SE Compatibility Tracking (Apr 23)

[Yinkle]

23 minutes ago, fred200 said:

Bear in mind that is a very specific plugin for that author's specific mods. It is not general purpose; make sure you have a mod that needs it.

It's actually a very useful utility for adding extra functionality to skse, my mod Sexlab LightMeUp wouldn't work without it. I doubt whether having it installed when not required would do any harm either since it just adds some global functions and doesn't actively do anything by itself.

 

Edit: much like PapyrusUtil Really but with diferent functionality.

[ChaosTheorist]

1 hour ago, Pfiffy said:

What means NOP???

Sorry, it's a computer term: the NOP machine-language instruction causes the computer to do nothing other than waste some (typically small) number of cycles. The machine state after the instruction is exactly the same as the state before it.

[Just Don't]

10 minutes ago, ChaosTheorist said:

Sorry, it's a computer term: the NOP machine-language instruction causes the computer to do nothing other than waste some (typically small) number of cycles. The machine state after the instruction is exactly the same as the state before it.

Oh I thought you went for a nope and missed an e. Now your explanation makes way more sense.

[ChaosTheorist]

1 hour ago, dontknowdontcaredontask said:

I think this topic has been discussed for so long there is no point in doing so again. There is no new information on this. 

The latter is definitely the case. Unfortunately, it in no way implies the former.

1) Yes, the difference--or lack thereof--between Forms 43 and 44 has been known for years.

2) There are still lots of people out there--including extremely knowledgeable people like Arthmoor--beating the "you must never use Form 43 plugins in SkyrimSE!!!" drum.

3) There are still lots of people (as demonstrated by the current discussion) who are unaware of the full story.

 

Your statement is equivalent to saying "I know, and everyone I've ever met knows, that 4 x 4 = 16, so there's no point teaching multiplication any more."

 

Yes, it would be much more convenient if everyone in the world already knew everything I know (and agreed with everything I think, of course ?); regrettably we aren't quite there yet.

 

OK, maybe not quite everything I know....

[Just Don't]

12 minutes ago, ChaosTheorist said:

Your statement is equivalent to saying "I know, and everyone I've ever met knows, that 4 x 4 = 16, so there's no point teaching multiplication any more."

 

My point is we're not getting new information in the discussion. Whenever this matter appears we quote the same people in the same threads and confirm what we already know. People willing to take the known evidence move on and people who chose to believe the old you shall convert mods to form 44 as Bethesda told us to do so, will keep believing it nonetheless. So in 2-3 months we get a new wave of forms wars, we get nothing new from it. Rinse and repeat. But such is life (and if somehow in the future we get new info, sure that would be great).

[Yinkle]

@Pfiffy The only times when I convert a form 43 plugin to form 44 is if I want to add/remove/change something in the plugin and it can't be done in XEdit, (for example placing or moving an object in a cell) the SE CK auto converts plugins so it can't be avoided in this case.

[Pfiffy]

6 minutes ago, ChaosTheorist said:

The latter is definitely the case. Unfortunately, it in no way implies the former.

1) Yes, the difference--or lack thereof--between Forms 43 and 44 has been known for years.

2) There are still lots of people out there--including extremely knowledgeable people like Arthmoor--beating the "you must never use Form 43 plugins in SkyrimSE!!!" drum.

3) There are still lots of people (as demonstrated by the current discussion) who are unaware of the full story.

 

Your statement is equivalent to saying "I know, and everyone I've ever met knows, that 4 x 4 = 16, so there's no point teaching multiplication any more."

 

Yes, it would be much more convenient if everyone in the world already knew everything I know (and agreed with everything I think, of course ?); regrettably we aren't quite there yet.

 

OK, maybe not quite everything I know....

Especially Arthmoor should know, that simply resaving does not do the job, and the SE Version of his own well known Alternate start breaks if it gets resaved. (I did it accidentially while working DCL) Is it just that some of the Gods of modding want that users bring themself in trouble so that they could help them out and so proove that they are gods of modding?

[ChaosTheorist]

1 hour ago, fred200 said:

Bear in mind that is a very specific plugin for that author's specific mods. It is not general purpose; make sure you have a mod that needs it.

Not sure why you say that. P3PESSE (yeah, I just made that one up) is absolutely "general purpose" (it's a bunch of utility functions that anyone can use), and three quarters of the "Mods requiring this file" items listed on the page are not from P3.

[ChaosTheorist]

17 minutes ago, dontknowdontcaredontask said:

My point is we're not getting new information in the discussion.

I agree.

 

99.999...% of the discussions that have ever taken place are not about "new information"; they're about providing existing information as new knowledge to people who don't already have it. People should never be deterred from seeking new knowledge.

 

Though it's OK to...encourage...the lazy ones to do their own research....

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, dontknowdontcaredontask said:

No, Nope. Not, Don't. A negative answer.

Actually this is an assembler instruction from the very earliest days.

NOP = No Operation = Does nothing.

 

NOP was sometimes used to adjust timing of code execution, for example, when waiting for an IO port to become valid, or to make empty space in the code so that debugging code could be added and removed without changing the in-memory layout. Similarly, it could be used to overwrite call instuctions and such when debugging assembler.

 

It has no etymological relation to a phrase like "Nope" or a generic negative answer, it has a specific technical meaning of "code that does nothing".

[Just Don't]

21 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

<>

Yeah, ChaosTheorist already clarified that in #5665 and I acknowledged it in # 5666.

 

Nonetheless, the knowledge is valued and has been acquired.

[orgs1n]

22 hours ago, Pfiffy said:

Can someo native speaker write a clear comment about this damn rotten 44/43 header thing?  

Mator's explanation (top rated answer in this reddit post) is crystal clear.

[Just Don't]

12 minutes ago, orgs1n said:

Mator's explanation (top rated answer in this reddit post) is crystal clear.

And same mator's explanation about why the "It's your call, but why risk your save games/game stability when you can quickly and easily convert plugins to Form Version 44?" was an exaggeration without evidence. The few record types that change affect only some mods and the result for not converting them will never be game instability or save corruption. If there is any new evidence I'd love to see it to learn and fix any bad practices.

[Pfiffy]

9 minutes ago, dontknowdontcaredontask said:

And same mator's explanation about why the "It's your call, but why risk your save games/game stability when you can quickly and easily convert plugins to Form Version 44?" was an exaggeration without evidence. The few record types that change affect only some mods and the result for not converting them will never be game instability or save corruption. If there is any new evidence I'd love to see it to learn and fix any bad practices.

And at this point we are at: If it is easy you don't need to do it, if it is not easy, leave it to ppl who know what they are doing...

[Just Don't]

12 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

If it is easy you don't need to do it, if it is not easy, leave it to ppl who know what they are doing...

If it is easy= it's always easy. You just open the esp in CK and do 2 clicks to save and exit. That's the whole process as Bethesda recommends. The thing is that apparently in this short and easy process some mods have features broken (and about this I've not seen much evidence apart from users reporting mods not working with a plugin in form 44 v/s people getting the mod to work with the plugin from LE as it is, aka in form 43). Most people won't have a clue if something broke or won't work in game until they go in game and waste a couple of hours until they notice X mod or Y feature isn't working. So yeah, leaving it to people who know what they're doing seems like the most reasonable approach here. I don't see any direct benefit from porting every mod, or any mod if it has proven to work fine in form 43.

[Pfiffy]

17 minutes ago, dontknowdontcaredontask said:

If it is easy= it's always easy. You just open the esp in CK and do 2 clicks to save and exit. That's the whole process as Bethesda recommends. The thing is that apparently in this short and easy process some mods have features broken (and about this I've not seen much evidence apart from users reporting mods not working with a plugin in form 44 v/s people getting the mod to work with the plugin from LE as it is, aka in form 43). Most people won't have a clue if something broke or won't work in game until they go in game and waste a couple of hours until they notice X mod or Y feature isn't working. So yeah, leaving it to people who know what they're doing seems like the most reasonable approach here. I don't see any direct benefit from porting every mod, or any mod if it has proven to work fine in form 43.

This is what I mean. By simply resaving you can even break mods that have been written with the new CK. But I'm not talking about pro and cons, I'm asking for a some sort of understandable statement that clarifys this. I have been saying that you don't have to resave each mod and had been fighting this out for too long. Even here a lot of ppl started discussions with me about that not long ago. Now I'm feeling a bit like walking on the frontline and being under fire by both sides: The resavers and the non-resavers. 

[Yinkle]

11 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

This is what I mean. By simply resaving you can even break mods that have been written with the new CK. But I'm not talking about pro and cons, I'm asking for a some sort of understandable statement that clarifys this. I have been saying that you don't have to resave each mod and had been fighting this out for too long. Even here a lot of ppl started discussions with me about that not long ago. Now I'm feeling a bit like walking on the frontline and being under fire by both sides: The resavers and the non-resavers. 

It's fairly simple really, don't open a mod in the ck and resave it unless you know what you are doing regardless of form version. Most of the time it really doesn't need to be done unless the SSE version does something new. I've seen plenty broken sse conversions due to people resaving to form 44 "just because". 

[Just Don't]

Quote

The only real issue I have actual knowledge of occurring related to form version 44 is water not having flow direction, as that was added in form version 44. Mods which have WATR records in form version 43 won't have these subrecords and thus won't have water flow direction if their WATR records "win".

The other records I mentioned there could have similar issues, I've just never seen it myself. E.g. weathers reference LENS/VOLI records, so if a mod changes weathers it could make godrays disappear. Again not a huge issue though.

I'd just look (in xEdit) for these type of records if you want to be sure a porting requires changes to the esp. And I would triple check no other changes or errors were made in CK. I haven't found any mention to other records that require form 44 (and if the form isn't changed then the worst thing you'll get is missing god rays or static water, not broken mods).

 

Edit: @Pfiffy I know that for you this might be a relevant matter as you dedicate your time and effort to port mods over SE. And nailing the technical procedure and doing things right is the best scenario as you'll be providing functional mods. Problem is I think there will be no definitive and universal answer. This issue involves evidence, lack of evidence, anecdotal information, beliefs and opinions, etc. For what we know until now it's unnecessary in 99% of the times, the technical details are in mator's post as he works on a regular basis with game records in his zEdit/mator Smash projects. That's the info I base my own stand in this matter and the most understandable explanation I've found (and I think I talked to you about this in a previous post, perhaps you should try to talk to him personally to clarify your doubts). Sorry if my previous comment came off as rude, it wasn't my intention to make you feel attacked.

[foetus]

Just my two cents. First though, thanks Pfiffy for making a lot of conversions and all the thankless admin stuff you do. 

 

2nd, If it aint broke dont fix it! Everyone should take anything said by Arthmoor and the like (you know the people of whom I speak) with a grain of salt. If they had it their way, we'd all be using only mods that they approve, and only the mods they like and deem worthy. Why don't they leave the old versions of their files up that were compatible with older unmaintained mods? Why is it when you use their advice or their overreaching mods and patches you end up having to install patches for the patches, and then download mods you never intended to use and then have to patch those, or worse, you can't use other mods at all... and now you are stuck using only mods that this group of small minded control freaks authored with no regard for some of the most popular mods. Most of what these jokers do nowadays is not "fixing" or small patches, it is a poor attempt at optimization of a blackbox for thier own purposes. They are putting up their own blackbox around SSE and, they do not play well with others. They are trying to reverse engineer a blackbox and, while they have had some success early on, the last couple of years all they do is cause problems. At the end of the day, they don't really KNOW for certain what is inside the box.

 

My advice is to stick with the small focused mods, utilities and fixes and, to know your ini files and how to tweak them - so that your own set-up works the way you want. 

 

For me, AFT and Sexlab stuff (my corner peices for modding along with FG & AA, CBBE & XPMSE) run fine with 43 and the amount of work it would take for me or anyone else to convert everything properly is not worth the investment or maybe not even possible - this is not a good case for the amount of work and the ROI. Too much work for no real benefit. I have yet to see these random CTD's they speak of or any full explanation with detailed examples of CTD's caused by 43's. They talk with authority but they are not THE the authority. I'd rather Sexlab and AFT work than having all form 44's, that CRF and RDO works or, having the latest update to USSEP (which breaks other mods). IMO, Sexlab is the best overall source for modding in general as well as being the best and most informed community of modders that give the best advice and most useful mods. 

[Pfiffy]

Spoiler

28 minutes ago, foetus said:

Just my two cents. First though, thanks Pfiffy for making a lot of conversions and all the thankless admin stuff you do. 

 

2nd, If it aint broke dont fix it! Everyone should take anything said by Arthmoor and the like (you know the people of whom I speak) with a grain of salt. If they had it their way, we'd all be using only mods that they approve, and only the mods they like and deem worthy. Why don't they leave the old versions of their files up that were compatible with older unmaintained mods? Why is it when you use their advice or their overreaching mods and patches you end up having to install patches for the patches, and then download mods you never intended to use and then have to patch those, or worse, you can't use other mods at all... and now you are stuck using only mods that this group of small minded control freaks authored with no regard for some of the most popular mods. Most of what these jokers do nowadays is not "fixing" or small patches, it is a poor attempt at optimization of a blackbox for thier own purposes. They are putting up their own blackbox around SSE and, they do not play well with others. They are trying to reverse engineer a blackbox and, while they have had some success early on, the last couple of years all they do is cause problems. At the end of the day, they don't really KNOW for certain what is inside the box.

 

My advice is to stick with the small focused mods, utilities and fixes and, to know your ini files and how to tweak them - so that your own set-up works the way you want. 

 

For me, AFT and Sexlab stuff (my corner peices for modding along with FG & AA, CBBE & XPMSE) run fine with 43 and the amount of work it would take for me or anyone else to convert everything properly is not worth the investment or maybe not even possible - this is not a good case for the amount of work and the ROI. Too much work for no real benefit. I have yet to see these random CTD's they speak of or any full explanation with detailed examples of CTD's caused by 43's. They talk with authority but they are not THE the authority. I'd rather Sexlab and AFT work than having all form 44's, that CRF and RDO works or, having the latest update to USSEP (which breaks other mods). IMO, Sexlab is the best overall source for modding in general as well as being the best and most informed community of modders that give the best advice and most useful mods. 

 

Thank you, but...

 

Ok, I'm sure that whoever makes it to Loverslab for SE mods will end up with at least one of my ports. but for the important ones of all the ports running under my name have been a community work. Be it DD or ZAZ or CF. All of them had been a community work at the beginning. My Modding abilities are limited compared with other ppl. I can't write scripts, And I still don't know how to make my armors jiggle with bodyslide: I became famous for doing stupid things and for asking around for permissions.

Porting mods is one thing, but for real development it takes ppl with much more abilities than I have to offer.

 

I wonder if we could get back to that point where ppl joined together to make things like CF working. We are refurbishing old stuff, while the real development is still done for LE. 

 

[General Neondaze]

Re-save/Don't re-save?

This question will be asked forever!

 

The way I see it, some people have read one post that says re-save. Some ppl have researched some more and have become confused. Others have researched and are adamant that you shouldn't re-save.

 

I originally fell into the first category and then wondered why I was having random issues. More research and learning how to use xEdit confirmed, for me, that re-saving to form 44 is more trouble than its worth. I can't give a lot of technical as to why, just share my experience.

 

What I would say is everyone is entitled to do their own thing, but those who convert, despite opinion to the contrary, shouldn't come running with complaints.

 

@Pfiffy, Thank you so much for the conversions you do, and your contributions to many threads. From reading your comments alone I have learnt a lot.

[4nk8r]

My whole issue with the 43/44 conversion boils down to the lack of empirical data to back up their claims. From the reddit post, "If the plugin includes any of the above records or subrecords it NEEDS to be updated, else unknown/unpredictable problems may occur."  That statement is absolutely without merit.  Bad science.  The entire time this debate has been raging (YEARS!!!!), not a single v43 mod has been sourced as having/causing an issue when used unconverted in SSE.  Not one.  If I'm wrong, please correct me.  If there is one, we can point at that mod as proof and shut down the whole conversation.  Just. One. Fucking. Mod.  Conversely, there are plenty of examples posted in the various forums of what can go wrong attempting to convert.

[Tlam99]

1 minute ago, 4nk8r said:

My whole issue with the 43/44 conversion boils down to the lack of empirical data to back up their claims. From the reddit post, "If the plugin includes any of the above records or subrecords it NEEDS to be updated, else unknown/unpredictable problems may occur."  That statement is absolutely without merit.  Bad science.  The entire time this debate has been raging (YEARS!!!!), not a single v43 mod has been sourced as having/causing an issue when used unconverted in SSE.  Not one.  If I'm wrong, please correct me.  If there is one, we can point at that mod as proof and shut down the whole conversation.  Just. One. Fucking. Mod.  Conversely, there are plenty of examples posted in the various forums of what can go wrong.

you won't find one, because 43 is a subset of 44

[YojimboRatchet]

On 9/5/2020 at 11:18 AM, Lupine00 said:

But I guess if people think that SLS makes SLD unnecessary, I don't need to bother releasing any updates to it, so that's a bit less bother for me.

 

i use disparity, i like it very much and suits my purposes completely.. Survival is great but too big for me now, and i prefer the PC specific settings that Disparity offers...

[4nk8r]

47 minutes ago, YojimboRatchet said:

 

i use disparity, i like it very much and suits my purposes completely.. Survival is great but too big for me now, and i prefer the PC specific settings that Disparity offers...

I need to give Disparity another try.  The volume of MCM options put me off the last time I looked at it.