Binding

[Lazy Palm]

54 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

This mod shouldn't remove items equipped by Sluts. That includes gag and boots. If they are changed the delivery will fail because driver thinks i've lost the items. They are also really hard to re-equip with console commands.

 

This mod currently is probably not going to play well with mods that require items to stay equipped.  At least until I get a chance to work on the equip/unequip stuff more.  It leaves alone items that are blocking / quest flagged.  I will keep working on that.  Sorry for the trouble!

 

54 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

On second note, i then changed MCM so that mod doesn't remove gag for dialogs. But rule change triggered and she still removed the Sluts bridle.

 

I will check this out.

 

54 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

Lastly i can't pause the mod events.

 

Can't pause them, but you can terminate them with the safeword.  But that might mess with equipped gear from other mods.

 

54 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

I tried to change the rule change's chance to 0% but it still triggered.

 

Rebuilding the rule set stuff now. I will try make sure 0% actually works.

 

Thanks for letting me know about this stuff!

Edited November 2, 2024 by Lazy Palm

[Anunya]

1 hour ago, audhol said:

If you think of it only as a tool to speed up the process I don't see why modders wouldn't use it. The comments in the screengrab of @Lenore make perfect sense and fit both the theme of the mod and the environment.

 

If @Lazy Palm had asked us for input we would all have disagreed and had different ideas about what tone the comments should have. Chat GPT is simply  a database of knowledge that can be interactively accessed. I have used it to write scripts for me as its something I have no knowledge of and it allows more time to do the things that I do know how to do.

 

I do understand where your relunctance comes from as it can be percieved as a giant sticky plaster that can do everything without the need for human input but thats simply not true.

 

@Lenore took the time to think about the right question to ask and the chatbot gave the output. Its exactly the same as if they had researched sentance structure related to attitude but it was done in 30 seconds rather than a number of hours.

 

The place of AI in creative endeavours is a pretty big topic, and one that I'm pretty close to professionally. Your points are all perfectly legitimate.

 

1 hour ago, audhol said:

I'm not trying to be negative to your viewpoint but makng a mod is very time consuming, and also I get the impression that @Lazy Palm is trying to please everyone by including all suggestions so anything that can be used to facilitate the process should be welcomed.

 

It's obviously up to @Lazy Palm to decide how to go about this. I'm making no demands . I'm merely stating my preference, which is to be able to avoid LLM AI generated creative content as much as possible (I have no opinion on AI assistants for coding - and I recognize that coding is also a creative endeavour).

 

Three things:

1. I spend a bit of time offering to write lines for various mods and have helped out in dribs and drabs with a number of mods over the years. I have provided @Lazy Palm with a bunch of lines already (and I intend to provide more, assuming he can use them). It takes time and effort on my part, but I enjoy it both for the process itself and as a way to contribute to the community. I like to think that what I write is better than ChatGPT generated content, but that is obviously subjective. Whether that's the case or not, it's a bit disheartening to see something I enjoy doing and think I'm good at getting replaced by 30 second LLM processes (which is not to minimize the skill or time that goes into prompt engineering). It's great that it makes things easier for LP and allows Lenore and others to contribute cool things - but it also kind of stomps on something I cherish. If LLM driven dialogue becomes the norm, then there's not much point for me to continue trying to contribute. That, of course, is no-one's problem but my own, and it definitely doesn't obligate anyone to stop doing the things they enjoy. But I hope it at least illustrates why I personally prefer to avoid LLM driven content.
2. As a matter of preference - in line with all the other preferences that we have in this kink-driven community that drives our input and the choice of mods we play with - I prefer things that are written by people in a way that expresses some individual personality. Personal preferences differ, obviously but I find most LLM generated content bland and samey and uninteresting.
3. There are a few other areas that I care about that has been overrun by LLM generated schlock in a way I consider detrimental. Try to search for character concept art (I mostly look at fantasy things), and original content is mostly drowned out by massive amounts of samey (and often janky) AI generated junk to the point that it's practically impossible to find anything new or interesting. Similarly, so much written/ social media content is now positively drowning in AI generated text that the usefulness and personal connections have mostly evaporated. So I enjoy the parts of the internet where I don't have to wade through things like that.

Again, I'm not here to harsh on anyone's mellow. Efficiency gains and improved workflows are great. Unlocking the creativity of folks who are more comfortable writing prompts than writing dialogue is also great.

 

Also... Lenora's actual idea - of having different personalities make different types of comments - is really good. And in spite of everything I just wrote above, using LLM to generate illustrative examples is perfectly legit, even in my world. I'd just like to be able to opt out (without giving up on the mod) of ChatGPT generated content if it becomes a substantial contributor to the mod.

 

I guess - having thought about this as I've written this post - all I'm really asking is that if the mod is going to contain a bunch of LLM generated dialogue (which is not a given at this point), that it's implemented in a way that it's relatively easy for someone to either turn it off or alternately rewrite it (like editing .jsons for YPS Thoughts, Apropos2, or parts of SubLola).

 

That's a lot more writing than I intended when I started, over something I guess boils down to a request for some customizability for the writing  

[Anunya]

2 hours ago, Lenore said:

I mean personally, I wouldn't use it for main storyline stuff but for fill-in, not that important to the story .. comments, I just don't see a problem. I was honestly just trying to offer help/suggestions .. use it or don't, I still adore the mod ❤️.  And yeah, as @audhol stated, it just allows more time for other more involved stuff.  Also, it's not like anyone would even know if it was used or not, unless the modder went through and added spelling errors, lol.

 

Completely legit

 

I didn't mean to go off on you. If you read my small essay above it kind of reveals I have feelings on the topic.

[Lenore]

1 hour ago, Anunya said:

I didn't mean to go off on you. If you read my small essay above it kind of reveals I have feelings on the topic.

 

No worries at all, perfectly valid points

[Cieris]

This might be outside of the scope of the mod, but there are some odd interactions with other DD mods that can remove generic restraints, like Laura's shop for example.

 

When restraints are removed by other mods, Binding seems to 'forget' about what was there and don't attempt to replace it.

 

I'm wondering if there could be a check added to ensure required restraints are re-equipped, either as part of regular dialogue or as part of the 'tie me' option?

[audhol]

8 hours ago, Anunya said:

but it also kind of stomps on something I cherish. If LLM driven dialogue becomes the norm, then there's not much point for me to continue trying to contribute.

I do see the sense in everything you wrote but that sentance kinda sums it up. I understand completely what you are saying, I feel the same about people spining DAZ assets.

I get that its far less work and provides content but it seems to go against the creative process of creating something with your own hands (mouse, keyboard, whatever)

 

I know you have had your hand in lots of mods and added to them freeing up time for the respective modders to work on other things.

 

Maybe you should make an AnunyaGPT where you are on call 24/7 to provide colourfull text output. (Just to be clear thats meant as a joke)

 

Sorry for hijacking your support thread @Lazy Palm I do follow what you are doing and if you ever need any custom models or textures just ask.

[Lazy Palm]

6 hours ago, Cieris said:

This might be outside of the scope of the mod, but there are some odd interactions with other DD mods that can remove generic restraints, like Laura's shop for example.

 

When restraints are removed by other mods, Binding seems to 'forget' about what was there and don't attempt to replace it.

 

I'm wondering if there could be a check added to ensure required restraints are re-equipped, either as part of regular dialogue or as part of the 'tie me' option?

 

Sure!  This should actually be no problem at all. Binding stores all the items in variables in a script and can happily re-equip.  There is already a function for rule changes that does most of this task.  I will get something working! 

 

I do most of my testing without other higher level bondage type mods (other than the basic frameworks DD, ZAP, SexLab, SLA).  I feel like I see problems I am creating more clearly that way.  The downside is the interactions with other mods.  I seem to be missing quite a few. I need to do more extensive testing on my other computer, but it always cuts into my building time 😀 

 

Thanks for letting me know!!  I do appreciate the QA/testing feedback!!

[Lazy Palm]

5 hours ago, audhol said:

Sorry for hijacking your support thread @Lazy Palm 

 

Don't even sweat it for a second!

 

It is a fascinating conversation, and kind of testament to the LL crowd that everybody can have a debate about such a heated issue in such a civil and productive way.  It is a rare thing these days...

 

5 hours ago, audhol said:

I do follow what you are doing and if you ever need any custom models or textures just ask.

 

I am likely to take you up on this offer 🤣

Edited November 3, 2024 by Lazy Palm

[Lazy Palm]

17 hours ago, lovalter said:

How would I go about adding more devices to the selection? (like leather versions for example)

 

I will get some leather stuff added this next release.  I keep forgetting to do that!

 

I have a learn and store equipped items the items on the to-do list for a long time.  I need to look at that again.

 

Also, I have been meaning to get some of the lists of items I have in scripts over to JSON or XML files so it would be easier to edit.

[Lazy Palm]

I have a general question for the crowd.  It seems like mods equipping DD (and ZAP) and requiring them to stay equipped (without protecting them) is going to be a fairly frequent problem and I have been brainstorming. 

 

I am in the process of some slot checks to make sure that I am not either A) removing (non-binding) and equipping new items or B) removing items that binding does not have storage information about (it does know what it has equipped).

 

This let me to consider that maybe, as an option perhaps, when the mod encounters an existing item that binding did not equip, you could be prompted with a dialog box that lets you choose to Remove and Equip the new item or Leave the other item in place.  This would be for stuff that is not marked blocking or quest.

 

Would anybody use this?

 

Also, I was planning on tightening up the Safeword routine to look for binding only items.  Right now it walks the slots and clears generic items, so it can get non biding items also. 

 

I wanted to ask if anybody uses this as a rescue from items that binding might not have equipped?  I would be reducing functionality a bit, even if it is a for a good cause.

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by Lazy Palm

[Tetras66]

42 minutes ago, Lazy Palm said:

Would anybody use this?

Hmm. It sounds like it could be a bit annoying/immersion breaking? Unless it is a one time only thing when it first encounters the item?

[lovalter]

1 hour ago, Lazy Palm said:

Also, I have been meaning to get some of the lists of items I have in scripts over to JSON or XML files so it would be easier to edit.

That would be very very handy 

[Lazy Palm]

4 minutes ago, Tetras66 said:

Hmm. It sounds like it could be a bit annoying/immersion breaking? Unless it is a one time only thing when it first encounters the item?

 

I would 100% gate it behind an MCM option, the default behavior would be just to leave what is there in place.  But that is good to know that there is one vote for Nay! 🤣

 

I think I would be afraid to store the answer from first encounter.  If somebody chooses the wrong option, then they are stuck with it unless there is some other complex mechanism to forget the selection.  Not saying that is not doable, but probably a bit more work than I was hoping to engage in right away.

Edited November 3, 2024 by Lazy Palm

[Lazy Palm]

1 minute ago, lovalter said:

That would be very very handy 

 

I know DD NG is adding stuff also.  Would probably be good to be able to have a patch that updates the JSON file for people that are running it.

[Tetras66]

13 minutes ago, Lazy Palm said:

I would 100% gate it behind an MCM option, the default behavior would be just to leave what is there in place.  But that is good to know that there is one vote for Nay! 🤣

😂 It is not that I don't appreciate the feature, I was just thinking like..., say you have 3 non-binding items and the mod tries to unequip for an event and you get three popups: "would you like to remove x?" and you press each one and then shortly after another event and another three popups. You know what I mean? That'd be annoying.

 

15 minutes ago, Lazy Palm said:

I think I would be afraid to store the answer from first encounter.  If somebody chooses the wrong option, then they are stuck with it unless there is some other complex mechanism to forget the selection.  Not saying that is not doable, but probably a bit more work than I was hoping to engage in right away.

I guess what I was thinking about is:

- Does binding consider that when you first present yourself to the mod, that this is a one-time only event and it can deal with what you have equipped then and only then.

OR

- Does binding consider that you could have unexpected items equipped at any time, and as such, the mod has to constantly be on alert?

[Lazy Palm]

4 minutes ago, Tetras66 said:

Does binding consider that you could have unexpected items equipped at any time, and as such, the mod has to constantly be on alert?

 

I don't how others have been using it, but I kind of play it always on.  So, I think it needs to be always on the lookout for unknown devices, at least at points where it tries to equip or manage gear.  I know it is going to be a big undertaking to make that a seamless and robust process.

 

8 minutes ago, Tetras66 said:

😂 It is not that I don't appreciate the feature, I was just thinking like..., say you have 3 non-binding items and the mod tries to unequip for an event and you get three popups: "would you like to remove x?" and you press each one and then shortly after another event and another three popups. You know what I mean? That'd be annoying.

 

Yeah, shit... This is why I throw out these questions 😀

 

I guess I need to do it the way you suggested and have a mechanism to forget the choice when needed.  I can just make it a global forget.  I had it in my head it would be a random item, but you are right, could be layers of stuff.  That would very annoying if you get with challenged dialogs over and over and binding tries to do things.

[Tetras66]

2 minutes ago, Lazy Palm said:

Yeah, shit... This is why I throw out these questions 😀

😀

 

3 minutes ago, Lazy Palm said:

I guess I need to do it the way you suggested and have a mechanism to forget the choice when needed.  I can just make it a global forget.  I had it in my head it would be a random item, but you are right, could be layers of stuff.  That would very annoying if you get with challenged dialogs over and over and binding tries to do things.

I'd imagine the simplest solution is to put something like... "Force equip" and "Force unequip" toggles in the MCM and if the Force is ticked it will try it (if they're not quest items). If you wanted to go crazy, it could be one toggle per slot. I know that's not particularly elegant or immersive, but in my mod I'll be honest that I hate dealing with these things and don't want to waste a lot of my time on it.

[Lazy Palm]

2 minutes ago, Tetras66 said:

😀

 

I'd imagine the simplest solution is to put something like... "Force equip" and "Force unequip" toggles in the MCM and if the Force is ticked it will try it (if they're not quest items). If you wanted to go crazy, it could be one toggle per slot. I know that's not particularly elegant or immersive, but in my mod I'll be honest that I hate dealing with these things and don't want to waste a lot of my time on it.

I guess I am thinking of say cursed loot where I would probably pull things off without exception vs SLUTs which looks like it might not protect items and ding you for removing them.

[Tetras66]

3 minutes ago, Lazy Palm said:

I guess I am thinking of say cursed loot where I would probably pull things off without exception vs SLUTs which looks like it might not protect items and ding you for removing them.

That's why I favour a simple toggle (default with: don't force), because the mod supports any option and the player has to be aware of what they're wearing (and the potential consequences) if they tick the force 😄

 

I have some scenes and dialogues that are skipped for free slots versus occupied slots, but it gets a nightmare real fast to try and account for everything.

[Lazy Palm]

2 hours ago, Tetras66 said:

That's why I favour a simple toggle (default with: don't force), because the mod supports any option and the player has to be aware of what they're wearing (and the potential consequences) if they tick the force 😄

 

I have some scenes and dialogues that are skipped for free slots versus occupied slots, but it gets a nightmare real fast to try and account for everything.

 

I like the toggle per slot idea, though I am still struggling with only having that binary option (at least for myself).  Maybe I could a drop down for each that has 3 options: No (leave item alone), Yes (remove non quest items), Ask.  And default them all to No. 

 

Thanks for the ideas!

[Anunya]

On devices - if I'm understanding the question correctly - the question is what to do with Devious Devices that are equipped outside of Binding events either 1) in slots that Binding want to equip something in; or 2) in slots that Binding is not interested in?

 

If so, I think the way DF and SubLola (I think) deals with it is probably the easiest - the check if something is equipped in the slot and if it is, the condition is fulfilled. If it's not, they equip one or punish the PC for not having it equipped as appropriate for the context of the check. They don't care if it's the specific device or something else. I think that's nice and clean, and it allows the player to swap out devices manually if they prefer.

 

If it is a big deal to someone, perhaps you could have an MCM setting that lets Binding devices replace non-Binding devices, or vice versa? Personally, though, I don't think I'd use it - fixing it manually or accepting what was equipped is fine for me.

[Tetras66]

2 hours ago, Lazy Palm said:

drop down for each that has 3 options: No (leave item alone), Yes (remove non quest items), Ask.  And default them all to No. 

Sounds good! You could choose to develop that option that remembers them in the future, but the first version wouldn't require it, so should be nice and simple?

[DonQuiWho]

2 hours ago, Lazy Palm said:

 

I like the toggle per slot idea, though I am still struggling with only having that binary option (at least for myself).  Maybe I could a drop down for each that has 3 options: No (leave item alone), Yes (remove non quest items), Ask.  And default them all to No. 

 

Thanks for the ideas!

 

Apologies for this having developed into 'a wall of words'   Wasn't my intention when I started.  Hopefully you can get something constructive out of it and it manages to arrive there conveying the good intent with which it left here 😆

 

+++++++++++++++++

 

Can I add a few points please?

 

Suppose you are running

 

1 Bane Master's Defeat with AndrewLRG's Addon set to be active in Post Defeat Outcomes

2 DD 5.2

3 DCL (Kimy's Cursed Loot)

4 DEC (Bane Master's Deviously Enchanted Chests)

5 DDH (Devious Device Helpers)

6 Binding

 

Looking at some possible events that can arise

 

a - A Defeat event in '1' can, if using the Add-on settings to add restraints, add locked Restraints from '2', and/or '3' to both players and followers

 

b - DCL events from '3' can simultaneously be set to add 'locked' restraints from '3' on 'opening' cursed chests, bodies etc, as well adding 'locked' restraints on the outcome of its built in 'rape' event, in both cases adding them to player and followers

 

c - DEC ie '4' can add locked DD's from '2' to player and followers

 

d - DDH allows followers to assist the player to remove devices locked on to them by the above events, where the player and/or follower have DD keys that match the relevant device ed Basic (Restraint Key), Chastity Device Keys, Piercing Device Keys, and also, in DCL at least,  some specialist Head, Body, etc Device keys

 

And in setting out those scenarios, I've not tried to include any of the other mods which believe that the player being restrained to the general benefit of the rest of the Skyrim population can be anything other than 'a good thing'

 

The In-game management of all that is/can be fun, whilst it can be extremely challenging and often risky to manage key creation/acquisition/finding

 

BUT you don't normally also have curve balls arrive where restraints just suddenly get torn off by some clueless follower who, when they rub their 2 neurons together, thinks that 'all of your restraints belong to me'

 

To be fair, I've only tried 'Binding' within towns so far and while it is fun, and has potential, I've been loath to try it out in the main part of my game.   Even if the Binding DOM's  activities are kept within town walls/boundaries, it could be really irritating to find in, say, a scenario where you and your party have been done up like kippers, you've had to work hard to find your way back to a town to see a blacksmith to rescue yourself and your party, and in getting there, the DOM follower suddenly whips them all off and says 'see, that was easy, but I'll be a thoroughgoing brat and add something else instead'  Even worse still would be their removal of a quest item. 

 

The first thing I would be tempted to do would be to defriend them, use Diary of Mine to enslave them, have them trained by my local troll henchperson and set them to walk the streets with their bottom stuffed with a plug from which is hanging a bell to attract the locals

 

Switching the mod 'OFF' in towns might solve that problem, but then you have to ask 'why do I have this'? if I have it switched off almost everywhere?

 

More seriously, I really do like the mod, the way the rules are constructed, the way you have continually added a degree of randomness to events.  On its own, great!  And super for a real submissive to use to wander round skyrim. 

 

But I struggle to see how it might mesh well with other parts of modded games.   The potential pitfalls you face on broader use become apparent if you try and extend it to scenarios involving other mods or game events which might clash.  

 

Just yesterday, I had been wondering how I might extend my use of this in my current game and, TBH, I struggled. 

 

I also tried to think through scenarios, which it might be possible for you to develop.  For instance, perhaps the player was having a punch up with some bad guys, and was 'defeated'. Could the 'victor' be co-opted into the follower faction, and added to the party, becoming the DOM follower?  But I couldn't see how that wouldn't still fall foul of other events that add restraints, unless you are prepared to play with some precocious minx, who would be just capricious nuisance - which might be fun! - but who could break quests and other parts of gameplay at will 😏

 

That's my take on the conundrum you face regarding management of devices for gameplay purposes

 

 

Trying to be constructive, as far as getting round the problems is concerned: 

 

a - I doubt if trying to 'exercise control' on what gets added and removed by 'which other' mods is really feasible, or worth the candle.  So ...

 

b - If your mod controlled the players restraints.....

 

• 1  by, when all possible restraint slots are vacant, on a Rule implementation, filling them with a mix of both visible functioning restraints and non visible, non functioning, 'dummy restraints' added as if irremovable quest items which cannot be overwritten/added to by other mods - effectively precluding them from starting quests/adding restraints at the time they trigger
•  
• 2  by changing the mix of functioning and dummy items appropriately when the DOM follower adds a Rule Change
•  
• 3  by NOT activating any rule, and consequently NOT adding any 'Binding' restraints, when the Dom Follower might wish to trigger/activate a rule, when any one of all the possible restraint slots is already occupied by some other mod's restraints
•  
• EDIT 4 by removing all 'Binding' Restraints. visible and real, and invisible dummies, when there are no Rules actively adding any restraints

 

 

......that would at least ensure that the player is not placed in a 'battle of the mods', ie 'yours' vs 'the rest'

 

 

Alternatively, if that's not possible/doesn't appeal, maybe some refocussing on the type of play and player your mod is aimed at would be time well spent rather than banging your head on the desk trying to square a circle 😄

 

DQW

 

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by DonQuiWho

[Lazy Palm]

35 minutes ago, DonQuiWho said:

Apologies for this having developed into 'a wall of words'   Wasn't my intention when I started.  Hopefully you can get something constructive out of it and it manages to arrive there conveying the good intent with which it left here 😆

 

Don't even worry about it.  I love a wall of text.  You bring up a lot of good points, but I did not provide enough detail to start with.

 

So my plan (and it is actually already working in a dev build) is to basically do what @Anunya suggested a few posts back.  Which I guess DF and SLTR already do, which is good to hear.

 

1) binding turns on a rule, say Always Gagged

2) it looks for a gag, and equips one if not found.  If one is there, by default, it leaves it be and considers this mission accomplished.

3) it will at some interval look at rules and how stuff is equipped, if it finds Always Gagged and the slot is empty at that point, it will add one.  This should cover escapes, other mods removing, etc.

4) when the rule ends, it will pull it off ONLY if binding equipped it, otherwise it leaves it be.

 

Binding will never get grumpy from another mod removing something though, it will just move on.  I might figure out some kind of player escape feedback.

 

My question was more at that leave it alone point, I figured some people might like the flexibly choosing if the mod respects those other mods equips or wants to override it.

 

Sorry I should have lead with this 🤣

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by Lazy Palm

[Lazy Palm]

1 hour ago, Anunya said:

the check if something is equipped in the slot and if it is, the condition is fulfilled

This is the way 😀

 

1 hour ago, Anunya said:

I think that's nice and clean, and it allows the player to swap out devices manually if they prefer.

I think I have it mostly working but the only drawback to swapping it out yourself is that it will not try to remove it when the rule ends.  Unless I come up with a way to mark something manually added and store it.