Stormcloaks or Imperials?

[Guest]

Stormcloaks.

 

The Empire at this point is Rome circa 450 AD.

[Guest]

Imperials: 

>Manlets

>Short

>Need to get help from Thalmor because "muh empire" can't handle the Stormcloaks by themselves

>Thin, no muscle mass whatsoever, can't run more than 20 feet without tiring out under the weight of "muh imperial heavy armor"

>No social skills

>Glass jawline

>No sex drive

>Literally Jews of Skyrim

>Greasy Skin

>Acting superior even though none of them are even close to 5'10"

>Disgusting-Looking Noses

>"Muh Empire"

 

Stormcloaks:

>Aryan Master Race

>Handsome/Beautiful

>Tall, all above 6'0"+

>Physically fit, athletic, muscular

>Masters of Warfare

>Hard-Working folk

>Can handle the Empire while being poorly-equipped

>Nord genetics perfectly adapted for Skyrim's climate

>Great fighters

>Nord men preferred by women Tamriel-wide

>Talos was literally the only god amongst men

>Talos was a Nord

>Imperials have literally no benefit in gaining Skyrim as a puppet province

>mfw manlet Imperials think they have any chance at defeating the almighty Nord master race

>mfw Imperials will defend their battle strategies against Nord guerilla warfare surprise attacks

>mfw Nord genes will overpower and eradicate Imperial genes from existence

>mfw Imperials getting mad at Nord men for stealing Imperial women

>mfw Imperials drink milk

>mfw Imperials will defend this

 

lol how can Imperial men even compete?

[GimmeBACON]

 

>Aryan Master Race

 

lol how can Imperial men even compete?

I'm Gerrman and I just can't take that answer seriously.

[xTrogdorx]

People still confuse elves with the Thalmor. smh

 

Stereotype.

 

A great lot of Nords are racists already, and on top of them all, we have the Stormcloaks. If you are sensible and can see reason, the Stormcloaks can bring nothing more than troubles to the Skyrim people. 

 

 

Purging imperial control over Skyrim so that the Nords will no longer be enslaved by the Thalmor - last I check, there are no human slaves under Thalmor enslavement in Skyrim. With the legion gone, however, what the rebels kept yelling might finally come true.

 

Let's make it simple. The Stormcloaks have won, and the Thalmor Embassy is still there, intact, with Thalmor Justicars escorting Talos worshipers. Dig? The Stormcloaks, ultimately, have done nothing as they promised. First of the two reason is Beth's shitty writing and poor story handling, second is that Ulfric Stormcloak is only another power hungry man who fundamentally doesn't care about anything but himself.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I have no love for the emperor either. The best option for the player and all of Tamriel is the Dragonborn defeating and conscripting the Stormcloaks, ending the Medes, and undoing the Aldmeri Dominion, and thus forge the forth empire as its emperor/empress. Earn the confidence and allegiance of Hammerfell back and sign treaties with An-Xileel (because attempting to defeat An-Xileel in their home base is suicide).

 

Neither the Medes or any of the Skyrim Jarls including Ulfric Stormcloak would do good to Tamriel, and we can't let Fascism win. The Dragonborn is the only choice for Tamriel.

 

The fact that nothing changes once a side wins the civil war should be attributed 100% to Bethesda rushing the game out the door, not to Ulfric not doing his job - I'm sure that he is 100% anti-Thalmor and would totally have sacked the embassy had Bethesda bothered to make that possible.

 

As for Ulfric being power hungry and selfish, I have to ask what evidence we have to support that accusation? We have a sum total of two sources of negative sentiment towards Ulfric. One is the book The Bear of Markarth, which was written by an Imperial scribe and for all we know, could be a total fabrication. The other is the son of the Jarl of Riften, who claims that Ulfric is simply selfishly grabbing power, but doesn't really have any evidence to back up his accusations. It certainly seems like at some point, Bethesda intended to flesh out Ulfric more and make him seem less noble, but there is simply no actual ingame evidence that this is the case. And on the contrary, we have evidence that Ulfric is a good guy - he helps the player at the beginning of the game regardless of race. He's allowing a bunch of dunmer and argonians to live in his city. Everything he says, and everything we see him do, paints him as the quintessential nord hero.

 

On the other hand, you could ask yourself why you should bother defending the Nords' religious freedom; the guy they want to worship may have been a hero to the nords, but he was a villain to every other race. He used his army to attack the dunmer, got them to surrender, then used the giant robot they gave him to go on a stompy murder spree across the rest of Tamriel. I don't think he got personally involved in any fights after he took the Imperial City; what kind of hero is that, when the Nords value heroism and taking on problems directly?

 

Therefore, one's opinion on 'Stormcloaks or Imperials?' depends heavily on whether you choose to believe Ulfric is the secretly power-hungry racist shitlord that was supposed to be, or the honorable freedom fighter we actually got.

 

I will agree with you that the best option would be for the DB to simply attack the Aldmeri Dominion directly. Regardless of what you think of Ulfric, helping prop up the Empire is almost certainly not good for Tamriel in the long-term. They may beat back the Thalmor, but then they're just going to go right back to trying to conquer the known world. Plus, without the threat of the Thalmor, the Empire will have no reason to ban Talos worship anymore, and so that will end the civil war in Skyrim.

 

However, conscripting the Stormcloaks isn't a good way to make this happen. In order to strike at the Dominion, you'd have to get them to Alinor, and the Thalmor would probably see that coming, considering they have spies everywhere who would probably notice a whole bunch of boats being built. You'd be far better off leveraging your power as Dragonborn to influence the remaining dragons, and use them to attack Alinor instead, which would likely take the elves completely off guard. They won't be expecting a huge surprise attack from the air, and you'll avoid the logistical problems you'd face with trying to move large numbers of men to the other end of Tamriel.

[xTrogdorx]

 

-snip-

 

Um. Is this supposed to be funny? I can't tell if I'm supposed to take this seriously. But I'll respond, just in case you are being serious.

 

-The Empire just came out of a massive war, wherein their losses were so heavy that they actually had to abandon the imperial city for a while, before reclaiming it. Needless to say, the Empire is in a significantly weakened state.

-The Empire doesn't need the Thalmor's help to defeat the Stormcloaks. Quite the contrary; The Thalmor orchestrated the Stormcloak rebellion and are doing everything they can to covertly prolong the civil war. If you'd read the documents you obtain when you raid the Thalmor Embassy during the main quest, you'd know this.

-The Skyrim civil war is hardly the only thing the Empire is dealing with right now. In the wake of the Great War, they are scrambling to repair the damage done and replenish their army, which is only made harder with the loss of Hammerfell and Skyrim's respective support.

-The Empire very nearly won at the beginning of the game, had Alduin not intervened at Helgen.

-The Empire needs Skyrim for its ore, taxes, and yes, warriors. Saying the Empire doesn't get any benefit from Skyrim is ridiculous.

-Skyrim needs the Empire. There's no way the current population of Skyrim can survive on what little food their few farms, hunters, and fishermen provide, and they can't eat rocks. In your travels through Skyrim, how many craftsmen have you met? Of those, how many weren't blacksmiths? Who's making the candles, glass, beer, pottery, tapestries... the list goes on.

-We actually don't know whether Talos was a Nord or a Cyrod or even a Breton.

 

[NickNozownik]

Imperials. They're more open minded and civilised. Nords are primitive as fuck. Some of them are sexy and they are decent warriors, I'll give them that, but they won't go very far with attitude like "elves r dunmb, fukc magikc, it's us vs the world".

[fgambler]

Imperials is the right choice. If you read the Bear of Markarth and the Thalmor dossier about Ulfric, there's no way to side with the Stormcloaks unless your character sympathizes with the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion.

[GimmeBACON]

"Right" is an abstract ideal which can only exist in a black or white world. That being said, if you're a devout follower of Talos, you should side with those whom wish to have his name stricken from the earth? Or if you wish to see your motherland united under a strong, unyielding banner, you should be a pawn of those whom bend knee to terrorists to save their own necks? There are plenty of reasons to side with Ulfric if you are able to see from a different perspective, that's why it's roleplaying.

[Guest]

 

 

-snip-

 

Um. Is this supposed to be funny? I can't tell if I'm supposed to take this seriously. But I'll respond, just in case you are being serious.

 

-The Empire just came out of a massive war, wherein their losses were so heavy that they actually had to abandon the imperial city for a while, before reclaiming it. Needless to say, the Empire is in a significantly weakened state.

-The Empire doesn't need the Thalmor's help to defeat the Stormcloaks. Quite the contrary; The Thalmor orchestrated the Stormcloak rebellion and are doing everything they can to covertly prolong the civil war. If you'd read the documents you obtain when you raid the Thalmor Embassy during the main quest, you'd know this.

-The Skyrim civil war is hardly the only thing the Empire is dealing with right now. In the wake of the Great War, they are scrambling to repair the damage done and replenish their army, which is only made harder with the loss of Hammerfell and Skyrim's respective support.

-The Empire very nearly won at the beginning of the game, had Alduin not intervened at Helgen.

-The Empire needs Skyrim for its ore, taxes, and yes, warriors. Saying the Empire doesn't get any benefit from Skyrim is ridiculous.

-Skyrim needs the Empire. There's no way the current population of Skyrim can survive on what little food their few farms, hunters, and fishermen provide, and they can't eat rocks. In your travels through Skyrim, how many craftsmen have you met? Of those, how many weren't blacksmiths? Who's making the candles, glass, beer, pottery, tapestries... the list goes on.

-We actually don't know whether Talos was a Nord or a Cyrod or even a Breton.

 

>Um. Is this supposed to be funny? I can't tell if I'm supposed to take this seriously

 

it's a game, you're not supposed to take any of it seriously, tough guy, hahaha. 

[Bloodfang]

The million dollar question.

 

I'll be honest, after 1500+ hours, I just prefer the Stormcloaks. Despite what people say, they are not only more grateful (they do call you dragonborn and trully respect you, meanwhile the emperials just treat you like another soldier and if I remember correctly NEVER call you dragonborn) but way more honest.

 

The Empire, especially when you finish the Dark Brotherhood mainquest just shows how deep the politics are corrupted. There is simply no way to start a proper kingdom with these kind of people around. Empire favors torture also, along with the Thalmor that simply roams their land and go on a random witch hunt. Hell they even attack you because you're a "Talos Worshipper" no matter what you say (even if you say nothing they'll attack lol !).

The Empire has become an empty shell. Money can't buy the spirit and strength the nords have.

 

I always play as a Redguard woman, and going with the Stormcloaks was my first choice in my very first playthrough back in november 2011. Even after reading all the books about the lore, some of them are obviously propaganda (written by imperials etc).

For example, I don't believe Ulfric killed children, it doesn't fit the character that is all about honor, even when he's about to die after beating him when you side with the Empire.

 

Some also say that a Stormcloak victory is what Thalmors want, but it's not, they simply speed-read the Thalmor dossier without actually reading it. Thalmors just want the war to go on forever, no winning side because either would be bad for them : if the Stormcloaks win, not only they'll get hunted from Skyrim, but it's quite sure the Nords will form an alliance with the Redguards and the Bretons (who have been in standby mode just to see if the Empire or Cloaks would win).

Considering that in order to invade Skyrim, the Thalmors would have to go through/near Hammerfell (where they already got kicked by the Redguards), and that Skyrim is a harsh land compared to Summerset Isles, it's obvious to me that it won't be easy for them. That's why they do think a Stormcloak victory would be also as dangerous as an Empire victory.

 

To me, compared to the common imperial people, their politics and Tulius, Ulfric seems more real, more true. Even as a non-Nord character I've played both sides and enjoyed the Stormcloak one way better because their reasons were more important and real to me. Instead of the Empire's that are basically : "we conquered these lands, it's ours, we need your taxes and be the Thalmors' bitches ffs ! Obey or die !". Sure they just act like the Thalmors want to not get exterminated, but I don't think it's the right solution tbh, both Thalmors and Empire were weak after the Great War and the redguards proved that they CAN be beaten.

 

You might also say "but Stormcloaks hate elves!!!", not entirely true. There's an altmer living right in Windhelm, and she lives just as good as the other nords, if not better than some. She just had to work and show that she can be trusted like any decent citizen would do. If you read the stories, the slum in Windhelm was offered as a refuge for the dunmers that escaped Morrowind. Sure it's not perfect but I can't see where they'd go in the city, there is no other space left. And the argonians are outside the city simply because they wouldn't go along with the dunmers (there is some bad blood between them). Even after a full Empire victory the situation doesn't change for dunmers/argonians AND khajiits, because khajiits are almost banned from all cities. Stormcloak or not.

 

The only thing Imperial has for them, is that with a full victory, you have less complains. With the Stormcloaks, some complain, but they were Empire supporters so... but even then, it's war, and everything will go back to normal after a while.

 

Both sides aren't perfect, but I feel dirty when joinning the Empire. It doesn't feel right imo.

[Guest]

Imperials: 

>Manlets

>Short

>Need to get help from Thalmor because "muh empire" can't handle the Stormcloaks by themselves

>Thin, no muscle mass whatsoever, can't run more than 20 feet without tiring out under the weight of "muh imperial heavy armor"

>No social skills

>Glass jawline

>No sex drive

>Literally Jews of Skyrim

>Greasy Skin

>Acting superior even though none of them are even close to 5'10"

>Disgusting-Looking Noses

>"Muh Empire"

 

Stormcloaks:

>Aryan Master Race

>Handsome/Beautiful

>Tall, all above 6'0"+

>Physically fit, athletic, muscular

>Masters of Warfare

>Hard-Working folk

>Can handle the Empire while being poorly-equipped

>Nord genetics perfectly adapted for Skyrim's climate

>Great fighters

>Nord men preferred by women Tamriel-wide

>Talos was literally the only god amongst men

>Talos was a Nord

>Imperials have literally no benefit in gaining Skyrim as a puppet province

>mfw manlet Imperials think they have any chance at defeating the almighty Nord master race

>mfw Imperials will defend their battle strategies against Nord guerilla warfare surprise attacks

>mfw Nord genes will overpower and eradicate Imperial genes from existence

>mfw Imperials getting mad at Nord men for stealing Imperial women

>mfw Imperials drink milk

>mfw Imperials will defend this

 

lol how can Imperial men even compete?

Don't kid yourself, the Imperials are basically the Romans of TES while you Nords are Redguards with the wrong skin color.

[Guest]

 

Don't kid yourself, the Imperials are basically the Romans of TES while you Nords are Redguards with the wrong skin color.

 

 

nothing personnel, kid.

[Valgo]

I tend to become a Stormcloak.
Sure they have the problem that some of their Members are racist and I really do hate racism.
However there is that one guy Stormcloak who pays you for helping out the dark elves in Windhelm and Ulfric himself doesn't seem to be racist either.
He does know however that some of the people who support him have a problem with them and he can't risk losing their support in the middle of the war.

Yet I can't remember hearing any complaints from the soldiers when my non-nord Character sided with them.

 

The Imperials on the other hand look away when the Thalmor abduct and imprison people and that is just not okay for me.

 

At the End of the day I don't like everything that is going on on the Stormcloak side and some of their motivations but they seem to be the lesser evil and they have a few really nice Characters among their Troops.

I doubt that they'd start massakers in the slums and go on to throw all elves out of the country as that would only lead to another Civil War.

What makes it hard not to be a bit understanding towards them is that they have fought against the Aldmeri Dominion for years.

It takes some time to recover from the wounds and mistrust that follows a war.

Weren't it for the Thalmor and the way they operate I doubt the people of Skyrim would have such a high amount of people with racist tendencies.

 

To explain why the Stormcloaks have more female Soldiers: That is pretty easy. Usually armies are mostly made out of men but the Stormcloaks are more like a overglorified group of freedom fighters. It's their home that is under attack of sorts. In such a situation anyone can grab a weapon.

[Chaos63]

Imperials: 

>Manlets

>Short

>Need to get help from Thalmor because "muh empire" can't handle the Stormcloaks by themselves

>Thin, no muscle mass whatsoever, can't run more than 20 feet without tiring out under the weight of "muh imperial heavy armor"

>No social skills

>Glass jawline

>No sex drive

>Literally Jews of Skyrim

>Greasy Skin

>Acting superior even though none of them are even close to 5'10"

>Disgusting-Looking Noses

>"Muh Empire"

 

Stormcloaks:

>Aryan Master Race

>Handsome/Beautiful

>Tall, all above 6'0"+

>Physically fit, athletic, muscular

>Masters of Warfare

>Hard-Working folk

>Can handle the Empire while being poorly-equipped

>Nord genetics perfectly adapted for Skyrim's climate

>Great fighters

>Nord men preferred by women Tamriel-wide

>Talos was literally the only god amongst men

>Talos was a Nord

>Imperials have literally no benefit in gaining Skyrim as a puppet province

>mfw manlet Imperials think they have any chance at defeating the almighty Nord master race

>mfw Imperials will defend their battle strategies against Nord guerilla warfare surprise attacks

>mfw Nord genes will overpower and eradicate Imperial genes from existence

>mfw Imperials getting mad at Nord men for stealing Imperial women

>mfw Imperials drink milk

>mfw Imperials will defend this

 

lol how can Imperial men even compete?

 

LOL that's fucking hillarious

and true

 

[spoonsinger]

I tend to become a Stormcloak.

Sure they have the problem that some of their Members are racist and I really do hate racism.

However there is that one guy Stormcloak who pays you for helping out the dark elves in Windhelm and Ulfric himself doesn't seem to be racist either.

He does know however that some of the people who support him have a problem with them and he can't risk losing their support in the middle of the war.

Yet I can't remember hearing any complaints from the soldiers when my non-nord Character sided with them.

 

The Imperials on the other hand look away when the Thalmor abduct and imprison people and that is just not okay for me.

 

At the End of the day I don't like everything that is going on on the Stormcloak side and some of their motivations but they seem to be the lesser evil and they have a few really nice Characters among their Troops.

I doubt that they'd start massakers in the slums and go on to throw all elves out of the country as that would only lead to another Civil War.

What makes it hard not to be a bit understanding towards them is that they have fought against the Aldmeri Dominion for years.

It takes some time to recover from the wounds and mistrust that follows a war.

Weren't it for the Thalmor and the way they operate I doubt the people of Skyrim would have such a high amount of people with racist tendencies.

 

To explain why the Stormcloaks have more female Soldiers: That is pretty easy. Usually armies are mostly made out of men but the Stormcloaks are more like a overglorified group of freedom fighters. It's their home that is under attack of sorts. In such a situation anyone can grab a weapon.

 

"However there is that one guy Stormcloak who pays you for helping out the dark elves in Windhelm and Ulfric himself doesn't seem to be racist either."

 

Brunwulf is just there because he likes being there but hates the politics. Galmar Stone-Fist would probably have him killed in an instant if he knew his views. If Ulfric wasn't racist he'd probably treat the dark elves better, and you know, maybe actually incorporate them into his cause.

 

"The Imperials on the other hand look away when the Thalmor abduct and imprison people and that is just not okay for me."

 

It's called Extraordinary rendition. It happens in other places.

 

 

[fgambler]

 

Imperials: 

>Manlets

>Short

>Need to get help from Thalmor because "muh empire" can't handle the Stormcloaks by themselves

>Thin, no muscle mass whatsoever, can't run more than 20 feet without tiring out under the weight of "muh imperial heavy armor"

>No social skills

>Glass jawline

>No sex drive

>Literally Jews of Skyrim

>Greasy Skin

>Acting superior even though none of them are even close to 5'10"

>Disgusting-Looking Noses

>"Muh Empire"

 

Stormcloaks:

>Aryan Master Race

>Handsome/Beautiful

>Tall, all above 6'0"+

>Physically fit, athletic, muscular

>Masters of Warfare

>Hard-Working folk

>Can handle the Empire while being poorly-equipped

>Nord genetics perfectly adapted for Skyrim's climate

>Great fighters

>Nord men preferred by women Tamriel-wide

>Talos was literally the only god amongst men

>Talos was a Nord

>Imperials have literally no benefit in gaining Skyrim as a puppet province

>mfw manlet Imperials think they have any chance at defeating the almighty Nord master race

>mfw Imperials will defend their battle strategies against Nord guerilla warfare surprise attacks

>mfw Nord genes will overpower and eradicate Imperial genes from existence

>mfw Imperials getting mad at Nord men for stealing Imperial women

>mfw Imperials drink milk

>mfw Imperials will defend this

 

lol how can Imperial men even compete?

Don't kid yourself, the Imperials are basically the Romans of TES while you Nords are Redguards with the wrong skin color.

 

 

 

LOL

 

Anyway, being nord doesn't mean being Stormcloak.

[Valgo]

 

I tend to become a Stormcloak.

Sure they have the problem that some of their Members are racist and I really do hate racism.

However there is that one guy Stormcloak who pays you for helping out the dark elves in Windhelm and Ulfric himself doesn't seem to be racist either.

He does know however that some of the people who support him have a problem with them and he can't risk losing their support in the middle of the war.

Yet I can't remember hearing any complaints from the soldiers when my non-nord Character sided with them.

 

The Imperials on the other hand look away when the Thalmor abduct and imprison people and that is just not okay for me.

 

At the End of the day I don't like everything that is going on on the Stormcloak side and some of their motivations but they seem to be the lesser evil and they have a few really nice Characters among their Troops.

I doubt that they'd start massakers in the slums and go on to throw all elves out of the country as that would only lead to another Civil War.

What makes it hard not to be a bit understanding towards them is that they have fought against the Aldmeri Dominion for years.

It takes some time to recover from the wounds and mistrust that follows a war.

Weren't it for the Thalmor and the way they operate I doubt the people of Skyrim would have such a high amount of people with racist tendencies.

 

To explain why the Stormcloaks have more female Soldiers: That is pretty easy. Usually armies are mostly made out of men but the Stormcloaks are more like a overglorified group of freedom fighters. It's their home that is under attack of sorts. In such a situation anyone can grab a weapon.

 

"However there is that one guy Stormcloak who pays you for helping out the dark elves in Windhelm and Ulfric himself doesn't seem to be racist either."

 

Brunwulf is just there because he likes being there but hates the politics. Galmar Stone-Fist would probably have him killed in an instant if he knew his views. If Ulfric wasn't racist he'd probably treat the dark elves better, and you know, maybe actually incorporate them into his cause.

 

"The Imperials on the other hand look away when the Thalmor abduct and imprison people and that is just not okay for me."

 

It's called Extraordinary rendition. It happens in other places.

 

 

 

 

Assumptions. I don't recall either Galmar nor Ulfric ever stating something racist and do not forget that those Darkelves are actually Refugees.

I for example live in a country were we have a lot of refugees from syria and other nations. We took in a lot of them but we don't treat them especially well which is a shame really but to the matter at hand: Does that mean we are all racists? I won't deny that way too many are but for the most part we are not. Neither is our government for now.

 

In our case the people are divided as how to act, in Skyrims case they do have literally bigger problems than that because they are at war.

Incorporating the Darkelves would be a slow process that needs to be handled with cautions because Ulfric could easily lose more support than he'd gain that way and he can't afford that.

 

As for Brunwulf. He goes around and tells a stranger how he thinks about the politics in Windhelm. I don't think that is a huge secret and yet he lives.

 

I don't wanna say the Stormloaks and Ulfric are all misunderstood and actually behave like angels, that would be stupid. There main argument is also a religious matter which is even more stupid but I still consider them the lesser evil.

And like I said: They welcome any race among their men and women. If they were truelly all racists they would never do that.

 

As for Extraordinay rendition. That might be but does that make it better?

 

 

[Guest endgameaddiction]

It's more of distrust, not racism from Ulfric. But then again he wants to assure anyone that joins has good enough reason to fight for the banning of Talos and eradicating the Thalmor in Skyrim.

 

Every race, but mainly Nords and Imperials have their pros and cons. For the Nords, it's many who are racist against any who isn't a Nord. Mostly against elves. Their ignorance has their minds clouded and they pretty much place all elves into one and distrusts them.

 

The difference between Stormcloak and Imperial Legion is that the Imperial Legion has faithful Nords. You can be a Nord and join the Imperial Legion without any resentment

 

I don't care for either faction despite I always pick Stormcloaks. But war and politics are not my thing in video games.

 

I prefer the Nords in the Skaal Village. And I prefer Solstheim over Skyrim anyways.

[fgambler]

I'm posting two facts that I just couldn't ignore when taking sides:

 

From the Bear of Markarth book

Ulfric Stormcloak is considered a hero by many for his part in quelling the Forsworn Uprising. It is said that when the Empire abandoned Skyrim, and the natives of the Reach rebelled (undoubtedly due to the Nords [sic] poor treatment of them), Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia was there to retake "their" land from the Forsworn. In all the bravado and epic yarns the skalds compose of his exploits, you would think Ulfric to be a giant of a man, equal to that of Tiber Septim in his cunning, leadership, and decisive actions.

 

But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.

 

True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.

 

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn, a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

 

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

 

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

 

 

 

From the Thalmor dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

 

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

 

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

 

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

 

 

 

The Bear of Markarth told the type of leader he was, and the dossier just shows who actually wins with the Empire and Skyrim weakened.

 

People are still worshipping Talos anyway, including the queen of Solitude and the late High King. His statues weren't removed from the cities neither destroyed around the country. The fight against the White-Gold Corcordat is more of an excuse to achieve power than actually protecting people from the scarce Thalmor that ambushes discreet Talos worshippers around.

 

More than 10 playthroughs. Always Empire.

[GimmeBACON]

 

Don't kid yourself, the Imperials are basically the Romans of TES while you Nords are Redguards with the wrong skin color.

 

Fighting racism with racism doesn't extinguish racism no more then a flamethrower does a forest fire.

[GimmeBACON]

I'm posting two facts that I just couldn't ignore when taking sides:

 

From the Bear of Markarth book

Ulfric Stormcloak is considered a hero by many for his part in quelling the Forsworn Uprising. It is said that when the Empire abandoned Skyrim, and the natives of the Reach rebelled (undoubtedly due to the Nords [sic] poor treatment of them), Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia was there to retake "their" land from the Forsworn. In all the bravado and epic yarns the skalds compose of his exploits, you would think Ulfric to be a giant of a man, equal to that of Tiber Septim in his cunning, leadership, and decisive actions.

 

But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.

 

True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.

 

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn, a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

 

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

 

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

 

 

 

From the Thalmor dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

 

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

 

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

 

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

 

 

 

 

The Bear of Markarth told the type of leader he was, and the dossier just shows who actually wins with the Empire and Skyrim weakened.

 

People are still worshipping Talos anyway, including the queen of Solitude and the late High King. His statues weren't removed from the cities neither destroyed around the country. The fight against the White-Gold Corcordat is more of an excuse to achieve power than actually protecting people from the scarce Thalmor that ambushes discreet Talos worshippers around.

 

More than 10 playthroughs. Always Empire.

Do you also intend to use The Talos Mistake as means to prove that he shouldn't be revered? It's a part of the authors agenda to tell the story his way, be it to defame Ulfric, glorify a certain party, or whatever other reason.

 

Yes, knowing everything definitively would make helping Ulfric seem like a questionable move, but, killing him would be an equally questionable move as the Thalmor would have the Empire back in their direct sight again anyway. That is, of course if everything went as smoothly as on quill and paper. Perhaps Ulfrics victory would give other territories incentive to secede from the Empire and form a strong front against the Thalmor, or maybe Skyrim becomes annexed by the Thalmor, we don't know.

 

Besides, just because the Thalmor see Ulfric as an asset, doesn't mean he wouldn't slaughter them all given a chance.

[Chaos63]

I never felt any racism from stormloacks, especially the higher-ups. I almost always play a high elf spellcaster, and they always revere me for helping them out. If they were half as bad as everybody says, all I should be able to get from them would be "fuck you elf" and possibly a sword in the ass.

Besides, Windhelm has more racial diversity than a modern american family tree.

[iCallisto]

The only chance the people of Tamriel have at preventing the Third Aldmeri Dominion from ruling over all mankind would be to back the Third Empire. The Imperials have ruled over Tamriel for more than 2,000 years - and have kept it safe. Ulfric is a power hungry despot that has started a war in the name of independence, but in reality it will only lead to the destruction of Skyrim. 

 

The Empire was weakened after the Great War, and is now regathering its strength. Ulfric has undermined this by starting his Civil War, draining resources from the Empire. If Ulfric were to win the Civil War, the Aldmeri Dominion will roll into Skyrim and claim it as their own.

 

From there they would likely resume the war with the Empire as "punishment" for their failure to eradicate Talos worship in Skyrim, thus breaking the White Gold Concordat. The Empire at this point has lost a province, and lost even more money and man power in a petty war in the Civil War with Ulfric. The Aldmeri Dominion would have an even greater upper hand over the Empire in the event of a Stormcloak victory, which means it would only be a matter of time before the Aldmeri Dominion takes over all of Tamriel. 

 

That is why I always side with the Imperials.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

Imperial Legion bending their knee to Aldmeri Dominion because they were losing the war, so the White Gold Concordat was signed that created a peace treaty and allowed the banish of worshiping Talos, but even worse is enslaving and executing any Nord caught in the act of worship. I wouldn't be surprised after they've executed every last Nord that was caught worshiping, they would break down door to door every Nords home to see if there are any rituals being done and shrines of Talos.

 

While the Imperial Legion are patching their wounds, Nords have to pay the price to sacrifice their beliefs because one race wants the say over all races in their home land.

 

The Imperial Legion are weak and needs to go. They can go and rule other lands while Ulfric and his rebellion are doing what needs to be done. I don't see selfish in fighting for what you belief. I don't see selfish in pushing the pest out of your home. It's the other way around. The Dominion are selfish with their idealist wanting to put order and dominate all of Tamriel.

 

You can call it a strategic tactic by Imperial, but as I said, Nords are paying the price because the Imperial Legion are weak. They can't defend Skyrim. It's time to let the big boys do their job. To me, the Nords in Skyrim just want to have control of their land. They don't like to be told what to do. Do you?  Do you want your beliefs stripped? Talos is part of their culture. The Nords in Skyrim. Stripping that away is stripping their heritage.

 

Aldmeri Dominion are just mad because they can't bare the thought a man was made divine. And even if Talos was never a god, they can't bare the thought that Nords are stupid to believe in such nonsense.

[QuiteTheTail]

I usually play the CW quest (with either side) only to learn one of the words from the Slow Time shout. After that, the Jagged Crown remains in the Dragonborn's possession indefinitely - have you ever noticed how well it matches with the dragon armors? - the truce lasts forever, and the resulting political stalemate makes the Greybeards happy (my character usuallly is a faithful follower of the Way of the Voice). The Blades remain disbanded (bloodthirsty barbarians!), the Thalmor "take down a notch" or two in the related quests. During the negotiations, I leave Riften to the Stormcloaks because I prefer Layla Law-Giver to Maven Black-Briar, and trade Markarth for Winterhold and the Pale.

 

If the Stormcloaks or the Imperials really want to win this "pointless war", they shouldn't expect any help from the Dragonborn.

The will of Akatosh was not meant to serve political ambitions.