Devious Attributes 2019-5-7

BlueTouchPaper · February 3, 2016

Awesome work! I'd really like to see this hook into Apropos for context-specific messages. Apropos is pretty random at the moment which this could really help with.

m.skynet · February 3, 2016

After thinking about your system a bit more, I came up with following suggestion:

Firstly, I do not see a reason to keep Self-Esteem and Obedience if you already have Pride and Submissiveness (what exactly is the difference there anyway?). Both are too similiar to the other stat, which makes it needlessly confusing. Thus I would recommend to scrap them and/or merge them into the other ones. If you still need something more, you can try to come up with a bit more unique, like a Mind/Reasoning stat or so.

Willpower: Required to disobey your master's command. It will reduces whenever you refuse a command and are being forced/punished for it, depending on how bad the punishment is. For modders it should represent how hard you actually can struggle back.

Pride: The thing your character holds unto in order not to fall into despair. It boosts your Soul State gain when resisting and slow down your loss when obeying.

Fetish traits: Increases whenever you are submitting into following corresponding commands. It has the opposite effect of Pride.

Soul State: It represents your current mental state/resistance. It goes up whenever you fight back, and goes down if you obey. I would recommend to not bind this to specific actors/masters, but rather as a generic stat. For modders this stat might be usefull for deciding what action your master/character might take, that doesn't come with a decision (i.e. your master might punish or reward you on a daily basis, whereas your character has no influence on)

Submissiveness: This is a value only usefull for modders. It shows what direction your character leads to and thus, if you are able to obey or disobey. If it is high, you won't be able to fight back, back if it is low (negative?) your character might refuse to happily obey this comand as well.

When refusing a command, you gain a bit of Soul State (->forced slave). By obeying your pride and soul state go down and its corresponding fetish traits go up. Pride goes up for succeeding in different tasks, while your fetish traits go down over time. That way, your character will "break" if being enslaved for too long, but will be able to recover once you are "freed" again.

Pride and fetisch traits should only accessed by mods in special circumstances. This idea would remove the pride for slaves (do slaves have any "real" pride in the first place?) and would replace it with their fetish traits instead. If you still need a distinct stat for slave-pride I would suggest to create a whole different stat, instead of using pride.

As I said, you have way too many stats that are similiar to each other and it is not that apparent what exactly they do. That makes it easy to be confused and misused by modders. The ideas I suggested above is only a very basic one, but can be modified to add a more stats as well as more complex calculations. Nonethless, it is best to keep the stats and functions a modder has to access as low as possible, in order to keep prevent misuse.

And for how it works for modders:

Basicly, a modder can send a number of decisions to DAtt along with their response type (struggle, obeying, neutral), a corresponding decision type (fetish trait that applies there like masochism and humiliation) and a possible strength modifier for one or both of them (heavily struggling, or very humiliating) as well as the results each decision will lead to (basicly the decision type/fetish trait the as well as it's "strength"). DAtt will then calculate which options you are elligable to choose (a willing slave won't be able to struggle heavily) and changes the character's stats according to the selected decision.

Example:

Your master orders you to "make him feel good". The mod gives Datt following choices:

Disobey and insult the master (struggle heavily)

Do nothing/Ignore (struggle slightly)

Beg for forgiveness (neutral)

Give him a BJ (obey but not eagerly)

Have sex with him (obey eagerly)

Your mod then checks which decisions are elligable. Say you're character is a (heavily) "Forced Slave", then it will only return the first three options.

The player then chooses one of the available options and the mod sends the resulting action back to your mod.

In case you chose to insult your master, the mod will first fire a event that the character chose to struggle strongly (so your Willpower will go accordingly). Your master then decides to punish you by whipping you in public. This will result in humiliating and masochism and will be sent back to DAtt again. DAtt then again will adjust the player's stat accordingly.

This might not be the best way to handle this stuff, but it will at least give you an idea.

Generally speaking, I would love to see this mod to always tend to force the character in becoming a willing slave. This way the player has to choose his decisions carefully (I.E. he should consider obeying more simple and "tame" commands as this will save willpower), but will still lead to submissiveness, if the character is forced in being a slave for too long (a.k.a. being "broken"). If a player doesn't like it that way, he can simply change some settings (like Willpower regeneration) and he is good to go.

I think of this mod being a framework that saves both, the character's mental state and resistance, as well as it's fetish traits. So mods like apropos and aroused can access those and change accordingly.

Also, something you might want to consider: Add a "probability/likeability/resistance" (can't think of a better word) for each trait, that the player can set at the beginning. This value will then change the way specific traits increase/decrease. I.E. a player can choose to be highly resistant to masochism, but vulnerable to exhibitionism. So his character will hardly become a masochistic character, but can become an exhibitionist pretty easily. Those values should be permanent, so they won't change unless the player does so himself in the options.

Well, this is a lot to think about. Thanks for giving me lots of food for thought! :lol:

Not sure that I want to get rid of current attribute structure - as I am trying to model deep, almost subconcious personality traits. (bit impossible task from realism perspective, but we are dealing with a game, not real life, so... )

In any case, your arguments are well thought out and I will definitely consider what you are suggesting. There is something to the notion that the attributes are bit similar to each other, perhaps I should as well think how I give them more distinct meaning in the scheme of things.

About decisions part : ideally, if this was not Papyrus, I would like to do kind of attribute and decision server, so communication of a decision would be in the form of request-response. The response would contain what options the player can and cannot refuse, etc. But, since we are dealing with Papyrus and CK here, I don't think it is possible to do request-response in a meaningful way (I'd be happy to be wrong here)

So, at least for now, I've coded a one-way system, so with the current code, mods that are using Datt will send information about decision, Datt will recalculate stats, and then the using mods will need to read information about changed stat values (or subscribe to notification events) and use the new information to alter mod behavior/logic as needed.

About calculating which options are eligible - this is too opinionated I think - perhaps for some mod it makes sense to only have two choices and not five at some dialog.. My intention here is to allow mod creators that will be using Datt to have maximum flexibility in terms of how to use the stats. I can provide my thoughts and perhaps general guidance, but I am thinking about mod creators that will use Datt as kind-of old school pen&paper RPG dungeon masters that will interpret stats the way it makes sense in the plot they decide to go with.

The intent between Soul State was to model different changes to personality if a player willingly submits or not. I am fully aware that theoretically forced slavery can become willing slavery with time, but so far I think it is bit too complicated to model properly. Not sure that I want to support such process. Also, I think that such transformation process (in theory of course) would take more than days or weeks, but more like months or perhaps years. (and Skyrim usually deals with game-time day/week time-frames -> more than that it would make the game dull/repetitive, and that is the main thing I didn't like in Oblivion's Player Slave Encounters mod - it was too repetitive, not interactive and nothing new happened for long periods of time)

Also, did you have a chance to take a look at usage guide I wrote? (https://github.com/mskynetll/Devious-Attributes/wiki/Usage-guide-%28for-modders%29)

In there, I am trying to explain the rationale and possible usage of the stats. What do you think?

So, after this small wall of text - thanks again for those suggestions! I will definitely think it through

m.skynet · February 3, 2016

Awesome work! I'd really like to see this hook into Apropos for context-specific messages. Apropos is pretty random at the moment which this could really help with.

Yeah, sometimes Apropos messages seem really disconnected from what is happening. I suppose it is also related to issues in animation tags (missing/incorrect tags) - I suspect Apropos relies heavily on animation tagging.

About hooking in it - not sure that it is possible to influence from outside Apropos what messages should be displayed. So I suspect that in this case the hooking will need to be the other way around - Apropos taking information from Devious Attributes

Personally I think the way the current stats operate makes lots of sense, and is definitely "good enough" to work with. The only possible confusion is the effect of low will power vs high submissiveness, but I think that the following distinction makes sense: low will power means you can't refuse, high submissiveness means you must obey. Even if you are very tired (low willpower) that won't be enough to force you agree to do things, you will just do nothing (neutral). High submissiveness (which implies low willpower) means something more, that the PC is beaten and will agree to demands because they don't think there is an alternative. Obedience is a longer term conditioning.

So really all three do similar things, but they operate on different timescales- willpower is short timescale, submissiveness is medium, obedience is long.

As for pride/self esteem, I think the difference is good enough (high self esteem means you are confident you can succeed, pride means you have succeeded in the past and gain confidence from it). That can be used for dialogue flavor and to compute submissiveness.

I think the default values make sense too if they're meant to be for a "normal" character, based on the following thresholds: 50 willpower (1 victim event) is "weakened", making it harder to fight back, 25 willpower (2 victim events) is "very tired" making it impossible to struggle out of difficult restraints, 10 (4 victim events) is "exhausted" (can't do anything but pass out on the spot). Then if I want to make an extremely resilient character i can adjust the willpower decrease to scale appropriately (maybe it should take 10 to get to "weakened"!) and similarly for other stats.

Hmm.. "good enough" means that there can be improvements, right? What improvements do you have in mind?

About low willpower vs. high submissiveness - more or less I am thinking the same. Low willpower can lessen amount of available options per decision, high submissiveness can prevent having a choice, or be a cause of another choice that fits the submissiveness level better.

Also, nice idea about "normal" and "resilient" characters - perhaps creating profiles with different sets of defaults would be a good idea, that would allow better roleplaying.

February 3, 2016

Awesome work! I'd really like to see this hook into Apropos for context-specific messages. Apropos is pretty random at the moment which this could really help with.

Yeah, sometimes Apropos messages seem really disconnected from what is happening. I suppose it is also related to issues in animation tags (missing/incorrect tags) - I suspect Apropos relies heavily on animation tagging.

About hooking in it - not sure that it is possible to influence from outside Apropos what messages should be displayed. So I suspect that in this case the hooking will need to be the other way around - Apropos taking information from Devious Attributes

Personally I think the way the current stats operate makes lots of sense, and is definitely "good enough" to work with. The only possible confusion is the effect of low will power vs high submissiveness, but I think that the following distinction makes sense: low will power means you can't refuse, high submissiveness means you must obey. Even if you are very tired (low willpower) that won't be enough to force you agree to do things, you will just do nothing (neutral). High submissiveness (which implies low willpower) means something more, that the PC is beaten and will agree to demands because they don't think there is an alternative. Obedience is a longer term conditioning.

So really all three do similar things, but they operate on different timescales- willpower is short timescale, submissiveness is medium, obedience is long.

As for pride/self esteem, I think the difference is good enough (high self esteem means you are confident you can succeed, pride means you have succeeded in the past and gain confidence from it). That can be used for dialogue flavor and to compute submissiveness.

I think the default values make sense too if they're meant to be for a "normal" character, based on the following thresholds: 50 willpower (1 victim event) is "weakened", making it harder to fight back, 25 willpower (2 victim events) is "very tired" making it impossible to struggle out of difficult restraints, 10 (4 victim events) is "exhausted" (can't do anything but pass out on the spot). Then if I want to make an extremely resilient character i can adjust the willpower decrease to scale appropriately (maybe it should take 10 to get to "weakened"!) and similarly for other stats.

Hmm.. "good enough" means that there can be improvements, right? What improvements do you have in mind?

About low willpower vs. high submissiveness - more or less I am thinking the same. Low willpower can lessen amount of available options per decision, high submissiveness can prevent having a choice, or be a cause of another choice that fits the submissiveness level better.

Also, nice idea about "normal" and "resilient" characters - perhaps creating profiles with different sets of defaults would be a good idea, that would allow better roleplaying.

When I said it was good enough I just meant that they are similar but not the same, and it might not be worthwhile doing a revamp just to get rid of one or the other. I like that they are calculated in different ways, even if they were called pride 1 and pride 2 I think it would be good to keep both .

February 4, 2016

This is amazing I thought i would just stop by and thank you for working on this I can't wait until its finished

m.skynet · February 4, 2016

Awesome work! I'd really like to see this hook into Apropos for context-specific messages. Apropos is pretty random at the moment which this could really help with.

Yeah, sometimes Apropos messages seem really disconnected from what is happening. I suppose it is also related to issues in animation tags (missing/incorrect tags) - I suspect Apropos relies heavily on animation tagging.

About hooking in it - not sure that it is possible to influence from outside Apropos what messages should be displayed. So I suspect that in this case the hooking will need to be the other way around - Apropos taking information from Devious Attributes

Personally I think the way the current stats operate makes lots of sense, and is definitely "good enough" to work with. The only possible confusion is the effect of low will power vs high submissiveness, but I think that the following distinction makes sense: low will power means you can't refuse, high submissiveness means you must obey. Even if you are very tired (low willpower) that won't be enough to force you agree to do things, you will just do nothing (neutral). High submissiveness (which implies low willpower) means something more, that the PC is beaten and will agree to demands because they don't think there is an alternative. Obedience is a longer term conditioning.

So really all three do similar things, but they operate on different timescales- willpower is short timescale, submissiveness is medium, obedience is long.

As for pride/self esteem, I think the difference is good enough (high self esteem means you are confident you can succeed, pride means you have succeeded in the past and gain confidence from it). That can be used for dialogue flavor and to compute submissiveness.

I think the default values make sense too if they're meant to be for a "normal" character, based on the following thresholds: 50 willpower (1 victim event) is "weakened", making it harder to fight back, 25 willpower (2 victim events) is "very tired" making it impossible to struggle out of difficult restraints, 10 (4 victim events) is "exhausted" (can't do anything but pass out on the spot). Then if I want to make an extremely resilient character i can adjust the willpower decrease to scale appropriately (maybe it should take 10 to get to "weakened"!) and similarly for other stats.

Hmm.. "good enough" means that there can be improvements, right? What improvements do you have in mind?

About low willpower vs. high submissiveness - more or less I am thinking the same. Low willpower can lessen amount of available options per decision, high submissiveness can prevent having a choice, or be a cause of another choice that fits the submissiveness level better.

Also, nice idea about "normal" and "resilient" characters - perhaps creating profiles with different sets of defaults would be a good idea, that would allow better roleplaying.

When I said it was good enough I just meant that they are similar but not the same, and it might not be worthwhile doing a revamp just to get rid of one or the other. I like that they are calculated in different ways, even if they were called pride 1 and pride 2 I think it would be good to keep both .

Oh, I see. I have not decided yet, but I am strongly leaning towards leaving pride and self-esteem in place, if only for role-playing purposes. Moreover, mods that are using Devious Attribute would be able to use them to make more immersive experience - more options to choose from when designing interactions. (I imagine lots of really interesting interactions can potentially be based upon pride and self-esteem )

This is amazing I thought i would just stop by and thank you for working on this I can't wait until its finished

Thanks for your kind words This mod has been brewing in my head for a while... Also, this is my way to say "thanks" to this awesome community - I've enjoyed LoversLab content, and I am really happy that I can contribute back at least something

Krazyone · February 4, 2016

IDEA... Stat icons...

The mod ineeds, has 3 stat icons that show what level of HUNGER, THIRST and SLEEP the person has.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/51473/?

I was thinking, that if you had the knowledge, or were able to work out how the ineeds mods works with icons.

Then you could add some simple icons to the screen, to show the players basic stats...

I am not quite sure what these icons would be, but I have some ideas.

You could have the icons filling up with colour. Going green for good, and red for bad. The icon filling up with red, as bad choices are made...

:angel: Good / Bad... an angels halo icon. How people see you, a devil or an angel. Devils aggressively win verbal contests, but lose in shop prices. Angels get picked on more, raped more, but get better deals in shops...

Pictures of Devil Icons...

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A2KLj.rPrbNWxGgAcmFNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwNQRfcgMyBGJjawM0YTdwYmdkYjl0a3I3JTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEb2gEZnIDY2hyLXlvX2djBGdwcmlkA09FZXI4MG92VG5XUEg5WmFMY1hzQkEEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMARxdWVyeQNkZXZpbCBpY29uBHRfc3RtcAMxNDU0NjE2MTgzBHZ0ZXN0aWQDbnVsbA--?gprid=OEer80ovTnWPH9ZaLcXsBA&pvid=Eh5g8DcyLjNFHyuDVp7TZxMFODIuNAAAAAAu4J7t&p=devil+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=sb-top-uk.images.search.yahoo.com&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

-o-o-o- Obedience... a chain icon. Signifying you path towards bondage. More red, more bondage. Physical icon... When it starts filling with red, you'd better stay out of devious devices, and rape situations. As you will attract more bad things happening to you...

Pictures of Chain Icons...

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A9mSs2jIrbNWcRwAzetLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0ZTgxN3Q0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=chain+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=piv-web#id=318&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.dreamstime.com%2Ft%2Fchain-icon-vector-illustrations-52518406.jpg&action=click

Pictures of Slave Icons...

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Az_6xdlYr7NWjGIA1SdNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwNQRfcgMyBGJjawM0YTdwYmdkYjl0a3I3JTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEb2gEZnIDY2hyLXlvX2djBGdwcmlkAzgublguMVpGUVhTVmFHTmwzOGw5NkEEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fc3VnZwMwBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMARxdWVyeQNzbGF2ZSBpY29uBHRfc3RtcAMxNDU0NjE2NTM4BHZ0ZXN0aWQDbnVsbA--?gprid=8.nX.1ZFQXSVaGNl38l96A&pvid=cgUjpTcyLjNFHyuDVp7TZxMsODIuNAAAAABGVQ0R&p=slave+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=sb-top-uk.images.search.yahoo.com&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

Mental Strength... an arm flexing. Signifying mental strength or weakness... aka... you cannot say no... A verbal choices icon.

Pictures of Mental Icons

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A2KLj.rPrbNWxGgAcmFNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwNQRfcgMyBGJjawM0YTdwYmdkYjl0a3I3JTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEb2gEZnIDY2hyLXlvX2djBGdwcmlkA1U2NnRQWGRxU1c2TkwuQ3FhbHl0Q0EEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMQRxdWVyeQNNZW50YWwgaWNvbgR0X3N0bXADMTQ1NDYxNjI4MwR2dGVzdGlkA251bGw-?gprid=U66tPXdqSW6NL.CqalytCA&pvid=Eh5g8DcyLjNFHyuDVp7TZxMFODIuNAAAAAAu4J7t&p=Mental+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=sb-top-uk.images.search.yahoo.com&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

Feelings text... You could have dialogue text, on the top or bottom of the screen to say how you feel...

Potential text for feeling...

- You are feeling happy

- You are feeling sad

- You are feeling strong

- You are feeling submissive

- You are feeling more dominant

- You are feeling aroused

- You are feeling like everyone is watching you

- You feel uncomfortable in you devices

- You like the feeling of being bound

- Your mind is weak

- Your mind is strong

- Everyone is looking at you

- You feel safe

- You are feeling vulnerable

A key press, on the keyboard. Could bring up your status...

These are just some basic ideas for a simple mental health icon set, or mood dialogue texts... I have no idea of how hard or easy it would be to use...

ddt4ever · February 4, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

m.skynet · February 4, 2016

IDEA... Stat icons...

The mod ineeds, has 3 stat icons that show what level of HUNGER, THIRST and SLEEP the person has.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/51473/?

I was thinking, that if you had the knowledge, or were able to work out how the ineeds mods works with icons.

Then you could add some simple icons to the screen, to show the players basic stats...

I am not quite sure what these icons would be, but I have some ideas.

You could have the icons filling up with colour. Going green for good, and red for bad. The icon filling up with red, as bad choices are made...

Good / Bad... an angels halo icon. How people see you, a devil or an angel. Devils aggressively win verbal contests, but lose in shop prices. Angels get picked on more, raped more, but get better deals in shops...

Pictures of Devil Icons...

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A2KLj.rPrbNWxGgAcmFNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwNQRfcgMyBGJjawM0YTdwYmdkYjl0a3I3JTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEb2gEZnIDY2hyLXlvX2djBGdwcmlkA09FZXI4MG92VG5XUEg5WmFMY1hzQkEEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMARxdWVyeQNkZXZpbCBpY29uBHRfc3RtcAMxNDU0NjE2MTgzBHZ0ZXN0aWQDbnVsbA--?gprid=OEer80ovTnWPH9ZaLcXsBA&pvid=Eh5g8DcyLjNFHyuDVp7TZxMFODIuNAAAAAAu4J7t&p=devil+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=sb-top-uk.images.search.yahoo.com&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

-o-o-o- Obedience... a chain icon. Signifying you path towards bondage. More red, more bondage. Physical icon... When it starts filling with red, you'd better stay out of devious devices, and rape situations. As you will attract more bad things happening to you...

Pictures of Chain Icons...

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A9mSs2jIrbNWcRwAzetLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0ZTgxN3Q0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=chain+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=piv-web#id=318&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.dreamstime.com%2Ft%2Fchain-icon-vector-illustrations-52518406.jpg&action=click

Pictures of Slave Icons...

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Az_6xdlYr7NWjGIA1SdNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwNQRfcgMyBGJjawM0YTdwYmdkYjl0a3I3JTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEb2gEZnIDY2hyLXlvX2djBGdwcmlkAzgublguMVpGUVhTVmFHTmwzOGw5NkEEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fc3VnZwMwBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMARxdWVyeQNzbGF2ZSBpY29uBHRfc3RtcAMxNDU0NjE2NTM4BHZ0ZXN0aWQDbnVsbA--?gprid=8.nX.1ZFQXSVaGNl38l96A&pvid=cgUjpTcyLjNFHyuDVp7TZxMsODIuNAAAAABGVQ0R&p=slave+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=sb-top-uk.images.search.yahoo.com&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

Mental Strength... an arm flexing. Signifying mental strength or weakness... aka... you cannot say no... A verbal choices icon.

Pictures of Mental Icons

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A2KLj.rPrbNWxGgAcmFNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwNQRfcgMyBGJjawM0YTdwYmdkYjl0a3I3JTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEb2gEZnIDY2hyLXlvX2djBGdwcmlkA1U2NnRQWGRxU1c2TkwuQ3FhbHl0Q0EEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMQRxdWVyeQNNZW50YWwgaWNvbgR0X3N0bXADMTQ1NDYxNjI4MwR2dGVzdGlkA251bGw-?gprid=U66tPXdqSW6NL.CqalytCA&pvid=Eh5g8DcyLjNFHyuDVp7TZxMFODIuNAAAAAAu4J7t&p=Mental+icon&fr=chr-yo_gc&fr2=sb-top-uk.images.search.yahoo.com&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

Feelings text... You could have dialogue text, on the top or bottom of the screen to say how you feel...

Potential text for feeling...

- You are feeling happy

- You are feeling sad

- You are feeling strong

- You are feeling submissive

- You are feeling more dominant

- You are feeling aroused

- You are feeling like everyone is watching you

- You feel uncomfortable in you devices

- You like the feeling of being bound

- Your mind is weak

- Your mind is strong

- Everyone is looking at you

- You feel safe

- You are feeling vulnerable

A key press, on the keyboard. Could bring up your status...

These are just some basic ideas for a simple mental health icon set, or mood dialogue texts... I have no idea of how hard or easy it would be to use...

Hmm.. very interesting, haven't thought about this. Thanks for bringing this up.

Regarding stat icons: I currently have no idea how this is done, but I will take a look at the mod you linked. I doubt it is hard to do, and I think it is a good idea to add some kind of visual notification for attribute status.

Regarding feeling text: good idea, and with the current state of the code shouldn't be hard to implement. I will include it in my todo list for the next version

m.skynet · February 4, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

Hmm.. weird, since Devious Attribute doesn't touch anything that could conflict with defeat or death alternative, and I definitely didn't add anything that gives such message.

The possible reason that comes in my mind is the pride buff/debuff that is introduced in 0.5.0 - on low pride it should decrease maximum health.

The decrease is calculated in this way :

if pride is between 25 and 50 then decrease health by 0.25 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

if pride is less than 25 then decrease health by 0.5 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

Now I am thinking that it should be tweaked - too much debuff theoretically can cause issues with health levels

I've tested in on a low level character... Is it possible that your character is a high level one with relatively low health? If you start a new game with 0.5.0 version, does the same effect happen?

In any case, I will make a fix so this won't happen

Knaeggchen · February 4, 2016

Personally, I do not like the idea of having visual status icons that much. Kinda breaks the immersion, this mod is trying to build. I am fine with having a status icon for stuff like Willpower, but your general stats should be displayed "differently". Examples would be like different kind of animations for different cases (a proud stance with high pride, or a very tired and humbled one for low pride) and text displays similiar to apropos. Thought the latter I would recommend to be handled by apropos itself, or rather being an addon to it (maybe you can get in touch with the author?)

ddt4ever · February 4, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

Hmm.. weird, since Devious Attribute doesn't touch anything that could conflict with defeat or death alternative, and I definitely didn't add anything that gives such message.

The possible reason that comes in my mind is the pride buff/debuff that is introduced in 0.5.0 - on low pride it should decrease maximum health.

The decrease is calculated in this way :

if pride is between 25 and 50 then decrease health by 0.25 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

if pride is less than 25 then decrease health by 0.5 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

Now I am thinking that it should be tweaked - too much debuff theoretically can cause issues with health levels

I've tested in on a low level character... Is it possible that your character is a high level one with relatively low health? If you start a new game with 0.5.0 version, does the same effect happen?

In any case, I will make a fix so this won't happen

This sounds reasonable. My char is level 56 has 280 health, a pride of 36 and a masochist level of 0 (0.4.2). This means I my health decrease would be more than 300 points. And now that you mention it the health bar was completely empty as it showed when i switched to free cam.

The message most likely was from death alternative or defeat. But as my settings there need an enemy for action I was stuck.

Perhaps you should go for a percentage debuff and no absolute number, so this can no longer happer. Or you could swith to a slower regeneration rate.

Thank you for the fast answer. I will wait for a fix.

m.skynet · February 4, 2016

Personally, I do not like the idea of having visual status icons that much. Kinda breaks the immersion, this mod is trying to build. I am fine with having a status icon for stuff like Willpower, but your general stats should be displayed "differently". Examples would be like different kind of animations for different cases (a proud stance with high pride, or a very tired and humbled one for low pride) and text displays similiar to apropos. Thought the latter I would recommend to be handled by apropos itself, or rather being an addon to it (maybe you can get in touch with the author?)

Not sure how well animations can convey state of mind like low/high pride without being exaggerated or too cartoonish. In any case, I do not plan to force visual stuff like icons, so if I do implement them, I will implement MCM config toggle to show/hide them as well.

Regarding displaying text messages and doing Apropos integration/addon -

1) most likely I will do text messages that describe large attribute changes - something like - pride was 50 now it is 75 -> display "You are feeling very headstrong and proud..."

2) having apropos message content change with stats changes is something that could be really nice I think. When I get to integrating with other mods (hopefully soon), I will contact Apropos author about doing addon that will integrate with Devious Attributes

m.skynet · February 4, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

Hmm.. weird, since Devious Attribute doesn't touch anything that could conflict with defeat or death alternative, and I definitely didn't add anything that gives such message.

The possible reason that comes in my mind is the pride buff/debuff that is introduced in 0.5.0 - on low pride it should decrease maximum health.

The decrease is calculated in this way :

if pride is between 25 and 50 then decrease health by 0.25 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

if pride is less than 25 then decrease health by 0.5 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

Now I am thinking that it should be tweaked - too much debuff theoretically can cause issues with health levels

I've tested in on a low level character... Is it possible that your character is a high level one with relatively low health? If you start a new game with 0.5.0 version, does the same effect happen?

In any case, I will make a fix so this won't happen

This sounds reasonable. My char is level 56 has 280 health, a pride of 36 and a masochist level of 0 (0.4.2). This means I my health decrease would be more than 300 points. And now that you mention it the health bar was completely empty as it showed when i switched to free cam.

The message most likely was from death alternative or defeat. But as my settings there need an enemy for action I was stuck.

Perhaps you should go for a percentage debuff and no absolute number, so this can no longer happer. Or you could swith to a slower regeneration rate.

Thank you for the fast answer. I will wait for a fix.

I've uploaded a fix, so what you've seen shouldn't happen. Also, it should work for in-place upgrade of the save from 0.4.2 version. After the upgrade the attribute effects should be disabled; they can be enabled from MCM. Can you try 0.5.1 version?

Gagoloth · February 5, 2016

Personally, I do not like the idea of having visual status icons that much. Kinda breaks the immersion, this mod is trying to build. I am fine with having a status icon for stuff like Willpower, but your general stats should be displayed "differently". Examples would be like different kind of animations for different cases (a proud stance with high pride, or a very tired and humbled one for low pride) and text displays similiar to apropos. Thought the latter I would recommend to be handled by apropos itself, or rather being an addon to it (maybe you can get in touch with the author?)

Not sure how well animations can convey state of mind like low/high pride without being exaggerated or too cartoonish. In any case, I do not plan to force visual stuff like icons, so if I do implement them, I will implement MCM config toggle to show/hide them as well.

Regarding displaying text messages and doing Apropos integration/addon -

1) most likely I will do text messages that describe large attribute changes - something like - pride was 50 now it is 75 -> display "You are feeling very headstrong and proud..."

2) having apropos message content change with stats changes is something that could be really nice I think. When I get to integrating with other mods (hopefully soon), I will contact Apropos author about doing addon that will integrate with Devious Attributes

This just keeps getting better and better. Keep up the good work!

ddt4ever · February 5, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

Hmm.. weird, since Devious Attribute doesn't touch anything that could conflict with defeat or death alternative, and I definitely didn't add anything that gives such message.

The possible reason that comes in my mind is the pride buff/debuff that is introduced in 0.5.0 - on low pride it should decrease maximum health.

The decrease is calculated in this way :

if pride is between 25 and 50 then decrease health by 0.25 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

if pride is less than 25 then decrease health by 0.5 * (PlayerLevel * 25) * (1.0 - (masochist / 100.0))

Now I am thinking that it should be tweaked - too much debuff theoretically can cause issues with health levels

I've tested in on a low level character... Is it possible that your character is a high level one with relatively low health? If you start a new game with 0.5.0 version, does the same effect happen?

In any case, I will make a fix so this won't happen

This sounds reasonable. My char is level 56 has 280 health, a pride of 36 and a masochist level of 0 (0.4.2). This means I my health decrease would be more than 300 points. And now that you mention it the health bar was completely empty as it showed when i switched to free cam.

The message most likely was from death alternative or defeat. But as my settings there need an enemy for action I was stuck.

Perhaps you should go for a percentage debuff and no absolute number, so this can no longer happer. Or you could swith to a slower regeneration rate.

Thank you for the fast answer. I will wait for a fix.

I've uploaded a fix, so what you've seen shouldn't happen. Also, it should work for in-place upgrade of the save from 0.4.2 version. After the upgrade the attribute effects should be disabled; they can be enabled from MCM. Can you try 0.5.1 version?

Version 0.5.1 works just fine. Thank you very much for the quick fix and your great work.

owi2000 · February 5, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

That actually sounds exactly like what is supposed to happen in the Deviously Helpless mod, are you sure you're not using that mod, or that's not what's causing it?

ddt4ever · February 5, 2016

@ m.skynet

First I want to thank you for your work. I really like your mod but I had a problem after i updated from 0.4.2 to 0.5.0. At the moment my savegame loaded and Devious Attributes initialized I got the message "You aren't able to fight anymore" and my char dropped to its knees like it was defeated or a death alternative event took place. But nothing else happened and I was stuck in this animation. I tried different save games and it was always the same.

After downgrading to version 0.4.2 all worked without problems again. Could it be that the new version of the mod conflicts with defeat or death alternative?

That actually sounds exactly like what is supposed to happen in the Deviously Helpless mod, are you sure you're not using that mod, or that's not what's causing it?

Yes, I'm using Deviously Helpless. But this was not the problem. The problem was the pride debuff from Devious Attributes. My char is high level but has few hits. With the debuff as it was calculated in 0.5.0 my health was reduced by 300. But I only had 280. So everytime the debuff was activated I died and Death Alternative kicked in. But it is fixed with version 0.5.1 now. In this version you can modify the pride debuff as you see fit.

February 6, 2016

Should willpower be increasing very rapidly, even when all MCM options are set to 0? It did not increase this quickly in the old versions. I'm wondering if it's an issue with my savegame.

m.skynet · February 6, 2016

Should willpower be increasing very rapidly, even when all MCM options are set to 0? It did not increase this quickly in the old versions. I'm wondering if it's an issue with my savegame.

How rapid is rapid? Can you enable debug messages and look at willpower periodic ticks?

Haven't tested on MCM options at 0, I will test.

Edit : looked again at the code and what you describe makes sense.

each update tick, willpower is calculated with the following formula:

willpower = Min(Constants.MaxStatValue,willpower + ((tickBonus + Config.WillpowerBaseTickPerTimeUnit) * hoursSinceLastUpdate))

where tickBonus is calculated like this : tickBonus = (0.05 * SelfEsteem) + (0.05 * pride)

So even if you set WillpowerBaseTickPerTimeUnit to zero in MCM, willpower still will increase

I think in the next version I will make MCM config to set percentage taken from attributes for the tick bonus

m.skynet · February 7, 2016

Added new version 0.6.0

This is mostly maintenance release, with rewriting some of the features to be more robust

Added 0.1.0 version of Devious Attributes - Devious Consequences

This is satellite mod to Devious Attributes, that will provide integration with DD related mods.

So far I've done couple of debuffs that are related to DD devices. (still learning on how to interact with DDi and learning some new features of the Creation Kit - so stuff gets done more efficiently)

Also,I must add that I am really anticipate the next version of SD+, so I can properly integrate with it

I'd like to hear feedback about existing debuffs in Devious Attributes - Devious Consequences - are they too harsh? too mild? do they make sense? (this is an important point for me, as I want the debuffs to make sense. For example, the rationale behind armbinder debuff : the more hours PC wears armbinder, the more arms become numb and muscles sore, twisted in a rigid pose. When armbinder is taken off, it takes time for arms to be restored to their healthy state, causing temporary decrease in fighting skills)

Also, I'd like some suggestions about possible DD debuffs, for various devices. I want to add debuffs for most, if not all devices, since wearing restraints for lengthy time periods will not be without consequences

Zdun · February 7, 2016

Hello,

I am looking forward to see this mod working. One entry in change log raised my concerns

- migrating attributes to use GlobalVariables (if debugging can set their values through console, also will allow more robust effects)

I was expecting that you will not use global variables but create access functions for your module (like get av something)

m.skynet · February 7, 2016

Hello,

I am looking forward to see this mod working. One entry in change log raised my concerns

- migrating attributes to use GlobalVariables (if debugging can set their values through console, also will allow more robust effects)
I was expecting that you will not use global variables but create access functions for your module (like get av something)

Not sure that I understand what you mean by "acess functions"

Since 0.6.0 Devious attributes listens to "change attribute" event that other mods can send. The attributes can still be read by StorageUtil script, but not be changed.

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Devious Attributes 2019-5-7

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