Long letter to those sexy modders (my critics, thoughts, idears)

[Coopervane]

Now now...by that logic are we saying that only authors can be book critics? artist can be art critics? actors/directors for movies? and game developers for games and the like? and in this case modders for mods critics?

 

 

People don't become critics of something unless they know a lot about the subject. A book critic may not have authored a book themselves, but you can bet they understand the art of story telling, that they will recognize phrases like "the 3-act structure" or "the hero's journey", that they know what a trope is and it's function, that they know what a McGuffin is, and so on and so forth.

 

Books and art are not a good comparison to modding though, you can write anything you want in a book, paint a picture of anything you want, your own creativity and skill is the only real limit. Making a mod is more like creating a piece of technology, more like designing a new smartphone than writing a book, it's not all driven by ideas, there are real limitations in place that the modder can't just undo. And thus, it's quite unfair to criticize the mod author for not having magically crossed that barrier.

 

 

You don't have to have created a mod to make useful critique of mods, but you do have to have a working knowledge of how modding works, and atleast some idea of what this tech can and can't do. Else, you're just a daydreamer sitting there sharing your "woulden't it be cool if" ideas, which is nice and all, but it's not actually a critique, nor is it useful as a critique.

 

 

Woulden't it be cool if my cellphone was also a jetpack..

[Jexsam]

 

Now now...by that logic are we saying that only authors can be book critics? artist can be art critics? actors/directors for movies? and game developers for games and the like? and in this case modders for mods critics?

 

 

People don't become critics of something unless they know a lot about the subject.

 

Everybody's a critic. And I'm not just saying that - it's true. Regardless how much experience you have in something, you tend to form an opinion of it and decide whether or not you like it, usually for some kind of reason. The moment you voice that reasoning, you have become a critic of whatever it is you're talking about.

 

That's not to say knowledgeable critics don't provide more valuable insight, as having a knowledge base about a subject tends to make ones opinions more educated. But that's not necessarily a given, and it doesn't mean the unknowledgeable average joe can't have a valid criticism. Views from the outside can be very valuable. Blocking criticisms out based on qualification prevents fresh ideas from outside that experience from entering, which can cause stagnation.

 

Not that any discussion of this matters since the OP isn't a criticism of anything, it's an overlong whine about the state of modding not being what he wants it to be, wondering why modders aren't trying harder to conform to his vision, and just short of demanding modders make what he wants because he'd rather wank than do something constructive. The sheer amount of dismissive entitlement is staggering.

 

OP does have some valid points buried in that post, though. There's virtually no work of note on immersive transitions, and his theory of short-and-quick animnations to get an idea across without the need for strict accuracy is already proven possible - vanilla Skyrim already does it, albeit rarely. See - NPCs checking bodies or picking things up off the ground.

[GimmeBACON]

As I was reading this the only thing that came to mind was, 'I couldn't get a person to tell me how to manually switch combat animations, or switch meshes and textures, and you're expecting someone to recreate the entire sexlab mechanics from the ground up just for you?' Have fun waiting for that day buddy.   OP post comes off more like a spoiled teenager who wants money for a car, but isn't willing to get a job, then a 'critic' anyway.

 

I don't know if everybody is going to understand or accept what I'm saying, but everybody is a critic, almost to the point where nobodies ideas are valid to the creator. If a modder readjusted his dream for what everybody else wanted, I think Skyrim would have about..... zero mods. The fact is the mod users need to be more accepting that what they get very well may be as close to what they want, and if they DO get what they want, then it's a small victory for them.

[Coopervane]

Everybody's a critic. And I'm not just saying that - it's true.

 

No, everyone has an opinion, which is all well and good, but not everyone can offer critique. Infact, the term "everyone's a critic" is ment as a burn against people trying to pass off their opinions as critique, rather than beeing a literal statement.

 

 

An opinion is saying "I don't like this, i think it's bad".

 

A critique is saying "I don't like this, because when you do X it causes a problem for Y, the two mechanics don't synergize well, which is a problem that could have been solved by doing Z instead".

 

 

For something to be considdered a critique (as in, used in the context that the OP used this word), it needs to go beyond just an opinion and actually analyze the subject matter, offer good reasons why the author finds it good or bad. That's why beeing a "critic" or "reviewer" can be a job, it actually requires some skill and knowledge of the subject matter, and the abillity to critically analyze it and explain the reasoning behind your opinion of the work.

 

It's also why offering critique on a subject matter you're not very well versed in is a bad idea, as you won't be able to offer very good critique of it, which in turn makes your critique a valid target of critique.

 

Simply sharing your opinion is called an "opinion-piece", not a "critique" or "review".

 

 

Yes, i am well aware that this is arguing semantics, and normally i woulden't, but how could i resist given this pitch?

[mybrainhurts]

In other words:

 

 

I would like to have a mod where you could grope, slap and pinch butts or breasts of any npc via dialog menu which would - maybe dependend on the arousal level or perks - trigger different reactions: a) a invitation for sex b ) 'get lost' comment c) brawl/fight d) call guards and beeing sent to prison.

 

 

 

[afa]

 

Everybody's a critic. And I'm not just saying that - it's true.

 

No, everyone has an opinion, which is all well and good, but not everyone can offer critique. Infact, the term "everyone's a critic" is ment as a burn against people trying to pass off their opinions as critique, rather than beeing a literal statement.

 

 

An opinion is saying "I don't like this, i think it's bad".

 

A critique is saying "I don't like this, because when you do X it causes a problem for Y, the two mechanics don't synergize well, which is a problem that could have been solved by doing Z instead".

 

 

For something to be considdered a critique (as in, used in the context that the OP used this word), it needs to go beyond just an opinion and actually analyze the subject matter, offer good reasons why the author finds it good or bad. That's why beeing a "critic" or "reviewer" can be a job, it actually requires some skill and knowledge of the subject matter, and the abillity to critically analyze it and explain the reasoning behind your opinion of the work.

 

It's also why offering critique on a subject matter you're not very well versed in is a bad idea, as you won't be able to offer very good critique of it, which in turn makes your critique a valid target of critique.

 

Simply sharing your opinion is called an "opinion-piece", not a "critique" or "review".

 

 

Yes, i am well aware that this is arguing semantics, and normally i woulden't, but how could i resist given this pitch?

 

Ok I think we are on the same page here, but there are points that I think should be address regarding this.

Critic or review is still an opinion. The line between opinion-piece, critique, or review, is imo very fine.

We can quickly slide into critic of critics territory very quickly  especially in gaming and game reviews.

If we can agree on that a mod is a piece of technology as you propose then I think we can extend that concept to say a game is also a piece of technology.

 

This is super nitpicking here but in the example proposed regarding how a critic would address an issue regarding if s/he does not like something is no different than an opinion.

The reasoning that is put forth as arguments could also be subjected to interpretation.

Lastly and possibility the most dangerously part, offering "solutions". Ok this is weird sounding. Offering solution seems like the be all and end all of criticism, you brought out an issue and now you offer a solution. As the old saying goes "if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem," and here is the solution done and done...

Or is it? What if the solution is actually bad? What if the solution only works in the critic's head something that will satisfy the critic but not others? Now we are starting to entrench into "why you make this? do this instead" territory.

 

BTW the critic offering solutions and was implemented then turns out poor are true stories in gaming industry.

If you are reading reviews carefully you will notice rarely does "big named published "professional" reviewers" offer a black and white solution to issues that they have with a game especially when is in preview state. They might skirt around it and offers (usually multiple) suggestions when it comes to direction.

 

There's also something regarding varying "skill" of a critic and I guess in this case varying skill of modders in question, but that's for another discussion

[Gone]

I think people need to calm down attacking the OP here. I think the points they brought up are really valid and touch on some of the frustration I've felt with adult modding in Skyrim as well. It's interesting how nobody is adressing their points, but instead are saying either "you can't make it yourself so you can't talk!" or "the modders have already given us amazing things! quit complaining and enjoy what you have!"

 

I dislike it whenever people have the mentality of "if you can't do it better yourself, quit complaining!" The reality is that critiques and opinions are valuable and can often push a discussion forward or make something better. My contribution to the Skyrim adult community was created due to people's frustration with the lack of creature sex in the game. I'm sure many modders can say the same type of thing motivated their modding; that they wanted to see a void filled in the game that was previously unfilled. I wasn't particularly jumping at the opportunity to spend dozens (maybe hundreds?) of hours making animations, and I definately wouldn't have done it if people didn't voice their opinions that they wanted it. At the time, FNIS had creature support so the ability to have sex mods with creatures was there, but nobody was making anything. People were frustrated, and although I had no experience modding any Bethesda game, I decided to give it a try to fill that void that was clearly lacking. I actually remember people back then told people who wanted these mods "quit complaining, we'll get these mods when we get them", but in reality I probably wouldn't have made the mod if the complainers followed their advice.

 

Of course, the modder's personal motivation with the project has a large part to do with them actually making it, but the community has at least some part to play in the modder's motivation to complete and release a mod, otherwise they would just keep it to themselves. For me, filling that void in the community was my primary motivation, as I couldn't even see my animations in-game throughout the entirety of the development of the mod, so there was no personal payoff for me.

 

So TLDR, don't berate people for complaining, being frustrated and critiquing, as all of these are valuable for modders (both current and potential) to know what people want. As long as you aren't attacking any person or any mod specifically, I don't see the issue. The way the OP presented his post was very respectful to the modders, so I don't see why there is such a huge backlash.

 

----

 

Anyway, I'd like to try to move this discussion toward adressing the OP's points specifically, as I've been thinking similar things for a little bit. It's hard to deny that right now the sexual aspect to Skyrim with these mods and the original game of Skyrim are very loosely connected. Basically, you are either playing the game, or you triggered something that made sex happen, and usually this thing is pretty arbitrary like a dialog option or a spell. I'd say the best scenario you have right now with seamless integration between gameplay and sex are mods like Defeat, where if someone loses in combat against an opponent the opponent has sex with the defeated person. But even then, the transition is pretty awkward. First, you start out fighting with someone and have full control. Then, if you are the one defated in combat, you enter a staggered stage and control is taken away from you. Then, after a few seconds of standing there, you are both naked and sex is happening.

 

I'm not knocking Defeat by any means, I think it's perfect as a mod on its own. But that's the problem, most of these mods are made in isolation and focus on one thing without really communicating with one another. This is a big problem in my mod as well. An animator would have to make a transitional animation between the gameplay and sex for Defeat. But who's going to make a bunch of animations that might never be used? I actually spent a bit of time experimenting with the idea of transitional animations about a year ago, but the process was demotivating, because I didn't know when or if my work would ever make it into a mod.

 

For the future of adult mods I'd like to see more collaborations between multiple modders to help bridge these gaps more easily. The best thing you have right now for collaborations are mod dependancies, IE most mods rely on Sexlab so every mod doesn't need to program sex with npcs. It would be nice to see collaboration within individual mods and some bigger mods be attempted to brige the gap between gameplay and sexual interaction. In an ideal world, I think it would be awesome if there were huge mods that focused on specific play styles, like a mod that changes the game to fits a submissive female character, for example (you could imagine other playstyles). Of course, this is more easily said then done, because ultimately it is easier just to do something yourself. Also, to make this work really well, you'd have to have many disciplines working together, including scripting, game design, animation, modeling, writing, sound design and (most difficult) voice acting. Once agin, trying to find people good at all these disciplines is difficult, let alone getting them to work together on something. Figuring out an infrastructure that allows that collaboration to happen more easily should be something we modders should think about, since I think it will only make the mods better.

 

Maybe with Fallout 4 being the new hotness, people will attempt more ambitious mods for that. I would like to see this attempted for Skyrim, but I have a feeling it will get at lot less attention when F4 comes out, so it might not be worth investing the effort at this point. You never know, but I think this would be a good direction for adult modding that I'd really like to see.

[Coopervane]

Nobody's been interested in addressing the OP's points because they are unrealistic.

 

Things are the way they are for a reason, it's born out of the limitations of the game engine, not out of the lazyness of modders, so unless Bethesda suddenly releases a patch that vastly improves the engine (which they obviously won't), then there's not a whole lot that can be done about that.

 

 

Would it look cool to have a scene play out between asking for sex and the animation playing, so the actors would line up properly and transition smoothly? Sure! But would i want modders to add it though? No! Because doing that would turn a fully functional, albeit slightly janky looking mod into a nightmare of failed scenes that would break the game and force me to reload saves constantly.

 

People can barely get this game to run scenes under ideal and known circumstances, there's no way this is going to work on the fly in various unknown terrain and conditions (and indeed, it never has when attempted). The engine cannae do it Cap'n! She dun have the power!

 

That's the story in a nutshell, and ontop of this you have to add that Skyrim is a buggy 32-Bit app that relies on a terrible script engine, this presents some very real limitations that will forever prevent mod authors from going nuts with their Skyrim mods. Lest ofcourse, they only want their mod to work for the top 10% of players with amazing rigs, and accept that it can't be run alongside other big and ambitious mods without crashing the game.

 

 

Again, things are the way they are for a reason. We're trying to build a working raft out of drift timbers here, so quite frankly, someone comming along and asking "but why not build a luxury Yacht instead?" is not helpful critique, it's just hopelessly unrealistic..

[GrimReaper]

Things like touching require precision or else they tend to look really bad. HDT physics is kinda wonky, but considering that there wasn't really any physics based collision in the game to begin with, it's a major achievement. Still, even if HDT was very precise, you'd still have the problem that there are a plethora of different body replacers available, with Bodyslide there are virtually infinite shapes you can have in your game. But even the different scale of the actors would be a major problem - with all that taken into consideration, it's somewhat impossible to make more intricate animations. In your game the guy could pinch nipples, but for another user the guy might pinch into air or his hand could be inside the boobs, which would cause HDT to spaz out.

 

The only games that have these kind of interactions are sex games which were designed with sex and only that in mind. If you want touching or interaction betweem two bodies, consider playing one of Illusion's H-Games.

[Silver-Dillo]

GregorSamsa one simple word of advice if you will, if you don't like the mod don't play it or go into the page it's on and dump on it due to you not liking it that's rude and disrespectful, also you maybe a critic but before you put pen to paper and write your review at least play the mod then write a sensible critique on it.

[GregorSamsa]

I think people need to calm down attacking the OP here. I think the points they brought up are really valid and touch on some of the frustration I've felt with adult modding in Skyrim as well. It's interesting how nobody is adressing their points, but instead are saying either "you can't make it yourself so you can't talk!" or "the modders have already given us amazing things! quit complaining and enjoy what you have!"

 

I dislike it whenever people have the mentality of "if you can't do it better yourself, quit complaining!" The reality is that critiques and opinions are valuable and can often push a discussion forward or make something better. My contribution to the Skyrim adult community was created due to people's frustration with the lack of creature sex in the game. I'm sure many modders can say the same type of thing motivated their modding; that they wanted to see a void filled in the game that was previously unfilled. I wasn't particularly jumping at the opportunity to spend dozens (maybe hundreds?) of hours making animations, and I definately wouldn't have done it if people didn't voice their opinions that they wanted it. At the time, FNIS had creature support so the ability to have sex mods with creatures was there, but nobody was making anything. People were frustrated, and although I had no experience modding any Bethesda game, I decided to give it a try to fill that void that was clearly lacking. I actually remember people back then told people who wanted these mods "quit complaining, we'll get these mods when we get them", but in reality I probably wouldn't have made the mod if the complainers followed their advice.

 

Of course, the modder's personal motivation with the project has a large part to do with them actually making it, but the community has at least some part to play in the modder's motivation to complete and release a mod, otherwise they would just keep it to themselves. For me, filling that void in the community was my primary motivation, as I couldn't even see my animations in-game throughout the entirety of the development of the mod, so there was no personal payoff for me.

 

So TLDR, don't berate people for complaining, being frustrated and critiquing, as all of these are valuable for modders (both current and potential) to know what people want. As long as you aren't attacking any person or any mod specifically, I don't see the issue. The way the OP presented his post was very respectful to the modders, so I don't see why there is such a huge backlash.

 

----

 

Anyway, I'd like to try to move this discussion toward adressing the OP's points specifically, as I've been thinking similar things for a little bit. It's hard to deny that right now the sexual aspect to Skyrim with these mods and the original game of Skyrim are very loosely connected. Basically, you are either playing the game, or you triggered something that made sex happen, and usually this thing is pretty arbitrary like a dialog option or a spell. I'd say the best scenario you have right now with seamless integration between gameplay and sex are mods like Defeat, where if someone loses in combat against an opponent the opponent has sex with the defeated person. But even then, the transition is pretty awkward. First, you start out fighting with someone and have full control. Then, if you are the one defated in combat, you enter a staggered stage and control is taken away from you. Then, after a few seconds of standing there, you are both naked and sex is happening.

 

I'm not knocking Defeat by any means, I think it's perfect as a mod on its own. But that's the problem, most of these mods are made in isolation and focus on one thing without really communicating with one another. This is a big problem in my mod as well. An animator would have to make a transitional animation between the gameplay and sex for Defeat. But who's going to make a bunch of animations that might never be used? I actually spent a bit of time experimenting with the idea of transitional animations about a year ago, but the process was demotivating, because I didn't know when or if my work would ever make it into a mod.

 

For the future of adult mods I'd like to see more collaborations between multiple modders to help bridge these gaps more easily. The best thing you have right now for collaborations are mod dependancies, IE most mods rely on Sexlab so every mod doesn't need to program sex with npcs. It would be nice to see collaboration within individual mods and some bigger mods be attempted to brige the gap between gameplay and sexual interaction. In an ideal world, I think it would be awesome if there were huge mods that focused on specific play styles, like a mod that changes the game to fits a submissive female character, for example (you could imagine other playstyles). Of course, this is more easily said then done, because ultimately it is easier just to do something yourself. Also, to make this work really well, you'd have to have many disciplines working together, including scripting, game design, animation, modeling, writing, sound design and (most difficult) voice acting. Once agin, trying to find people good at all these disciplines is difficult, let alone getting them to work together on something. Figuring out an infrastructure that allows that collaboration to happen more easily should be something we modders should think about, since I think it will only make the mods better.

 

Maybe with Fallout 4 being the new hotness, people will attempt more ambitious mods for that. I would like to see this attempted for Skyrim, but I have a feeling it will get at lot less attention when F4 comes out, so it might not be worth investing the effort at this point. You never know, but I think this would be a good direction for adult modding that I'd really like to see.

 

Sorry if I'm late but I wanted to thank you for taking the time to answering the way you did.

 

A funny thing: someone did recently, what I tried to explain. I didn't test it jet, so I can't say much about it - but it could be perhaps some kind of a framework - if it wasn't driven by keyboard but by 'storytelling' or a GUI similar to UIExtensions.

 

And another funny thing: Slap.

 

All this happend since I wrote my letter. You modders are simply fantastic.

 

Many people complained I did debase all the hard work. Don't know. To give only compliments to the existing doesn't help much to advance.

 

In my opionion games are made for people to have fun. Like ice cream or toys. So modding - if it isn't for money - should be fun the very same way. Someone who takes a challenge knows - it's not always fun but if you succeed, it feels good.

 

Therefore no one should be forced to mod. Thats the obvious. But that's a different kettle of fish.

 

 

To critisize doesn't mean to be ungrateful. Ungrateful is to show no interrest to ignore the work of others. Critics - good or bad - is the product of interest.

 

Criticis seems only to be ignorant, but they are more like football fans, like supporters. They can be a nag demanding the impossible, the glorious from their team - to produce goals like it was the easiest thing of all. This has nothing to do with 'having an opinion'. More with: 'having a passion for ...'

 

And shure, critics - in this sense - never are fair. Like all enthusiasts. To be fair - thats the job of judges. Critics are always false judges - they are judges by heart - and therefore never balanced. If critics were judges - all prisons were crowded.

 

What is the difference between a judge and a critics? The judges works for justice, the critic works for an audience.

 

The critc fakes the judge - he doesn't take his job that seriously that he thinks he can condemn mods for real - who takes all this judging everyday (about politics and football players etc.) serious and thinks so selfish his words could have this effect - an 'arbitrator effect'?

 

When did ever had words such an almightiness over you?

 

That may be mom and dad: 'Don't you ever visit this 'Sexlab-site'. And what happend? Look, I'm here. The same: 'don't you ever critisize the modders' That's authority. It isn't convincing it is simple putting pressure on someone. Is this critics?

 

Obvously - when I put my judgement online and would think, with my words I put those mods in jail, I would be a vain idiot. Even the thought is absurd. So what does the critic really do if he doesn't judge for justice? He wants to get an audience. He writes a piece that brings things to attention, to heating up others so they make their mind up, they want to be part of the discourse, to show their opinion. That's his job - to start a discourse. And thats all. He is always a 'fake judge' - a judge without a real prison.

 

 

 

Games are all about having fun. So that's the main question, always: what is the thrill of it, how much fun is it? That's what critics talk about, when they talk about games.

 

And that's what I tried to do.

 

I think this way it was possible to see a major problem - the same why many mods get half developed and then abbandoned.

 

Maybe site administrators should think about how they can support teamwork better between modders - invent some 'modders room', encourage them to work on collective projects. Don't know. Again - it's not me to judge. I'm shure many others - just to show some authority - they will.

 

 

 

Again, thank you for reading.

[jessegt]

 

I repeat. Doing a mod is an art and a passion.

For a mod you need:

• Ideas
• Logic
• Stories
• Coding
• Meshes & Textures
• Layouting
• Animations
• Putting all together
• Going beyond the limits sometimes

You can contribute in any way you want.

Pure criticism is not really appreciated. Modders do their job for passion, without any obligation and compensation.

 

Some of them are open to advises, propositions, and maybe critics.

Some of them are not. And you cannot blame them. The is NOT acceptable. You can simply ignore their mods.

Sorry, can't buy that. I agree, that modding is work and passion (exactly that makes me afraid of it - not that bit of knwoledge about software, nodes and verticles).

 

 

And I think I expressed my thankfullness for their work clearly in my letter. Maybe I should repeat my own words? Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

 

But this: 'pure criticism' – you adress it to me? Why? I wrote this letter for your amusement. I stated that clearly. It took me 3 hours to write it. And there is lovely weather outside. This was work too.

 

You may laugh but I regard my letter also as a work of art.

 

And I would appreciate if it gets at least the respect to be read before it is commented - even if you don't like my thoughts.

 

The same as with the mods ...

 

... or different?

 

I am a user so I am less worthy than a modder?

 

Is that your point? Or did I get that wrong?

everybody is subjected to constructive criticism.

[D_ManXX2]

you should not compare animation with mods these 2 are two completely different things. if only you showed some skill into what animations are maybe then you would be in better way of critizing what has been done here. daz is no blender / 3dmax.