An RPG in 2023 with a mute protagonist???

[Jellyfish505]

Just discovered the player is unvoiced in Starfield. Instantly lost all interest in the game  

[DocClox]

On the other hand, I mainly got interested in the game when I found out they'd ditched the player VA from Fallout 4.

 

I'm really looking forward to this one

[Algene]

Fuck yes dude, I'm really sorry that you don't like it and I may seem to be rubbing salt in the wound, but I just love going back to mute protagonists, now I'm actually hyped!

[DocClox]

Mute protagonists, a choice of background for the player, and a return to Oblivion style dialogue screens. No more being elbowed out of the way by Nazeem, or having Deacon talk all over Carrington when he's explaining the mission. And a proper persuasion system rather than just "buy stuff cheaper".

 

It's like they took the things I really hated about Fallout and walked them all back. This is going to be so good!

[Raisakas]

oooo!

RPG vise that is actually a good approach! Not bad at all!

Maybe Beth is still capable of learning from her mistakes (like Fo4).... naah.... guns are still pulled out from thin air.

 

[bjornk]

Voiced protagonists take a significant amount of role playing away from role playing games. They severely limit what the player character can say in dialogues. They are more suitable for narrative-driven games with already established characters in which you don't get to create a player character from scratch. An optional AI voiced protagonist can be a solution for people who want to voice the player character they create. Also mods that add new lines of dialogue for the player character would seem awkward without a voice when they have a voice in the rest of the game. Using AI can be a solution again, but then the quality of AI voices isn't good enough to give you a seamless experience.

[MrFuturehope]

3 hours ago, Algene said:

Fuck yes dude, I'm really sorry that you don't like it and I may seem to be rubbing salt in the wound, but I just love going back to mute protagonists, now I'm actually hyped!

 

You're a dream of indie developers with low budget.

[MrFuturehope]

I believe in case of Bethesda game, missing voice of the protagonist could have any reason except lack of money.

[bjornk]

Voice protagonist or lack of it can certainly be a selling point for a game. Some people are okay with giving up on a portion of role playing experience in return for a more cinematic experience. Most hardcore role-players however would prefer a silent player character in order to be able to insert their imaginings on how their character would speak or act in general. Some people may not want to force themselves to do that, to me, however, that's the whole point of playing a RPG.

 

BGS games traditionally offer a semi-blank canvas to players that they can fill using their imagination, which is one of the main reasons they all have massive amount of mods. Since BGS sucks big time at quest design and writing, it's better for them to avoid anything narrative-driven with a voiced protagonist and so on. Just make a semi-blank canvas again filled with enough stuff to fuel player's imagination and leave the rest to players, and modders. May not be the best strategy to make a good game, but that's always been the best strategy for BGS.

[DocClox]

31 minutes ago, bjornk said:

Since BGS sucks big time at quest design and writing, it's better for them to avoid anything narrative-driven with a voiced protagonist and so on.

 

I tend to look at it as Bethesda giving me an opportunity for collaborative story telling. They provide the skeleton of a story, and a whole load of other stuff, and I get to put the flesh on that skeleton with my actions in the game.

 

I don't think it's bad storytelling at all. It's just not a form many people recognize as its own thing. It's also about the closest I've ever got to scratching the table top RPG itch without actually sitting down with half a dozen friends and some polydice.

 

I really do feel their story telling is sadly under-appreciated.

[bjornk]

42 minutes ago, DocClox said:

I really do feel their story telling is sadly under-appreciated.

 

With their shallow characters, cliche RPG tropes, toddler level writing, inconsistent and often stupid design choices, I think I feel the opposite, but as I've said, it does give you more room to role-play and create your own stories and so on. If only they were capable of making their worlds a little more dynamic and allow more emergent game play, but at this point it's clear to me that will never happen.

[DocClox]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:08 PM, bjornk said:

With their shallow characters, cliche RPG tropes, toddler level writing, inconsistent and often stupid design choices, I think I feel the opposite

 

Well, far be it for me to accuse you of over-appreciation

 

On 7/3/2023 at 1:08 PM, bjornk said:

it does give you more room to role-play and create your own stories and so on

 

 

Which is, I think, the important thing. At least, it's the thing I'm mainly interested in.

 

I mean, yeah, their NPCs tend to be sketched rather than detailed. But then, I've never really felt the urge to go scuba diving with Nazeem while he shows me the sunken remains of his old home town and tells me about his life as a little girl. I'd try and defend "stupid design decisions", but Fallout 4 had so many I'm not sure I want to try.

 

I confess, I'm not sure what cliche RPG tropes you have in mnd, so I'll not comment on that. Toddler level writing brings me back to the point of my previous post, so clearly we're going to have to agree to differ on that point.

 

I do think though that a lot of what they do that makes roleplaying easier is done quite deliberately and for that exact reason.

Edited July 21, 2023 by DocClox

[bjornk]

2 hours ago, DocClox said:

I've never really felt the urge to go suba diving with Nazeem while he shows me the sunken remains of his old home town and tells me about his life as a little girl

 

I hate Nazeem as much as the next guy, but I'd definitely be excited about a game where NPCs can invite me to an activity and I get to follow them for a change. Not that I'd be interested in listening to their fictional stories, but it would be a major breakthrough for BGS if their NPCs can be more than just quest/item dispensers or extra firepower or assassination targets. They can't even traverse the game world on their own without getting stuck at some place. NPCs inviting the player as a follower for an adventure and travel all around the game world is just a wet dream of mine I'm afraid, which would also need to be supported by a more realistic, more natural and persistent relationship system. Won't ever happen in BGS games due to their player-centric design approach in which the player is the instigator of literally everything in the game.

 

2 hours ago, DocClox said:

I do think though that a lot of what they do that makes roleplaying easier is done quite deliberately and for that exact reason.

 

I, on the hand, think that it's mainly due to the technical limitations of their engine and tools, risk avoidance, laziness and overall incompetence. They themselves admit they've been making the same game for years and I totally agree. I don't think there's anything deliberate about it, for instance what could be deliberate about their toddler level writing on things that don't even remotely affect game play? I'm not even a native speaker of English but even I find it laughable.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by bjornk

[Jellyfish505]

6 hours ago, bjornk said:

Voiced protagonists take a significant amount of role playing away from role playing games. They severely limit what the player character can say in dialogues. They are more suitable for narrative-driven games with already established characters in which you don't get to create a player character from scratch. An optional AI voiced protagonist can be a solution for people who want to voice the player character they create. Also mods that add new lines of dialogue for the player character would seem awkward without a voice when they have a voice in the rest of the game. Using AI can be a solution again, but then the quality of AI voices isn't good enough to give you a seamless experience.

 

I tried Skyrim & F03 but they weren't really my thing. I only realised RPGs might be 'my thing' after Fallout 4 & it struck me that the voiced character was a major contributor.

 

My issue is that I get to play me every day, so the character being 'me' was absolutely not what I want. Actors are experts are being someone else, they don't (usually) play themselves & often sound quite different than they do in real life. When I play an RPG, I am trying to get immersed in being someone else. A voiced player is a huge bonus in that regard, very immersive, as a character that sounds like someone else really help me get out of my head and into the toon's head.

 

For me, an unvoiced character is fine for FPS shooters, but not RPGs.

 

If an AI voiced option becomes available, then I will indeed buy the game, but until then, I'm out.

 

[bjornk]

1 hour ago, Jellyfish505 said:

 When I play an RPG, I am trying to get immersed in being someone else. A voiced player is a huge bonus in that regard, very immersive, as a character that sounds like someone else really help me get out of my head and into the toon's head.

 

That's not what role-playing is, in fact, that's exactly what everyone else does in every non-RPG game. What do you think people do when they play as Pacman, Mario, Gordon Freeman, Batman, Spiderman, Lara Croft, Aloy and so on? They do the exact same thing. They put on the character's shoes and pretend they are this character. Which is why I keep saying that playing as pre-established characters such as Geralt of Rivia etc. takes away a significant portion of role-playing. Yes, you can still pretend that you are a different Geralt but to what extend? The character imposes certain boundaries on what you can or should do in the game.

 

In the purest sense of role-playing, you basically imagine a character together with their race, gender, appearance, personalities, traits, voice etc. and play the game while constantly asking yourself about "What would this character do in this situation?". You are not supposed to be the "actor", you are the scriptwriter of the particular character you created.

 

This is a fairly useful analogy, I think...
 

Non-RPG: You are the actor.
RPG: You are the scriptwriter for the actor.

 

If you try to think this way, I'm sure you'd realize that a voiced protagonist, which inevitably imposes a certain personality on the character, would hinder your ability as the scriptwriter.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by bjornk

[Jellyfish505]

I understand your point but that's not how I see it at all.

 

For me, the mute protagonist in a world of speaking characters screams "this is just a game" with every single interaction. It makes me more likely to just shoot the toon in the face like a FPS shooter, because other interactions seem weak, remote, gamey: I can hear the gunfire but weirdly I can't hear the response I just spoke  

 

 

[bjornk]

26 minutes ago, Jellyfish505 said:

For me, the mute protagonist in a world of speaking characters screams "this is just a game" with every single interaction.

Probably because you're used to play video games that were designed as a cinematic experience, much like a movie. Based on that assumption, if I were to hazard a guess I'd say that you'd probably started playing video games in around mid-2000's or later. ?

[Miauzi]

Vor 1 Stunde sagte Björnk:

 

Das ist nicht das, was Rollenspiele ausmachen, sondern genau das, was alle anderen in jedem Nicht-RPG- Spiel tun. Was denken Sie, was Menschen tun, wenn sie Pacman, Mario, Gordon Freeman, Batman, Spiderman, Lara Croft, Aloy usw. spielen? Sie machen genau das Gleiche. Sie ziehen die Schuhe der Figur an und tun so, als wären sie diese Figur. Deshalb sage ich immer wieder, dass das Spielen in vorgefertigten Charakteren wie Geralt von Rivia usw. einen erheblichen Teil des Rollenspiels wegnimmt. Ja, Sie können immer noch so tun, als wären Sie ein anderer Geralt, aber inwieweit? Der Charakter legt bestimmte Grenzen fest, was Sie im Spiel tun können oder sollten.

 

Im reinsten Sinne des Rollenspiels stellen Sie sich im Grunde einen Charakter zusammen mit seiner Rasse, seinem Geschlecht, seinem Aussehen, seinen Persönlichkeiten, Eigenschaften, seiner Stimme usw. vor und spielen das Spiel, während Sie sich ständig fragen: „Was würde dieser Charakter in dieser Situation tun?“ . Sie sollen nicht der „Schauspieler“ sein, Sie sind der Drehbuchautor der jeweiligen Figur, die Sie geschaffen haben.

 

Ich denke, das ist eine ziemlich nützliche Analogie ...
 

Nicht-Rollenspiel: Du bist der Schauspieler.
RPG: Sie sind der Drehbuchautor für den Schauspieler.

 

Wenn Sie versuchen, so zu denken, werden Sie sicher erkennen, dass ein stimmhafter Protagonist, der der Figur unweigerlich eine bestimmte Persönlichkeit verleiht, Ihre Fähigkeiten als Drehbuchautor beeinträchtigen würde.

 

 

I see it similarly different to the user to whom you are replying.

An actor plays a "role" ... like that of "Juliet" or "Macbeth" - to stay with classical things for a moment.

I myself played the role of "Captain Nemo" in my childhood - whereby the submarine itself is the actual actor and not so much the Indian prince.

---

And anyone who has ever seriously studied theatre or film ... an actor can always "interpret" his role and this is where the freedom lies.

What you do on the other hand ... you slip into the role of a scriptwriter and create your own character.

But even they are limited ... by the universe in which they act.

A computer RPG is not a LARP ... Their statements fit more to the latter.

---

That doesn't have to be mutually exclusive - it's up to you how well you can deal with the limitations and possibilities of the world ... and how well he manages to create a harmony with his own "head-cinema".

[fred200]

Voiced protagonist was absolutely awful for Quest mods.

Mod authors were limited by the existing dialogue choices. With Starfield, that will not be an issue.

I am really excited to see what great mods we get now. An active slave economy is high on the list.

[Gameplayer]

It is too bad that the protagonist actually speaks with subtitles rather than with sign language, 

Go full mute protag or not at all.

[pr0nsax]

12 hours ago, Jellyfish505 said:

Just discovered the player is unvoiced in Starfield. Instantly lost all interest in the game  

Other way around for me. It's quite obvious what you lost with a voiced character, in Fallout 4. Too much of the budget goes into recording that instead of giving writers the freedom to do whatever they want.

[Jellyfish505]

3 hours ago, pr0nsax said:

It's quite obvious what you lost with a voiced character, in Fallout 4.

 

Not obvious at all to me. Fallout 4 kept me playing (much modded) for 4,099 hours.  Fallout 3 was 66 hours, Skyrim was 352 hours. For me, not having a mute character in a world of speaking characters makes a huge difference.

 

I'll buy Starfield when I can get character AI voicing (which will have the added advantage of being able to change the sound of of the voice). 

[RoKFenris]

16 hours ago, Jellyfish505 said:

Just discovered the player is unvoiced in Starfield. Instantly lost all interest in the game  

Wow, thank you for posting this, it made me a lot more interested in the game, and I'm not even being ironic ?

I've always liked unvoiced protagonists far more than voiced ones. There's something about voiced protagonists that makes it much harder for me to be immersed in the game — it kind of makes me feel like I'm watching someone play, as opposed to playing myself — whereas when my character is unvoiced I can lose myself inside the game world.

[Kraven12]

What I hated with a "voiced protag," is that it never matched the one I created, especially if they are young or different nationality. So I am glad it is silent this time around. 

[ilostmysn1210]

Since Starfield is going to be mod-able, I think the choice of going for a mute protagonist was spot on. A Modder, or Bethesda could create a mod or instructions to add voice lines AI generated or otherwise.

Gives the writers more freedom. It's a fact a voiced protagonist takes resources away from other area's.

 

As for the mute vs voiced playable character, I will play mute over voiced. I have 2000+ of hours on Skyrim and only 400 of Fallout 4. Even modding more choices into Fallout 4 still doesn't beat base Skyrim in my opinion.