MrUnimportant Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 Just out of curiosity, demanding money for mod content, doesn't that collide with the copyright? Could Bethesta revoke your license on Steam if they ever would do a mod check and you have mods on, which violate the law, that you can't make profit without paying a royalty? Opinions? Me for my part, I do not want to lose my Skyrim.. by far the game that keeps me most entertained. I took all Kom anims off the system so far.. anything else I should deinstall as it moved on Patreon? Uni
Ernest Lemmingway Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 Legally speaking, it's not a violation of the EULA to host mods on Patreon because you're not really paying for mods directly but instead are making donations to the author. It's a legal loophole that Bethesda can't really do anything about without completely rewriting said EULA. If/when they do that, their public relations are going to take another beating. I don't know if Bethesda would revoke a Steam license for their game. Again, that would destroy their already shaky public relations and could easily be seen as a violation of privacy. Programs like Mod Organizer load mods through a shell, not Skyrim itself, so a mod check wouldn't detect anything managed by it. Nexus Mod Manager loads mod through Skyrim's own mod manager capabilities so any mods installed through it would be detected. If you're really worried, just run Steam in Offline Mode.
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 You're not going to loose your Skyrim because you install any kind of stuff lol.. ^^ I do not think there is a spy to know what you use as mods. (maybe NMM but there is nothing to do with beths) In this case is close to privacy and they can't spy what you do on your computer... If they do, they will not have any legal weight and the customer is protected by law. So if they do something like that they kill their game, their reputation, and many modders are going to let this game die.. Remember it's modders who keep this game alive... The only guys who risk something here it's me... But it's a good year that I do that, and many other have older patreons and it's fine too.. Stop to be paranoîd because you hear one or another saying anything.. lol Many do not like to see patrons and it would make them happy to see this kind of thing happen, so this type of rumor circulates to scare people .. Just do not be naive .. Enjoy the stuff and ignore some "urban legend"..
guk Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 54 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said: Legally speaking, it's not a violation of the EULA to host mods on Patreon because you're not really paying for mods directly but instead are making donations to the author. It's a legal loophole that Bethesda can't really do anything about without completely rewriting said EULA. If/when they do that, their public relations are going to take another beating. See this thread https://www.loverslab.com/topic/89534-omg-the-hypocrisy/ This from Jleavey; their Community manager. Recently we’ve received an influx of queries related to the ability to receive funding for mod projects, including crowd sourced sites like KickStarter and Patreon. Per the language defined in the our EULA for the Creation Kit, this practice is not allowed. In section 1 of the EULA, the following details are outline: B. No Fees for Use. In exchange for the Editor being provided to you free of charge, You agree that You will not charge or require, directly or indirectly, a fee or other consideration for others to download, install or use Your Game Mods, including without limitation selling, licensing or other commercial distribution or commercial exploitation (e.g., by renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, disseminating, uploading, downloading, transmitting, whether on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise) of any Game Mods without the express prior written consent of an authorized representative of ZeniMax. This includes distributing a Game Mods as part of any compilation You and/or other users may create. You further agree not to charge, accept or solicit, directly or indirectly, fees or non-monetary contributions for developing or creating Game Mods, including without limitation fees collected through “crowd funding.” However, the foregoing limitations in this Section shall not apply if and to the extent such agreement violates applicable law. You further agree that You are only permitted to distribute the Game Mods to users who have purchased the Product through authorized and legitimate distribution channels, solely for use with such users’ own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws Bottom line, if users have to financially subscribe to gain access to your files, it is against the EULA.
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 On the other hand there is the creation club which is much worse than the system of patreon... But They are not going to do something, imagine the numbers of people they are going to loose, there is a lot of patreons selling stuff, not even Early access... I'm in early access, people support my work and get acces to my wip.. And nothing force me to release my stuff, I do not do that for beths, I could made animations on this game and just made videos.. Less again for Skyrim.. Beths have already worst and worst reputation.. If they want to fully kill their game, they know what they have to do.. But If one day they want to piss me off, I'm simply release only videos of my animations on Patreon.. Stop all public releases of my stuff, and packs it's a gift only released in private to thanks the people supporting videos.
Zynisch Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 It's a very difficult topic. I know a case of a german Comic called "Shakes & Fidget" They made comics for World of Warcraft and sold some Merchandise. After a few years Blizz got notice of it and stopped their Merch. They also had to take every WoW related Content (almost everything) out of their free Comics. I don't know exactly how thats the case with Patreon, but you as an consumer of those paid mods are definetly not going to be punished for using them.
Hayleyrose2323 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 I don't believe in selling mods. Personally I am a bit more forgiving towards it when its original content, but at the same time, I feel its a bad practice and just causes more and more problems with modding in general. Despite all that, I don't believe in the excuse "Well they won't do it because of all the people they will lose". If they want to, they will do something about it. I highly doubt there gonna let people push them around when dealing with there own game.
pinky6225 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 Has anyone ever actually heard of a EULA being tested in court? I've not and until one is and is successful i'd not consider them to be worth the paper they are written on
Kimy Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 You cannot distribute derived works of Beth's copyrighted content without consenting to the very terms allowing you to do so in the first place, so I'd think in this particular case, the EULA would be enforcible. That doesn't mean that all clauses of it would stand in court (some could be viewed as unreasonable, such as the "no donations" clause), but I don't think any modder would want to fund the legal costs for defending themselves against a horde of corporate lawyers having literally nothing better to do. Also the creation club doesn't compare to paid modding, since Beth owns the rights. They can do whatever they want because they make the rules. So far, so bad. I have never heard of any company going after a modder's tip jar though, and that's what most Patreons still are. I guess the resulting PR mess wouldn't be exactly what they want. That and in the end, I don't think they could really stop the practice, because all we'd need to do is rephrasing our Patreon pages and remove direct mention of Beth's content. It would be virtually impossible for them to prove that I received that $5 tip because I made a Skyrim mod when I don't even mention it on that page and no pay-walled content is otherwise offered there. People putting their stuff behind an actual paywall, now that's a different affair. I wouldn't be too surprised if Beth would eventually decide to end that practice, particularly since these modders now basically compete against Beth and their Creation Club business model. Which is why I hope the pay-walling modders don't push the line any more than they already do. Because if Beth decides they need to step in, we will probably ALL suffer from the Fallout (pun intended).
Ernest Lemmingway Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 5 hours ago, guk said: See this thread https://www.loverslab.com/topic/89534-omg-the-hypocrisy/ Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with that bit of legal prep work. Quietly sow the seeds so no one can legally contest it...and watch as the reality of it destroys the one thing that's kept their games afloat. 23 minutes ago, Kimy said: People putting their stuff behind an actual paywall, now that's a different affair. I wouldn't be too surprised if Beth would eventually decide to end that practice, particularly since these modders now basically compete against Beth and their Creation Club business model. Which is why I hope the pay-walling modders don't push the line any more than they already do. Because if Beth decides they need to step in, we will probably ALL suffer from the Fallout (pun intended). I don't think Bethesda will end the CC any time soon. They're making enough money off of it to justify its continued existence by catering to those who can't get mods from any other place. Plus the odd modder who contributes to that travesty... If we want to stop modders who put their stuff behind actual paywalls, it would help to know their names so folks can avoid them and their work. People who demand money for their work rather than requesting a donation or tip but still putting stuff out for free. Make those leeches persona non grata and show Bethesda we won't tolerate that sort of thing. At the very least it would neuter one of the major justifications they could use for trying to control mods.
Syndicrat Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 51 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said: If we want to stop modders who put their stuff behind actual paywalls, it would help to know their names so folks can avoid them and their work. People who demand money for their work rather than requesting a donation or tip but still putting stuff out for free. Make those leeches persona non grata and show Bethesda we won't tolerate that sort of thing. At the very least it would neuter one of the major justifications they could use for trying to control mods. Okay, I'll start. On LL and for Skyrim alone, we have: HeroedeLeyenda - selling the uncompressed version of his all-in-one skin pack for 10$ (which includes the work of many other modders; I wonder how they feel about that) Anubiss2167 - holding back finished animations for 2 months unless you pay five fucking dollars a month (and if you pay 3$, you STILL have to wait a month) komotor - also holding back finished animations for 2 months unless you pay 3$ a month (what a deal!) Ed86 - more "early" access for "donators" thegooglyman - yet more "early" access if you cough up the cash every month There are probably more, and in the Sims sections there's virtually no one who isn't charging for early not artificially late access. Personally, I think everyone with a Paytreon should just be banned at this point (if they don't throw a tantrum and self destruct when they find out how easily people and bots leak their shit). I'm not sure if there's anyone on Patreon at all who isn't abusing the service to sell shit. Even Ashal can't resist giving special privileges to "donators", though he's very slightly more justified to do so in that hosting Loverslab is a service that requires a concrete amount of money.
Naked Ekans Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 My uncle that works at Bethesda said we will have some unpleasant news this E3.
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Hayleyrose2323 said: I don't believe in selling mods. Personally I am a bit more forgiving towards it when its original content, but at the same time, I feel its a bad practice and just causes more and more problems with modding in general. Despite all that, I don't believe in the excuse "Well they won't do it because of all the people they will lose". If they want to, they will do something about it. I highly doubt there gonna let people push them around when dealing with there own game. No, that do not cause problem if people are fair, like many here.. Look, we started something with Delzaron, it's something that would probably not have happened if we did not have our patreons.. We are two fair guys, I think well, I even help him with his patreon... Yeah They have already lose people with all their shits and if they "break" more things bah there is probably more modders bored with that, less modders = less users. Even if there is always a flow of new modders, the olders and more skilled go see elsewhere, etc.. So like more and more now, mainly the intersting that your are going to have is even more followers and presets rather more serious stuff. 20 minutes ago, Syndicrat said: Okay, I'll start. On LL and for Skyrim alone, we have: HeroedeLeyenda - selling the uncompressed version of his all-in-one skin pack for 10$ (which includes the work of many other modders; I wonder how they feel about that) Anubiss2167 - holding back finished animations for 2 months unless you pay five fucking dollars a month (and if you pay 3$, you STILL have to wait a month) komotor - also holding back finished animations for 2 months unless you pay 3$ a month (what a deal!) Ed86 - more "early" access for "donators" thegooglyman - yet more "early" access if you cough up the cash every month There are probably more, and in the Sims sections there's virtually no one who isn't charging for early not artificially late access. Personally, I think everyone with a Paytreon should just be banned at this point (if they don't throw a tantrum and self destruct when they find out how easily people and bots leak their shit). I'm not sure if there's anyone on Patreon at all who isn't abusing the service to sell shit. Even Ashal can't resist giving special privileges to "donators", though he's very slightly more justified to do so in that hosting Loverslab is a service that requires a concrete amount of money. Request a ban from someone having only a post, created and contributed for ..nothing... Mhhhh. Create, work and dedicate your time for the others, maybe afer you can come here drop your 2cents.. There is no reason to ban, there is also a shitstorm on my topic about that and early access are fine for LL. Otherwise you can ban almost all sims modders, animators and even turbodriver... HeroesdeLeyenda is not allowed to share his link here because his patreon is unfair... And I do not support this kind of patreons, like some just took existing stuff, combine or convert textures or clothes.. They are all expensive, this is not their ressources, there is not hard work, and they do not care about the people, just want the money.. But you want to see insane things? The guys who made videos of all our free stuff and ask 5$ to 10$ to access to the videos, ask 50$ to give a list of mods and assist the installation, that work well for them. And the original creators are not or rarely credited etc... So check outside LL the practices of some and know why some creators also change their mind... In waiting in my side I create original animations, build all my objects and tons of ressources for my own use, I made videos, hire some VA and also SFM stuff sometime.. When I ask 2 to 3 or even 5$ to access to my stuff, I do far more and I'm more cheap than assholes users just installing mods and made videos to sell... I need the game to let the people use my stuff, and I do that to please my fans and the people but I could very well just made rendering or work on another game.. As said some are fair with their prices and want to stay close to their fans, since some other just think about money. and personnaly I do that professionaly, I'm in a country 3 to 4 time more expensive than some and the patreon is a part of my salary... So mhhh I need a bit to live too... And anyway the stuff always became public, so there no true paywall it's early access, if people want the stuff sooner they can support otherwise they wait a bit... My only "paywall" is access to my WIP, but there is incomplete animations and some old project can get out when it's needed like now with Delzaron where some are going to be dev for some quests of the mod. And my higher pledges are literally services for some custom work. Beside my current commissioner want SFM animation so it's not even related to Skyrim... So what the issue? People are hangry because they have to wait? We need to stop kidding because it's exactly the feeling that I have, many people just want stuff directly for free and do not care about the creators behind who put their soul in their work.. Your post is simply a good model of these kind of people who come here only to take stuff like in a superfreemarket, never put a like, never say a thank, never show any support, but come like a nazi when some creators receive something for their work.. Work for years for the others, show me that you made effort to give something to the community, then you can come back to talk with me. And if you work like that for the others and that you made a good work, I'm not going to blame you because you open a patreon... Although I'm a cool guy, here I think I'll probably still seem tough .. But I'm like that when I see this contempt ...
Ernest Lemmingway Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Syndicrat said: There are probably more, and in the Sims sections there's virtually no one who isn't charging for early not artificially late access. Personally, I think everyone with a Paytreon should just be banned at this point (if they don't throw a tantrum and self destruct when they find out how easily people and bots leak their shit). I'm not sure if there's anyone on Patreon at all who isn't abusing the service to sell shit. Even Ashal can't resist giving special privileges to "donators", though he's very slightly more justified to do so in that hosting Loverslab is a service that requires a concrete amount of money. By "demand money for their work rather than requesting a donation or tip but still putting stuff out for free," I did not mean people who put out free versions of their work and give early access to folks who support them on Patreon. Rather it was specifically targeted at people who only provide their work for money with no free versions at all. Those who've worked on their stuff for years without asking for a penny and proven their skill in modding have earned the right to ask for aid on Patreon. People who put out one or two items and then move everything else to Patreon are abusing the idea. I AM NOT CONDEMNING MODDERS ON PATREON. I ACTUALLY SUPPORT SEVERAL MODDERS ON PATREON MYSELF. BUT ONLY IF THEY HAVE PUT IN THEIR DUES PUTTING OUT FREE MODS AND PROVEN THEIR SKILLS DESERVE PATRONAGE. That said, I'm not going to argue about Patreon anymore. EDIT: A thumbs up to Komotor for pointing out the finer details of what it means to ask for patronage. Too many to quote.
Hayleyrose2323 Posted February 14, 2018 Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, komotor said: No, that do not cause problem if people are fair, like many here.. Look, we started something with Delzaron, it's something that would probably not have happened if we did not have our patreons.. We are two fair guys, I think well, I even help him with his patreon... Uh, yes, selling mods do cause problems.(Hence the fact it failed, and hence the fact CC is complete garbage) Doing what you do on the other hand shouldn't be a issue because you don't hide ALL you're content behind a paywall.
Syndicrat Posted February 14, 2018 Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, komotor said: Request a ban from someone having only a post, created and contributed for ..nothing... Mhhhh. Create, work and dedicate your time for the others, maybe afer you can come here drop your 2cents.. This why forums are cancer. Having a consistent identity creates a breeding ground for enormous egos, especially with modders. I'm only posting because very few people here are speaking up against the growing problem of e-begging. I know people don't want to bite the hand that feeds them sex mods, but at some point you have to grow a spine and stop grovelling. 1 hour ago, komotor said: But you want to see insane things? The guys who made videos of all our free stuff and ask 5$ to 10$ to access to the videos, ask 50$ to give a list of mods and assist the installation, that work well for them. And the original creators are not or rarely credited etc... So check outside LL the practices of some and know why some creators also change their mind... I've spent enough time on a certain site to know exactly what kind of bullshit scams people pull with Patreon. Just because you're not as bad as them, and that the moderators turn a blind eye to you, doesn't mean that "early" access models are okay. Did you see HeroedeLeyenda's meltdown when the premium pack was first leaked? He made exactly the same arguments as you - that it's somehow "fair" that users must pay for content, even when the vast majority of modders seem to have no issue releasing everything for free. Tell me, why do you feel the need to give your donators "early" access to your animations? Rather, why do you punish people who don't pay you by making them wait 2 months? What good does that do anyone? Releasing them publicly costs virtually nothing to you. The people who give you money on Patreon are doing it because they think you deserve it. They're not going to stop if you decide to actually obey the "no rewards for donors" rule. Even the people who leak Patreon content (and there are a lot of them) typically have already decided to support those creators. That tiny portion of people who donate are all you'll ever get. And no matter how much you try to extort and guilt-trip everyone else, you won't get people like me to donate - but you will put off those who might. There is no difference to you, the author, between those who can't afford to donate and those who simply don't want to. Punishing everyone who won't donate for whatever reason is not only futile, but shooting yourself in the foot. The fact that (A) KW, WW, and most other Patreon "technically not exclusive" mods are leaked regularly and (B) people are still giving these authors money proves that this "early access" nonsense is unnecessary. Why not try it? Release your animations publicly when they're done for a few months, and see how many pledges you lose. I'll wager very few. I really don't care whether other people donate to mod authors or anyone else, even if I personally think they don't deserve it. But when you start to show contempt for anyone who doesn't give you money and stroke your ego, and constantly push your "donation" model closer and closer to paid mods, that's where I take issue. And it's where the site administration should take issue, too. Sure, maybe you, in particular don't intend to push it further and honestly think this is fair, but your model normalizes holding mods ransom for money. Someone else will take the next inch, and so on until either it take hundreds of dollars a month to access everything ("or you could just wait 2 6 12 24 months; therefore it's still free!"), or Ashal's hand is finally forced and those modders are banned. The content is effectively gone either way. I would much prefer the still relatively few Paytreon modders getting the boot, rather than you slowly poisoning the community by making your behavior the norm. The Sims sections are indeed fully lost (as is their entire modding community), but the Bethesda game sections would still be largely intact if the cancer is removed soon. Of course, even better would be if you and the others voluntarily dispensed with this artificially-late-access bullshit, but I'm not holding my breath.
Guest Posted February 14, 2018 Posted February 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Syndicrat said: blalala Again the nazi speak for nothing, I maintain what I have said about you. You are doing nothing! Do not come speak to me before having doing something.. The prove, you do not even know the process, work and time necessary to do that... little man.. you you deserve to go to the hell.. So we can just work almost full time for you but ask for nothing.. Are you working in life? Are you working for free? Dumbass... Nothing in your brain, also probably no talent, just the able to come say shits... You have no consideration for creators.. So the cancer of this world is people like you..
Syndicrat Posted February 14, 2018 Posted February 14, 2018 2 hours ago, komotor said: Again the nazi speak for nothing, I maintain what I have said about you. You are doing nothing! Do not come speak to me before having doing something.. The prove, you do not even know the process, work and time necessary to do that... little man.. you you deserve to go to the hell.. So we can just work almost full time for you but ask for nothing.. Are you working in life? Are you working for free? Dumbass... Nothing in your brain, also probably no talent, just the able to come say shits... You have no consideration for creators.. So the cancer of this world is people like you.. You know, for a minute there, I thought that maybe calling for all Patreon milkers to be banned was too harsh. That maybe you could be reasoned with, and such strong action would be unnecessary. Guess I was right in the first place. If you had read my post, you would know that I'm not bothered that people choose to donate to you. If they think you deserve a tip, fine. What I said was that punishing people that don't give you money by artificially delaying releases serves absolutely no purpose, even from a standpoint of pure greed. Virtually no one pledges to you, oniki, turbodriver, etc. only because they don't want to wait. They truly think you deserve the money, and you devalue their contributions by acting like you need to punish people who don't want to or can't afford to donate. And make no mistake, that is what you're doing - punishing everyone else. There is no valid reason, none at all, to withhold your work from the public for months on end (or for any "reasonable" amount of time, either). "I don't have to" is not a real reason, unless you also admit that no one owes you anything in exchange for that work, either. You don't want to work for free? Then get a job. Modding is a hobby (and so is most other shit people do on Patreon - otherwise they'd be doing it as a job instead, or selling their work on a real marketplace). You actually have an opportunity to make a little money from this hobby, yet you complain that it's not enough, and try to circumvent the rules to milk it some more. IMO, you should either stop overvaluing your work, or just leave. Your attitude is poison to the modding community. I wish it hadn't gotten so bad in the first place.
Guest Posted February 14, 2018 Posted February 14, 2018 This topic has been locked because drama started quickly. Remember always to respect the decision of other people.
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