Devious Devices - Equip (LE)

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, Tyrant99 said:

I actually made a fun scene using those dances, so I'm glad that they're in there.

 

IMO T.ara and Kimy should do whatever they want to do, and it's fine because they are both adding interesting and different things.

 

The only situation that hopefully would be avoided is if a user could only install one Framework or the other. - I.e. - If a user installed ZAP, DD wouldn't work, or vice versa, if a user installed DD, ZAP wouldn't work. - This would be a disaster! -  As long as that doesn't happen, then it's all fine.

Yes, that´s it!

And me, I will ask you in future lot of things, be warned;-))

I have a feeling, that you are highly motivated and you will become a papyrus-super-coder:-)))

 

 

[Tyrant99]

6 minutes ago, t.ara said:

Yes, that´s exactly. And me, I will ask you in future lot of things, be warned;-))

I have a feeling, that you are highly motivated and you will become a papyrus-super-coder:-)))

Sure, anything you need. 

 

And sorry Inte about your Thread lol....

 

OK, I'm going to go work on some stuff.

[Kimy]

@donkeywho: As far as I understand it, t.ara isn't a fan of other mods merging his assets.

 

Also, a few other remarks:

 

1. DD has never and will never intentionally impede ZAP's functionality. These mods can coexist in the same load-order without any issue whatsoever. Removing DD's dependency on ZAP has actually -improved- their ability to coexist, as their respective bondage code can no longer get in each other's way.

2. My preferred stance since the day I took over DD was that I saw DD as the framework for wearable devices, and ZAP as the mod providing furniture devices. For a while, this approach seemed to be t.ara's as well - his first release was named T.ara's Ultimate Furniture Pack for a reason, I guess. DD never added one piece of furniture on its own end, either. We deliberately left this turf to ZAP.

3. ZAP 8+ added a healthy amount of wearable restraints which got announced by T.ara to be ZAP exclusives. Also, he said repeatedly that any future quest mods would be ZAP exclusive and not use DD's wearable restraints code. This will very likely result in these mods not working well with DD mods.

4. For the above reason, I consider the silent agreement DD = wearables, ZAP = furniture to be no longer in place. ZAP is quite obviously developed into a product competing with DD, not cooperating with it. T.ara. used the term "alternative", which means the same thing. That's 100% ok, and I respect this decision.

5. As a consequence, you can expect DD to offer the full spectrum of BDSM devices in the future as well, including furniture devices. There is no longer a reason for DD not to provide the full BDSM ecosystem to its users.

6. As "alternative" products, ZAP and DD are unable to detect each others devices. For that reason, if a content mod wants to be fully compatible with BOTH, they will need to set a dependency on BOTH ZAP and DD and perform checks against BOTH sets of keywords. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach. With some limitations, you can even do this without hardlinking to DD or ZAP. GetKeywordString() is your friend!

7. ZAP exclusive mods have zero right to complain to me about them being unable to work with DD devices. If they refuse to set a dependency on it, that is 100% natural and 100% working as (they) intended.

8. DD features both modern and lore-friendly devices. Mods can decide what to use. As DD never equips a single item on you by itself, content mods have full control over what they use or do not use. That's not called "lack of direction", it's called "being open."

 

Sorry Inte...I guess we really hijacked your thread... *offers peace cookie*

[t.ara]

Well:-)

 

You know what is MY BIGGEST PROBLEM?

 

WHERE CAN I PUT THAT "TANGLED TOWER"???

The whole afternoon I am stroling through tamriel and can´t find a suiting place !!!

 

IF YOU have a nice place, please p.m. me, show me the map-point and maybe you can shoot a picture also.

That place should be kept SECRET!!!

 

 

 

 

p.s.

 

Some things should be sorted out from my point of view:

KIMY told a little higher:

 

"2. My preferred stance since the day I took over DD was that I saw DD as the framework for wearable devices, and ****ZAP as the mod providing furniture devices. ***For a while, this approach seemed to be t.ara's as well - his first release was named T.ara's Ultimate Furniture Pack for a reason, I guess. DD never added one piece of furniture on its own end, either. *****We deliberately left this turf to ZAP."

"3. ZAP 8+ added a healthy amount of wearable restraints which got announced by T.ara to be ZAP exclusives. Also, he said repeatedly that any future quest mods would be ZAP exclusive and not use DD's wearable restraints code. This will very likely result in these mods not working well with DD mods."

 

 

 

Kimy!

 All "alternative" (new?) restraints in zap do use existing slots and existing keywords of zap. There´s no secret and everything is working like inside of V.6/7. Zap doesn´t use DD code. All that stuff is "clothing", leaned to existing items, same keywords, same slots-logical slot-use. Seems to me, that such a sort of items have been also long time ago inside of zap and got played by 1.000.000 users, isn´t that correct? 

Zap has never been a furniture mod only. ****Zap has been always a BDSM co-op-mod with sexLab together and it always had to held restraints in stock, to be used for the character and NPCs.

Well, sorry! I added some useful items that would also become created, if Mr.zazChris would go on with that mod - and additionally, to build up the "next" HDT-stuff to round up the overall pack. And such of those items I made I sadly  have not seen inside of DD before. And specially with the zap-framework they work together very nicely. I would have no idea where to put them instead.

 

And the DD line´s developpement came with the idea of DCL and became more and more bigger after years. I remember, when I suggested you in the past, to add furnitures inside of DCL. My task hasn´t become too much noticed. 

 

Seems to me that I got a virtual document  to add only furnitures to the zap-pack, but I have put there in between much more wanted  and customized items. BTW, I think that a lot of readers do not know what is really behind the new versions, all the new stuff has been newly created for the pack and for the BDSM-LOVER. This you can only understand, if you walk slowly through the  zbftestzone and "watch it".

 

 

***luckily I have a personal developpment and do not stay on one sort of work only - that would be boring

 

*****maybe my englisch is not good, but that is.....(...)   ...you wanted to tell truly you never planned to create furnitures in the past?- okay, the reason: you had no interest.

 

 

this can be read from color to color;-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kimy]

ZAP is the older mod, and yes, it was the first to have restraints. But then Zadil and Min took it one step further and implemented a framework for wearable restraints FAR more advanced than the equivalent code in ZAP. Theoretically, the new bondage code and the new devices could also have been put into ZAP, but for a reason unknown to me (I wasn't even on LL back then), it didn't happen that way. Whatever the reason was, it matters no longer, because it is what it is. What matters is that DD made the wearable restraints code in ZAP obsolete, as it provided something far, far, better. Something that over time got adapted by -almost- all BDSM mods using wearable restraints. The very vast majority of them is using DD these days. Yes, it's correct that ZAP's bondage code never got removed. If ZaZ and xaz would have stayed around, I would have suggested just that, btw. But we both know that ZAP has been more or less unmaintained for years now, so it's still in there. That doesn't mean that it's not obsolete. It's 100% obsolete. There is absolutely nothing in ZAP's restraints code not also provided by DD (including keywords), so why people still insist to use ZAP's obsolete implementation is quite frankly beyond me.

 

/re HDT items: If you mean ZaZ ankle shackles, I have merged them to DCL years ago along with a lot of other ZAP wearables. After I took over DD from Min, I also merged them into DD itself. I would gladly add your HDT wrist chain as well, but you said you don't want other mods to merge your stuff, and I respect that.

 

DCL actually has furniture, just not too many items. The quests I made back then simply didn't need them. And it's not lack of interest at all, it was just that the content I was working on at this time didn't need them. Also, this isn't about DCL. DCL is a bondage-themed content mod, not a framework. As a framework developer, I am VERY interested in furniture, because they are a staple in BDSM content.

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

ZAP is the older mod, and yes, it was the first to have restraints. But then Zadil and Min took it one step further and implemented a framework for wearable restraints FAR more advanced than the equivalent code in ZAP. Theoretically, the new bondage code and the new devices could also have been put into ZAP, but for a reason unknown to me (I wasn't even on LL back then), it didn't happen that way. Whatever the reason was, it matters no longer, because it is what it is. What matters is that DD made the wearable restraints code in ZAP obsolete, as it provided something far, far, better. Something that over time got adapted by -almost- all BDSM mods using wearable restraints. The very vast majority of them is using DD these days. Yes, it's correct that ZAP's bondage code never got removed. If ZaZ and xaz would have stayed around, I would have suggested just that, btw. But we both know that ZAP has been more or less unmaintained for years now, so it's still in there. That doesn't mean that it's not obsolete. It's 100% obsolete. There is absolutely nothing in ZAP's restraints code not also provided by DD (including keywords), so why people still insist to use ZAP's obsolete implementation is quite frankly beyond me.

 

/re HDT items: If you mean ZaZ ankle shackles, I have merged them to DCL years ago along with a lot of other ZAP wearables. After I took over DD from Min, I also merged them into DD itself. I would gladly add your HDT wrist chain as well, but you said you don't want other mods to merge your stuff, and I respect that.

 

DCL actually has furniture, just not too many items. The quests I made back then simply didn't need them. And it's not lack of interest at all, it was just that the content I was working on at this time didn't need them. Also, this isn't about DCL. DCL is a bondage-themed content mod, not a framework. As a framework developer, I am VERY interested in furniture, because they are a staple in BDSM content.

Kimy,

take the wrist-chain. You can also take the other HDT-stuff if it´s interesting for you. But you have to wait a little while for that next release because I must "smooth the chains" ...during export I forgot that and so I must do it again-lot of hours only for that are necessary.

The wrist-chain was alright as far I have in mind but I have other items, that need little "make-up".

And it can happen, that I create "alternative" chains, for all of them, in future.

That chain IS oblivion and I thought it is more light for HDT stuff and necessary, but it is not. A chain can have more "tris" and will work same way. Check out, if the cuffs do suit in size, if your characters do wear different other stuff, I can offer different sizes. You can use it at once/maybe rename it and it runs under same conditions into the same folder, like the ankle cuffs.

 

p.s the download is for DD !!

p.s. if you want something "special", let me know!

 

 

 

ZaZWristChainsRagDolls_1.7z

[t.ara]

Thank you, KIMY for asking me about that stuff:-)

Anyway I will offer new items inside of zap and

if you find something for DD, I´ll be glad to help and support you.

I need anyway a framework to test such items -this will be going on inside of zap.

 

Both animations are here: wearing that cuffs, you MUST have an offsetanimation/backside/frontside.

 

ofa -md ZazAPOA024 ZazAPOA024.hkx                ' Hands In Front In Hand Cuff
ofa -md ZazAPOA025 ZazAPOA025.hkx                ' Hands On Backside In Hand Cuffs

 

Desktop.7z

 

 

Luckily I found only one chain that has the issure of that smooth error....the pics show the difference: pic 1 smoothed, pic 2 unsmoothed - the manacle-chain has to be renewed !!

[Kimy]

Thank you!

 

I will ask our animator how to best integrate the animations (I have no clue about this stuff, haha!), but I think this item will be an awesome addition to DD!

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

Thank you!

 

I will ask our animator how to best integrate the animations (I have no clue about this stuff, haha!), but I think this item will be an awesome addition to DD!

And,

You can also create something different as offset. And I suggest to use not only that black "texture" for it - pick up something that shines and suits to the overall outfits and style you have.

I wrote DONKEY, that you can get every item, what you like to have for DD.

If you have "special" wishes for items/clutter/furniture/traps/meshes/buildings/customized-stuff, let me know:-)

 

[Veladarius]

8 hours ago, t.ara said:

Hello Veladarius:-)))

 

As long you don´t use the amount of more furniture, the zap-pack is not important for the famous Captured Dreams MOD.

As I mentined before, you CAN get a huge amount of more posibilities and you can also use vanilla furnitures now for the gamer´s character, like: simple sitting, leaning, the original wall-shackle (imp-wall-shackle) and much more.

I would in anyway keep things as simple as it is and don´t fiddle around with details. NOT EVERY FURNITURE IS USABLE FOR WHIPPING !!! - but the pack has a lot to offer, not at least the WHOLE zap animated-furniture-stuff has become to REAL furnitures !!!  (torture-pole, chaining-poses, hogtie-poses..........)

 I´d not try to use all stuff for one mod, but I think you will find out very quickly, how handy the zap is for setting up interesting locations and take some things for additional deko.  The milkers I did never touch (as it is not my personal taste)  - but I have taken, that they don´t work with bodyslide together and so they are not ideal for maybe most of us. If there´s a huge interest, I can later try to create something, that maybe works for different bodies.

Have also a look at the cages and outdoor-stuff.

 

I can build up lot of things like that and there´s no better place, then to collect them inside of ZAP:-) - That´s why I am here on LL. And if you want to have some custom stuff, please let me know!

ALL the BEST and let´s stay healthy;-)

 

 

p.s. do you think that version 6.11 was running better? - or is it really similar working like v.7.0?... I personally could not test it yet.

Well, I have heard there were issues with it but I wanted to see for myself and after a month of using it I have had none of the issues I had heard or any others. My first concern though was to make sure that everything I had in it ran smoothly already and what I have tested has been fine. 

 

Oh, I know that various furniture has it purposes and would likely only be using items that were appropriate for whatever scenes I was looking to build, I don't intend to stuff everything in there.

 

I have been using MME quite a bit and intend, at some point, to do a CD module using it and basically making the player a cow for the Master and the compound (either as a 'bad end' or if they volunteer for it) and has a high likelihood of being and 'end game' scenario. As for using the Milkers I usually use the option in MME to just be naked since I use a CBBE bodyslide body.

 

As I remember v6.11 worked fine, v6.10 was the version that broke things. I didn't notice any real difference between v6.11 and v7.0 and so far v8 is performing just fine for me. I have had people have problems with v7 and v8 but I tested everything in CD and was using v7 and it worked fine so I believe that some people's games have things going on in them that interfere with scenes by trying to run something else with one of the actors. If I can't reproduce it then it is on their end.

 

I have not really had a chance to look at all of the new items but what I have seen has been interesting. If i were to want anything it would be large pillory blocks (pillory is the only word I can think of the describe them), basically the ones outside the shop where the player gets chained spread eagle and left there for a while. The other is used in Property Slave when being offered for use by travelers, specifically a stone block (the one I use is a Skyrim Static object) that would have a chain and collar and hold the player in a bent over position with the arms bound behind their back in one way or another. Having those two items as a piece of furniture would be easier to work with especially the first one.

 

 

 

Overall as far as ZAP and DD go, both are frameworks and resources for modders to use. If a modder uses one and not the other they can't complain that the one they don't use interferes as even with previous versions of ZAP and DD you still had to make sure what you were using was compatible, especially between furniture and devices (even if those devices were from ZAP). I intend to make use of both for my needs whatever they may be.

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, Veladarius said:

Well, I have heard there were issues with it but I wanted to see for myself and after a month of using it I have had none of the issues I had heard or any others. My first concern though was to make sure that everything I had in it ran smoothly already and what I have tested has been fine. 

 

Oh, I know that various furniture has it purposes and would likely only be using items that were appropriate for whatever scenes I was looking to build, I don't intend to stuff everything in there.

 

I have been using MME quite a bit and intend, at some point, to do a CD module using it and basically making the player a cow for the Master and the compound (either as a 'bad end' or if they volunteer for it) and has a high likelihood of being and 'end game' scenario. As for using the Milkers I usually use the option in MME to just be naked since I use a CBBE bodyslide body.

 

As I remember v6.11 worked fine, v6.10 was the version that broke things. I didn't notice any real difference between v6.11 and v7.0 and so far v8 is performing just fine for me. I have had people have problems with v7 and v8 but I tested everything in CD and was using v7 and it worked fine so I believe that some people's games have things going on in them that interfere with scenes by trying to run something else with one of the actors. If I can't reproduce it then it is on their end.

 

I have not really had a chance to look at all of the new items but what I have seen has been interesting. If i were to want anything it would be large pillory blocks (pillory is the only word I can think of the describe them), basically the ones outside the shop where the player gets chained spread eagle and left there for a while. The other is used in Property Slave when being offered for use by travelers, specifically a stone block (the one I use is a Skyrim Static object) that would have a chain and collar and hold the player in a bent over position with the arms bound behind their back in one way or another. Having those two items as a piece of furniture would be easier to work with especially the first one.

YOU maybe / or somebody other please make a picture for me...I have a nice stone-block and draw a "picture", what you exactly LIKE to have.

I have an outdoor furniture that is coming in the zap-spreadeagle-position, or I can create a special furniture for CD only. One of my next furniture will be that way, but with healthy rings:-)

Maybe you mean the bend forward position of your mods "SIGN"?

 

pic 1 shows a very massive pillory that could be specially modified for your mod (for example extra-wide and more thicker...we can let away the stand-foot or bring the pillory between higher and more massive poles, you can get the texture suiting to outdoor area.

pic2 shows an original skyrim stone, that I like to become finally something useful:-)....

pic3 shows a furniture marker (pillory pose) , that can be used to get useless, but suiting clutter to become a furniture (zap has a broad collection of them (pic4))

Quote

 

 

 

Overall as far as ZAP and DD go, both are frameworks and resources for modders to use. If a modder uses one and not the other they can't complain that the one they don't use interferes as even with previous versions of ZAP and DD you still had to make sure what you were using was compatible, especially between furniture and devices (even if those devices were from ZAP). I intend to make use of both for my needs whatever they may be.

 

 

[Veladarius]

@t.ara Let's take this to a private thread, I think we have taken over Inte's thread long enough.

[t.ara]

5 hours ago, Veladarius said:

@t.ara Let's take this to a private thread, I think we have taken over Inte's thread long enough.

Yes;-)

Sorry INTE, for "raping" your thread - but it began here somehow.

[Inte]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 1:01 AM, Kimy said:

When did I do such a thing???

When you dropped the ZAP keywords from DDi, making it so neither mod is aware of the other.

 

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 1:01 AM, Kimy said:

ZAP and DD run absolutely flawlessly together, last time I checked. Actually they do so better than ever, now that their respective bondage code doesn't get in each other's way anymore.

Exactly what I’ve been saying.
So because they run flawlessly together why not keep the bondage code separate as you have it, and let them share a few keywords?

 

Alas, I think I’ve beaten this dead horse ad nauseam to no avail.
Why you would choose to make it harder for players and modders alike to use DD4 is beyond me. Your stubbornness is not only wasting the work you’ve put in (your prerogative), but perhaps more importantly you are wasting all the work your team put in as well (not your prerogative).
So congratulations, you’ve alienated yet another modder.
Unless something changes, I will not use DD4 in my mods. That is all.  

[Kimy]

Well, I tried to explain my point of view. That's...really all. But if you hope that ZAP dependency will be ever back, let me tell you one thing - no, it will not. Never. Ever. I am 100% convinced that it was and is the right thing to do for DD, for reasons I tried to explain in my earlier postings. I don't settle on least common denominators. And I don't keep around stuff for no good reason other than "it always has been done that way!". I shoot for the best solution, not the oldest. ZAP's bondage code is both obsolete and dead. Move on! If you can't, fine. Then don't. Cling to your outdated stuff as long as you wish. Some beings adapt to change. Some do not. The ones that do not, tend to become extinct. Ask the dinos! The rest of the world will move on...

 

Who am I to judge? *shrug*

 

PS: I couldn't use ZAP keywords for DD devices even if I wanted to. ZAP doesn't cover a healthy portion of all device types available in DD. I guess that's because that mod has been dead for 2-3 years now, or so...

[DonQuiWho]

'ZAP doesn't cover a healthy portion of all device types available in DD. I guess that's because that mod has been dead for 2-3 years now, or so... '

 

I wouldn't want to be seen to be arguing with Kimy on her thoughts about ZAP's underlying core mechanics and scripting - I'm too frightened to do that! - but while she may well be right in that those are a bit 'frozen in time', so to speak, it might be fair to add that the work t.ara has been doing on the furniture asset modelling etc now included in ZAP 8+ is pretty good, have been improving a lot as he tests out new ideas, and he should get proper recognition for that. 

 

Everyone's time is limited, and comment content narrows, and I'm sure that not being mentioned was just an oversight

 

A lot of us common users will probably still be using ZAP for some time to get access to those assets (egs Tyrant99 and Musje are using the newer stuff nicely), as long as ZAP growth doesn't bloat so much that it kills FNIS' capability to handle the animation volumes it generates. 

 

I don't profess to understand exactly what the relationship between the original ZAP 'core' is and the addons, but at some point in the future, if parts are able to be 'discreetly isolated', it may be sensible for t.ara to think on developing a FOMOD that allowed people to install separate 'chunks' of ZAP, eg the furniture, the dances, etc, so that we can minimise both our game content, and the animation volumes hit, by excluding things we don't need or want.  The 'dance mats' would be my first exclusion! 

 

That's my personal tuppenceworth, FWIW

[CGi]

in my opinion it's about time to merge ZAP into DD.

ZAP devices and furniture are devious enough to justify a merge of those two and it solves the problem with the fork of ZAP as well as some outdated, conflicting and duplicated mechanics.
Would allow focusing all efforts on one mod to create a more unified BDSM environment for mods to make use of.

[Veladarius]

2 hours ago, CGi said:

in my opinion it's about time to merge ZAP into DD.

ZAP devices and furniture are devious enough to justify a merge of those two and it solves the problem with the fork of ZAP as well as some outdated, conflicting and duplicated mechanics.
Would allow focusing all efforts on one mod to create a more unified BDSM environment for mods to make use of.

I for one am not comfortable with the thought of handing over ZAP to Kimy especially since she doesn't care about it. I'd rather it remain a separate resource that can expand and grow on its own. As for her argument that it does not have enough keywords to cover the DD items that can be fairly easily solved. At this point I have no issues with ZAP v8 under t.ara and have no problems with it so far though I don't use its device system but for people wanting a simpler system it is a viable alternative as I understand it.

 

As for breaking ZAP into modules that would be a major burden on t.ara as well as modders that use a lot of it. So long as I find ZAP v8 to be stable during my continued work on the latest version of CD there is a real possibility that I will include ZAP v8 as a requirement.

[bicobus]

8 hours ago, Kimy said:

Well, I tried to explain my point of view.

We understand your point of view.

8 hours ago, Kimy said:

ZAP's bondage code is both obsolete and dead.

Do you have an alternative for furnitures? I mean, really, if it is obsolete there has to be an alternative. That's what everybody here wants to know: whether you throw away a working but old API arbitrarily or if you actually have something to replace it. From what I understood in this dialogue is that Inte needs ZAP because of the furnitures and requires the tags for ZAP and DD to understand each other. It's not a matter of who's got the biggest and newest dick, but how the dicks get used in parallel however old and wrinkled they are.

[Tyrant99]

8 hours ago, Kimy said:

PS: I couldn't use ZAP keywords for DD devices even if I wanted to. ZAP doesn't cover a healthy portion of all device types available in DD. I guess that's because that mod has been dead for 2-3 years now, or so...

 

6 hours ago, donkeywho said:

I wouldn't want to be seen to be arguing with Kimy on her thoughts about ZAP's underlying core mechanics and scripting - I'm too frightened to do that! - but while she may well be right in that those are a bit 'frozen in time', so to speak, it might be fair to add that the work t.ara has been doing on the furniture asset modelling etc now included in ZAP 8+ is pretty good, have been improving a lot as he tests out new ideas, and he should get proper recognition for that. 

 

I take Kimy's criticisms of ZAP in this regard to be about ZAP's script handling of lockable wearables and not T.ara's work on ZAP 8 as T.ara has not really touched the scripts and has primarily been involved in adding Furnitures and Furniture Animations.

 

There were some previous attacks on T.ara's work, which I felt were unwarranted, that's why I chipped in originally...

 

That said, as to which is better script-wise for lockable wearables, DD or the old ZAP scripts? I would say, from a strictly practical perspective, DD scripts win hands down. I have gone through both sets of scripts, and I'm speaking independenly as I'm not in anybody's camp, but the old ZAP scripts were pre a lot of SKSE functions which DD makes some clever use of, so DD scripts are simply more robust and better. Not to mention the universal compatability side of things because of how things are generally being implemented for lockables in various Mods around LL. - Again, making DD script-handling the better decision for practical reasons.

Obviously there's some stuff going on between Inte and Kimy that I don't know anything about. (Nor do I want to get involved in). I am also very much of the opinion that Inte should do whatever Inte wants to do...

 

But calling things the way I see them, that's my two cents.

 

[Kimy]

1 hour ago, bicobus said:

Do you have an alternative for furnitures? I mean, really, if it is obsolete there has to be an alternative. That's what everybody here wants to know: whether you throw away a working but old API arbitrarily or if you actually have something to replace it. From what I understood in this dialogue is that Inte needs ZAP because of the furnitures and requires the tags for ZAP and DD to understand each other. It's not a matter of who's got the biggest and newest dick, but how the dicks get used in parallel however old and wrinkled they are.

As for furniture, we're working on that. We're pretty decided that DD is going provide its own furniture component.

 

And to clarify, by "obsolete, outdated and dead" I meant the restraints implementation in ZAP, NOT the art assets. There is no good reason not to use ZAP's assets (why wouldn't you, they are good!), but there are a LOT of good reasons not to use its bondage code anymore. The alternative you asked me for this is already there, and has been for years. It's called DD. I still can't wrap my head around the idea why anyone would still want to use ZAP's bondage API, when something is available that's more advanced and more powerful in every possible regard. Inte could easily switch POP to use DD's keywords, and the conversion could even largely be done automatically. He doesn't -need- ZAP's API. It can't do anything DD can't do better. He keeps using ZAP code and keywords around because he -wants- to, and our disagreement is over the circumstance that we chose to no longer support that dead horse that's ZAP's bondage API. Which is something we announced to do around a year ago, if not longer. It's not that we pulled the rug from under him without ample warning. But apparently I am evil because I removed deprecated and useless code from DD.

Now, I can and will not tell Inte what framework to use. But I refuse to accept blame for his stuff not working with DD and DD content mods, when he's refusing to use it and insists on using alternative code instead. That's his choice and that's that.

[CGi]

i doubt that someone uses a specific framework just because she or he wants to.

There's always a reason for a decission like this. So i ask myself what this discission is based on and if or how it can be solved.

[Kimy]

45 minutes ago, CGi said:

i doubt that someone uses a specific framework just because she or he wants to.

There's always a reason for a decission like this. So i ask myself what this discission is based on and if or how it can be solved.

I guess it's a case of "But it has always been that way!!!", really. Mind you that PO is one of the older mods around, so I guess that explains that?

 

It can be solved in two ways exactly:

 

1. Inte sticks with ZAP's API and accepts PO not working well with DD and any mod using it. And if I understand it right, that means keeping DD Equip from updating to newer DD versions, too.

2. Inte updates the bondage code in PO to recognize DD keywords in addition or instead of ZAP keywords.

 

It's his decision and his alone. But I said repeatedly that bringing back a dependency on the very API that DD made obsolete years ago, and NOBODY but him is still insisting to use is not an option. Sure, he can continue to blame ME for DD not working well with a mod that's using a competing/alternative API. But it won't change my stance one bit. We discussed the ZAP question for a long time in the DD team and in the end we -unanimously- agreed to drop it as a DD dependency. It will not be reversed. Because it was and is the right decision. That's really the end of that. DD4 got a new major version number because it's not perfectly backwards compatible. And that includes support of ZAP keywords. It was the first time in years we made such a move, and every now and then that just happens in software development, even if we try very hard to avoid forcing our users to update their code. Microsoft depended on MSDOS in (consumer) Windows for a very long time, but eventually it cut it loose - because it was obsolete. We did the same with ZAP. I am not sure why this should be bad. It's called "progress". I guess MS would have a "lolwut???" moment too if you'd ask them to bring back MSDOS dependency, but that's seriously the same thing Inte is asking me to do.

[CGi]

i'll not pretend i know why he has chosen to do it this way because i have absolutly no clue.
But i'm sure there's something in ZAP that DD might be missing or was missing and that he made use of and patching up mods is tedious especially if you switch to a different framework. So what we need is a consent because life is already a chain of causalities.

And btw: There was an active petition to bring MS-DOS 7 (not the one used in Win9x and ME) back and MS actually considered it but the source code was lost as they told us. But they gave us more insight into it's abilities like being native 32bit and replicating the multi tasking capabilities of CP/M. But that's off-topic enough. ^^

[Kimy]

4 hours ago, CGi said:

But i'm sure there's something in ZAP that DD might be missing

I dare him to name my any such feature. I can't remotely think of anything POP ever could need, that DD couldn't do.

 

But...just assuming for a second that there is such a thing....chances are that I'd be willing to add it to DD. I offered assistance before and I mean it.

 

I am just not going to revive dead horses.