An RPG in 2023 with a mute protagonist???

[bjornk]

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

We have. We've also had shades of meaning and specialized usage of words in particular contexts.

Which would also be included in the dictionary, if that's a thing.

 

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

And once again, I'd strongly disagree. If I immerse myself in a role, I expect the same degree of immersion that I'd get from reading a good book or watching a good film. Staying dissociated from that role completely defeats that objective.

 

A book you read, or a film you watch wouldn't give you a role that you can immerse yourself in or disassociate from. You'd be passively identifying with someone else's stories. If that is the degree of immersion you expect from a game, then you'd certainly get it without needing to associate yourself with a role.

 

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

Forgetting nothing. I've been trying to get through to you that these levels do exist (something you've only just now acknowledged),

Literally wrote this in the very same message you quoted:
 

On 7/27/2023 at 12:26 AM, bjornk said:

neither immersion or disassociation is absolute and there may be different levels to them

 

 

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

and at the deeper level of immersion there is indeed a conflict between immersion and dissociation

 

In the context of associating yourself with a role, it's completely your own personal view, which doesn't apply to me and I don't accept it as a universal fact in the way you claim. In any other context, I'd need to be given whatever it is first, in order to tell if there's a conflict or not, otherwise arguing about it is pointless.

 

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

If you weren't so determined to turn this into a fight, you'd see that I've been trying to find some common ground between our two, very different ways of playing the game.

The common ground was to accept the fact that people may have different tastes, views, opinions on things, which I've tried to remind you a couple of times which you've adamantly ignored, which you could've chosen not to.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by bjornk

[DocClox]

17 minutes ago, bjornk said:

The common ground was to accept the fact that people may have different tastes, views, opinions on things, which I've tried to remind you a couple of times which you've adamantly ignored, which you could've chosen not to.

 

 

 

This all started out because we were talking at cross purposes about what we consider "immersion" in the context of gaming. Now we've established that and gained an understanding of the other persons perspective. Yet still you insist on turning this into a fight, even if you have to keep changing your story every other post to maintain the hostility.

 

Well, I've got better things to do than listen to you chant "I know you are but what am I?"

 

See you in the funny pages, chuckles.

 

[bjornk]

3 minutes ago, DocClox said:

This all started out because we were talking at cross purposes about what we consider "immersion" in the context of gaming. 

This all started because you refused to accept a simple disagreement.

 

10 minutes ago, DocClox said:

Yet still you insist on turning this into a fight, even if you have to keep changing your story every other post to maintain the hostility.

 

It certainly wasn't me who turned the "story" from dissociating from the player character in a role-playing game into dissociating from a Kubrick film and buying pop corns in a theater.

 

20 minutes ago, DocClox said:

Well, I've got better things to do than listen to you chant "I know you are but what am I?"

 

No, you don't.

 

37 minutes ago, DocClox said:

See you in the funny pages, chuckles.

Not sure if that's the kind of response one would expect from someone who complains about "hostility". Who knows, perhaps there's a reason why you attract it.

 

[Miauzi]

Complete "immersion" in a computer game is currently not possible from a technical point of view.

It is true that VA glasses lead one "step" deeper into this "immersion" than a simple screen - but the 3rd-person perspective has ultimately arisen from several shortcomings of the "engine" of all previous computer games -> in the 1st-person perspective one has considerable limitations in orientation ... compared to one's OCCASIONAL possibilities in the real world.

The question "does this outfit suit me at all" can NOT be answered without a functioning mirror and without the 3rd person view.

The fact that in some games you can't switch from "1st" to "3rd" ... I therefore find it very disturbing.

But in the end you are still miles away from a real "immersion" from a technical point of view ... for this it will be necessary to bypass all sensory organs and to stimulate the brain regions directly.

More than 50 years ago, the Polish SFi author "Stanislaw Lem" already dealt with the possibilities but also the problems of such a "deep dive" system in his "summa technologiae".

(https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_technologiae)

 

How this can work with a computer game ... see the manga/anime series SAO (Sword-Art-Online).

(and we are still decades away from such a technology)

my conclusion -> complete or "deep" immersion is not technically possible at the moment ... so there is only PARTIAL immersion.

[bjornk]

1 hour ago, Veniat said:

As someone who's been dissociated both medically, and from being incredibly picky when reading fanfiction or playing games, I can't agree with this more.  Being dissociated is being immersed in the self, or being disconnected from what you're immersed in; I mean being dissociated literally means to be disconnected or detached from something, you can't be immersed in something, whilst simultaneously being detached from that same thing. 

They're completely antithetical to one another. 

Translation: "If I dissociate myself from the Orcs, I wouldn't be able to immerse myself in the Lord of the Rings".

 

[bjornk]

20 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

Complete "immersion" in a computer game is currently not possible from a technical point of view.

It is true that VA glasses lead one "step" deeper into this "immersion" than a simple screen - but the 3rd-person perspective has ultimately arisen from several shortcomings of the "engine" of all previous computer games -> in the 1st-person perspective one has considerable limitations in orientation ... compared to one's OCCASIONAL possibilities in the real world.

The question "does this outfit suit me at all" can NOT be answered without a functioning mirror and without the 3rd person view.

The fact that in some games you can't switch from "1st" to "3rd" ... I therefore find it very disturbing.

But in the end you are still miles away from a real "immersion" from a technical point of view ... for this it will be necessary to bypass all sensory organs and to stimulate the brain regions directly.

More than 50 years ago, the Polish SFi author "Stanislaw Lem" already dealt with the possibilities but also the problems of such a "deep dive" system in his "summa technologiae".

(https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_technologiae)

 

How this can work with a computer game ... see the manga/anime series SAO (Sword-Art-Online).

(and we are still decades away from such a technology)

my conclusion -> complete or "deep" immersion is not technically possible at the moment ... so there is only PARTIAL immersion.

 

Star Trek's Holodeck could be the ultimate immersion environment, but would you really want that in a game? I wouldn't. Would it be enough to view the game world from the 1st person perspective? Even with a VR headset? What will happen to my voice for instance? Will it also change my voice or will I still talk to NPCs using my own voice? Even today, it's possible to use AI systems like ChatGPT and ElevenLabs to talk to NPCs using your own voice and I wouldn't want that. It would be quite immersion breaking if you want to play as a character of a different race or of the opposite gender.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by bjornk

[Veniat]

22 minutes ago, bjornk said:

Translation: "If I dissociate myself from the Orcs, I wouldn't be able to immerse myself in the Lord of the Rings".

 

Huh, no, mostly, if I see bad grammar or a situation that doesn't quite click, like major plot holes then I get pushed out. I really hate stuff like author notes and those random "Play: I just had sex", things where they want you to look up a theme song to go along with their scenes. 

I immerse myself in the story, I commonly immerse myself as my character when I play Fallout or Skyrim, and I dissociate when there is some situation that pushes me out of a fantasy and role-play situation into a real-world one. 

Generally, orcs are fine in a story, though I do dislike orcs as a trope.  I wouldn't say one would dissociate from an orc, though, unless they were playing an orc. 

[bjornk]

36 minutes ago, Veniat said:

Huh, no, mostly, if I see bad grammar or a situation that doesn't quite click, like major plot holes then I get pushed out. I really hate stuff like author notes and those random "Play: I just had sex", things where they want you to look up a theme song to go along with their scenes. 

I immerse myself in the story, I commonly immerse myself as my character when I play Fallout or Skyrim, and I dissociate when there is some situation that pushes me out of a fantasy and role-play situation into a real-world one. 

Generally, orcs are fine in a story, though I do dislike orcs as a trope.  I wouldn't say one would dissociate from an orc, though, unless they were playing an orc. 

 

It was neither about the Orcs nor the LoTR. I gave you that example to show you in order to claim immersion is antithetical to dissociation, you'd need define the context, otherwise it would literally be apples vs oranges. People can immerse themselves in Lord of the Rings as a story without associating with any character in it. What gives people the feeling of immersion varies from person to person, so does what they associate themselves with or don't. It's not something everyone universally agrees on. Dissociating from one element of something that you've immersed yourself in, wouldn't affect your immersion, if that's not what gives you the feeling of immersion.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by bjornk

[Miauzi]

Vor 1 Stunde sagte Björnk:

 

von Star Trek Das Holodeck könnte die ultimative Immersionsumgebung sein, aber würden Sie das wirklich in einem Spiel wollen? Ich würde nicht. Würde es ausreichen, die Spielwelt aus der 1st-Person-Perspektive zu betrachten? Auch mit einem VR-Headset? Was passiert zum Beispiel mit meiner Stimme? Ändert sich dadurch auch meine Stimme oder werde ich weiterhin mit meiner eigenen Stimme mit NPCs sprechen? Selbst heute ist es möglich, KI-Systeme wie ChatGPT und ElevenLabs zu nutzen, um mit der eigenen Stimme mit NPCs zu sprechen, und das würde ich nicht wollen. Es würde die Immersion ziemlich stören, wenn man als Charakter einer anderen Rasse oder des anderen Geschlechts spielen möchte.

 

 

 

 

No - in a holodeck you can only play yourself ... but never actually change into another role

Sure I know that the crew members put on costumes and so on - but an actual "deep-dive" system also allows a complete body change ... in all respects ... as only (self-conscious) holograms can do.

(think of the number when Mr. Kim turned an NPC into a "cow").

For example, why shouldn't my own voice change? I don't like my own ... when I recorded myself on "tape" 45 years ago - an absolute disaster how it sounds.

Yes - of course I have no problem at all with these changes ... I, on the other hand, think it is essential for a real immersion.

Look ... everyone here has a different view of how the "immersion" should ultimately go - everyone has different ideas of what is absolutely necessary for HIS game and what is too much

 

Je härter einen das reale Leben bedrängt - desto stärker müssen die Mittel sein um diesem wenigstens für ein paar Stunden entfliehen zu können

 

 

 

[bjornk]

3 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

No - in a holodeck you can only play yourself ... but never actually change into another role

You can change your role, but not the character, it would still be you. I thought of it from the "ultimate realism" point of view, I guess The Matrix would've been similar in that regard.

 

 

[Miauzi]

Vor 22 Minuten sagte Björnk:

Du kannst deine Rolle ändern, aber nicht den Charakter, du wärst immer noch du selbst. Ich habe es unter dem Gesichtspunkt des „ultimativen Realismus“ betrachtet, ich schätze, „Matrix“ wäre in dieser Hinsicht ähnlich gewesen.

 

 

 

The basic idea of Matrix had already been described by "Lem" in the work I mentioned.

and also the associated problems of recognising that one is in a "virtual" instead of a "real" one.

but we have to use these terms very carefully now ... astronomy aka cosmology are currently discussing the theory of a "holographic" universe

thus the term "reality" also takes on a new meaning for our everyday world - especially in the border areas such as computer games and the desired "immersion".

[Veniat]

1 hour ago, bjornk said:

 

It was neither about the Orcs nor the LoTR. I gave you that example to show you in order to claim immersion is antithetical to dissociation, you'd need define the context, otherwise it would literally be apples vs oranges. People can immerse themselves in Lord of the Rings as a story without associating with any character in it. What gives people the feeling of immersion varies from person to person, so does what they associate themselves with or don't. It's not something everyone universally agrees on. Dissociating from one element of something that you've immersed yourself in, wouldn't affect your immersion, if that's not what gives you the feeling of immersion.

 

I mostly said that out of boredom, but no, you're completely wrong in this sense, you're not taking scope into account. 

You're talking about triggers, what causes someone to dissociate, but dissociation in itself is a lack of immersion.  Immersion is forming a connection, dissociation is breaking that connection, you can't be dissociated and immersed in something at the same time, by definition it's impossible. 

[Miauzi]

Vor 30 Minuten sagte Veniat:

Ich habe das meistens aus Langeweile gesagt, aber nein, in diesem Sinne liegen Sie völlig falsch, Sie berücksichtigen nicht den Umfang.

Sie sprechen von Auslösern, die dazu führen, dass jemand dissoziiert, aber Dissoziation an sich ist ein Mangel an Immersion. Durch Eintauchen entsteht eine Verbindung, durch Dissoziation wird diese Verbindung unterbrochen. Man kann nicht gleichzeitig dissoziiert und in etwas versunken sein, das ist per Definition unmöglich. 

 

It is not a flaw - if one does not perceive it as a flaw or considers it as such.

already the game-internal computer menu - which the player refreshes in SAO (sword-art-online) - breaks the total immersion - so it is an element of "dissociation".

In "Matrix" they already need a special "pill" to cancel the total effect.

But since immersion can never be complete today - there will always be elements of "dissociation" - so there is a "duality" that conditions each other.

Whoever sits in front of a computer screen and speaks of a "complete immersion" ... should perhaps talk to a doctor of his choice.

?

 

[bjornk]

9 hours ago, Veniat said:

I mostly said that out of boredom, but no, you're completely wrong in this sense, you're not taking scope into account. 

You're talking about triggers, what causes someone to dissociate, but dissociation in itself is a lack of immersion.  Immersion is forming a connection, dissociation is breaking that connection, you can't be dissociated and immersed in something at the same time, by definition it's impossible. 

 

I've talked about the importance of context and you've completely ignored it. Immersion does not mean "forming a connection", that would be association, which is never used in place of immersion, especially in the context of immersion in a video game. You, as a player, don't "associate" yourself with a video game, or "disassociate" from it. You can, however, immerse yourself in it, without forming any personal connection to it, or anything in it, which is what I've said so many times. "If you want to immerse yourself in a video game, you must not be disassociated from it", which seems to be your point, is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. What exactly is this association with the video game that you'd want to disassociate from? Are you one of the developers or something who don't like how the game turned out? What does it have to with immersion anyway, i.e. becoming completely involved in playing a video game? Absolutely nothing.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by bjornk

[Veniat]

3 hours ago, bjornk said:

 

I've talked about the importance of context and you've completely ignored it. Immersion does not mean "forming a connection", that would be association, which is never used in place of immersion, especially in the context of immersion in a video game. You, as a player, don't "associate" yourself with a video game, or "disassociate" from it. You can, however, immerse yourself in it, without forming any personal connection to it, or anything in it, which is what I've said so many times. "If you want to immerse yourself in a video game, you must not be disassociated from it", which seems to be your point, is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. What exactly is this association with the video game that you'd want to disassociate from? Are you one of the developers or something who don't like how the game turned out? What does it have to with immersion anyway, i.e. becoming completely involved in playing a video game? Absolutely nothing.

 

 

You know, I've never used this phrase before, but that sounds like a you problem.

From reading your post, I think you have difficulty connecting to characters and playing them from their perspective, that's what being immersed in a game means.  Forming an empathic connection with the character you're playing. 

If you're immersed in a story, you have to be forming some form of personal connection to it, emotional, or just through your own enjoyment, to the point you forget reality for a few moments.  Being dissociated from your character breaks that connection, it's a sudden jolt of discontinuity that breaks your emotional connection to the character and pushes you out of the world your playing back into reality. 

That's literally what being dissociated means, I'm really not going to argue over language if that's what your arguments are going to boil down to. 

[bjornk]

2 hours ago, Veniat said:

You know, I've never used this phrase before, but that sounds like a you problem.

From reading your post, I think you have difficulty connecting to characters and playing them from their perspective, that's what being immersed in a game means.  Forming an empathic connection with the character you're playing. 

If you're immersed in a story, you have to be forming some form of personal connection to it, emotional, or just through your own enjoyment, to the point you forget reality for a few moments.  Being dissociated from your character breaks that connection, it's a sudden jolt of discontinuity that breaks your emotional connection to the character and pushes you out of the world your playing back into reality. 

That's literally what being dissociated means, I'm really not going to argue over language if that's what your arguments are going to boil down to. 

 

Your entire interpretation of immersion seems to rely on having a character in a game or in a story whom you can identify yourself with. If "being immersed in a game" means "forming an empathic connection with the character you're playing", then how do you immerse yourself in something, such as a strategy game, with no character to identify with? What exactly is the "empathetic/emotional connection" you form with these kind of games and how would you disassociate yourself from it? This is where your short-sighted narrative collapses, because immersion, by definition, does not need or rely on having a character to identify yourself with, does not require an emotional/empathetic connection, or influenced by the lack of it.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by bjornk

[Veniat]

2 hours ago, bjornk said:

 

Your entire interpretation of immersion seems to rely on having a character in a game or in a story whom you can identify yourself with. If "being immersed in a game" means "forming an empathic connection with the character you're playing", then how do you immerse yourself in something, such as a strategy game, with no character to identify with? What exactly is the "empathetic/emotional connection" you form with these kind of games and how would you disassociate yourself from it? This is where your short-sighted narrative collapses, because immersion, by definition, does not need or rely on having a character to identify yourself with, does not require an emotional/empathetic connection, or influenced by the lack of it.

 

You're misinterpreting my statement, either to fit your own narrative or out of ignorance. 

No, being immersed in a story doesn't require a single character that you're attached to, I was referring to video games which generally have a single character that you play. 

You require some type of connection to be immersed in a story, again, by definition. I'm not going to repeat myself and end up cycling through different ways of wording the exact same statement, especially since this is a Starfield thread, not one discussing the basics of audience immersion. 

[bjornk]

  

5 hours ago, Veniat said:

You're misinterpreting my statement, either to fit your own narrative or out of ignorance. 

No, being immersed in a story doesn't require a single character that you're attached to, I was referring to video games which generally have a single character that you play. 

You require some type of connection to be immersed in a story, again, by definition.

 

I'm not misinterpreting anything, you have very clearly stated that, according to your interpretation of the word, in order to be immersed in a game or in a story, you'd have to form a personal connection to them, empathetic or emotional, that's quite literally what you wrote:

 

10 hours ago, Veniat said:

Forming an empathic connection with the character you're playing.

 

10 hours ago, Veniat said:

If you're immersed in a story, you have to be forming some form of personal connection to it, emotional, or just through your own enjoyment, to the point you forget reality for a few moments.  Being dissociated from your character breaks that connection, it's a sudden jolt of discontinuity that breaks your emotional connection to the character and pushes you out of the world your playing back into reality.

 

And I asked you several questions which you didn't answer...

 

8 hours ago, bjornk said:

how do you immerse yourself in something, such as a strategy game, with no character to identify with? What exactly is the "empathetic/emotional connection" you form with these kind of games and how would you disassociate yourself from it?

 

in order to show you that your interpretation of the word immersion leaves no room to be immersed in anything if there's no personal connection to it, which is obviously false. By its dictionary definition, immersion requires attention, not a personal connection (emotional, empathetic or otherwise). One can immerse himself in a particular study/activity or in a particular topic/language/culture etc. without having any personal connection to it, which is why disassociation from a non-existing personal connection is completely irrelevant in terms of immersion.

 

 

[Dragneel013]

I'm fine with Mute Protagonist most of the time but if a game has a lot of dialog than I need my character to speak. I'm going to wait until there are mods like dragonborn voice and bug fixes before I buy the game. 

[Trykz]

FO4's implementation sucked.

 

I didn't like my Afro-American, Hispanic, or Asian looking characters sounding like a middle-aged white housewife.

If you're going to go that route, then don't bother with racial diversity in presets.

 

I don't mind a voiced protagonist when there are multiple voices to choose from. I'd have been fine with Skyrim

having a voiced Dragonborn if my Elf character sounded like an Elf in dialogue.

 

I mean, how would "fus-ro-dah" have sounded with Saadia's voice? Hella sexy, Unquestionably. ?

[Haviengar]

The Voiced Protagonist bugged me the most in Fallout 4. Thank god they are going back to their older design of a silent protagonist.  I play Beth games to role play my own characters, not play as pre defined personalities. Infact some of my favourite RPGs have had silent protagonists.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Haviengar

[FauxFurry]

On 7/28/2023 at 3:07 AM, bjornk said:

Which would also be included in the dictionary, if that's a thing.

 

 

A book you read, or a film you watch wouldn't give you a role that you can immerse yourself in or disassociate from. You'd be passively identifying with someone else's stories. If that is the degree of immersion you expect from a game, then you'd certainly get it without needing to associate yourself with a role.

 

 

 

 

There are a few types of books that are exceptions to this rule, be they Choose Your Own Adventure stories and RPG books like the ones that Marvel used to call Adventure Gamebooks.

[bjornk]

8 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

There are a few types of books that are exceptions to this rule, be they Choose Your Own Adventure stories and RPG books like the ones that Marvel used to call Adventure Gamebooks.

 

On 7/28/2023 at 11:07 AM, bjornk said:

You'd be passively identifying with someone else's stories.

[27X]

On 7/3/2023 at 12:33 AM, Jellyfish505 said:

Just discovered the player is unvoiced in Starfield. Instantly lost all interest in the game  

 

No one is going to play the game for you

[fred200]

I would have hoped the unvoiced protagonist in Baldur's Gate 3 would have silenced the voiced proponents.

But I guess people just need something to complain about.

Starfield is close - keeping my finger above the Download button. So to speak.