Age=Wisdom?

[Jazzman]

3 hours ago, winny257 said:

you're right and that's why I wrote that!

the Human is that most intelligent beings of this earth, that I do not laugh. 

And most importantly, homo sapiens means 'wise man', a marvelous taxonomic grandstanding by the robust Neanderthal man within, isn't it? 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join

you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...
__ Yoda

 

... and you'll do your master's bidding.

[winny257]

3 hours ago, Jazzman said:

And most importantly, homo sapiens means 'wise man', a marvelous taxonomic grandstanding by the robust Neanderthal man within, isn't it?  

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[27X]

51 minutes ago, winny257 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

You realize most people have neanderthal DNA in them right?

 

right.

[winny257]

54 minutes ago, 27X said:

 

You realize most people have neanderthal DNA in them right?

 

right.

all 

moment, some have Alien DNA! 

 

[Jazzman]

20 hours ago, 27X said:

 

You realize most people have neanderthal DNA in them right?

 

right.

Private deep ancestry DNA analysis (Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups) has become affordable in the meantime ($400-$800 and rapidly falling).

 

Spoiler

Did that at a 50% discount while still at university with special interest in the mtDNA, the mitochondrial DNA we inherit from our mother, thus representing the motherline through time. My mother is a native American so I wanted to know where I actually come from since some said this and others that. As a result I got 2.8% Neanderthal and 0.2% Denisovan (a marker for native Americans, Europeans lack of). The Neanderthal share is relatively high, so most likely dad is just a stealthy Neanderthal man. Yup. My origin science could pinpoint to the (black-eyed) Mal'ta-Buret hunter-gatherer culture at Lake Baikal in Eastern Siberia some 15,000 years ago that later partly headed toward the East to inhabit the Americas at the end of the day. For me all this is fascinating. I can almost see the pregnant black-haired woman dressed up in two thick layers of Caribou summer and winter fur with the household on the dog sled and two teddy bear-like kids on top in a long line of sleds that drive through the powder snow into the sunrise at fresh minus 40 °C. Musher's ho! One day I will visit the Baikal area, my roots, I simply have to. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jazzman said:

Private Deep ancestry DNA analysis (Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups) has become affordable in the meantime ($400-$800 and rapidly falling).

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Did that at a 50% discount while still at university with special interest in the mtDNA, the mitochondrial DNA we inherit from our mother, thus representing the motherline through time. My mother is a native American so I wanted to know where I actually come from since some said this and others that. As a result I got 2.8% Neanderthal and 0.2% Denisovan (a marker for native Americans, Europeans lack of). The Neanderthal share is relatively high, so most likely dad is just a stealthy Neanderthal man. Yup. My origin science could pinpoint to the (black-eyed) Ma'ta-Buret hunter-gatherer culture at Lake Baikal in Eastern Siberia some 15,000 years ago that later partly headed toward the East to inhabit the Americas at the end of the day. For me all this is fascinating. I can almost see the pregnant black-haired woman dressed up in two thick layers of Caribou summer and winter fur with the household on the dog sled and two teddy bear-like kids on top in a long line of sleds that drive through the powder snow into the sunrise at fresh minus 40 °C. Musher's ho! One day I will visit the Baikal area, my roots, I simply have to. 

 

https://dna-explained.com/2013/01/24/what-is-a-haplogroup/

 

once in very early grade school (very early) I quoted to some kid what I must have heard on last night's TV show, that everyone is from Africa.

Geez, the kid bawled and kept insisting his family originated in Jamaica.

Now umpteen eons later the subject comes up again.

I got in real bad trouble that day, I almost understood the adult-English going on nearby ("my god, doesn't he know what's going on today"?

Well, no, I didn't.

I think I was releasing my inner pedantic (it runs in my family)

 

Wisdom is knowing what to say and when, and that gene must've skipped my family, hmm.

[Jazzman]

2 hours ago, 2dk2c said:

Guess I have to add that next to random mutations over time the frequent blending with older specimens of the genus homo since the exodus from Africa played a major role in what has become us, homo sapiens, today. Diabetes type 2, for example, is Neanderthal, advantageous when protein-rich food is scarce, but disadvantageous in the age of the supermarket. And the ability of certain peoples to live and work on high altitudes (Andes, Himalaya) is genuine Denisovan.

 

And it seemingly worked always acc. to the same scheme - a young woman of us got pregnant by someone that visibly did not belong to us (most likely a hospitality gift given to an outsider to refresh the genetic pool of the isolated clan as anticipated in Annaud's movie Quest for Fire 1981) and raised her child in our clan. If ever, only the female offspring of such, sometime borderline interbreeding was fertile acc. to Haldane's rule. All this turns homo sapiens into a multi-hybrid, totally distinct from those black people that once have left Africa. That, however, might be the smart key to success in survival of our species under almost any condition.

 

For the make-up of a people only the mitochondrial dna, the ancestral haplogroup is relevant, we all, boys and girls, might imitate our father but define ourselves over our mother (hence motherland), the woman that usually had to stfu for a million years... but not anymore. Liberty, Equality, Sexuality! if you get my meaning.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Jazzman said:

. Liberty, Equality, Sexuality! if you get my meaning.

Your post invented a gargantuan train-station of trains-of-thought in my head.

Marlin Perkins and diabetes (Animal Husbandry, nutrition and disease)

Racial discrimination (we all came from there but WE evolved)

The Supermarket manager, every mitochondrial bit of her is perfection.

 

I'll never get your meaning but you say it so well, I hope you keep saying it.

 

People brimming with such off-the-cuff information they can type into a post in minutes, are priceless.

(Uh-oh, another train station in my head is going up)

 

My blog has a motto,

"Whatever you believe, or can conceive,

someone else believes it as well,

thought of it first,

and said it better in a much better blog"

Or words to that effect.

Wisdom must be subjective then, because whatever subject exists, people know tons about it but

hardly anyone listens

 

 

 

[Jazzman]

1 hour ago, 2dk2c said:

Racial discrimination (we all came from there but WE evolved)

The evolution of climate adaptability, disease resistance, eye and skin color through the exchange of body fluids along the long voyage through different climate zones has nothing to do with the evolution of the brain, the anchor point of stupid racism, only food has. And it looks as if our diet hasn't significantly improved in the last 50,000 years, at least not enough for an extra ccm in the brain volume. That means, a two-year-old child in Africa the day before leaving the East African rift some 40,000 years ago, miraculously transferred in my house would have mastered the smartphone 24 months later behind my back so that I have to pay the bill for the mini games it has ordered online... Happened before, will happen again. To give kids access to the smartphone (which I did and still do) disqualifies me for any wisdom. So I better eat humble pie.

[Guest]

You'd have been an encouraging mom, not one who made up epithets

Giving them encouragement might give them the wisdom to choose, later on in life,

and maybe they'd feel guilty and repay your cell-phone bill.

  

And so I think, wisdom is subjective, regardless of the years gone by (5000, 50,000, etc).

---------

 wise people came up with "Miscegenation" and "eugenics"....Another train of thought going off in the distance  (to some broken bridge overlooking hell, I hope)

 

 

 

[27X]

12 hours ago, winny257 said:

all 

moment, some have Alien DNA! 

 

 

Nope, just a lot.

[27X]

7 hours ago, 2dk2c said:

Racial discrimination (we all came from there but WE evolved)

The human mind is based on discrimination and bias, and the literal sorting of criteria phenomenon and context from best to worst. It's how we survived, and if it ever goes away, it will be entirely out of the lifetime of the great great grandchildren of anyone here's purview.

 

The brain is a literal state machine and sorting engine.

[Jazzman]

@27X

 

Unfortunately, you've just made a statement and conveniently forgot to track the racist effect back to its prehistoric cause. Let's talk about causality.

Guess the cause is the strong family bond as part of a clan of relatives that are supposed to live and act together to survive in an utterly hostile environment.

The clan has its unique totem, its own facial markings and body paintings to show the outer world that they are e.g. bears and not perhaps wolves or crows.

And - such a clan is territorial knitted.

 

As youngsters we just loved to proudly show up with such traditional things. In Primary School the teachers immediately exorcised these demons tho but

only to indoctrinate us with their own demons. We're from now on Argentinians, we are good Christians, and we speak God's own language, Spanish that is!

Or else...

 

The bias of the clan is well founded by the fact that "the others" don't provide food and that occasionally feuds and raids happen as well as intertribal warfare.

Such visible manifestation of a celebrated, ritualized We feeling by a self-reliant group of up to thirty related people separates them directly from the They

groups out there and is thus the root cause of "racism" between archaic family clans, tribes, later peoples and finally modern nations and even whole cultures.

 

The brain's in fact a sorting machine that depends on (passed on) memory, visual impressions and bond feelings. That's the master key for any racist demagogy.

Make the bear clan great again... (by making the other clans a bit smaller). It's pure xenophobia, lived rabbit racism. The wolf clan is most likely another race, no?

 

[Guest]

age and wisdom ? I'm 51 still making the same mistakes, as for racism there's only one race ,Homo sapiens,the rest is ,,Ideology It's perfectly normal to be biased towards/against those that are different........but you have to realize that you are,so you can do something about it

 

The most confusing thing the human brain will ever deal with.......is another human brain

[wokking56]

2 hours ago, Jazzman said:

@27X

As youngsters we just loved to proudly show up with such traditional things. In Primary School the teachers immediately exorcised these demons tho but

only to indoctrinate us with their own demons. We're from now on Argentinians, we are good Christians, and we speak God's own language, Spanish that is!

Or else...

 

The bias of the clan is well founded by the fact that the others don't provide food and that occasionally feuds and raids happen as well as intertribal warfare.

Such visible manifestation of a celebrated, ritualized We feeling by a self-reliant group of up to thirty related people separates them directly from the They

groups out there and is thus the root cause of "racism" between archaic family clans, tribes, later peoples and finally modern nations and even whole cultures.

 

 

Agreed this "clan bias" is indeed a learned behavior, and sure at one time in the distant past it was a necessary thing but we are past that now. Yet it still persists. Take for example several small children (different backgrounds, social class, race, religion and so on) under the age of 4 years put them in a room and they will for the most part get along. However give them another 2 to 3 years to learn their clans bias and the outcome will be quite different.

Heck that's not even to mention us Americans. We are spoon fed BS from an early age and we end up buying it. As in Primary School as you suggested we are given our first history book (of many) with 5 or 6 chapters on the whole of human history up to the founding of America; followed by 20+ chapter of lies and half-truths on the absolute awesomeness of our "great" nation (OK maybe that breakdown is a little off but not by much). Making most of us "overly patriotic idiots" (read: annoying as F***).

[woodsman30]

On 8/7/2018 at 2:47 AM, winny257 said:

Human is that most intelligent beings of this earth

One first has to define intelligent.... Humans kill, steal, rape, pillage, and do any number of crimes against nature/man for personal gain... Does not sound intelligent to me or wise. I find humans to be the most unwise species on the planet truth be known... outside looking in we would be considered a blight on planet earth a parasitic relationship if you will...just saying

[winny257]

26 minutes ago, woodsman30 said:

One first has to define intelligent.... Humans kill, steal, rape, pillage, and do any number of crimes against nature/man for personal gain... Does not sound intelligent to me or wise. I find humans to be the most unwise species on the planet truth be known... outside looking in we would be considered a blight on planet earth a parasitic relationship if you will...just saying

Yes Yes Yes 

[27X]

8 hours ago, Jazzman said:

@27X

 

Unfortunately, you've just made a statement and conveniently forgot to track the racist effect back to its prehistoric cause. Let's talk about causality.

Guess the cause is the strong family bond as part of a clan of relatives that are supposed to live and act together to survive in an utterly hostile environment.

The clan has its unique totem, its own facial markings and body paintings to show the outer world that they are e.g. bears and not perhaps wolves or crows.

And - such a clan is territorial knitted.

 

As youngsters we just loved to proudly show up with such traditional things. In Primary School the teachers immediately exorcised these demons tho but

only to indoctrinate us with their own demons. We're from now on Argentinians, we are good Christians, and we speak God's own language, Spanish that is!

Or else...

 

The bias of the clan is well founded by the fact that "the others" don't provide food and that occasionally feuds and raids happen as well as intertribal warfare.

Such visible manifestation of a celebrated, ritualized We feeling by a self-reliant group of up to thirty related people separates them directly from the They

groups out there and is thus the root cause of "racism" between archaic family clans, tribes, later peoples and finally modern nations and even whole cultures.

 

The brain's in fact a sorting machine that depends on (passed on) memory, visual impressions and bond feelings. That's the master key for any racist demagogy.

Make the bear clan great again... (by making the other clans a bit smaller). It's pure xenophobia, lived rabbit racism. The wolf clan is most likely another race, no?

 

Has nothing to do with racism, and more to do with not being eaten by remembering which trees to be near for the awesome fruit during ____ months and which time of the year the sabertoofs are horny and patrolling for hot tindr hookups in your immediate vicinity, also having lots of stamina and not a lot of action/reaction hardware all the fancy predator animals have. Conveniently, this also applies to other people you do know/don't know as well, which is great as humans are really bad at multitasking and kind of lazy unless there's definite benefits at the end of the task they're doing.

 

Biology has little to do with modern political context, as cancer researchers are finding out as people eating lots of yucky new chemicals and foods they normally never had access to are developing cancer at ever increasing rates. We have a shitton of lateral memory for sorting all the likes and dislikes, and while you're certainly correct that learned behavior is huge in the human framework, sorting and categorizing is built in the wetware.

 

Speaking of learned behavior, monetary and religious institutions have been relying on the pattern making since literally ever, and it works so well because the framework isn't just sociological.

[old cat]

5 hours ago, wokking56 said:

Spoiler

Agreed this "clan bias" is indeed a learned behavior, and sure at one time in the distant past it was a necessary thing but we are past that now. Yet it still persists. Take for example several small children (different backgrounds, social class, race, religion and so on) under the age of 4 years put them in a room and they will for the most part get along. However give them another 2 to 3 years to learn their clans bias and the outcome will be quite different.

Heck that's not even to mention us Americans. We are spoon fed BS from an early age and we end up buying it. As in Primary School as you suggested we are given our first history book (of many) with 5 or 6 chapters on the whole of human history up to the founding of America; followed by 20+ chapter of lies and half-truths on the absolute awesomeness of our "great" nation (OK maybe that breakdown is a little off but not by much). Making most of us "overly patriotic idiots" (read: annoying as F***).

A side note I view as exemplary of the importance of the "education" of the tribe, How do you destroy a society/culture/people whose territory you desire? History shows may examples of essentially the same tactic (not sure it is a strategy, just commonly similar solution):

• Vietnamese had own alphabet, school system, etc. - systematically destroyed when colonized
• Cherokee ... uh same thing except they in large part where resettled
• Inca and Aztec (not bothering to separate here, sorry) education was not as formal and some cultural aspects continued after the "assimilation" but discouraged

There are other examples throughout history. One primary element for many education systems is to engender homogeneity in a populace so "common expectations" become ingrained in the society with a "common understanding" of the history etc.

Also known as "winning hearts and minds" or sometimes a common saying "the winners write the history"

[Jazzman]

11 hours ago, old cat said:

• Inca and Aztec (not bothering to separate here, sorry) education was not as formal and some cultural aspects continued after the "assimilation" but discouraged

Indeed, but perhaps not that discouraged. It's called religious guerilla syncretism. For example, Qhapaq Raymi, the Inca festival of the dead at which the ancestral mummies that normally rest hidden (e.g. in the Atacama desert) commune a while with the living at the December solstice, the day Christ was born, is celebrated after piously carrying huge Madonna figures through the streets first. In this way the all-seeing Catholic church is pacified and successfully kept at bay. The three hundred plus tribes the Inca Empire (the 'Realm of the Four Parts' of the known world) was once made of are thus able to keep the ancient traditions and rituals like they used to, hidden below a mere thin layer of pious Catholicism. Almost a win-win. Almost...

 

And no worries Inglés, I usually don't separate between Anglo-Americans and Anglo-Europeans either, so what.  *g*

[MK66]

I don't think we have any right to talk... I mean, we failed. We have no experience about how to make a better world and should have no saying in it. Yet, we still try, like our opinion is worth something: Others said it before us, others will say it later.
As for the youth, I don't think the new generation (or rather, last generations) being free of perspective and education is a good thing: Their lack of interest in such matters is what allowed their rights to be destroyed, and it still does.
A world of uneducated/uninterested consumerists morons is bound to see them exploited for profit by smarter, more powerful, ill intentioned people, and they may even never notice it and be happy. Well deserved I say, to both them and their parents, because one thing is true: The actual state of the world is entirely our fault, and the one of those before us.

 

And yeah, I'm moralistic. I just don't care anymore.

[Jazzman]

@MK66

Oh well, laying aside that you've quite correctly described our situation form the educational point of view - we're indeed artificially stupidified by parental consumerism on credit and its overwhelming distraction from the real world - you're seemingly still busy in understanding the overall situation we were born into by the boomers.

 

It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. What truth? That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind. __ Morpheus, The Matrix (1999)

 

Ignorance is bliss. __ Cypher's counterargument, The Matrix (1999)

 

So, feel free to unplug yourself or stay plugged in. There is no Neo coming to the rescue but a great many Mr Smith agents out there, looking for you and me...

[FauxFurry]

19 hours ago, woodsman30 said:

One first has to define intelligent.... Humans kill, steal, rape, pillage, and do any number of crimes against nature/man for personal gain... Does not sound intelligent to me or wise. I find humans to be the most unwise species on the planet truth be known... outside looking in we would be considered a blight on planet earth a parasitic relationship if you will...just saying

Members of nearly every other mammalian species do those things, as well. The biggest difference is that they seem to feel no shame about doing it. That shame might be the sign of the beginning of sapience, of wisdom.

[Jazzman]

1 hour ago, FauxFurry said:

Members of nearly every other mammalian species do those things, as well. The biggest difference is that they seem to feel no shame about doing it. That shame might be the sign of the beginning of sapience, of wisdom.

Shame is the manifestation of guilt and fear, and that requires sophisticated abstract thinking, the projection of what was done to somebody else might happen to oneself one day. That, however, is still a privilege of the genus homo and, if ever, just rudimentary present among our quadrupedal cousins and increasingly... the orcas.

[worik]

Spoiler

On 8/8/2018 at 3:33 PM, wokking56 said:

We are spoon fed BS from an early age and we end up buying it. As in Primary School as you suggested we are given our first history book (of many) with 5 or 6 chapters on the whole of human history up to the founding of America; followed by 20+ chapter of lies and half-truths on the absolute awesomeness of our "great" nation (OK maybe that breakdown is a little off but not by much). Making most of us "overly patriotic idiots" (read: annoying as F***).

 

That's called indoctrination, pardon me: education. It's pretty neccessary to keep the younger ones aligned with the hierarchy and thinking of the older ones.

And it's best applied from an early age onwards. The untrained human mind is mostly susceptible for this type of "guidance".

If it would not be applied, the young or untrained mind would start to develop it's own understanding of the world...  with unforseeable outcomes (highly probable most displeasing to the older ones).

 

If done right, it produces a "middle age" which is strongly convinced of it and they start to develop it to the next level of effectivity or efficiency. (and profit from it, when they become the older ones)

Thus, it's a stable system which cancels any thoughts of change at the earliest possible stage and ensures that the ideas, morals and ethics of it's founders are established for generations.

 

The question of age ?= wisdom depends on the sucess or failure of this education:

The more sucessful it is, the more belief and understanding is gained by the individual into the lessons, ideas, ...etc.  of this system.

Proportionally the chances of wisdom become less likely, since the individual has been limited to it's own world. The individual is now (successfully) incapable to formulate and analyze thesis+anti-thesis pairs for a situation to discover new solutions to this situation. So the ability to understand the world in all it's perspectives (a.k.a wisdom) has been moved out of reach.

 

On the other hand, the less successful the education is, the more likely (but not guaranteed) are the chances of wisdom. The individual still has a chance to apply multiple, different, unbiased, even opposing paths of thoughts to a given situation.

Gaining experience over the years as time goes by, the individuall gets better and better chances to understand any new situation in all it's perspectives. (Thus wisdom is in reach)