DD vs. Toys - what's the difference, really?

[VirginMarie]

13 hours ago, belegost said:

 

Scripts and performance. Ever since I discovered DD, my load order has been bloating more and more because of the sheer magnitude of mods that have been created for this environment. And most of them are fucking awesome. I am unable to complete any game now without something breaking several dozen hours into a save file. No, it's not becasue of conflicts, I actually got pretty good at solving those. My PC is just a potato now and it can't take it anymore. No, I can't get a new one.

 

So I am looking for some alternative that would let me keep the core functionality and the cool devices on, but dispense of enormous load on the system. Yes, that would mean I would have to ditch all of the DD mods I'm using. No, I can't decide which ones I want to get rid of, so the only way to actually go with this plan would be the cold turkey method.

That's why I'm enquiring about Toys as an alternative, specifically.

 

Your plan makes sense, and is one of the options Toys&Love was made to  give.

According to the the survey about 28% of users using Toys&Love are doing something like your plan. The number is gradually growing over time.

 

To refine your plan I think you have 3 choices

1. Drop mods that require DD
2. Drop mods that require DD or SLA    <--- you mentioned Amorous Adventures... it only needs SL, so this option would keep it
3. Drop mods that require DD or SLA or Sexlab    <--- the full go cold turkey

SLA is a big contributor to load. Its a very small mod in comparison, but its responsible for heavy script load as it runs scripts on all NPCs near you. Tracking arousal for all NPCs is a bit nuts imo, but this is why its script heavy.

 

IMO the biggest contribution to load, for the 3 is in the same order... DD biggest contributor, SLA comes in 2nd, Sexlab is the least.

 

As an aside: Obviously some see it as... keep them all and use Toys&Love too, but that's not going to help you with the overload problem. The problem is real... I see it in peoples logs constantly. Toys&Love content mods will still get the benefit of the new framework though (faster scene starts / new features)... so there is still some benefit.

 

 

[sila]

Are there any mods similar to defeat or cursed loot for this toys framework?

 

I wouldn't mind reducing the need for aroused, since it is indeed quite script heavy, and faster animation starts would be appreciated... but several of my favorite mods require aroused and DD.

 

 

[belegost]

41 minutes ago, sila said:

Are there any mods similar to defeat (...) for this toys framework?

 

This and maybe some kind of Frostfall-compatible mechanic that SL Survival has - having sex warms you up. Frankly I have SLS in my load order mainly for this single aspect. I can't overstate how important it had become to my games and I don't know of any other mod that does that.

 

And I mean Frostfall specifically, because it is the best one out there, still unbeaten after all those years, nothing else compare to it. I can't imagine playing Skyrim without it, after all we are north and its supposed to be cold. Survival Mode is a shitty, half-assed rip-off made to earn a quick buck and nobody should ever use it.

Edited August 25, 2022 by belegost

[sila]

30 minutes ago, belegost said:

 

This and maybe some kind of Frostfall-compatible mechanic that SL Survival has - having sex warms you up. Frankly I have SLS in my load order mainly for this single aspect. I can't overstate how important it had become to my games and I don't know of any other mod that does that.

 

And I mean Frostfall specifically, because it is the best one out there, still unbeaten after all those years, nothing else compare to it. I can't imagine playing Skyrim without it, after all we are north and its supposed to be cold. Survival Mode is a shitty, half-assed rip-off made to earn a quick buck and nobody should ever use it.

I did see mods that seemed to support frostfall:

I have not seen anything to replace defeat though, and that requires aroused... maybe there are other sexlab defeat mods I can look at but the essential tag from defeat is one of my favorite parts of it.

[VirginMarie]

7 hours ago, sila said:

Are there any mods similar to defeat or cursed loot for this toys framework?

 

Toyful Temptations does the essential part of Cursed Loot, and is very very lite. Requires nothing but T&L. 

 

Re. Defeat... Shout Like a Virgin Evolved has 2 features giving you combat love....

• If you are defeated, Nocturnal saves your ass by having you love yourself back to life... This can cause orgies too. A mini-defeat function
• The Love Shout lets you love your enemies to death A huge orgy-fest. An opposite-defeat-mod feature as you are the dom, using your orgasm to harm. A simultaneous orgasm will double harm

I'm not saying SLaVE does the full function of a defeat mod, but it comes close, and does not require DD/Sexlab etc.

 

 

Yamete Kudasai is a very new defeat mod that requires nothing at all (all soft dep). I've not tried it yet, but suspect the author will add in Toys&Love support if people starting showing demand for it, as its the same author who made Toyful Temptations.

 

 

7 hours ago, belegost said:

This and maybe some kind of Frostfall-compatible mechanic that SL Survival has - having sex warms you up. Frankly I have SLS in my load order mainly for this single aspect. I can't overstate how important it had become to my games and I don't know of any other mod that does that.

 

And I mean Frostfall specifically, because it is the best one out there, still unbeaten after all those years, nothing else compare to it. I can't imagine playing Skyrim without it, after all we are north and its supposed to be cold. Survival Mode is a shitty, half-assed rip-off made to earn a quick buck and nobody should ever use it.

 

As mentioned above, there's HoT&WeT, dedicated to exactly this. Thermal toys are built into Toys&Love and HoT&WeT turns on the warming triggered from orgasms and thermal toys that operate if your Rousing is high enough. This is a Frostfall-only mod. 

 

HoT&WeT is essentially an extension to Toy&Love to enable thermal toys and overheating. Makes it optional, so you can install Toy&Love without Frostfall. Plus HoT&WeT does give you a quest to "teach" and have some fun. You can earn the ability to conjure up thermal toys and food that rise up out of the campfire.

 

All the mods we know to use/support Toy&Love are listed and linked here... Toys Family of Mods

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by VirginMarie

[sila]

2 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

 

Toyful Temptations does the essential part of Cursed Loot, and is very very lite. Requires nothing but T&L. 

 

Re. Defeat... Shout Like a Virgin Evolved has 2 features giving you combat love....

• If you are defeated, Nocturnal saves your ass by having you love yourself back to life... This can cause orgies too. A mini-defeat function
• The Love Shout lets you love your enemies to death A huge orgy-fest. An opposite-defeat-mod feature as you are the dom, using your orgasm to harm. A simultaneous orgasm will double harm

I'm not saying SLaVE does the full function of a defeat mod, but it comes close, and does not require DD/Sexlab etc.

 

 

Yamete Kudasai is a very new defeat mod that requires nothing at all (all soft dep). I've not tried it yet, but suspect the author will add in Toys&Love support if people starting showing demand for it, as its the same author who made Toyful Temptations.

 

 

 

As mentioned above, there's HoT&WeT, dedicated to exactly this. Thermal toys are built into Toys&Love and HoT&WeT turns on the warming triggered from orgasms and thermal toys that operate if your Rousing is high enough. This is a Frostfall-only mod. 

 

HoT&WeT is essentially an extension to Toy&Love to enable thermal toys and overheating. Makes it optional, so you can install Toy&Love without Frostfall. Plus HoT&WeT does give you a quest to "teach" and have some fun. You can earn the ability to conjure up thermal toys and food that rise up out of the campfire.

 

All the mods we know to use/support Toy&Love are listed and linked here... Toys Family of Mods

 

You have given me quite a bit to think about, and may end up completely changing my adult mod lineup because of it.

 

I think for now I will just play the game as is but... I will certainly look into these alternatives in the future.

[belegost]

6 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

All the mods we know to use/support Toy&Love are listed and linked here... Toys Family of Mods

 

What is the default body for Toys? I can see BHUNP conversions but I don't use it. Does it support 3BA? I can't see it mentioned on this page.

[VirginMarie]

24 minutes ago, belegost said:

 

What is the default body for Toys? I can see BHUNP conversions but I don't use it. Does it support 3BA? I can't see it mentioned on this page.

 

The page you are looking at is good for finding the mods,  but each will need that you read Install instructions on their individual Download pages.

 

Gonna be critical that you use this section on the Toys&Love download page... Toys&Love SE

 

[belegost]

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

 

The page you are looking at is good for finding the mods,  but each will need that you read Install instructions on their individual Download pages.

 

Gonna be critical that you use this section on the Toys&Love download page... Toys&Love SE

 

 

Simple "yes" would've been enough.

[pinkfluf]

Hi

 

If I ditch SLA, SLAM (aroused monitor) and use Toys how would I get npc/followers to use "roused" states in toys framework? For example aroused followers may ask the follower for nookie/dance seductively or an npc may approach the follower for sex if he/she is wearing whore clothing (keywords) etc. thankls

 

16 hours ago, sila said:

I have not seen anything to replace defeat though, and that requires aroused... maybe there are other sexlab defeat mods I can look at but the essential tag from defeat is one of my favorite parts of it.

The new SE version of Yametai Kudsai may be up your alley (AE version is buggy atm).

 

I run SM Essential & the old yamete 4.3.1.

[sila]

11 minutes ago, pinkfluf said:

Hi

 

If I ditch SLA, SLAM (aroused monitor) and use Toys how would I get npc/followers to use "roused" states in toys framework? For example aroused followers may ask the follower for nookie/dance seductively or an npc may approach the follower for sex if he/she is wearing whore clothing (keywords) etc. thankls

 

The new SE version of Yametai Kudsai may be up your alley (AE version is buggy atm).

 

I run SM Essential & the old yamete 4.3.1.

Ah well I am on AE so... yeah.

[VirginMarie]

14 hours ago, pinkfluf said:

If I ditch SLA, SLAM (aroused monitor) and use Toys how would I get npc/followers to use "roused" states in toys framework? For example aroused followers may ask the follower for nookie/dance seductively or an npc may approach the follower for sex if he/she is wearing whore clothing (keywords) etc. thankls

 

Short answer

You don't. Toys&Love Rousing is player only.

 

Long answer

SLA and its clones (I don't know anything about SLAM), are well known for being script heavy, as its running script on every NPC near you, tracking arousal for every NPC. Since Toys&Love is, in part, about solving over-load, we are not going to replicate that bad idea.

 

IMO, its overkill. No users would notice the difference, if you just randomize the NPC arousal level, which you can do very simply without a mod telling you their arousal.

 

Since there's starting to be some demand for it, we might add "Follower Only Rousing", so then its only tracking a max of 5 followers. 

[pinkfluf]

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

(I don't know anything about SLAM

Ah Slam is an arousal monitor that checks SLA.

Is it possible to mix animations with toys? There's some animation packs that I'd like to mix different stages in a scene i.e.

 

NPC is screwing Player in an animation (lets say stage 2-3 of abc animation)

Then another npc joins in on the fun after above stage ends (stage 2 of xyz animation)

 

thanks

[VirginMarie]

57 minutes ago, pinkfluf said:

Ah Slam is an arousal monitor that checks SLA.

Is it possible to mix animations with toys? There's some animation packs that I'd like to mix different stages in a scene i.e.

 

NPC is screwing Player in an animation (lets say stage 2-3 of abc animation)

Then another npc joins in on the fun after above stage ends (stage 2 of xyz animation)

 

thanks

 

If you make a new SLAL Animation Pack... which is essentially a collection of individual animations, along with a json file that defines the scenes... this could mix the animations into new hybrid scenes... then Toys&Love could play it.

[belegost]

On 8/24/2022 at 1:51 PM, BDNelson said:

I have 529 mods currently installed, 17,000+ animations in FNIS XXL

You underestimate the potatoness of my PC. I built it in 2012. It can't run that setup.

 

On 8/24/2022 at 1:51 PM, BDNelson said:

If you have more mods than 500 or 600,

I do. In my wet dreams.

Edited December 20, 2022 by belegost

[WaterRabbit]

So having played around with "Toys" mods for a bit, I seems to be the difference between "Toys" and "DD" is a philosophical one more than a technical one.

So the premise for DD is that the player is trapped in a device that prevents sexual release.  Angrim's Apprentice is an example of a mod that uses that mechanic.  While the player is bound, they are prevented from release.

 

The premise for Toys seems to be a female masturbation simulator.  The toys do not prevent the character from having sex (singly or with partners).  It is strange that chastity belts, for example, do not prevent vaginal sex animations (they just block the effect of it?).  Events of the character self-indulging occur too frequently and there is little in the way to reduce arousal (rousing as it is called in toys).  In numerous instances while playing, the character will have a spontaneous event three to four times in a row -- literally unable to take more than a step before another one hits.  In almost 30 hours of play, the character has around 320 fondle events (which raise arousal) and 93 climax events -- most of which were consecutive masturbation events.

 

The mini-game for controlling partner arousal / character denial is not very intuitive.  The UI prompts (if any) are so subtle they I was never able to achieve a simultaneous event and only one partner climax during play -- mostly because the animation would end before the  partner arousal bar would fill.  (As an aside, setting the fondle key to be the left Alt key by default is a strange choice since that is the run key in Skyrim, so every time the character runs she fondles herself.)  For most of the game, it seemed that character arousal was just random.  I finally had to install SLAM just to get an idea what the values were.  I could never get the character arousal below 50 and most of the time it stayed pegged at 100 regardless of how many gratification events the character experienced.  Personally I found the mechanics of arousal muddy at best and counterintuitive at worst.

When using DCL in the past I would turn off trapped corpses since it makes little sense the opponent you just killed would all of a sudden be trapped.  Toyful Temptations has a similar mechanic, but it doesn't actually work as most of the toys the character received were from corpses despite excluding them in the MCM.  Also DCL has much more granular options for getting trapped in comparison.  The main problem with DCL is that it tries to combine too many ideas into one module.  IMHO, it should have been broken into at least 3 different modules.  That would allow the player more flexibility in how they configure their game.  When I start a new game, it takes at least 10 minutes to go through all of the MCM settings for DCL.

Technically, I didn't find too many glitches with the Toys framework that could not be attributed to Skyrim itself (playing on build 640 with all of the AE content).  It played a huge variety of SLAL animations -- much more than SexLab typically does.  It is much better at moving the scene to an appropriate place based on the animation (i.e., against the wall scenes generally occur against a wall instead of the middle of a room or other open area).

I would also like to see it better integrated with a defeat style mechanic, which, for now, requires loading a defeat mod with all of the old prerequisites this mod is trying to abandoned.  I would also like to see a better visual clues integrated into the UI.  The mod Thief has some excellent minigame with great visual clues.  So good in fact I would like to see a struggle mechanic based on them in either Toys or DD.

[VirginMarie]

20 minutes ago, WaterRabbit said:

The toys do not prevent the character from having sex (singly or with partners).  It is strange that chastity belts, for example, do not prevent vaginal sex animations (they just block the effect of it?).

 

You have choices, in the MCM - Love tab - Inappropriate Toy Treatment - Exclude is prevent, phasing is hiding the toy, and by default its doing both. You can set it to behave like DD.

 

20 minutes ago, WaterRabbit said:

Events of the character self-indulging occur too frequently and there is little in the way to reduce arousal (rousing as it is called in toys).  In numerous instances while playing, the character will have a spontaneous event three to four times in a row -- literally unable to take more than a step before another one hits.  In almost 30 hours of play, the character has around 320 fondle events (which raise arousal) and 93 climax events -- most of which were consecutive masturbation events.

 

What you are describing is not normal and unintended. I suspect you have Rousing Synced with Arousal, and it's the arousal from other mods that's overdoing it. Can change all of this in the MCM.

 

20 minutes ago, WaterRabbit said:

The mini-game for controlling partner arousal / character denial is not very intuitive.

 

Have you read this? Simultaneous Orgasm? (updated with hints)

 

20 minutes ago, WaterRabbit said:

As an aside, setting the fondle key to be the left Alt key by default is a strange choice since that is the run key in Skyrim, so every time the character runs she fondles herself

 

I thought everyone set run to auto (instead of walking by default), and thus the run key is never used.

You can change the Toys&Love hotkeys so should not need to be a problem.

 

20 minutes ago, WaterRabbit said:

I could never get the character arousal below 50 and most of the time it stayed pegged at 100

 

Not normal. Try not syncing Rousing with Arousal.

 

20 minutes ago, WaterRabbit said:

It played a huge variety of SLAL animations -- much more than SexLab typically does.  It is much better at moving the scene to an appropriate place based on the animation (i.e., against the wall scenes generally occur against a wall instead of the middle of a room or other open area).

 

Glad you like the new Furniture Love feature  

[Pliny The Elder]

4 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Not normal. Try not syncing Rousing with Arousal.

I've experienced this. For me, it was because I not only had it synced with arousal but I also had whorecrux and slso installed. It can be a ridiculous combo with the default mod settings.

[WaterRabbit]

 

23 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Have you read this? Simultaneous Orgasm? (updated with hints)

 

 

Yes, it didn't provide much illumination. It would be better if the UI would provide clues needed instead of having to reference an external document.
 

23 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

I thought everyone set run to auto (instead of walking by default), and thus the run key is never used.

You can change the Toys&Love hotkeys so should not need to be a problem.

 

The Left Alt key by default will toggle on Sprinting which consumes stamina.  In LE one had to hold the Left Alt key; in SE it is just a toggle.  In either case it seems to be an odd choice to pick a key that conflicts with default Skyrim functions.  This key also controls horse sprinting as well.

 

The Shift determines run/walk behavior and the Caps Lock toggles Auto-Run (which can be annoying if hit accidentally).  The Shift key is useful during Walk and Talk scenes to maintain pace with NPCs. 

 

[belegost]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:12 PM, WaterRabbit said:

The Left Alt key by default will toggle on Sprinting which consumes stamina.  In LE one had to hold the Left Alt key; in SE it is just a toggle.  In either case it seems to be an odd choice to pick a key that conflicts with default Skyrim functions.  This key also controls horse sprinting as well.

 

The Shift determines run/walk behavior and the Caps Lock toggles Auto-Run (which can be annoying if hit accidentally).  The Shift key is useful during Walk and Talk scenes to maintain pace with NPCs. 

 

I personally reverse those keys. Shift has always been the sprint key for me since the days of Wolfenstein 3D. And then I never use alt, just CapsLock whenever I want to walk.

 

On 1/5/2023 at 7:12 PM, VirginMarie said:

I thought everyone set run to auto (instead of walking by default), and thus the run key is never used.

Setting a mod toggle to a key used by the game as one of the defaults is a bad practice and should never be done. You can't "assume" something's not being used just because you personally don't use it.

Edited January 9, 2023 by belegost

[AdlezEluryh]

I know I'm super late to this party, but I only just now discovered this (set of) mod(s) and I have to ask:

 

Toys&Love does (basically) what DD does, but doesn't require SexLab, at all? Meaning I could (if I was inclined to begin a new game), uninstall SexLab, Devious Devices, and Deviously Cursed Loot and simply use T&L instead? Making it easier to use OStim Standalone & Amourous Adventures?

And does it work with Nemsis?

I ask because these mods being available on Nexus Mods means I can include them in my collection(s) without doing the link to external site stuff & would absolutely love to just "plug in and play" with the https://next.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/collections/ri3byq?tab=mods collection.

And using DD has been more... cumbersome than I remember. Not sure when it happened but DD seems to be interfering with animated traversal, turning the "climb the ladder", "squeeze between rocks", etc animations all into "open this heavy object" animation. I also haven't been able to get the actors to use the DD equipment related animations (or even find them), even though Nemesis tells me they're all loaded.

And I'm looking to create a slimmer modlist, something easier to manage when things go wrong.

 

P.S

I found this before finding the mod or its page and details, and got excited so I made this post before looking at the mod itself, so I'm sorry in advance for all the answers to  questions I'm about to read for myself.

[Zaflis]

On 5/9/2024 at 6:01 AM, AdlezEluryh said:

Toys&Love does (basically) what DD does,

It is not a replacement for mods that require Devious Devices. For example a mod like Laura's Bondage shop does not work with Toys at all, unless someone makes a full conversion which would be a ton of work i bet. Neither can you use it with mods that require SexLab without having it.

 

Other than that a lot has changed indeed in DD scene when it comes to DD-NG and also SLAroused replaced by much faster OSL Aroused. You will need Skyrim AE though and latest versions are only in Discord.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Zaflis