DD vs. Toys - what's the difference, really?

[belegost]

I've used DD for a long time so I know what it can do, how it works and that mod support for it is huge. However I've also seen many opinions against DD with people disliking it for some reason and being very vocal about it. I've never used Toys but from the first glance it appears that most, if not all devices are similar between both frameworks and it seems that both work in the same way (I think). Mod support aside, what is really the difference between the two, what are the pros and cons of both and why would you use one over the other.

 

I am asking for a relatively objective comparison, if you have a particularly strong bias one way, please try to provide a constructive criticism. I'm currently bulding a new mod profile and am debating whether to go into Toys or stick with DD. Thank you.

Edited August 21, 2022 by belegost

[Pamatronic]

So, you want someone to reiterate everything that's written on toys´s modpage?
Just try reading it yourself. that will likely save you some time and give you a more complete picture. They even have videos if you don't like reading.

[VirginMarie]

I'm bias, just a little bit ? 

 

Nothing says you must pick one over the other.

 

The survey (top of that support forum) says that 72% of users are using both Toys&Love & DD together. That number has been & will continue to gradually reduce.

 

One of the goals was to lighten the load, and provide the option to run without the legacy stack of DD/SLA/Sexlab.... yes that entire stack is not required, but we took great care to make sure it works well with that stack. If that stack is there, we do some integration & play nice.

 

Highlights:

• All in 1.... Bondage... Rousing... & Love Scenes...  Not only a DD alternate, its a DD/SLA/SL alternative
  • This makes for some very tight integration between the 3 areas. Features that work seamlessly. They feel like one
  • In addition it does the functions of SLSO & SLAL... Its really 5 in 1... integrated & simpler. The SLAL-like function is instant
• Faster. Simpler. Stability. Lite.
  • For Bondage, its about doing it better & different. For Love Scenes, its about doing it faster & easier
  • For both Bondage & Love, its about integration & simplicity.... for example Love Scene treatment of toys.... hide or filter or both
• New & different Toys Effects, Transformations, & Escape. Toy Effects include effects that trigger love scenes
  • A mod author can make a toy in a Toy Box, that causes love scenes, without any script
• Toy Boxes - A toy box shares it's toys... all mods using Toys&Love can "see" a Toy Box and use it
  • Toys are registered like Animations. For example, Toyful Temptations never needs to update, to distribute toys from a new Toy Box
• Orgies & Matchmaking for Love Scenes is built-in
  • These are easy for a mod to use
• The concept of Rousing... Fondling... Denial... Oversexed... built into both Bondage & Love
  • There's also Thermal Toys & Overheating if you introduce Survival into your game with HoT&Wet
• The Rousing Bar & Voice-in-my-Head Widget UI
  • You can sync Rousing with Arousal, if you use SLA, thus "see" arousal in your UI
• MUCH easier for a mod author to make Bondage & Love features

I could make a much longer list, but instead, check out these articles...

 

Toys&Love - Features

Toys&Love - Tips

Love Scene FAQs

Mod Authors - Using Toys&Love - Traditional / Soft / Script-less

 

 

 

[belegost]

4 hours ago, Pamatronic said:

So, you want someone to reiterate everything that's written on toys´s modpage?
Just try reading it yourself. that will likely save you some time and give you a more complete picture. They even have videos if you don't like reading.

 

Thank you for you immensely valuable input.

Edited August 21, 2022 by belegost

[belegost]

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

One of the goals was to lighten the load, and provide the option to run without the legacy stack of DD/SLA/Sexlab.... yes that entire stack is not required, but we took great care to make sure it works well with that stack. If that stack is there, we do some integration & play nice.

 

Thanks, but I don't understand this one. Could you elaborate about what that 'stack' is? I kinda get the idea that it's probably less script heavy than DD, but in what areas exactly?

 

  

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

In addition it does the functions of SLSO & SLAL... Its really 5 in 1

 

Does it mean it replaces those two mods? Would mods that require one or the other work with just Toys instead?

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by belegost

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, belegost said:

Thanks, but I don't understand this one. Could you elaborate about what that 'stack' is? I kinda get the idea that it's probably less script heavy than DD, but in what areas exactly?

 

legacy stack of DD/SLA/Sexlab....

• What does it mean? Devious Devices / Sexlab Arousal / Sexlab .... a software stack where DD depends on using SLA and SL. That's all it means. Legacy means "out of date". All mods using DD are actually using that stack.
• Toys&Love replaces the need to have those mods. Even if they are present, its not using them, thus their scripts stay mostly inactive, at least when T&L is doing its things. T&L does its things efficiently because its all integrated, and using the latest tech available, and its written and tested for SE/AE.

I kinda get the idea that it's probably less script heavy than DD, but in what areas exactly?

• You can't compare T&L to DD alone, because T&L is equivalent to that full stack. DD is not. So as I did above, I compare to the 3 mods, not just DD.
• It does not need SLA which is known for its heavy scripts running on all NPCs near you. It does not need SL which is known for its slow scene starts ever since it came to SE. And it does not need DD, which like the other 2, was developed for LE and never really got cleanly ported to SE. They are all legacy software now.
• What does T&L do technically different? Lots of things. Animations are not loaded into Skyrim objects and arrays, it uses the modern JContainers for storage.  T&L is very event driven and multi-threaded (code runs in parallel in small bite sized chunks). A SL scene will run in a thread... T&L does that too but runs its individual parts in mini-threads, so a scene is threads within threads. Bondage features use threads too, for example toy equipping is threaded. Probably getting too technical but you asked, so that's my best answer.

1 hour ago, belegost said:

Does it mean it replaces those two mods?

 

Yes. It replaces 5 Mods..... DD/SLA/SL/SLAL/SLSO

 

1 hour ago, belegost said:

Would mods that require one or the other work with just Toys instead?

 

No. But that's like asking.... does gasoline work in an electric car?  SLSO is patching SL, made only for SL. Its a hack replacing some of SL's code. How can this be useful for Toy&Love which does the SLSO similar features on its own? SLAL, is an animation loader... not needed for T&L because its doing it on it's own. The loading is instant. What IS still useful is SLAL Animation packs which T&L will use without SLAL.

 

Much of this is in more detail, in the links to articles above.

Edited August 21, 2022 by VirginMarie

[Someone92]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:07 PM, VirginMarie said:

In addition it does the functions of SLSO

Can Toys replace SLSO even during SexLab scenes?

[VirginMarie]

2 minutes ago, Someone92 said:

Can Toys replace SLSO even during SexLab scenes?

 

No.

 

It only gives you the denial mechanic during SexLab scenes. That just means you can prevent the multiple orgasms (squirts) and stop Rousing/Arousal from decreasing much. This is mainly so if you use HoT&WeT, your thermal toys keep warming you, and you don't freeze to death. Course if you get oversexed, good luck successfully denying  

[Antiope_Apollonia]

On 8/21/2022 at 11:18 PM, VirginMarie said:

SLAL, is an animation loader... not needed for T&L because its doing it on it's own. The loading is instant. What IS still useful is SLAL Animation packs which T&L will use without SLAL.

You say this like it's a feature, but that's worse.  Basically, you're saying T&L takes away your ability to pick which animations to use from an animation pack.  I can't think of a single SLAL pack where I would want to enable every animation in the pack.

[VirginMarie]

56 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

You say this like it's a feature, but that's worse.  Basically, you're saying T&L takes away your ability to pick which animations to use from an animation pack.  I can't think of a single SLAL pack where I would want to enable every animation in the pack.

 

Toys&Love lets you disable scenes, just like SLAL does.

 

There's just no loading step. Much simpler and faster, but no loss of functionality at all.

 

In fact it helps you with disabling... If you see a scene playing that  you don't like you can go to the MCM and disable the "actively playing scene". No need to go searching for it.

Edited August 23, 2022 by VirginMarie

[Asrienda]

Can T&L provide a dummy esp for SL, SLA, and DD to mock their function calls and translate them to T&L, so other mods will just work with T&L?

[Just Don't]

1 hour ago, Asrienda said:

Can T&L provide a dummy esp for SL, SLA, and DD to mock their function calls and translate them to T&L, so other mods will just work with T&L?

You can do that yourself. Problem is it won't work as intended, even if you workaround requirements with a dummy plugin the other mods will likely expect functions, events and scripts from these other mods.

 

T&L is not a replacement of the aforementioned mods. It's an alternative.

And these aren't "legacy" mods either. They're maintained, supported or even actively being developed even today. The fact that a new framework has been created doesn't make them obsolete. If you consider one being the superior choice go for it, but this kind of discourse is inaccurate.

[VirginMarie]

2 hours ago, Asrienda said:

Can T&L provide a dummy esp for SL, SLA, and DD to mock their function calls and translate them to T&L, so other mods will just work with T&L?

 

SL to Toys&Love Bridge?

Can DD be mapped to Toys&Love?

 

26 minutes ago, Just Don't said:

T&L is not a replacement of the aforementioned mods. It's an alternative.

 

Agreed

 

26 minutes ago, Just Don't said:

And these aren't "legacy" mods either. They're maintained, supported or even actively being developed even today.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

The meaning has nothing to do with if they are maintained, supported or actively being developed. Goggle "Legacy Software" and you shall see the meaning. Almost all software becomes legacy at about 7-10 years of age, unless substantially re-made before that time period is up. Skyrim itself is Legacy Software and releasing SE, then AE has not changed that.

[Tlam99]

If I understand it right, all mods requiring SL do no more work, but it's faster.

 

[belegost]

Wait, wait, I somehow missed that part in all the answers:

 

On 8/21/2022 at 6:07 PM, VirginMarie said:

(...) SL alternative

 

On 8/21/2022 at 11:18 PM, VirginMarie said:

It does not need SL

 

You mean it's a totally alternative framework? Akin to FG, OSA/OSex? Because up until now I thought it's just a DD alternative with extra bells and whistles. Wow, turns out I'm blinder than a hate child of bat and mole and can't totally read in my third language.

 

Uh, okay... since that's a completely different pair of (slave) shoes... any way to make it work with Amorous Adventures?

Edited August 23, 2022 by belegost

[Just Don't]

10 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

The meaning has nothing to do with if they are maintained, supported or actively being developed. Goggle "Legacy Software" and you shall see the meaning.

I'm aware of the term, yet the use you do of it directly refers to it being out of date, which isn't the case when it's still widely used, functional and being updated or even completely re implemented (like the recent OSL Aroused). You also mentioned a direct replacement. That's what I mean when I say it isn't accurate. And it could very well give someone the wrong impression of your mod(s) or the work of other authors. Obviously you can disagree and keep calling this or that however you want.

On 8/21/2022 at 5:18 PM, VirginMarie said:

Legacy means "out of date"

On 8/21/2022 at 5:18 PM, VirginMarie said:

Yes. It replaces 5 Mods..... DD/SLA/SL/SLAL/SLSO

 

 

 

[VirginMarie]

9 hours ago, Tlam99 said:

If I understand it right, all mods requiring SL do no more work, but it's faster.

 

I may not understand what you are saying, but I suspect you are misunderstanding.

If you think it magically works for mods that use SL, that's not the case.

 

But I don't know if that is what you are saying. If you ARE saying that, read this... SL to Toys&Love Bridge?

 

It's not a Sexlab clone.

The Love Scenes start much faster than Sexlab, particularly in SE.

[Tlam99]

3 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

ARE saying that,

I red this link before I wrote this and it says exactly what I wrote.

Work mods depending on SL ? NO

Planned to build bridge ? NO, or not realistic using words there.

 

 

 

[VirginMarie]

7 hours ago, belegost said:

You mean it's a totally alternative framework? Akin to FG, OSA/OSex? Because up until now I thought it's just a DD alternative with extra bells and whistles. Wow, turns out I'm blinder than a hate child of bat and mole and can't totally read in my third language.

• FG - somewhat an alternative to Sexlab. It's not really a framework. Not an alt to a mod that used sexlab beyond very simple scenes. No creatures or group scenes. Mods can do limited things with it. It has no API. And its not at all an alt to DD
• OSA/Osex/Ostim - you need all 3 to compare. Is alternative to Sexlab. Its a framework, but hard to get your mod to do as much as you can do with Sexlab. And its not at all an alt to DD
• Toys&Love is an alternative to DD & Sexlab. Its the first framework to offer Bondage AND Love Scenes AND the other addons many use, all in one. And it uses existing SLAL Animation Packs, so a choice of 1500+ love scenes, out of the gate

7 hours ago, belegost said:

Uh, okay... since that's a completely different pair of (slave) shoes... any way to make it work with Amorous Adventures?

 

The Amorous Adventures author would need to update the mod to support Toys&Love.

[VirginMarie]

8 minutes ago, Just Don't said:

I'm aware of the term, yet the use you do of it directly refers to it being out of date, which isn't the case when it's still widely used, functional and being updated or even completely re implemented (like the recent OSL Aroused). You also mentioned a direct replacement. That's what I mean when I say it isn't accurate. And it could very well give someone the wrong impression of your mod(s) or the work of other authors. 

 

Gotcha. Yes the word replacement is not fitting, I did use "alternative" in my first post here and should have stuck with that.

 

But I do think its important that people realize they can use each of these frameworks together, OR Toys&Love can work stand-alone without them (so replacing their purpose in that sense is true), if the content mods you install use Toys&Love instead of DD/SLA/SL.

 

Content mods can also use much of T&L's features as a soft dependency, so for example, the new FSM (Follower Slavery Mod), can work with either, without requiring either. Toys&Love makes it easy to do Soft Dependency... Mod Authors - Using Toys&Love - Traditional / Soft / Script-less. Updating an existing mod that uses SL, can easily be done by pointing itself to use T&L, without making it a hard requirement.

 

But let me explain it from the point of view of a modder who WAS using DD/SLA/Sexlab...

I worked on Shout Like a Virgin for almost 3 years. It used DD/SLA/Sexlab. Took a break for 2 years. Came back. SLAV was broken all over the place. Why? Several reasons...

1. Sexlab had been overwritten by multiple mods that change its behavior. The behavior I designed and tested for, was no longer there for those installing the mods hacking it, which had become the majority. 
2. DD had released with no way to turn its sexlab filter off. It was now forced on us. And since it did not work with SLaV, and there was no hope of compensating for it, this was a show stopper for using DD. If you really want to know the details on that, I did document it long ago, here (the first section)
3. Both Sexlab and DD did not port to SE in a complete way...
   • For Sexlab this left it very slow to start scenes in SE, particularly with combat love (defeat-like scenarios which SLaVE has) where you need fast paced action. Also it remained in beta for years... it only become not beta when a small update for AE was done (that was really only the papyrusUtil dll, not a sexlab update), so we still have the beta in reality. So really, not actively developed for a half decade, unless you want to count the mods overwriting it. Sexlab is a very impressive innovation and I learned greatly from it, but it's made for LE.
   • For DD, the SE port was not done by the DD team. The author continues to only support LE and does not test it in SE. Its what the lead author states multiple times... I'm not going to get into this in more detail on what the issues, for me, are.... but lets just say... I can't use it in SE at all, and in LE, I can't use it due to the forced filter

So this is what lead to the making of Toys&Love. It was out of necessity. SLaV is now SLaVE, Shout Like a Virgin Evolved. SLaV was legacy in only 5 years. Now SLaVE has been born, using only Toys&Love, and can live on as not legacy for a while.  It would have been hopeless, a fools errand, to try and improve SLaV otherwise. So I did the crazy thing. Will it catch on and become widely used? Time will tell.

[belegost]

16 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

The Amorous Adventures author would need to update the mod to support Toys&Love.

I see. So in other words, it ain't gonna happen. Oh well.

Edited August 24, 2022 by belegost

[BDNelson]

I have "Toys" AND "Devious Devices" installed in my build. Why is there a decision. "this over that", on these FABULOUS mods. I won't ever run Skyrim SE without them, BOTH!!!

[Tlam99]

31 minutes ago, BDNelson said:

Why is there a decision

Your game, your preferences.

 

why decision:

SL attraction, SL TDF, SL EV, ABBA, SL solution, SL beatess, SL SLSO, ABMM, SL, defeat, SL HH, SL trigger, cumshot, TDF rape, SL drain, fall of dragonborn, YPS, SL kidnapped, 

Amouros Adventure, Apropos2, SL SF , just scrolled to 30% of my mods, guess the list would be double as long.

[belegost]

1 hour ago, BDNelson said:

Why is there a decision. "this over that"

 

Scripts and performance. Ever since I discovered DD, my load order has been bloating more and more because of the sheer magnitude of mods that have been created for this environment. And most of them are fucking awesome. I am unable to complete any game now without something breaking several dozen hours into a save file. No, it's not becasue of conflicts, I actually got pretty good at solving those. My PC is just a potato now and it can't take it anymore. No, I can't get a new one.

 

So I am looking for some alternative that would let me keep the core functionality and the cool devices on, but dispense of enormous load on the system. Yes, that would mean I would have to ditch all of the DD mods I'm using. No, I can't decide which ones I want to get rid of, so the only way to actually go with this plan would be the cold turkey method.

That's why I'm enquiring about Toys as an alternative, specifically.

Edited August 24, 2022 by belegost

[BDNelson]

Well, I've been using all of the "Toys" mods and "Devious Devices" and a number of SL mods with Vortex for going on 2 years now. I have 529 mods currently installed, 17,000+ animations in FNIS XXL 7.6. Laura's Bondage Shop+ the voice pack. I constructed my build to be a balance between performance and a lot of fun, sexually. If you have more mods than 500 or 600, like my friend "Bluegunk" (he has over 1000) and your game isn't performing well, maybe you should cut back on the mod load a little. My game works REALLY well and I have over 1800 saves and still going, lvl 40 now too. In Vortex, "Devious Devices" is a patch for FNIS XXL 7.6, because of that, I consider "DD" to be a required mod for FNIS in my build. That info is in the Vortex\Mods\Configure FNIS button menu, at the bottom of the big yellow page. Along with the list of all of the other required patches that you have to check off when installed.

 

I hope you can fix your install order to have both of these mod sets, I do and it's a LOT of fun with a female PC. I have also discovered that you won't know that a mod is failing until you go to activate\use it. Sooo many times I had to adjust my install order to fix it, experimentation is required and lots of it. Good luck!