00KLH6, those are not different IDs those are duplicate IDs. They are the exact same code, and will conflict. And no matter what those first 2 characters change to, they will ALWAYS be the same ID which is  actually just "00KLH6".

Why do i have to use the first two characters when adding items via console then?

[yatol]

2 hours ago, Myst42 said:

And it doesnt care about the "conflict" because "conflict" means 2 or more of the same NATIVE IDs exist in more than one mod, and in that case, the game will use the one that gets loaded last.

and that's supposed to not be a problem?

 

3dnpc edit some navmesh for npc to find the mod stuff

mod x add a tree in town, and it edit the navmesh for npc to not walk into the tree

 

mod x under 3dnpc, ctd (3dnpc navmesh edits aren't in mod x)

 

 

 

[Myst42]

Just now, yatol said:

and that's supposed to not be a problem?

 

3dnpc edit some navmesh for npc to find the mod stuff

mod x add a tree in town, and it edit the navmesh for npc to not walk into the tree

 

mod x under 3dnpc, ctd (3dnpc navmesh edits aren't in mod x)

I dont understand your post. The navmesh... where is it exactly?

First you say navmesh exists in 3dnpc and in mod x

Then you say the navmesh only exists in 3dnpc and not in modx?

 

If it exists in both mods, you have a true ID conflict

And what will happen there is that the navmesh that loads last will be used. Even if there is a tree in the middle of it and NPCs bump into it.

 

If it only exists in one mod, it will still be used regardless of load order because the game will find it.

If 3dnpc wants to find the navmesh, and 3dnpc does contain an edit to it, it will use it, especially if mod X's tweak loads before.

If mod x wants to use the navmesh when loaded before 3dnpc, it will use the navmesh from 3dnpc because it loaded last and the game found it.

 

Now, making a mod pointing to a reference that only exists in another mod, is called dependency, and it needs a master, in which case the game would need mod x to be dependent on 3dnpc or else it can't use its forms.

When dependency exists, mod managers know the correct load order is master first, child later, but that is not an issue caused by changing load order, it's simply wrong ordering, and it actually gets fixed by changing the load order mid-game and setting it to the correct one.

 

Stuff will always find the forms wherever they are loaded, and none of this implies anywhere the possibility of "ReferenceIDs getting deleted by load order change"

As long as a mod has the navmesh somewhere, the game will find it, and use the last one.

 

Unless I'm missing something here and you're suggesting the navmesh system is some sort of a "third engine" to the game besides the plugin one and papyrus. If navmesh data somehow gets baked into the savegame, by mod order data or something, it would make sense, but as far as I know, navmeshes are still only regular references just like any other contained inside plugin files. And as long as it exists within a mod, it will be found.

 

Just now, Nazzzgul666 said:

Why do i have to use the first two characters when adding items via console then?

Because as I explained, the game uses the last form it considers native to a mod.

Wherever an item exists, it's the adress to that item.

The first 2 digits are that address after being retrieved by the game by mod name.

If you once used B700KLH6 to get... I dunno, a sword from Mod X, and you saved, then midgame you decided to change the load order and try again, just type "help [yoursword]" in the console and you'll see how the new ID of the sword is now 8C00KLH6

The address changed, but the core code did not.

The game needs the digits because they tell it it's retrieving your sword from the mod you want because it exists there. The sword is modded and exists in your custom mod, not in say, "Skyrim.esm". If you look for the sword in Skyrim.esm it will not find it.

 

....

It just occurred to me a strange case that might actually be the closer to what some people are suggesting

When a native form exists in 2 mods with the same ID.

In this case, it will of couse, be assigned a different address, simultaneously , and I think what happens here is that a duplicate form exists.

If the same sword is native to 2 mods, "help" code will retrieve both IDs iirc, whch means the sword is duplicate in game too.

Yet once again, this is not a problem upon altering load order, because both forms become independent of one another.

Whatever mod seeks to retrieve the sword by its own mechanics, will retrieve its own sword, not the other mod's.

And the only way to make these both mods actually connected, is to establish a dependency link between them.

Still no "deleted references" in this tale either.

 

Finally, I think what I'm trying to say here is...

A duplicate native ID is not a conflict, it's 2 separate mods instead

Only overwrite IDs can conflict, and these only exist if there is dependency, where dependency meanst the form has to exist somewhere. As long as form exists, it will be found. As for overwrites, it's always the last one that gets used.

[yatol]

1 hour ago, Myst42 said:

I dont understand your post. The navmesh... where is it exactly?

First you say navmesh exists in 3dnpc and in mod x

Then you say the navmesh only exists in 3dnpc and not in modx?

 

so much for the "experts"...

 

mod 1 put a hole on the road

that mod add that hole to that cell navmesh, for npc to avoid it

 

mod 2 add a house nearby, that house have a door that lead to the house interior, in the same area as mod 1

that mod add that door to that cell navmesh, for the game to know where the door send you

 

mod 2 win the load order, npc that walk on the road fall in the hole

mod 1 win the load order, ctd (there's no destination in the navmesh for that door)

 

 

 

[Myst42]

Just now, yatol said:

so much for the "experts"...

 

mod 1 put a hole on the road

that mod add that hole to that cell navmesh, for npc to avoid it

 

mod 2 add a house nearby, that house have a door that lead to the house interior, in the same area as mod 1

that mod add that door to that cell navmesh, for the game to know where the door send you

 

mod 2 win the load order, npc that walk on the road fall in the hole

mod 1 win the load order, ctd (there's no destination in the navmesh for that door)

 

You're still not explaining where does this navmesh exist as a native form. Skyrim.esm, Mod1, Mod2, Both...?

I imagine this is the only ID code that comes directly from Skyrim.esm you're talking about.

It's an override ID generating a genuine conflict between two mods, or are you talking about 2 separate native forms of navmesh coexisting in the same cell? Because if they are overrides, conflict gets resolved by last load, and if they aren't, then it's just 2 separate mods.

Where is the conflict you suggest?

 

In fact, apparently, this hypothetic scenario has nothing to do with ID conflicts, you're talking about tweaks made to a cell.

 

If Mod2(House) loads last, there will be a house for NPCs to enter/bump into, depending on what navmesh setting is running things here. Presumably, the one that tells NPCs to enter, will be the last one in this case cause house+navmesh edits are both a system that a modder designed to function as a pack, because it makes no sense to tweak navmeshes without a house to enter, or make a house without AI tweaks to function.

If Mod1(Hole) loads last, there will still be a house where the hole will also be because cells load things from the result of a combination of mods.

It's exactly the reason why people can add lots of gear chests and whatever to Whiterun, and in game, you will find all of them. Cells place objects by throwing everything from every mod into them, even if it's overlapped, and you can find trees clipping through houses and weird stuff...

The door will still exist, as well as the cell it leads to. Only possble screw up is that the house is floating because the terrain is using the shape from the hole mod.

 

As for the bumping/falling, it will still depend on what form of the AI is running last.

I presume this navmesh setting is the same override ID that exists in the cell in question, tweaked by both mods, and native to the mod that created the cell in the first place, generating an overlap conflict, on the navmesh's ID.

That being the case, one design of the navmesh will tell NPCs to try to enter the house, and the other, to avoid the hole. Case stands. Whatever override ID loads last, that one will be used, always.

Changing load order mid-game has no such effect as "destroying the navmesh" much less an entire cell, or its placed references. It only determines whether NPCs will try to enter the house or avoid the place. No CTDs.

Also this scenario is forgetting the most  basic rule of this whole deal. If a mod has it, it will exist. The door and house can't "magically disappear" as references just because the load order changed. They can be disabled, or relocated, but if a mod has them, they exist.

 

And I'd recommend to calm down with the ironies about "experts" here cause they're rude.

 

We're supposed to be talking here, and if anyone can find a single convincing argument to why "changing the load order mid-game can break games" I'd like to know about it, since in all these years of messing with mods, I've never seen a single indication that something as catastrophic as "deleted references" happens when changing load order.

 

EDIT:

Come to think about it... I can think of ONE case where things could get complicated...

And that is, if a mod deletes a reference as a tweak.

Adding things can never, ever cause any problem, but making changes on a masterfile where you actually delete a reference could be complex.

But the only way this can work, is if the deleting mod, erases something that a mod loaded earlier wants to use, and once again no. This will not only cause problems upon "changing load order mid game" this will probably cause issues right from the start because it would be a WRONG load order situation, that can only get fixed by changing the load order to something that says those references are not deleted, that loads after the delinquent mod.

[yatol]

40 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

You're still not explaining where does the navmesh exist as a native form. Skyrim.esm, Mod1, Mod2, Both...?

It's an override ID generating a genuine conflict between two mods, or are you talking about 2 separate native forms of navmesh coexisting in the same cell?

 

how about you go read what a navmesh is in crap kit site?

https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=Category:Navmesh

 

Quote

Navmeshes represent the actual area that Actors can walk on. A Navmesh consists of a list of triangles (composed of verts and edges), derived data such as slope, and additional information like cover, preferred paths, and water areas. Navmeshes allows the AI to build better and more efficient paths based on data added to the Navmesh in the Editor or generated dynamically at runtime.

strange description for the navigation map, where you can walk, where you can swim, where you can't get, where you are send to destination x

you add something in tamriel? it's that cell navmesh from skyrim.esm you edit

 

and if i tell you a destination missing from the navmesh is a ctd, it's a ctd

you ctd when the game have no idea how to load something (not the same as not finding a mesh or a record, empty leveled list, game can't pick anything from it -> ctd, armor xxyyyyy is overwrite by npc xxyyyyyy, npc have no armor model -> ctd, dialog is start on npc xxyyyyy, there's no npc xxyyyyyy here -> ctd)

 

[Myst42]

Just now, yatol said:

how about you go read what a navmesh is in crap kit site? 

https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=Category:Navmesh

How about you try to civilizedly explain why is it you believe navmeshes somehow get baked into the save enough for the game to not be able to recognize a new setting if it changed the load order mid-game?

So you're saying navmesh tweaks have permanent ID codes is that it?

And that if you start a game with a certain navmesh setting, then go out and change load order, then the new navmesh setting can't find its references because it baked the old ones into the save?

So basically, you're saying most mods that change land, cannot ever be moved because once they're baked, that's it, right?

This is in other words, a literal third engine to the save mechanic, besides normal CK references and Papyrus.

 

If that is not what you're saying, then it still makes no sense that this has anything to do with changing load order mid-game and not with a simple load order issue instead. If you load the wrong tweaks last, of course things are gonna look weird, the only solution to it, is getting the correct load order, making sure the correct tweaks load last.

I get that using a wrong navmesh setting may cause stuff to point to non-existant stuff, but how is this mid-game-load-order-change's fault and not something that gets fixed by precisely getting the correct load order restored resolving overwrite conflicts, just like any normal load order issue?

 

So far, everything I've found on navmesh-related CTD, relates to deleted references, which is something done by mods.

You know what does not delete references? Changing load order mid game.

Having a delinquent plugin that deleted some stuff, then having another mod that needed a reference but found it was deleted, surely can cause CTD, but it has literally nothing to to with changing load order mid game. It's a load order issue, and more specifically, a mod interaction issue.

 

Now if mod A wants a navmesh reference that mod B deleted, it will never work unless you have a way to make sure the last change to the navmesh, is that it exists instead of being flagged as deleted. But then again, what has any of this have to do with changing order mid-game and not being an actual mod conflict instead?

For most cases, It either works from the start, given the correct order and compatibility, or it never worked at all.

Just now, yatol said:

ctd, armor xxyyyyy is overwrite by npc xxyyyyyy, npc have no armor model

And I already wrote about how overrides can only exist in a master-child relationship between plugin files, or else, there is no conflict, but duplicate, separate native IDs instead. It is perfectly possible to have a sword native to mod A, and, NPC native to mod B, with the same ID code, because this is where index address comes in handy in assigning different IDs to each. If you load both mods with the CK, it will read the duplicated ID as a different one by index, provided their editor's name is different. If editor's name is the same, as well as ID code, and both forms are not an overwrite, but native to their respective mods, it will label one of them DUPLICATE, and renumber its ID. Because this is how the system treats replicated IDs when they are native to their own stuff. As DUPLICATES, not reference conflicts.

Any modder who would dare to overwrite an armor form ID with NPC form, assuming such a thing is even possible (which is probably not), would be simply insane.

[yatol]

8 hours ago, Myst42 said:

So far, everything I've found on navmesh-related CTD, relates to deleted references, which is something done by mods. 

 

instead of writing a lot of useless stuff, why don't you test yourself?

 

is it that hard to load load tesedit to copy paste a navmesh overwrite by dawnguard in ctd.esp, and go there in game to.... ctd

8 hours ago, Myst42 said:

So far, everything I've found on navmesh-related CTD, relates to deleted references, which is something done by mods. 

 

really? copy pasting a skyrim navmesh in ctd.esp that don't have dawnguard as master, is supposed to delete references from dawnguard?

 

 

[RW311]

"Again, excuse me, but is IMPOSIBLE have a deleted ID or a changed ID when you have a CONFLICT because the conflict appear ONLY when two mods change the SAME record with the SAME ID."

 

deleted or missing reference problem has been around since fo3 , it's not hard to create these and I saw several in one mod when looking to help someone fix a problem just recently

You may eventually find these and hopefully stop saying things can never happen or are impossible.

 

 

"The only problem can happend when the stored data inside the savegame is INCOMPATIBLE with the new data that come from the ESP.."

 

Here is a much improved version of your title paragraph instead of  the never can cause a problem because that statement is causing a problem.

[Myst42]

Just now, yatol said:

instead of writing a lot of useless stuff, why don't you test yourself?

 

is it that hard to load load tesedit to copy paste a navmesh overwrite by dawnguard in ctd.esp, and go there in game to.... ctd

really? copy pasting a skyrim navmesh in ctd.esp that don't have dawnguard as master, is supposed to delete references from dawnguard?

How is that a MID GAME LOAD ORDER CHANGE related issue and not a LOAD ORDER/INCOMPATIBILITY ISSUE?

How is that a procedure's fault and not the mod itself's fault?

If a mod without Dawnguard tweaks, somehow manages to "overwrite" Dawnguard causing an INCOMPATIBILITY issue, and potential CTD, that is a LOAD ORDER ISSUE, and it means the mod that "overwrites" Dawnguard should NEVER, EVER be loaded after Dawnguard. Ever.

It doesn't matter if you changed the load order before starting a new game or after making a save, if the delinquent plugin loads after Dawnguard, it will crash, but not because of mid game changes, it would be because of incompatibility and wrong load order instead.

 

The mere premise that this scenario needs a "ctd.esp" to function means ctd.esp is a delinquent mod, a badly designed one that should never be on a load list in the first place because it's incompatible with other stuff, and that a correct load order, might lessen its impact on the game, but any other setting will allow the mod to cause issues.

 

And I'm not the one who wants to prove changing load order MID GAME, is a cause of CTD here, besides I barely understand your writing, so I'm still not sure what exactly is your theory.

If it's so simple as you say, why dont you simply make the experiment, post it with clear instructions on how to get CTD, and I'll test it myself with pics, we'll save a lot of "useless stuff".

I'll start a game with it, get the correct load order, install it, hopefully not CTD, assuming your "ctd.esp" is even possible to have on a modlist in the first place, then save, change load order, save again to get a "corrupt save" and get CTD after, change the load order again to restore it to non-CTD land, and... also get CTD because the save is now corrupt somehow according to your reasoning?

 

----------

 

To be honest, I feel this discusson needs to make a clear difference because people are getting heavily confused by 2 separate items here.

 

No one is saying, a wrong load order can't cause issues because it can.

If you were to change load order from a correct setting to a wrong one, stuff can and will get messed up

 

That is not the same as blaming the mid game procedure for the issues

A correct load order will always work, no matter where people achieves it, either if they started the game with one, or were total noobs, when they started, and someone told them to run LOOT a couple of saves later to fix their LO.

An incorrect load order will also always succeed in messing things up, regardless of if it happend at the start or later.

A conflictive plugin, causing an aberrant behavior in records will always create conflict, no matter when you decide to change load order.

 

(Incompatibility/Wrong Load Order) =/= (Changing Load Order)

[yatol]

23 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

How is that a MID GAME LOAD ORDER CHANGE related issue and not a LOAD ORDER/INCOMPATIBILITY ISSUE?

How is that a procedure's fault and not the mod itself's fault?

 

why don't you read the post on page 1 if you want to find out how you can create ctd zone just by moving one mod under another

i am not here to teach you how skyrim records work... fail how much you want, i don't care

 

 

24 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

 

If it's so simple as you say, why dont you simply make the experiment, post it with clear instructions on how to get CTD, and I'll test it myself with pics, we'll save a lot of "useless stuff".

 

you are a lost cause if you don't even understand what i am talking about

go mess with that stuff instead of talking about it, and you will see for yourself what can and what can't be done

[Myst42]

Just now, yatol said:

why don't you read the post on page 1 if you want to find out how you can create ctd zone just by moving one mod under another

i am not here to teach you how skyrim records work... fail how much you want, i don't care

 

you are a lost cause if you don't even understand what i am talking about

go mess with that stuff instead of talking about it, and you will see for yourself what can and what can't be done

So you can't properly explain your point, you can't defend your argument, whatever that is, and you simply dont have the patience to explain lowlife plebs like me how your mastery of modding works, and you're so certain about your claims that everyone is just supposed to take your word for it because you say so?

 

Wow.

 

If you're gonna argue that a certain thing is "mid games LO change's fault" and not  incompatibility/wrong LO instead, you should define well what your agrument is, instead of vaguely making statements about stuff that is barely consistent in your posts, because I assure, you I'm not the only one who can't make sense of your mythical "CTD after rearrangement" bug that "bakes navmeshes" to a save.

You have failed many times over in making a consistent case on how to recreate your CTD in a way that is actually mid-game LO change's fault, and not wrong load order issue.

If you can't properly explain how to recreate it, and you "dont have the patience to teach plebs" Then I guess there's nothing more to talk about.

 

I guess that's the kind of disposition of people who simply can't be talked to.

And here I thought, people was able to discuss things civilizedly

 

And for the record, this:

Just now, yatol said:

Is a WRONG LOAD ORDER situation

Not something that gets "baked into a save"

The fix to whatever issues that causes, is simply moving Skyrim.esm back to slot 00

[GenioMaestro]

2 hours ago, yatol said:

why don't you read the post on page 1 if you want to find out how you can create ctd zone just by moving one mod under another

i am not here to teach you how skyrim records work... fail how much you want, i don't care

 

 

you are a lost cause if you don't even understand what i am talking about

go mess with that stuff instead of talking about it, and you will see for yourself what can and what can't be done

I do not know HOW get a CTD moving the load order. If you can explain it we can be very gratefull.

 

Following yours instructions, i make a load order as you say:

Spoiler

Update.esm
Dawnguard.esm
HearthFires.esm
Dragonborn.esm
Skyrim.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
SkyUI.esp
FNIS.esp
Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp

 

Start a new game and my skse.log say this:

Spoiler

Saving mod list:
    (0)    Skyrim.esm
    (1)    Update.esm
    (2)    Dawnguard.esm
    (3)    HearthFires.esm
    (4)    Dragonborn.esm
    (5)    Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
    (6)    SkyUI.esp
    (7)    FNIS.esp
    (8)    Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp

 

Seems that the game know that MUST load Skyrim.esm before load any mod that depend from it. 

 

I go a bit more far and repeat an older test. Order my plugings in pure ALFABETICAL order:

Spoiler

Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
Dawnguard.esm
Dragonborn.esm
FNIS.esp
HearthFires.esm
Skyrim.esm
SkyUI.esp
Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
Update.esm

 

And my skse.log say:

Spoiler

Saving mod list:
    (0)    Skyrim.esm
    (1)    Update.esm
    (2)    Dawnguard.esm
    (3)    Dragonborn.esm
    (4)    HearthFires.esm
    (5)    Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
    (6)    Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
    (7)    FNIS.esp
    (8)    SkyUI.esp

 

Seems that the game know that MUST load Update.esm before before load any other mod. 

 

You can verify the order of the plugings inside the automatic savegame created by Alternate Start:

Spoiler

 

Of course, i not exit the alternate start cell because i know that the game works with that load order.

 

You can make your own test in your own game for verify the things that i say.

[GenioMaestro]

7 hours ago, RW311 said:

deleted or missing reference problem has been around since fo3 , it's not hard to create these and I saw several in one mod when looking to help someone fix a problem just recently

You may eventually find these and hopefully stop saying things can never happen or are impossible.

If you can provide me with the name or link to the problematic modification, I can investigate it. It seems that you talk about a problem caused by a bad mod and the problem is related exclusively to that mod.

The problem is very limited and is due to a single mod that has "deleted or missing reference" and it seems that it can cause serious problems when moving in the loading order.
In the same way, if the head disappears, it is another problem caused by a specific mod that uses a special head model.

If we start discussing all the specific problems we can have with all the mods, we will never finish. Each user has a different list and the combinations are endless. The possible problems are endless.

 

What I am saying is, in Arthmoor words, Changing load order mid-game is harmless. and It's not going to harm your save because changing the loading order does not give any problem.

It is not necessary to have a mod in a specific position of the loading order.

The mods do not break by moving them in the loading order.
The norm established by the community, and i copy from the post #3, 

"don't change load order mid-playthrough" dictum

this is the normal recommended practice throughout the entire Skyrim/Fallout modding community, and has been for years

has no fundament.

 

Of course, in specific cases, certain specific modifications can give problems. But that only happens when the mod is wrong and has problems or causes problems. And it is a problem of a mod.

 

The fact that a specific mod breaks or generates problems when moving within the load order is a clear indicator that this mod has a problem. Because that does not happen with all the mods.

 

We can not say: ONE of the nexus mods gives problems when I move it in the loading order and that means I can not move any mod.

 

No sir, because it is the opposite.

 

We must say: I can move any mod to any position except THIS mod because it has problems.

 

Is it so hard to understand?

[yatol]

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

I do not know HOW get a CTD moving the load order. If you can explain it we can be very gratefull.

 

you want a quote from the page 1 of your topic you didn't bother reading?

 

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

Start a new game and my skse.log say this: 

  Hide contents Hide contents

Saving mod list:
    (0)    Skyrim.esm
    (1)    Update.esm
    (2)    Dawnguard.esm
    (3)    HearthFires.esm
    (4)    Dragonborn.esm
    (5)    Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
    (6)    SkyUI.esp
    (7)    FNIS.esp
    (8)    Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp

 

so you start a new game to check what happen when you

"Change the load order in the middle of the game", that's your topic title, you also forgot what your topic was about?

 

oh, isn't that alternate start? the mod the ones that can't play the helgen start have to use^^

there's some topics in the technical section on what to do if you want to get safely to helgen

 

 

[yatol]

7 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

The fact that a specific mod breaks or generates problems when moving within the load order is a clear indicator that this mod has a problem. Because that does not happen with all the mods.

 

so you are saying 3dnpc have a problem?

some had a problem doing that mod quests?

beside the usual stupid mage that cast some fireballs on a target near the other npc, that turn hostile to stupid mage, and you are good for a reload

 

first ctd i saw was trying to leave winterhold college for the npc abducted north of there (conflict with northern encounter)

then when i tried the mod with the quest that start near riverwood (that mod dwemer dongeon is near 3dnpc tavern north of riften)

 

tamriel isn't small so to have 2 mods that add stuff to the same area....

well... the more of those mods you have, the bigger the chance to have it with the next one

and if all you do it's loading the game to take screenshot in a black cube... complicated to have problems doing that^^