Rule proposal regarding English as the main forum language

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

There are problems that occur here. Also rule breaking. I haven't seen it bad as those locations you have mentioned here. I could be wrong but in any case, there are dozens of people at any given time looking over the threads that can use translator software, (as you stated it is easy) and know the rules that if something does get out of hand, they can report it. Moderation team here usually responds (or at least looks at it quickly)  Besides those dozens of people that know how to translate... chances are at any given movement there are likely again another half dozen of people that are native speakers of various post in different languages that can read what is happening quite easily. This is one of the few sites that I'd say has little issues with translation and very little opportunity for someone to try to be "funny" and pull something off against the rules... well at least for the long term.

 

I am a moderator of another similar site to to this one and we have no issues with someone using their native language to ask a question or post comments. It is easy to track down and see what is happening. Blocking them means we are blocking potential users of the site that might have something to contribute.  Sometimes, they get encouraged to actually start modding themselves.   I have personally worked with users that have moved to become mod content creators and more than one of them are not native English speakers. German, Russian for example is what they speak natively. Come to think of it most of those I work with are non-native English speakers!  Many are excellent (and sometimes more competent in English than native speakers ) at communicating in English

 

Browse the site for a couple of months and see the post and what happens and you will see this isn't like the other sites. 

 

> Agree with you. Blocking users who are speaking in their native language, unless their posts are insulting an offensive is rude and uncultured. I speak English but sometimes, just as my Prince did, I say something else instead of saying what I wanted to say and it puts me in the trouble because some readers gets offended. I am grateful to Ashal and moderators for showing understanding to us, non native English speakers. This is one of the great sides of LL among (sex) subjects and mods.

[worik]

2 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

We need a Klingon translation program.

*cough*

The galaxy already has an established solution ?No need to rely on earthly science fiction

e

[Miauzi]

Vor 5 Stunden sagte Wandering_Mania:

Ich vermute, das verwendet einen Chrome-basierten Browser. Richtig?

ich z.B. verwende den guten alten Fire-Fox

rechts oben im Fenster ist die Schaltfläche "Diese Seite übersetzen"

 

was komplett anderes ist es einen eigenen Text in Englisch - welches NICHT die Muttersprache - ist zu verfassen

die tools die mir zugänglich sind produzieren nicht selten recht kurriose Dinge - die bei manchen Diskussionen zu Verwirrung führen

 

zumal wenn der den Beitrag lesende selbst ein Übersetzungs-Tool verwendet

 

letztlich kommt dann "Römische Post" heraus:

Original-Beitrag (des Autors) -> Übersetzung -> englischer Forumstext -> Übersetzung -> zu lesender Beitrag (des Forums-Users)

 

ohne dem ist die (Fehler-) Kette kürzer:

Original-Beitrag (des Autors) -> Übersetzung -> zu lesender Beitrag (des Forums-Users)

 

es sind letztlich (für mich) ganz praktische Seiten wenn ich Texte in meiner Muttersprache (deutsch) schreibe

und nein - ich kann meinen von der "Maschine" ins Englisch übersetzten Text NICHT korrektur-lesen - wenn ich diese Fähigkeiten

hätte bräuchte ich keine Maschinen-Tools!!

 

Spoiler

I e.g. use the good old Fire-Fox

At the top right of the window is the "Translate this page" button

What is completely different is writing your own text in English - which is NOT your mother tongue

the tools that are available to me often produce quite strange things - which lead to confusion in some discussions

especially if the person reading the post uses a translation tool himself

finally the "Roman Post" comes out:

Original post (by the author) -> translation -> English forum text -> translation -> post to be read (by the forum user)

without that the (error) chain is shorter:

Original post (by the author) -> translation -> post to be read (by the forum user)

they are ultimately (for me) very practical aspects when I write texts in my mother tongue (German).

and no - I can NOT proofread my text translated by the "machine" into English - if I have those skills

I wouldn't need machine tools!!

 

[worik]

50 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

they are ultimately (for me) very practical aspects when I write texts in my mother tongue (German).

and no - I can NOT proofread my text translated by the "machine" into English - if I have those skills

I wouldn't need machine tools!!

? And that is a very important issue for the community. If we want to be accessible for everybody everywhere, we have to acknowledge that some people simply rely on the help from their computer. Same thing for people who can't see and rely on text-to-speech support.

 

Personally, I stumble upon posts that appear "odd" to me. Until I realize that it is most likely somebody with little language knowledge or machine translated-to-nonsense.

Once I realize that, it helps ME a lot to respond and probably ask the right question back.

Edited October 30, 2022 by worik
typo

[Miauzi]

Vor 22 Minuten sagte workik:

? Und das ist ein sehr wichtiges Thema für die Community. Wenn wir überall und für alle zugänglich sein wollen, müssen wir anerkennen, dass manche Menschen einfach auf die Hilfe ihres Computers angewiesen sind. Das Gleiche gilt für Personen, die den Test-to-Speech-Support nicht sehen und sich nicht darauf verlassen können.

 

Ich persönlich stolpere über Beiträge, die mir „seltsam“ erscheinen. Bis ich merke, dass es höchstwahrscheinlich jemand mit geringen Sprachkenntnissen oder maschinell in Unsinn übersetzt ist.

Sobald mir das klar ist, hilft es MIR sehr, darauf zu antworten und wahrscheinlich die richtige Frage zurück zu stellen.

 

hinzu kommt aus meiner Sicht ein weiteres Problem

ich hole dazu mal ein bisschen weiter aus:

Ich bin 1962 in "Ost"-Deutschland geboren - habe dort mein Ing.-Studium abgeschlossen und recht aktiv an der "Wende" 1989 mitgewirkt

auf Grund meiner "Affinität" zu Computern kam ich 1989 auf meinen ersten CCC (Chaos-Computer-Congress)

was man mir dort in Sachen "Daten-Fern-Übertragung" und APC gezeigt hatte - motivierte mich recht schnell mich mit diesem Thema zu beschäftigen

technische Hilfe seitens erfahrender "Freaks" bekam ich rasch und so entstand auch eine Erfahrungsaustausch über das technische hinaus

 

eins Sache war schon damals bemerkenswert -> für viele junge User waren deren Beiträge in den Diskussions-Bereichen oft die ihre ersten schriftlichen "Eigenprodukte"!

Wie mit diesen manchmal recht kryptischen "Botschaften" umgehen?

Und man bedenke - wir waren alle in einem gemeinsamen (deutschen) Sprachraum!

Na jedenfalls nicht "niedermachen" - oft ist deren mündliche Kommunikation ähnlich "sparsam" wie ihre schriftliche.

 

und nun der Bogen zu heute...

..offensichtlich sind die Probleme von damals heute immer noch existent - wie ich erst vor wenigen Minuten wieder im Hilfe-Bereich sehen konnte

Eine Frage so zu formulieren das ein anderer (der helfen möchte) auch daraus "schlau" wird ist etwas was man ERLERNEN muss aber auch erlernen kann.

(wo aber Schulen heute noch mehr versagen als damals)

 

und dieser Prozess ist strenggenommen niemals wirklich abgeschlossen - wie ich an mir selbst und meinen eigenen Problemen sehe *ggg*

 

Spoiler

there is another problem from my point of view

I'll dig a little further into this:

I was born in "East" Germany in 1962 - I completed my engineering studies there and was actively involved in the "Wende" in 1989

due to my "affinity" to computers I came to my first CCC (Chaos Computer Congress) in 1989

what I was shown there in terms of "long-distance data transmission" and APC - motivated me to deal with this topic very quickly

I quickly got technical help from experienced "freaks" and so there was also an exchange of experiences beyond the technical side

one thing was remarkable even back then -> for many young users, their contributions in the discussion areas were often their first written "own products"!

How to deal with these sometimes quite cryptic "messages"?

And consider - we were all in a common (German) language area!

In any case, don't "put them down" - their verbal communication is often as "thrifty" as their written ones.

and now the arc to today...

..obviously the problems from back then are still there today - as I could see again in the help area just a few minutes ago

To formulate a question in such a way that someone else (who wants to help) can also "make sense" of it is something that you have to LEARN but can also learn.

(where schools fail even more today than they did back then)

and strictly speaking this process is never really finished - as I can see from myself and my own problems *ggg*

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Miauzi

[Wandering_Mania]

10 hours ago, myuhinny said:

I'm using edge. It has sailormax translator already added to it. But I could go to extension and add a different one if I wanted to.

Oh geez, and here I thought I was the one out of place. What with my still using of Firefox.

 

7 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

There are problems that occur here. Also rule breaking. I haven't seen it bad as those locations you have mentioned here.

Well the problem with Steam, is that the rules get 'selectively enforced'. Certain people, like me for one, get targeted. We get 'passive aggressively trolled', 'personally insulted/attacked', and 'goaded into hostile' responses. While every report we send, gets ignored. But the second we say anything 'combative' back, We get instant perma-bans. No warnings, no anything else, just 'boom you are kicked out for wrong think'.

 

I mean I've been banned from Steam hubs for 'appeal PMs', asking simple questions about game changes, talking about game changes that patches made, pointing out broken/unbalanced parts a game, simply correcting 'misinformation', defending myself against false accusations, the list goes on and on. So yeah, there are some serious problems with the rule enforcement on Steam. I mean hell, even their  Global Rules & Guidelines state that "Do not post any content on Steam containing the following: Porn..."; And yet they now allow all those AO games to be posted. And because those rules haven't been updated in probably 20 years, I don't even think that they know what their rules are. But they will link them to you at any given chance saying: 'Follow these rules, but we don't even follow them. Because we're hypocrites!"

 

Any how. Sorry for the rant. But as you can see, I have some serious issues with the way the 'rules' are enforced on the Steam Hubs.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Wandering_Mania

[Wandering_Mania]

5 hours ago, Miauzi said:

I e.g. use the good old Fire-Fox

At the top right of the window is the "Translate this page" button

What is completely different is writing your own text in English - which is NOT your mother tongue

the tools that are available to me often produce quite strange things - which lead to confusion in some discussions

especially if the person reading the post uses a translation tool himself

finally the "Roman Post" comes out:

Original post (by the author) -> translation -> English forum text -> translation -> post to be read (by the forum user)

without that the (error) chain is shorter:

Original post (by the author) -> translation -> post to be read (by the forum user)

they are ultimately (for me) very practical aspects when I write texts in my mother tongue (German).

and no - I can NOT proofread my text translated by the "machine" into English - if I have those skills

I wouldn't need machine tools!!

 

That's gotta be an add-on or something that I don't have. Because I use Firefox as well, and I don't see any 'Translate this page' button. Though it may be because the page is mostly in 'native OS language' so it doesn't appear. Leaving any 'non-english posts' unreadable to me.

[Miauzi]

Vor 24 Minuten sagte Wandering_Mania:

 

Das muss ein Add-On sein oder etwas, das ich nicht habe. Weil ich auch Firefox verwende und keine Schaltfläche "Diese Seite übersetzen" sehe. Dies kann jedoch daran liegen, dass die Seite hauptsächlich in der „nativen Betriebssystemsprache“ vorliegt und daher nicht angezeigt wird. Lassen Sie alle "nicht englischen Beiträge" für mich unlesbar.

schaue mal bitte hier

https://github.com/FilipePS/Traduzir-paginas-web

 

TWP - Translate Web Pages

firefox addon

 

[Wandering_Mania]

41 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

schaue mal bitte hier

https://github.com/FilipePS/Traduzir-paginas-web

 

TWP - Translate Web Pages

firefox addon

 

Yeah I looked it up via Firefox... And 'giving it access to all data from all web pages'... Yeah... I don't think so.

I mean I use an add blocker and no script for that exact reason of avoiding anything malicious. And those data harvesters are just as malicious. As it is explained in this:

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Wandering_Mania

[ghastley]

11 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

We need a Klingon translation program.

Klingon would be difficult, as there is no Unicode representation for it. It was actually considered, but rejected. Cuneiform, however, as well as Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, do have Unicode support.

[donnerwetter]

I just recently had to assist some (presumably) Russian person asking for help in the Nexus comment section of one of my mods and I just copied their posts into Google Translate and they presumably did the same to my English-language replies.

 

It wasn't a huge issue since Google Translate or DeepL are only a click away. I suppose they could've saved me some trouble and just machine translated their own posts to begin with ?‍♂️

Edited October 30, 2022 by donnerwetter

[Psalam]

This is one of the places I really miss Winny257. He was a native German speaker who was on LL for 9 years. He would proudly tell everyone that he spoke not a single word of English. He used various translation mods/sites to translate everything. He was also, until very recently, the most prolific poster on LL.

 

My point is, there really isn't a problem. Why make a solution?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Psalam said:

 

 

My point is, there really isn't a problem. Why make a solution?

> Because, we human beings likes to complicate things. Why simple, when it can be complicated?!

[RitualClarity]

On 10/30/2022 at 3:10 AM, worik said:

*cough*

The galaxy already has an established solution ?No need to rely on earthly science fiction

e

LOL. Love the reference. Unfortunately, that isn't currently available on Earth.

On 10/30/2022 at 1:00 AM, Evaloves4 said:

 

> Agree with you. Blocking users who are speaking in their native language, unless their posts are insulting an offensive is rude and uncultured. I speak English but sometimes, just as my Prince did, I say something else instead of saying what I wanted to say and it puts me in the trouble because some readers gets offended. I am grateful to Ashal and moderators for showing understanding to us, non native English speakers. This is one of the great sides of LL among (sex) subjects and mods.

Blocking someone IMO needs to be done after they done something that is against the rules (not posting in a different language as they might have not been able to understand what was going on even if they did know English. I have experienced this when supporting some people with their mod issue. )  After careful consideration of why, they did something and perhaps, many times doing said violation. Someone can be having a bad day. Many of us have h ad bad days that would qualify for a banning and due to the process of t he site, we  haven't been banned.

On 10/30/2022 at 8:45 AM, Wandering_Mania said:

Oh geez, and here I thought I was the one out of place. What with my still using of Firefox.

 

Well the problem with Steam, is that the rules get 'selectively enforced'. Certain people, like me for one, get targeted. We get 'passive aggressively trolled', 'personally insulted/attacked', and 'goaded into hostile' responses. While every report we send, gets ignored. But the second we say anything 'combative' back, We get instant perma-bans. No warnings, no anything else, just 'boom you are kicked out for wrong think'.

 

I mean I've been banned from Steam hubs for 'appeal PMs', asking simple questions about game changes, talking about game changes that patches made, pointing out broken/unbalanced parts a game, simply correcting 'misinformation', defending myself against false accusations, the list goes on and on. So yeah, there are some serious problems with the rule enforcement on Steam. I mean hell, even their  Global Rules & Guidelines state that "Do not post any content on Steam containing the following: Porn..."; And yet they now allow all those AO games to be posted. And because those rules haven't been updated in probably 20 years, I don't even think that they know what their rules are. But they will link them to you at any given chance saying: 'Follow these rules, but we don't even follow them. Because we're hypocrites!"

 

Any how. Sorry for the rant. But as you can see, I have some serious issues with the way the 'rules' are enforced on the Steam Hubs.

This is your thread you started regardless of the original subject. This was included. Rant is perfectly fine (until a moderator states otherwise )  Based on what you said, I'd say their rules are out of date as early one they didn't have such games. I was shocked when I seen one of those adult games there.  Remember, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Ignore what they are doing and move on to someplace that you like and respects you.

On 10/30/2022 at 12:42 PM, ghastley said:

Klingon would be difficult, as there is no Unicode representation for it. It was actually considered, but rejected. Cuneiform, however, as well as Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, do have Unicode support.

WAY too much thought was put into that translation option. LOL Didn't know that.

 

On 10/30/2022 at 2:02 PM, Psalam said:

This is one of the places I really miss Winny257. He was a native German speaker who was on LL for 9 years. He would proudly tell everyone that he spoke not a single word of English. He used various translation mods/sites to translate everything. He was also, until very recently, the most prolific poster on LL.

 

My point is, there really isn't a problem. Why make a solution?

Winny posted primarily in English. Respecting the forum. Many non native speakers do this. When he did post in his native language from what I recall, it was quite reasonable.

Edited November 1, 2022 by RitualClarity

[Psalam]

6 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

Winny posted primarily in English. Respecting the forum. Many non native speakers do this. When he did post in his native language from what I recall, it was quite reasonable.

My point exactly. He bragged about it and encouraged others to do as he did.

[Mister X]

16 hours ago, Psalam said:

This is one of the places I really miss Winny257. He was a native German speaker who was on LL for 9 years. He would proudly tell everyone that he spoke not a single word of English. He used various translation mods/sites to translate everything. He was also, until very recently, the most prolific poster on LL.

 

My point is, there really isn't a problem. Why make a solution?

 

Oh wow, now that you've mentioned it ... O.O

I'm in the lucky position that, even though German is my native language, I assume my English to be decent enough to be broadly understandable (hopefully ^^). I use translation tools only in the rare cases where I don't know a certain term.

 

Still, I always respected Winny for taking the (low) effort of translating their posts by themselves once, so it doesn't have to be translated hundreds or thousands of times by everyone else. Does somebody know what happened to Winny?

[Psalam]

10 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Does somebody know what happened to Winny?

You might want to look at this:

 

[Wandering_Mania]

8 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

This is your thread you started regardless of the original subject.

Honesty is the best policy, I say. And honestly, it's not my thread. I think naaitsab  is the OP.

8 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

Based on what you said, I'd say their rules are out of date as early one they didn't have such games. I was shocked when I seen one of those adult games there.  Remember, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Ignore what they are doing and move on to someplace that you like and respects you.

Oh they are out of date all right. But Steam refuses to update them, but gladly enforces the new unposted 'woke rule set'. But like I said, that's why I kinda migrated here. At least here I don't get randomly banned for bullshit, or even just using that word.

 

But either way. Some of us don't have translation tools. And most of the ones that are available, either ask for far too much (data harvesting), or are non-existant. And it ain't just the vid above that worries me about the data harvesting. It's also the points included in this:

 

[RitualClarity]

18 hours ago, Wandering_Mania said:

Honesty is the best policy, I say. And honestly, it's not my thread. I think naaitsab  is the OP.

Oh they are out of date all right. But Steam refuses to update them, but gladly enforces the new unposted 'woke rule set'. But like I said, that's why I kinda migrated here. At least here I don't get randomly banned for bullshit, or even just using that word.

 

But either way. Some of us don't have translation tools. And most of the ones that are available, either ask for far too much (data harvesting), or are non-existant. And it ain't just the vid above that worries me about the data harvesting. It's also the points included in this:

 

opps I thought it was your thread.

In any case, I don't see anything wrong with your post.

I've seen way worse post in response (derailing) lol 

 

[Bazinga]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:21 AM, Miauzi said:

 

hinzu kommt aus meiner Sicht ein weiteres Problem

ich hole dazu mal ein bisschen weiter aus:

Ich bin 1962 in "Ost"-Deutschland geboren - habe dort mein Ing.-Studium abgeschlossen und recht aktiv an der "Wende" 1989 mitgewirkt

auf Grund meiner "Affinität" zu Computern kam ich 1989 auf meinen ersten CCC (Chaos-Computer-Congress)

was man mir dort in Sachen "Daten-Fern-Übertragung" und APC gezeigt hatte - motivierte mich recht schnell mich mit diesem Thema zu beschäftigen

technische Hilfe seitens erfahrender "Freaks" bekam ich rasch und so entstand auch eine Erfahrungsaustausch über das technische hinaus

 

eins Sache war schon damals bemerkenswert -> für viele junge User waren deren Beiträge in den Diskussions-Bereichen oft die ihre ersten schriftlichen "Eigenprodukte"!

Wie mit diesen manchmal recht kryptischen "Botschaften" umgehen?

Und man bedenke - wir waren alle in einem gemeinsamen (deutschen) Sprachraum!

Na jedenfalls nicht "niedermachen" - oft ist deren mündliche Kommunikation ähnlich "sparsam" wie ihre schriftliche.

 

und nun der Bogen zu heute...

..offensichtlich sind die Probleme von damals heute immer noch existent - wie ich erst vor wenigen Minuten wieder im Hilfe-Bereich sehen konnte

Eine Frage so zu formulieren das ein anderer (der helfen möchte) auch daraus "schlau" wird ist etwas was man ERLERNEN muss aber auch erlernen kann.

(wo aber Schulen heute noch mehr versagen als damals)

 

und dieser Prozess ist strenggenommen niemals wirklich abgeschlossen - wie ich an mir selbst und meinen eigenen Problemen sehe *ggg*

 

  Reveal hidden contents

there is another problem from my point of view

I'll dig a little further into this:

I was born in "East" Germany in 1962 - I completed my engineering studies there and was actively involved in the "Wende" in 1989

due to my "affinity" to computers I came to my first CCC (Chaos Computer Congress) in 1989

what I was shown there in terms of "long-distance data transmission" and APC - motivated me to deal with this topic very quickly

I quickly got technical help from experienced "freaks" and so there was also an exchange of experiences beyond the technical side

one thing was remarkable even back then -> for many young users, their contributions in the discussion areas were often their first written "own products"!

How to deal with these sometimes quite cryptic "messages"?

And consider - we were all in a common (German) language area!

In any case, don't "put them down" - their verbal communication is often as "thrifty" as their written ones.

and now the arc to today...

..obviously the problems from back then are still there today - as I could see again in the help area just a few minutes ago

To formulate a question in such a way that someone else (who wants to help) can also "make sense" of it is something that you have to LEARN but can also learn.

(where schools fail even more today than they did back then)

and strictly speaking this process is never really finished - as I can see from myself and my own problems *ggg*

 

Ich hab dem nichts hinzuzufügen und wollte eigentlich nur anmerken, dass ich von der automatischen Übersetzung beeindruckt bin. Bei mir ists Chrome; das scheint aber dasselbe Tool zu nutzen wie Firefox, denn die Übersetzung ist identisch.

Und die ist echt gut!

Ich sehe insofern zumindest für deutschsprachige Nutzer kein Problem und wenig Gefahr von Missverständnissen.

 

Ansonsten ... what CPU said.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Bazinga

[Wandering_Mania]

5 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

opps I thought it was your thread.

In any case, I don't see anything wrong with your post.

I've seen way worse post in response (derailing) lol 

Yeah, well, tell that to Steam. Because minor 'natural digressions' can also get one banned. It has once for me.

But then again, I am starting to think that I am targeted by the Steam moderators, and any developer on Steam. It's like I've already failed that 'social credit system', and it hasn't even taken full hold yet. And trust me when I say; Being actively hunted for termination, in a hobby that is all one has in this existence, is not a fun experience.