Stormcloaks or Imperials?

[Guest]

I'm posting two facts that I just couldn't ignore when taking sides:

 

From the Bear of Markarth book

-snip-

 

The Bear of Markarth told the type of leader he was . . . 

 

 

The BoM is a biased document whose claims do not corroborate with the first-hand accounts of individuals who were actually there, such as Madanach and Braig.

 

 

People are still worshipping Talos anyway, including the queen of Solitude and the late High King. His statues weren't removed from the cities neither destroyed around the country. The fight against the White-Gold Corcordat is more of an excuse to achieve power than actually protecting people from the scarce Thalmor that ambushes discreet Talos worshippers around.

 

Your disregard of the injustices committed by the Thalmor is noted.  

 

. . . and the dossier just shows who actually wins with the Empire and Skyrim weakened.

 

You may want to read that dossier again. 

 

From the Thalmor dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak

 

 A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided . . .

 

[Guest]

 The Imperials have ruled over Tamriel for more than 2,000 years - and have kept it safe. 

 

This couldn't be further from the truth.

 

The Empire was weakened after the Great War, and is now regathering its strength. Ulfric has undermined this by starting his Civil War, draining resources from the Empire. If Ulfric were to win the Civil War, the Aldmeri Dominion will roll into Skyrim and claim it as their own.

 

The Aldmeri Dominion would have an even greater upper hand over the Empire in the event of a Stormcloak victory, which means it would only be a matter of time before the Aldmeri Dominion takes over all of Tamriel. 

 

 

How would the Aldmeri Dominion invade Skyrim?

 

I want details.

[Guest]

 

 The Imperials have ruled over Tamriel for more than 2,000 years - and have kept it safe. 

 

This couldn't be further from the truth.

 

The Empire was weakened after the Great War, and is now regathering its strength. Ulfric has undermined this by starting his Civil War, draining resources from the Empire. If Ulfric were to win the Civil War, the Aldmeri Dominion will roll into Skyrim and claim it as their own.

 

The Aldmeri Dominion would have an even greater upper hand over the Empire in the event of a Stormcloak victory, which means it would only be a matter of time before the Aldmeri Dominion takes over all of Tamriel. 

 

 

How would the Aldmeri Dominion invade Skyrim?

 

I want details.

 

 

Maybe same way as Talos did .

 

Ohh in that time due an injury he couldn't use the Thu'm.

 

So he just outsmarted the nords.

[Guest]

 

 

Maybe same way as Talos did .

 

Ohh in that time due an injury he couldn't use the Thu'm.

 

So he just outsmarted the nords.

 

 

The Nords willingly joined Tiber Septim after witnessing him use the Thu'um at Sancre Tor.

 

I am still waiting for details on how the Aldmeri Dominion would invade Skyrim in this worst-case scenario that Imperial sympathizers continuously put forth.

[iCallisto]

What do you think is stopping the Aldmeri Dominion from invading Skyrim? Some backwoods barbarians? Once the Empire has been removed from the equation, there is nothing stopping the Aldmeri Dominion from rolling into Skyrim and taking over. Ulfric and his barbarian hordes are nothing against the might of Aldemri Dominion. The Imperial Legion and all of its power barely kept it together after the Aldmeri Dominion sacked Cyrodiil, what makes anyone think a startup comprised of villagers and guardsmen are going to take them down? There is no chance whatsoever that Ulfric will succeed in a war against the Aldemri Dominion. Which will happen by the way, the Aldemri Dominion didn't start their conquest to give the Empire a quick thrashing and watch barbarians defy their rule. Why are the Thalmor in Skyrim? Why are they interrogating people? To find little shrines? They are there to wait for the perfect excuse to punish the Empire further, and to beat back the "heathen Nords" of Skyrim. An Imperial loss would justify the Aldmeri Dominions claims that the Empire cannot contain the illegal worship of Talos, and therefore would invade.

 

Everyone who complains about the Empire always discredit them for letting the Thalmor repress the worship of Tiber Septim, but they always seem to forget that the Imperials worship him too. The ban on Talos worship was never enforced until Ulfric provided justification for the Thalmor to distrust the Empires ability to quell Talos worship. The Thalmor presence in Skyrim is a direct result of Ulfric and his rebellion.

 

Tiber Septim created the Empire and tamed the land of Tamriel to bow to him and his Legion. He is as much a God to the Imperials as he is to the Nords. He is not unique to the Nords. Tamriel needs to be unified now more than ever, and Ulfric wishes to undermine that in his petty quest for power. Are people suffering under the Thalmor? Yes. People need to be more pragmatic. Letting your feelings get in the way and saving the few at the sacrifice of many more down the line is just stupid. In the long run the sacrifices made with the White Gold Concordat will mean the preservation of the Empire, and the destruction of the Aldmeri Dominion. Let us not forget that it was Tiber Septim and his Legions that destroyed the Second Aldmeri Dominion.

 

Skyrim will never be independent. It will either be ruled by the Empire or it will be ruled by the Aldemri Dominion. The Thalmor wish to conquer all of Tamriel, and it is only because of the the strength of the Emperor and the Imperial Legion that the entire Dominion force that invaded Cyrodiil was destroyed at the Battle of the Red Ring. If it wasn't for the success the Empire had there, it would likely already be destroyed, and there would be nothing left to keep the Thalmor from crushing Skyrim outright. The White Gold Concordat saved more lives than it has cost, and will continue to do so if the people of the Empire can stick together.

 

The Empire is the only hope Tamriel has at defeating the Aldmeri Dominion, which even after the intense fighting of the Great War, is still very strong. The Empire cannot just jump into another war with Thalmor, the treaty was needed to sustain their military forces. The Greeks had the same ridiculous honor code the Nords have and would sacrifice a whole company of troops because surrender or retreat was dishonorable. The Romans, which the Imperials are based off of, were far more intelligent. They knew that dead men are worthless, and honor is pointless when there is no one left alive to honor your sacrifice. In other words, you must know when to quit and regather your strength. No matter the cost, self preservation is vital if you are ever to continue fighting in the future. If the Empire didn't sign the White Gold Concordat the war would have continued, and the Empire likely would not have been able to sustain such heavy fighting for that much longer.

 

Even with their past success, like the aforementioned Battle of the Red Ring, it was because the Imperials had the advantage of catching them off guard. The Aldmeri Dominion have large forces left over from the Great War, and the Imperial Legions are one of the few military forces that can face them. The Legion is better equipped, better organized, and likely larger than the Stormcloak forces. They can protect Skyrim and the rest of Tamriel. Ulfric cannot. The Stormcloak rebellion is a selfish quest to have Ulfric as High King of Skyrim, and to foolishly try and have an "Independent Skyrim". A pipe dream that will never happen. A Stormcloak victory spells the death of Skyrim, and only serves to make the conquest of all of Tamriel all that much easier.

 

If anyone wants a specific point of entry for the invasion, it would likely be over the Jerall Mountains from Cyrodiil. The current Thalmor occupation of Skyrim clearly got there somehow, and in the event of a Stormcloak defeat they could easily justify a large military force entering Skyrim through Cyrodiil. This is even easier if the incredibly stupid Dark Brotherhood quest is canon and the Emperor is killed, thus leaving the Empire in complete disarray. If you have problems with that, they could attack them from the Sea of Ghost by way of their navy.

 

[Guest]

What a wall of text! 

 

-snip-

 

You underestimate the Nords.  If Skyrim becomes independent, Ulfric or whomever becomes the reigning monarch would have complete access to its resources.  And that goes without mentioning that Skyrim was the seat an Empire that stretched from High Rock to Morrowind, and that also played a crucial role in removing the Ayleids from power.. 

 

And yes, the Thalmor are there to beat down the "heathen Nords".  The Thalmor wish to see the world undone in order to the Dawn Era when everyone was an et'Ada.  Talos is the only thing which stands in the way of this goal because he holds the fabric of reality together. 

 

 Let us not forget that it was Tiber Septim and his Legions that destroyed the Second Aldmeri Dominion.

 

Wrong.  It was Numidium that defeated the Second Dominion, not the Legions.

 

 

The Empire is the only hope Tamriel has at defeating the Aldmeri Dominion, which even after the intense fighting of the Great War, is still very strong. The Empire cannot just jump into another war with Thalmor, the treaty was needed to sustain their military forces. No matter the cost, self preservation is vital if you are ever to continue fighting in the future. If the Empire didn't sign the White Gold Concordat the war would have continued, and the Empire likely would not have been able to sustain such heavy fighting for that much longer.

 

The Aldmeri Dominion have large forces left over from the Great War, and the Imperial Legions are one of the few military forces that can face them. The Legion is better equipped, better organized, and likely larger than the Stormcloak forces. 

 

The Empire crushed the AD's forces in Cyrodiil.  The Redguards, despite being abandoned by the Empire, fought the elves to a standstill.  

The only thing the AD has going is that their infrastructure is still intact.  Otherwise, it will take longer for them to recover their losses since elves breed more slowly than humans.

 

And for the record, the war ended 25 years ago.  If the Empire has gotten its house together in that time, something is wrong.  The Empire had no excuse to sign the WGC since the AD lacked the upper-hand.

 

They can protect Skyrim and the rest of Tamriel. 

 

Tell that to the Redguards.

 

And the Nords that have been kidnapped, tortured, and executed by the Thalmor for worshipping their gods.

 

And the peoples of Tamriel who are no longer under Imperial rule.

 

If anyone wants a specific point of entry for the invasion, it would likely be over the Jerall Mountains from Cyrodiil. The current Thalmor occupation of Skyrim clearly got there somehow, and in the event of a Stormcloak defeat they could easily justify a large military force entering Skyrim through Cyrodiil.  If you have problems with that, they could attack them from the Sea of Ghost by way of their navy.

 

The elves would have to defeat the Imperial forces stationed at the border first.  The second time won't be as easy since the AD will not longer have the element of surprise.

 

And if the AD somehow defeats the Legions, their ability to continue on would by crippled by their losses in battle, along with the fact the that the Pale Pass is the only route into Skyrim that also manages to be easily defensible.  Never mind the insurgencies that would pop up should the AD decide to occupy Cyrodiil.

 

A naval invasion of Skyrim would be even more costly since:

• Every navy needs friendly ports.  The Redguards and Bretons offer none to the elves. 
• The Abecean is one of the most pirate-infested seas in Tamriel.
• The Sload and Maormer are not friendly towards the Altmer.
• The AD's naval strength may not be what it was in the past due to incursions by the 2 factions above.

 

This is even easier if the incredibly stupid Dark Brotherhood quest is canon and the Emperor is killed, thus leaving the Empire in complete disarray.

 

Internal corruption within the Imperial leadership is not the most attractive trait.

 

Anyway, that may end up being canon since the Empire has been in decline since Arena.  The loss of Skyrim and the death of another Emperor would fulfill the quota for this cycle.

[iCallisto]

I'll have to keep this reply fairly short - as I have other things I have to attend to. As such, I will not be able to cover all the points addressed in your reply. My apologies.

 

The Empire did help Hammerfell. The Emperor essentially disavowed the Legionnaires stationed in Hammerfell, which allowed them to continue fighting as independents. The disavowed Imperial forces paired with the Redguards helped push the Aldemri forces out of Hammerfell. It is true that it has been 25 years since the end of the Great War. But we also shouldn't forget that it has been 25 years of Cold War between the Empire and the Aldemri Dominion. If the Empire were to attempt to make massive changes to boost their military strength, the Thalmor would know of it immediately. We must remember that as part of the White Gold Concordat the Thalmor are to have free access to all Imperial provinces, which would include Cyrodiil. This is so the Thalmor may search for illegal Talos worshipers, but it also an obvious way to keep their eyes on the Empire. General Tullius points out at the end of the Civil War quest line that war with the Thalmor is inevitable, and that the stalemate would come to an end sooner than later. The Aldmeri Dominion is waiting for the Empire to make a mistake, and allowing the Stormcloaks to win would be that mistake. Hammerfell was ceded by Titus Mede II once they began to resist the incoming Aldmeri forces. They were forced to allow Hammerfell to act on their own to preserve the Empire. Could they do the same with Skyrim? Easily. But it would only be yet another province lost. The more provinces the Empire loses the more they lose in physical resources, man power, taxes, etc.

 

The Aldemri Dominion is supposed to have the largest navy in Tamriel, which is why I mentioned their navy. It is easy to assume pirates would be unlikely to take one of their vessels. But whether or not their navy remains strong is up in the air. They could form an alliance with the Dunmer though, and thus use Morrowind as a base.

 

The Dunmer hate the Empire for leaving them to fend for themselves. They hate the Argonians for destroying most of southern Morrowind. Granted, they are also long time enemies of the Altmer. However, the hardships of the Dunmer people (The Red Year, The Oblivion Crisis, The Argonian Invasion) and the affect they had on them in recent years would likely weigh in the favor of an alliance with Aldemri Dominion, which is a more ancient rivalry. If the Aldemri Dominion were to assist the Dunmer in eradicating the Argonians in Black Marsh - they could provide a friendly province for the Aldmeri Dominion to attack from. This alliance would likely lead to further conflict down the road for the Aldmeri Dominion (they may go to war with each other after the Second Great War is over), but a chance at uplifting the Dunmer people and exacting revenge on two of their enemies (Argonians and the Empire) would make an alliance with the Aldmeri Dominion very tempting. The Aldmeri Dominion have plenty of options, they are not just stuck behind Cyrodiil (which they have free access to already anyway).

 

Also, I just looked back at your other post. The Umbriel Crisis was averted, in part, by the Imperial Prince. He didn't do it alone obviously, but the Imperials had a hand in it. Now it has been a while since I read the books, but I recall Atrrebus' father having the Imperial Legion defend Cyrodiil the best it could, and against all odds, fared much better then expected. Don't discredit the Empire just because they didn't single handily take control and fix everything. Even Tiber Septim needed help to take over Tamriel. One of the things those books showed is that the Empire cannot do everything by itself. It needs the help of its allies. The whole point of an Empire is to have provinces that work together towards a greater goal. Not working against each other.

[Guest]

 

The Empire did help Hammerfell. The Emperor essentially disavowed the Legionnaires stationed in Hammerfell, which allowed them to continue fighting as independents. The disavowed Imperial forces paired with the Redguards helped push the Aldmeri forces out of Hammerfell. 

 

Hammerfell was ceded by Titus Mede II once they began to resist the incoming Aldmeri forces. They were forced to allow Hammerfell to act on their own to preserve the Empire. Could they do the same with Skyrim? Easily. But it would only be yet another province lost. The more provinces the Empire loses the more they lose in physical resources, man power, taxes, etc.

 

The secession of Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion was a provision of the WGC.

 

And no matter how you put it, ceding territory to an enemy without the consent of the locals, withdrawing forces that the province relied on for protection, and discharging soldiers* who refused to leave is not aid, but rather an act of betrayal.    

 

*Most of whom were probably Redguards anyway

 

 It is true that it has been 25 years since the end of the Great War.  But we also shouldn't forget that it has been 25 years of Cold War between the Empire and the Aldemri Dominion.  If the Empire were to attempt to make massive changes to boost their military strength, the Thalmor would know of it immediately. We must remember that as part of the White Gold Concordat the Thalmor are to have free access to all Imperial provinces, which would include Cyrodiil. This is so the Thalmor may search for illegal Talos worshipers, but it also an obvious way to keep their eyes on the Empire. General Tullius points out at the end of the Civil War quest line that war with the Thalmor is inevitable, and that the stalemate would come to an end sooner than later. The Aldmeri Dominion is waiting for the Empire to make a mistake, and allowing the Stormcloaks to win would be that mistake. 

 

And?  The Aldmeri Dominion lacks the strength to retaliate against the Empire at this moment in time.

 

There is no benefit to continue recognizing the WGC since the Thalmor become more entrenched within the Empire as time goes on.  Its nobles and generals are obligated to attend events hosted by the AD's emissaries.  If the war is inevitable, why wait until the enemy is ready and fight a war on their terms?  

 

And you even brought up the Elder Council's plot to depose old Titus, which makes the Stormcloaks the least of the Empire's problems.

 

The Aldmeri Dominion is supposed to have the largest navy in Tamriel, which is why I mentioned their navy. It is easy to assume pirates would be unlikely to take one of their vessels. But whether or not their navy remains strong is up in the air. They could form an alliance with the Dunmer though, and thus use Morrowind as a base.

 

The Dunmer hate the Empire for leaving them to fend for themselves. They hate the Argonians for destroying most of southern Morrowind. Granted, they are also long time enemies of the Altmer. However, the hardships of the Dunmer people (The Red Year, The Oblivion Crisis, The Argonian Invasion) and the affect they had on them in recent years would likely weigh in the favor of an alliance with Aldemri Dominion, which is a more ancient rivalry. If the Aldemri Dominion were to assist the Dunmer in eradicating the Argonians in Black Marsh - they could provide a friendly province for the Aldmeri Dominion to attack from. This alliance would likely lead to further conflict down the road for the Aldmeri Dominion (they may go to war with each other after the Second Great War is over), but a chance at uplifting the Dunmer people and exacting revenge on two of their enemies (Argonians and the Empire) would make an alliance with the Aldmeri Dominion very tempting. The Aldmeri Dominion have plenty of options, they are not just stuck behind Cyrodiil (which they have free access to already anyway).

 

Highly unrealistic.  

 

The religious beliefs and worldview of the Dunmer run contrary to the goals of the Thalmor.  

 

Furthermore, the idea of an invasion of Black Marsh is pure fantasy.  If Tiber Septim and the Daedra couldn't do it, the Dunmer would be far less capable.  Besides, they are more preoccupied with rebuilding their nation than fighting pointless wars fueled by vengeance.

 

Also, I just looked back at your other post. The Umbriel Crisis was averted, in part, by the Imperial Prince. He didn't do it alone obviously, but the Imperials had a hand in it. Now it has been a while since I read the books, but I recall Atrrebus' father having the Imperial Legion defend Cyrodiil the best it could, and against all odds, fared much better then expected. 

 

Fair enough.

 

Don't discredit the Empire just because they didn't single handily take control and fix everything. 

 

I am not so much discrediting the Empire as I am dispelling your notion that it is as righteous as you make it out to be.

 

Even Tiber Septim needed help to take over Tamriel. One of the things those books showed is that the Empire cannot do everything by itself. It needs the help of its allies. The whole point of an Empire is to have provinces that work together towards a greater goal. Not working against each other.

 

That isn't how it works.  Empires are built and sustained on the subjugation of nations, not mutual cooperation.  

 

If the Empire acted the way you said, there would not have been a civil war since the Emperor would have formally renounced Skyrim as an Imperial province, allowed the Jarls to convene a moot without interference, created a pact between the two states, and withdrawn his soldiers back to Cyrodiil.

 

Instead, the Empire threw Hammerfell to the wolves and forced the Nords to shut up and put up with the Thalmor.