Sexual Practices of Nirn

[Ernest Lemmingway]

After watching most of the lore videos of TES by Fudgemuppet on YouTube, along with Camel's videos for good measure, I began asking myself what the sexual practices, rites, and taboos of the Elder Scrolls races would be? How do their cultures influence their ideas of sex? Or their racial physiology and abilities? How has membership in the Empire changed their older attitudes? How do afflictions like lycanthropy or vampirism?

 

This is obviously an area of TES lore that is in desperate need of greater fleshing out and I hope to tap into the collective power of my fellow TES nerds to help. This is just based on what's known from the video games and novels, not from mods or other non-canon sources. Even if it's not explicitly mentioned, let's use the canon sources as inspiration since there's unlikely to ever be any official lore that contradicts what we come up with.

 

Morrowind gave us a pretty clear picture of Dunmer culture and society. As did The Real Barenziah in Daggerfall (the full texts added in the Unexpurgated Barenziah mod for Morrowind). From both of which we can deduce at least some of their native sexual practices and ideas.

 

Oblivion I'm less inclined to say offers much given the rather broad palette that Imperial culture is assembled from. Obviously some aspects of real world Roman Empire sexual practices can be included. But not others like the ideas about women since they clearly weren't used in TES.

 

Skyrim obviously gives us Nord culture. Which is an odd mix of medieval Scandinavian and older Viking cultures. It also gives us a greater insight into orc culture and practices.

 

There's also things like the teachings of the individual Divines and even Daedric Princes to consider. None of which are as cut-and-dry as they might seem at first.

 

This a much more complex topic than folks might think and certainly more than one lemming can handle alone.

[Grey Cloud]

Warning: Pedantry Ahead.

7 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

Which is an odd mix of medieval Scandinavian and older Viking cultures

Vikings were mediaeval, circa 800-1000 CE.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

2 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Warning: Pedantry Ahead.

Vikings were mediaeval, circa 800-1000 CE.

Okay, Late Medieval. Or we could call the prior period Early Medieval.

[worik]

Well, we already know that the Nord don't count that much on romantic weddings...

So based on that I would say that the Nord culture pretty much sees a difference between

• sex with the purpose of creating a child
• sex for the fun of it

I wouldn't expect taboos with the Nords. I can't imagine taboos with the Nords. But regarding the inherent racism, I feel (and play) that "interracial" sex is frowned upon by many.

 

Aside from the race, we have the unifying Aedra and Daedra. Unifying in the meaning that their commandments rule everybody equally, regardless of the race.

 

Edit: bad wording corrected

[Grey Cloud]

Mediaeval runs from approx 500 CE (Fall of Western Roman Empire) to 1500 CE (printing press and a couple of other things).

[Ernest Lemmingway]

1 hour ago, worik said:

Well, we already know that the Nord don't count that much on romantic weddings...

So based on that I would say that the Nord culture pretty much sees a difference between

• sex with the purpose of creating a child
• sex for the fun of it

I wouldn't expect taboos with the Nords, but regarding the inherent racism, I feel (and play) that "interracial" sex is frowned upon by many.

 

Aside from the race, we have the unifying Aedra and Daedra. Unifying in the meaning that their commandments rule everybody equally, regardless of the race.

What do you mean by not expecting taboos?

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

Mediaeval runs from approx 500 CE (Fall of Western Roman Empire) to 1500 CE (printing press and a couple of other things).

Point taken. Let's not derail this thread.

[karlpaws]

A few, probably random and disconnected points...

 

I'm not sure Nords are against other races living in their own areas so maybe they're more organizationally OCD? (though they're not fond of elves for reasons - and would anti - Dunmer animosity due to neighboring wars, magic usage, and now refugee status, be equal of the recent Altmer animosity for Empire toppling and Talos banning? and they'd rather orcs not be living in Skyrim, as long as the Redguards stayed home, would they have any issues?)

 

If males and females are seen more equal in terms of roles and abilities, does that lead to a looser or stricter sense of sexual morality? I'd guess looser.  Also, how much is that historically accurate via the other games, vs Nord sense (and this would be part of what you're asking... is Olfina's attitude reflected in High Rock, Hammerfall, Vaardenfall or Cyrodil).

 

Do women own property and run businesses in other provinces? Is that truly canon or just a reflection of our modern, enlightened view of gender roles.  As one of the lore videos mentioned, Nirn seems to have regressed magically (and possibly technologically if the lack of understanding Dwemer machines goes) from eras past.

 

I thought I read that humans and merfolk cannot crossbreed (though if that's how Breton's came about, maybe the racial lines have diverged enough that it isn't possible) would a lack of interbreeding lessen the stigma?  As worik said, sex for fun vs sex for procreation.

 

Is the lack of brothels in game a rating issue or a game canon morality issue? There was a red light area in one town in one of the last 3 games, implying that it was considered possible by the game developers but not at all a focal point.  Is that canon or signs of a stricter cultural attitude toward sex?

 

In the lore videos, they sometimes put a lot of focus on things I'd consider gameplay based shortcuts or obvious errors.  I don't remember enough of Oblivion, much less Morrowind, to say how many leaders were without spouses as half the Skyrim jarls are, or how many shopkeepers are living with siblings instead of being married with 3-5 kids being raised to take over the family business. (is that just because they devs didnt want the needed horde of kids running around or some other canon reason?)

 

In past Earth history, lineage of children was jealously controlled by some as they didn't want to be responsible for bastard children. We don't really see peasants that much in Skyrim and generally not as large families, just a single hired hand here or there.  If nearly anyone can get the money to start a lumber mill (but not sell it when things turn sour - Kynesgrove; husband runs off - Heartood; bears become your primary competitor...) would inheritance matter as much? Or, if your mill is owned by the jarl and you have nothing to really pass down...

 

Might also have to ask how knowledgeable people really are of diseases and their sources, and the effectiveness and cost of treatments.  While the player character can be instantly cured by using a shrine, other NPC dialogue seems to imply that not everyone gets a blessing when praying at a shrine, so apothecaries would be more important.  If there is a decent knowledge of sexual diseases and cures can be had with effectiveness, that could lead to a greater increase in recreational sex. 

 

out of ideas, for now

[Seijin8]

2 hours ago, karlpaws said:

I thought I read that humans and merfolk cannot crossbreed

Completely inaccurate.  All man and mer races in Elder Scrolls lore can interbreed.  The race of the child invariably matches the race of the mother.

[worik]

7 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

What do you mean by not expecting taboos?

Bad wording on my side. I can't "imagine" could be a better phrase. ?

Just that "interracial" thing sounds plausible to me, but only within a certain group among the Nords. Not every Nord is a stupid racist.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

9 hours ago, worik said:

Bad wording on my side. I can't "imagine" could be a better phrase. ?

Just that "interracial" thing sounds plausible to me, but only within a certain group among the Nords. Not every Nord is a stupid racist.

Ah. That makes more sense.

 

Also let's consider the role of things like incest not being taboo within noble/royal families to "preserve the purity of the bloodline." Marriage/mating rituals, (in)fidelity, sexual politics, unique STDs, everything. This is supposed to be about all (well, most) of the sexual practices of Nirn.

[karlpaws]

11 hours ago, Seijin8 said:

Completely inaccurate.  All man and mer races in Elder Scrolls lore can interbreed.  The race of the child invariably matches the race of the mother.

That sounds familiar. maybe it was just no halfbreeds.  That would still lead to the same potential lack of taboo against interracial encounters though, if no one could really prove you did.

 

1 hour ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

Ah. That makes more sense.

 

Also let's consider the role of things like incest not being taboo within noble/royal families to "preserve the purity of the bloodline." Marriage/mating rituals, (in)fidelity, sexual politics, unique STDs, everything. This is supposed to be about all (well, most) of the sexual practices of Nirn.

I don't remember the dunmer royal house situation right now, but the nords do not have a royal feel to their jarls (to me at least).  While the throne does seem to pass from parent to child, it feels more like general inheritance and that the child is trained for the role more than they were born to it. At least that's what Ravencrone says.

 

Marriage falls into one of those "gameplay shortcuts" and I think the simplicity of the wedding shouldn't be taken completely as canon. Also, it is really odd that in a medieval setting where most travel will be by foot, people would have to travel to one city to get married. Then again, Bolli is able to ship his fish completely across the province to another land locked capital for sale, when the more nearby, and river connected city, isn't able to beat him out on freshness and price (due to lower transport costs?)  Same for the beer monopoly and other such trade wars. Things would be produced locally and while local bandits raiding local farms makes sense as people driven to crime with the loss of their own livelihood in the war or deserters/draft dodgers look for ilicit means to support themselves... I guess there should be a lot more rape going on in the outlying farms as well, though that doesn't seem to be mentioned.

 

In a lot of cases there doesn't seem to be many facts we can use to figure out how they think. Balgruuf has 3 kids, the largest family, though he doesn't have a wife. Idgrod has a husband, two kids and is a crone so is presumably too old to have more. Korir and Thaena in Winterhold are possibly young enough they're working on a second and Elisif would be too young to have a first, probably. Ditto Siddgeir who is probably too busy living it up to have a wife yet (and with no extraneous NPCs in most towns, I'm not surprised there are no court fillies trying to tempt him).  Do we assume that there are more NPCs around, especially more kids, or is that inbreeding factor a much larger issue? Will Idgrod the younger visit Balgruuf while Joric is at the temple to get knocked up, since the jarl there is obviously randy enough to do the job? Is Nelkir old enough to take as a husband since Frodnar is the heir apparent?

 

 

[Jexsam]

On 3/24/2019 at 1:24 PM, karlpaws said:

That sounds familiar. maybe it was just no halfbreeds.

It's not quite that simple, either.  In a single generation, the offspring for all intents and purposes is the race of the mother.  But the in-game book Racial Phylogeny does say that some minor traits can be inherited from the father.  A child born to a Nord mother and Altmer father might have a slightly sharper facial structure, though perhaps not outstandingly so.

 

However, if we take the lore on the origins of the Bretons as biological fact, then what we get is the strong implication that repeated interbreeding can, over time, create "spin-off" races.  Not true half-breeds, but unique new peoples among whom the findings in Racial Phylogeny will hold true.  Bretons are the end result of continued interbreeding between ancient Aldmer and the earliest Nedes, ancestors of the Altmer and Nords respectively.  I swear I've seen it written that Bosmer are the "other half" of this interbreeding - it would sort of make sense given the fact of the offspring sharing the mother's race that one strongly elven and one strongly human group would emerge from such interbreeding - but I can't find it on UESP, so that's either old/outmoded information or I'm misremembering entirely.

 

Racial Phylogeny doesn't really touch on Orcs or other beast races IIRC, but we know from Oblivion's Grey Prince that at the very least, an otherwise human (Imperial specifically) vampire can breed with an orc.  And, again as Racial Phylogeny suggested, he did inherit a physical trait from his father - he's pale as fuck.  That said, we don't see his mother, so we can't say with 100% certainty that his paleness isn't at least somewhat from her, but the relevant bit is humans and orcs can breed.

 

tl;dr Bretons are a result of interbreeding between men and mer and have become their own race so while true halfbreeds aren't a thing, races can mix into new ones with enough time.

[karlpaws]

12 hours ago, Jexsam said:

It's not quite that simple, either.  In a single generation, the offspring for all intents and purposes is the race of the mother.  But the in-game book Racial Phylogeny does say that some minor traits can be inherited from the father. 

 

tl;dr Bretons are a result of interbreeding between men and mer and have become their own race so while true halfbreeds aren't a thing, races can mix into new ones with enough time.

I think I knew that about the Bretons, which is why I was confused.  I wonder if some grand interbreeding scheme would ever be attempted to produce super people.  Or to return to topic, would individuals seek out someone else thinking to give their kid(s) a leg up in the world with some trait they think would be advantageous.

[karlpaws]

Came across a conversation that Viola can have with Captain Lonely-gale and it seemed fitting for this....

 

She mentions hearing an ancient nord proverb, that the best way to get over the loss of a lover is to take a new one.  He counters with having lost his wife, not a lover and turns down her offer to fill in.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

This topic hasn't garnered the discussion I'd hoped. So I've opened up the rules. It's not like Bugthesda is going to counter anything we come up with.

 

If you've ever played Morrowind, then you'll know how much the Dunmer despise necromancy. Which makes me wonder what a truly antinomian dark elf would get up to? The desire to rebel against the values of society can be extremely strong. Necromancers can get their jollies just by raising the dead and summoning ghosts, but as we saw with Arondil in Skyrim, some go a step (or more) further than just using the dead as labor or guardians.

 

There's also the Dunmeri tradition of ancestor worship. In a world where your ancestors can return as ghosts or something more corporeal, what happens if that ancestor was especially lascivious in life? And what if the worshipful Dunmer is of an equally lustful bent? Do the Dunmer consider such "placation" disgusting or dishonorable or do they fulfill it as they would any other wish from their ancestors?

 

Morrowind (the province and the game) also has (had?) legalized slavery. Argonians and Khajiit were the most common races to be enslaved, but other races and even other Dunmer could wind up as slaves due to debt or criminal sentencing. In one of the huts in the Dren Plantation in the game is an Imperial male along with a Khajiit female, the latter a slave while the former is an enforcer for House Dren. Clearly some "liberties" were taken with slaves and such privileges were given to ranking members of the Great Houses as well.

 

That leads to the question of what happened if one party became pregnant? In TES lore the child takes the race of the mother, so impregnated female slaves wouldn't cause that much of an issue. But what if a male slave impregnates a free woman, especially a member of a House? TES isn't nearly as patriarchal as real world history, so any consequences wouldn't be based on sexism so much as politics and societal views. She might abort or even give birth to the child, depending on her personal views. Or she might be cast out for "sullying the bloodline" with a slave, even if she aborts the child.

 

The unique item Boethiah's Pillow Book (there's a mod by AlienSlof on the Morrowind Nexus to flesh it out better) indicates that porn exists among the Dunmer and likely the other races of Tamriel as well. The same is true of the miniature statues of Dibella in Skyrim. While the statues are displayed openly, the book was hidden so there's a clear divide between "art" and "pornography" among the races.

 

On the topic of Boethiah and their (hermaphrodite Daedric Prince) pillow book, what's changed socially among the Dunmer since the False (Almsivi) Tribunal was destroyed/disappeared and the Anticipations (True Tribunal) was reinstated? Sex isn't Boethiah's sphere, but it is the sphere of Mephala, another member of the Anticipations. She is the goddess of both subtle and violent aspects of her sphere; regarding sex, courtship/orgy (taken from Vivec and Mephala). Would sex be a form of worship among the Dunmer now? Is sex and sexuality more openly tolerated among them? Remember that Solstheim is still reeling from the eruption of Red Mountain and its people are more concerned with survival, so it's not a good example of how the Dunmer worship in the Fourth Era.

 

The ascension of a hermaphroditic god wouldn't be new to the Dunmer. Vivec was a hermaphrodite before s/he disappeared. So are hermaphrodites considered blessed by the Dunmer as being closer to a god? Would they hold a special position in Vivec's/Boethiah's clergy?

[karlpaws]

2 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

On the topic of Boethiah and their (hermaphrodite Daedric Prince) pillow book

I'll have to think on the rest of this later, but in regards to the sex of a daedric prince or lord, since the daedra aren't generally considered corporeal in the Mundus sense, they are not usually regarded as having a sex, as far as I understand it. Some always take the form of a male or female, but some do use both forms. I didn't picture that the form would have both sexual characteristics as just male and female variants. I'd think they'd look recognizably similar but more like brother/sister than some futa-fied mingling.

 

I'll have to double check, but I don't think sex as worship of Mephala is right either. Mephala is more about how to achieve ends, whether that is secret Murder, sex as seduction, betrayal of close friends, and other dark means.

 

FudgeMuppet had a video recently about origins of the Dunmer and the prophet Veloth that looks as the cultural chances of the Tribunal and Three Good Daedra/Anticipations/Reclamations/etc that was informative.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

On 4/14/2019 at 5:41 PM, karlpaws said:

I'll have to think on the rest of this later, but in regards to the sex of a daedric prince or lord, since the daedra aren't generally considered corporeal in the Mundus sense, they are not usually regarded as having a sex, as far as I understand it. Some always take the form of a male or female, but some do use both forms. I didn't picture that the form would have both sexual characteristics as just male and female variants. I'd think they'd look recognizably similar but more like brother/sister than some futa-fied mingling.

 

I'll have to double check, but I don't think sex as worship of Mephala is right either. Mephala is more about how to achieve ends, whether that is secret Murder, sex as seduction, betrayal of close friends, and other dark means.

 

FudgeMuppet had a video recently about origins of the Dunmer and the prophet Veloth that looks as the cultural chances of the Tribunal and Three Good Daedra/Anticipations/Reclamations/etc that was informative.

It's been mentioned in-game that Boethiah Mephala is hermaphroditic, which is actually important to her sphere since she appears as whatever gender most appeals to her chosen target. Or both at once if that works best.

 

Mortal interpretation is what matters. Especially in regards to the Dunmer religion. I quoted the in-game book Vivec and Mephala when I said how Mephala combines both courtship and orgy in regards to sex. That aspect of their character is not explored in-game and understandably so, but the simple fact that it gets mentioned at all in-game means there's more to it.

 

I've seen those videos. I was actually listening to them as I wrote. They actually covered Mephala herself in an older video rather than simply in regards to Veloth. And it isn't like FudgeMuppet could openly say much more than they did given YouTube is a Google company and Google's on another morality kick.

 

There's also the fact that the Dunmer Tribunal is heavily based on the Hindu Trimurti, of which many, many aspects were intersex beings. There are also philosophies regarding male and female existing in one being in Hinduism and it would be fitting that the Dunmer share similar views even if it's never explicitly discussed in-game. Otherwise neither Vivec nor Boethiah would be called out as being hermaphrodites since it wouldn't serve any purpose. This is why I supposed that hermaphrodites would be considered "blessed" by the Dunmer.

 

TES lore is so confusing and contradictory at times (Auriel/Akatosh, Dragon Breaks, etc.) that it makes my head hurt thinking about it. Which is why I'm hoping others will contribute their interpretations to help make some sense of it all. Especially in regards to the one topic Bethesda has been so afraid of even touching since Daggerfall. Or maybe it's Todd Howard who's afraid of it since the games stopped featuring things like nudity after he came on board. Female characters in Daggerfall actually had nipples on the inventory paper doll, and the image of Sanguine was that of him holding up a golden-skinned nude woman who looks an awful lot like the statues of Dibella.

[karlpaws]

51 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

It's been mentioned in-game that Boethiah is hermaphroditic, although s/he often takes on one gender or the other and rarely appears as truly hermaphroditic.

 

Mortal interpretation is what matters. Especially in regards to the Dunmer religion. I quoted the in-game book Vivec and Mephala when I said how Mephala combines both courtship and orgy in regards to sex. That aspect of their character is not explored in-game and understandably so, but the simple fact that it gets mentioned at all in-game means there's more to it.

Yeah, I'll have to read that. Too much I've forgotten.

51 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

I've seen those videos. I was actually listening to them as I wrote. They actually covered Mephala herself in an older video rather than simply in regards to Veloth and the. And it isn't like FudgeMuppet could openly say much more than they did given YouTube is a Google company and Google's on another morality kick.

They did a whole series on the individual powers, but I was just thinking of the last on Veloth. Haven't watched most of the daedric and aedric ones, but did see Malacath and Merida, and I think a couple others. Gonna be a limit on what they can talk about in a G/PG rated channel, Google aside.

51 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

There's also the fact that the Dunmer Tribunal is heavily based on the Hindu Trimurti, of which many, many aspects were intersex beings. There are also philosophies regarding male and female existing in one being in Hinduism and it would be fitting that the Dunmer share similar views even if it's never explicitly discussed in-game.

That's interesting. I haven't studied the various Hindu mythos and religion though I think it was a Chinese based.. Tao or Buddhism or something that had the concept of yin and yang, and that balance came from embracing male and female aspects. Hard and soft, fast and slow.

51 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

TES lore is so confusing and contradictory at times (Auriel/Akatosh, Dragon Breaks, etc.) that it makes my head hurt thinking about it.

While some of the lore types make great, entertaining videos about stuff I sometimes wonder if games makers do stuff on purpose either for flexibility or out of laziness they have to cover up and "Dragon Break" a story just so that something can be told the way the current administration wants to sell it. The last Fudgemuppet video I watched pointed out Morrowind lore did not mention a Dragon war at all, or that the Thuum was a dragon language while Skyrim kinda hinges on that fact.

 

 

---

 

Regarding the Dunmer and ancestor worship, if you revere your near ancestors (also brought up in the Velothi video) and not just the distant ones, you'd not be so keen on desecrating their bodies with necromancy.  Depending on the person's strength of belief, trying to be a rebel wouldn't be enough to make you raise a horny dead uncle or aunt so you can get your groove on. If the ancestor actually returned, a la the Spectral Assassin, I think conjugal approaches would be ok though that would probably depend on what condition and physical ability said ancestor had.

 

Brelyna Maryon doesn't seem to have many problems investigating Saarthal, though whether that's because its not a home of her ancestors or as she comments that "its old and full of dead things" that it doesn't scare her due to growing up in Morrowind.  Onmund though is uneasy and there is random comment the many nords have about the college digging there and they not being happy about it.

 

Arondil it seemed was killing women, which lead to some of his problems.  Just being a creep I think is what got him kicked out of town though. It didn't seem like he was having sex with the draugr versions of the failed experiments as much as the trapped ghosts he somewhat succeeded with. I don't know that anyone had any idea what he was doing, and why we would be sent to steal his journals is unknown to me, as I don't have any idea how anyone would know he had journals to steal, much less want to read them.

 

I think you have the right idea on slave fathers, though I'd add to the politics aspect that it would depend as much on the lady's standing in society as much as anything. A dunmer woman getting pregnant by her own slaves might be looked at oddly but ignored in a large town where she has economic power, ignored entirely if she was a rural plantation owner, or killed by her father if she's the daughter of a slave owner (see the Last Scabbard of Akrash).  Now, the book does not imply that the father would have killed his daughter, but then he never knew what was going on. It does say he considered her his property, the same as his sword and his slave, so he at least might have felt able to do with her as he wanted.

 

I think there are other people that make connections between Dibella and Sanguine as well.  That She represents the "better nature" aspect and He the indulgent side and of taking things to excess. Or something like that. The lore behind the book project I've been talking about is that spinoffs of Dibella's brush of Truepaint were developed, possibly by her worshipers and then corrupted by followers of Sanguine for the production of base porn instead of greater art.  Something to look into was how much the suppression of the Pillow Book was due to anti-porn agitation and how much that it was during the times of the Tribunal and works of, by or for the daedra were considered anathema.

 

 

[espguy]

On 3/23/2019 at 11:53 PM, karlpaws said:

A few, probably random and disconnected points...

 

I'm not sure Nords are against other races living in their own areas so maybe they're more organizationally OCD? (though they're not fond of elves for reasons - and would anti - Dunmer animosity due to neighboring wars, magic usage, and now refugee status, be equal of the recent Altmer animosity for Empire toppling and Talos banning? and they'd rather orcs not be living in Skyrim, as long as the Redguards stayed home, would they have any issues?)

 

If males and females are seen more equal in terms of roles and abilities, does that lead to a looser or stricter sense of sexual morality? I'd guess looser.  Also, how much is that historically accurate via the other games, vs Nord sense (and this would be part of what you're asking... is Olfina's attitude reflected in High Rock, Hammerfall, Vaardenfall or Cyrodil).

 

Do women own property and run businesses in other provinces? Is that truly canon or just a reflection of our modern, enlightened view of gender roles.  As one of the lore videos mentioned, Nirn seems to have regressed magically (and possibly technologically if the lack of understanding Dwemer machines goes) from eras past.

 

I thought I read that humans and merfolk cannot crossbreed (though if that's how Breton's came about, maybe the racial lines have diverged enough that it isn't possible) would a lack of interbreeding lessen the stigma?  As worik said, sex for fun vs sex for procreation.

 

Is the lack of brothels in game a rating issue or a game canon morality issue? There was a red light area in one town in one of the last 3 games, implying that it was considered possible by the game developers but not at all a focal point.  Is that canon or signs of a stricter cultural attitude toward sex?

 

In the lore videos, they sometimes put a lot of focus on things I'd consider gameplay based shortcuts or obvious errors.  I don't remember enough of Oblivion, much less Morrowind, to say how many leaders were without spouses as half the Skyrim jarls are, or how many shopkeepers are living with siblings instead of being married with 3-5 kids being raised to take over the family business. (is that just because they devs didnt want the needed horde of kids running around or some other canon reason?)

 

In past Earth history, lineage of children was jealously controlled by some as they didn't want to be responsible for bastard children. We don't really see peasants that much in Skyrim and generally not as large families, just a single hired hand here or there.  If nearly anyone can get the money to start a lumber mill (but not sell it when things turn sour - Kynesgrove; husband runs off - Heartood; bears become your primary competitor...) would inheritance matter as much? Or, if your mill is owned by the jarl and you have nothing to really pass down...

 

Might also have to ask how knowledgeable people really are of diseases and their sources, and the effectiveness and cost of treatments.  While the player character can be instantly cured by using a shrine, other NPC dialogue seems to imply that not everyone gets a blessing when praying at a shrine, so apothecaries would be more important.  If there is a decent knowledge of sexual diseases and cures can be had with effectiveness, that could lead to a greater increase in recreational sex. 

 

out of ideas, for now

The lack of brothels is a censorship thing, in daggerfall and morrowind there were brothels, theyre definettly canon and so is sexual slavery, before oblivion dibella  was heavilly inspired in aphrodite including the sex cukt and worship thing, she was the goddes of all sorts of sex including pure plasure except necrophilia and vampires both being despised. sanguine is the patron of debauchery sex is only part of his domain and mephala is the daedric goddess of sex but more about sex as a tool. Things were more chill at that time than nowadays, putting brotehls after morrowind would cause unwanted outrage, wich is the same reason why in ESO despite being the main villain it isnt commented on molag bal being the god of rape in the main quest only on side stuff and books. Its the same with fallout bethesda still have its aduklt stuff from old times but its under wraps and unless you dive in the lore and immerse youself you wont notice most of it.

Bethesda is well aware of LL they just pretend they dont know about us, it wouldnt even surprise me if some bethesda empoyees actually are part of the community in secret.

 

On 3/27/2019 at 2:27 AM, Jexsam said:

It's not quite that simple, either.  In a single generation, the offspring for all intents and purposes is the race of the mother.  But the in-game book Racial Phylogeny does say that some minor traits can be inherited from the father.  A child born to a Nord mother and Altmer father might have a slightly sharper facial structure, though perhaps not outstandingly so.

 

However, if we take the lore on the origins of the Bretons as biological fact, then what we get is the strong implication that repeated interbreeding can, over time, create "spin-off" races.  Not true half-breeds, but unique new peoples among whom the findings in Racial Phylogeny will hold true.  Bretons are the end result of continued interbreeding between ancient Aldmer and the earliest Nedes, ancestors of the Altmer and Nords respectively.  I swear I've seen it written that Bosmer are the "other half" of this interbreeding - it would sort of make sense given the fact of the offspring sharing the mother's race that one strongly elven and one strongly human group would emerge from such interbreeding - but I can't find it on UESP, so that's either old/outmoded information or I'm misremembering entirely.

 

Racial Phylogeny doesn't really touch on Orcs or other beast races IIRC, but we know from Oblivion's Grey Prince that at the very least, an otherwise human (Imperial specifically) vampire can breed with an orc.  And, again as Racial Phylogeny suggested, he did inherit a physical trait from his father - he's pale as fuck.  That said, we don't see his mother, so we can't say with 100% certainty that his paleness isn't at least somewhat from her, but the relevant bit is humans and orcs can breed.

 

tl;dr Bretons are a result of interbreeding between men and mer and have become their own race so while true halfbreeds aren't a thing, races can mix into new ones with enough time.

Vampires are fertile and pass more traits to its children than regular people, good examples are the grey prince pale skin and I assume his superior physical aptitude.

 

9 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

This topic hasn't garnered the discussion I'd hoped. So I've opened up the rules. It's not like Bugthesda is going to counter anything we come up with.

 

If you've ever played Morrowind, then you'll know how much the Dunmer despise necromancy. Which makes me wonder what a truly antinomian dark elf would get up to? The desire to rebel against the values of society can be extremely strong. Necromancers can get their jollies just by raising the dead and summoning ghosts, but as we saw with Arondil in Skyrim, some go a step (or more) further than just using the dead as labor or guardians.

 

There's also the Dunmeri tradition of ancestor worship. In a world where your ancestors can return as ghosts or something more corporeal, what happens if that ancestor was especially lascivious in life? And what if the worshipful Dunmer is of an equally lustful bent? Do the Dunmer consider such "placation" disgusting or dishonorable or do they fulfill it as they would any other wish from their ancestors?

 

Morrowind (the province and the game) also has (had?) legalized slavery. Argonians and Khajiit were the most common races to be enslaved, but other races and even other Dunmer could wind up as slaves due to debt or criminal sentencing. In one of the huts in the Dren Plantation in the game is an Imperial male along with a Khajiit female, the latter a slave while the former is an enforcer for House Dren. Clearly some "liberties" were taken with slaves and such privileges were given to ranking members of the Great Houses as well.

 

That leads to the question of what happened if one party became pregnant? In TES lore the child takes the race of the mother, so impregnated female slaves wouldn't cause that much of an issue. But what if a male slave impregnates a free woman, especially a member of a House? TES isn't nearly as patriarchal as real world history, so any consequences wouldn't be based on sexism so much as politics and societal views. She might abort or even give birth to the child, depending on her personal views. Or she might be cast out for "sullying the bloodline" with a slave, even if she aborts the child.

 

The unique item Boethiah's Pillow Book (there's a mod by AlienSlof on the Morrowind Nexus to flesh it out better) indicates that porn exists among the Dunmer and likely the other races of Tamriel as well. The same is true of the miniature statues of Dibella in Skyrim. While the statues are displayed openly, the book was hidden so there's a clear divide between "art" and "pornography" among the races.

 

On the topic of Boethiah and their (hermaphrodite Daedric Prince) pillow book, what's changed socially among the Dunmer since the False (Almsivi) Tribunal was destroyed/disappeared and the Anticipations (True Tribunal) was reinstated? Sex isn't Boethiah's sphere, but it is the sphere of Mephala, another member of the Anticipations. She is the goddess of both subtle and violent aspects of her sphere; regarding sex, courtship/orgy (taken from Vivec and Mephala). Would sex be a form of worship among the Dunmer now? Is sex and sexuality more openly tolerated among them? Remember that Solstheim is still reeling from the eruption of Red Mountain and its people are more concerned with survival, so it's not a good example of how the Dunmer worship in the Fourth Era.

 

The ascension of a hermaphroditic god wouldn't be new to the Dunmer. Vivec was a hermaphrodite before s/he disappeared. So are hermaphrodites considered blessed by the Dunmer as being closer to a god? Would they hold a special position in Vivec's/Boethiah's clergy?

I think the book was hidden because it gave more glory to boethiah than the tribunal not because it was porn. Also I agree with with you about the possibility of the dunmer cvonsidering hermaphrodites as blessed.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

I screwed up my lore slightly. It's Mephala who's specifically described as being hermaphroditic--in the FudgeMuppet video on him/her--while Boethiah isn't called out as such even though s/he has appeared as both male and female. A correction was made in the original post regarding the importance of being hermaphroditic in regards to Mephala.

On 4/15/2019 at 12:12 AM, espguy said:

I think the book was hidden because it gave more glory to boethiah than the tribunal not because it was porn.

I always got the feeling it wasn't kept hidden because it was pornographic or praising a Daedric Prince but because it proved Gandosa Arobar was sleeping around. That becoming known would have been bad for her father, a Redoran Councilor.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:03 PM, karlpaws said:

Regarding the Dunmer and ancestor worship, if you revere your near ancestors (also brought up in the Velothi video) and not just the distant ones, you'd not be so keen on desecrating their bodies with necromancy.  Depending on the person's strength of belief, trying to be a rebel wouldn't be enough to make you raise a horny dead uncle or aunt so you can get your groove on. If the ancestor actually returned, a la the Spectral Assassin, I think conjugal approaches would be ok though that would probably depend on what condition and physical ability said ancestor had.

You're right about simply wanting to be a rebel not being enough. True antinomianism is motivated by overwhelming hatred. The kind that can drive people to horrific extremes like it did with the Nazis, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tong, Stalin, and hundreds of real life serial killers in history and modern times. That kind of extreme desire to profane what's considered sacred is what I was talking about.

 

Let me clarify the difference between "necrophilia" and "spectrophilia." In the case of this discussion, the former refers specifically to sex with the physical remains while the latter refers to sex with the spirit.

 

Those who let their reverence of their ancestors become something sexual would almost certainly be spectrophiliacs. The Dunmer believe that the body is merely a vessel for the soul and remains are often cremated to return them "to the ash from which they spawned." So the body wouldn't be of much interest nor would they likely still exist in a form usable for sex. Thus a Dunmer who wished to indulge their desires with an ancestor would be forced to summon their spirit back to Mundus: spectrophilia. As you said, whether it was accepted or not would depend on the ancestor in question.

 

It also begs the question of views on incest among the races of Nirn. Not just from a genetic standpoint but a social one. After all, calling on your ancestors for some fun in the bedroom is still incest, no matter how far removed. In regards to spectrophilia it's probably not an issue, especially if it's in the form of veneration or placation.

 

I watched the FudgeMuppet video "Is Necromancy Evil?" and found out that the Dunmeri view on necromancy is a bit more restricted than I first thought, as well. The Dunmer don't see problems with using necromancy on non-Dunmer. They consider other races lesser than they are. But the use of Dunmer remains? Blasphemy that would call for immediate execution. Which ties in with Dunmer necromancers motivated by an antinomian streak using other dark elves both as minions, servants, and playthings.

 

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So we know that Bretons are descended from Aleyids and Nedes but half-breeds are impossible. So how do we explain Bretons? I kind of side with @Jexsam that they descended from generations of interbreeding between the two races. Eventually the mingled blood gave rise to a new race different from either original. This means that other races could arise from generations of regular interbreeding. But it also seems to indicate that such "half-breeds" are remarkably fragile and easily "bred out" by even one generation not breeding with another of their kind. Given how long the Aleyids ruled what is now High Rock and took lovers from the Nedes, Bretons are truly unique.

 

A mingling of the human races is much more likely but in meta terms the rule that "the child inherits the abilities of the mother" would stand without some custom race mods. Even then the abilities of the parents would mingle and mix in the child so only some of the abilities of each are inherited. Imagine a half-Nord, half-Redguard with the Nord's resistance to Frost, the Redguard's Adrenaline Rush, and a mix of their starting racial skills. That idea would make sense were it made canon but some people would invariably cry foul as it "dilutes the uniqueness of each race" or "goes against previous canon lore regarding racial animosities."

 

That last one never makes sense when I see it. The degree of racial animosity between the races of Men are nowhere near as severe as those between Men and Mer. It's more than likely that half-breeds exist, but again they're easily "bred out" if the child mates with anyone but another half-breed of the same mixed descent. So the argument against them stands but for very different reasons than some would think. Of course, mods could add them in and I'd consider such half races canon if they mix the racial traits of their parents. Imagine a half-Nord, half-Redguard with Frost Resistance, Adrenaline Rush, and a mixture of starting skills from both. As well as the obvious physical looks combining both in one.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

While restarting for the 2,309th time (BethINI wasn't properly configured, mod conflicts, Skyrim being Skyrim) I decided to give playing an orc a try. It struck me that the polygynous orc tribes don't leave much room for sexual relief of their members. Or rather, it's never mentioned how members handle such. The stricture that the chieftain is the only male who may take a wife/wives and father children implies that any of his sons are SOL and may explain why so many leave the tribe to join the Legion. It's as much to sleep around and satisfy their itch as it is about martial training and experience.

 

But that same stricture doesn't necessarily outlaw things like sex with any slaves kept by the tribe. Or homosexual encounters. Or even non-coital sex. Are the various wives of the chieftain enjoying each other's company when he's distracted or simply not up to the task? Since the Empire is based on Rome, do the men learn to enjoy another kind of "brotherhood" during their service? Do orc women use birth control (explaining why all the wise women are alchemists) if they take pleasure from their male slaves? Do members of the same tribe "help" each other out in ways that can't produce children? So many questions, so few in-game answers.

 

Obviously all of the above only applies to orcs who adhere to the traditional clan structure. Many do leave their clans to pursue their own interests.

[Adviser69]

Speaking of FudgeMuppet, one of their recent videos definitely deserves sharing:

 

So.... apparently Khajiit have barbed penises...

 

[Blaze69]

1 hour ago, Adviser69 said:

So.... apparently Khajiit have barbed penises...

Yup. And seeing how Bethesda has gone full-on PG-13 and refuses to even mention the most mature/explicit bits of the older lore, I'm pretty sure this fact cannot be retconned (unlike plenty of other cool stuff), because doing so would require them to acknowledge the fact that Khajiit dicks were discussed and described at some point (and do it again, even if it's just to deny the previous info). That wouldn't be very cash money of them because THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Won't somebody please think of the children? I mean, they are risking their hides already by having the Lusty Argonian Maid books in there, after all (mild innuendo with a beast race character? HERESY!).

 

They may turn Tsaesci from vampiric anthro snakes into lame ol' oomans, but they will never take our barbed cat dicks. 

 

Anyhow, on a more on-topic note, I'm pretty sure this fact would have some interesting consequences or implications on sexual interactions between Khajiits and other races. Would female Khajiit find sex with other races lame or less pleasurable due to the lack of a stimulation they would be used and adapted to? Would (wo)men and mer pursue Khajiit not only because of being furries genuine attraction to their feline/exotic form, but also simply for the sake of experiencing what a barbed dick would feel like?

 

This also begs the question: does the furstock affect the actual genitalia they have, or do all Khajiit have the same bits regardless of their subspecies? Sure would be weird to see females of the otherwise "feral" variants like Senche or Alfiq having humanoid bits instead of more beastial ones to match their bodies; or, on the other hand, it would certainly be intersting to see the case of male Ohmes, as they are supposed to look exactly like regular Bosmer. Wonder if anybody out there has ever gone to bed after scoring with what they thought was a charming Bosmer lad only to get a spiky surprise when it things went down... 

[Adviser69]

10 minutes ago, Blaze69 said:

Anyhow, on a more on-topic note, I'm pretty sure this fact would have some interesting consequences or implications on sexual interactions between Khajiits and other races. Would female Khajiit find sex with other races lame or less pleasurable due to the lack of a stimulation they would be used and adapted to? Would (wo)men and mer pursue Khajiit not only because of being furries genuine attraction to their feline/exotic form, but also simply for the sake of experiencing what a barbed dick would feel like?

Sure puts Ysolda's interests in a whole new light. ?