Visio Diaboli Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) UPDATE: Prototype available for testing (do not add to LO permanently yet): Inversion of Power v0.0.1.zip --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm on hiatus from Public Whore at the moment but I recently decided that there's another mod that I want to exist. A lot of the time, the characters I play, or want to play, do not take on a 'main character' role in any conventional sense. They end up taking commands from an NPC, or enslaved, or as a support role in combat. And yet when it comes to the decision making, I, as the player, am still the one in charge - followers that should be commandeering end up following my character's lead. This partially destroys the illusion of authority that these NPCs have. So what I would like to create is a framework allowing an NPC to assume objectives of their own, and then proceed to lead the way towards them, letting the player follow along as their own followers ordinarily would, occasionally receiving specific orders. Whether/how this would include sexual content, I haven't decided yet - I've put this in the adult request&find because my intent is to include it in some way eventually, but likely as an adjunct mod. I've been tweaking a prototype I made of such a mod - so far the follower can be asked to take the lead, then will guide the player to a dungeon, and maybe clear it. When it works, it for sure feels like the player/follower roles have been reversed. When it doesn't work, however, I end up watching my follower walk into a 1-foot-tall rock for 3 minutes. Skyrim's AI is wonky at best, and so in order to have it resemble any form of intelligence I will need help. This means people willing to test out dungeons for complete feasibility or infeasibility, and assess the ones that are somewhere in between. Advice from people who work with behavior packages frequently would help too, as well as from anyone who understands how packages work at a Creation Engine level. I wouldn't post if I thought this was impossible, as I like to think that, from what I've seen, there's some potential for engaging gameplay with this. If you'd like to help test locations, or have any suggestions from a technical standpoint, let me know. I can't promise it'll get fully developed so for now consider this in 'research/experimentation'. Edited March 26, 2022 by Visio Diaboli 18
Pamatronic Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 57 minutes ago, Visio Diaboli said: Skyrim's AI is wonky at best, and so in order to have it resemble any form of intelligence I will need help. a fuckin Miracle is what you will need here... But seriously, from what I could gather by using ai packages in my own mods, I can tell you this: You´ll become suicidal if you give this a serious go. If you take my bad ends mods for Riften and Windhelm for example: Even for those very short and pre-defined paths, the reliably manages to get stuck at corners. I had to place some additional guards at these corners, because apparently the ai can reliably avoid other NPC´s. And even if they don't get stuck at corners, there´s always a random chance for them to bug out when switching packages. This will eventually resolve itself and they will continue their tasks, but it might take a few seconds. even using evaluatePackage() doesnt seem to remedy this. Another observation on this: using alias.forceRefTo() on an NPC or a package target seems to make this issue more frequent ( as noted on the CK-wiki). I therefore use an individual ai-package for every single action. you see where this is going for a large mod... As you said, its not impossible, but in order for this to work reliably, you´d have to carefully craft a set of ai-packages for every single dungeon you want this to work with. as well as making some adjustments to the dungeons itself. This would indeed be ... ambitious. 3
Visio Diaboli Posted March 16, 2022 Author Posted March 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Pamatronic said: a fuckin Miracle is what you will need here... Yea it hasn't been smooth to get it to even where it is right now. I have a small ray of hope in that there's a very special subcategory of dungeons that have one cell, no puzzles, and no locked doors. I want to 'whitelist' these, and probably treat them as a minimum viable product, because I can pretty often get the NPC to walk in, kill the boss, and carry on. However about as often there's a locked door where you have to kill someone to get the key, or a blade trap, or a pit you have to jump down. Not even going to try to make those ones work so I'm adding a blacklist keyword to them. Then I imagine there are a few somewhere in the middle, where an NPC could realistically be made to solve them but not trivially, theyd have to be dressed up manually in markers and keywords and logic. My thought was with a checkpoint system of action 1, action 2, kill boss, done, whether that be pulling a lever or navigating to a specific point to position the NPC better. The getting stuck thing is a work in progress though. They often either get stuck on something ridiculous or just zone out for like 25 seconds. Not sure if a periodic update or teleport back to the player would help that or what.
donttouchmethere Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Visio Diaboli said: So what I would like to create is a framework allowing an NPC to assume objectives of their own, and then proceed to lead the way towards them, letting the player follow along as their own followers ordinarily would, occasionally receiving specific orders. Whether/how this would include sexual content, I haven't decided yet - I've put this in the adult request&find because my intent is to include it in some way eventually, but likely as an adjunct mod. Before you try any of that play mods that offer something like that to get a feeling for the pain you are about to inflict on yourself: POP => Bounty Hunter using a leash to bring the player to a certain prison... and watch them get stuck anywhere (gets worse with mods that overhaul places) SCB => beasts that catch the PC and force the PC to the next ZAP furniture or SS++ or other destinations => without the help for the player this might or might not happen (although I'm impressed how often it works) SD => for a long time it had a leash system to force the PC around. This often ended in SD Masters that couldn't find their way around. DFW/DFWS => Leash game again, although the NPC where able to find their destination if close by it became a pain to watch if they got stuck From all those listed SCB has the best approach. PC can get control for times the AI gets stuck finding the way. Means a combination of NPC control and PC control is much better to overcome the AI shortcomings and to prevent compatibility issues. The time window should not be too short for the PC to intervene so stuck path finding/AI issue can be resolved. Best alternative way would be to punish the PC for either not following the NPC or PC not going to the right destination. SD+ does that now, but the last time I tried it, it spammed the screen full of messages and the punishment for not doing as told isn't really clear. I think the biggest punishment for me would be that the AI takes over control, to prevent this I would do whatever the NPC says. No better punishment than stuck scenes/glitches/nothing happens at all. There was another idea I had for a while after playing with SLTR + SLTR extension. The extension does a really good job with path-finding. Even in crowed cities and taverns. If something gets stuck it just teleports the NPC and PC to the destination for the next scene. Other mods offer this solution via debug MCM, which always kills the mood. My idea: Forced following of NPC is awesome. I like to see them have control too. Traveling long distances with the NPC is great too. As it is there are two choices: debug and teleport or hope the scene plays out. I'm for the middle way. To prevent to lose the whole travel scene if something gets stuck: set markers the NPC can teleport to if the AI needs too long to find a way. Lets say there is a forced move from A to B. Instead of teleporting all the way to B (thus loosing the travel scene), set markers to teleport to and give the NPC an new chance to find a route. Like that there is still a travel scene but broken nav mesh or confused AI can be circumvented. To make it short: SCB has the best approach/solution to the AI travel issue so far, by allowing the PC to help out if needed. SD's punishing the PC for not following the rules is a great concept but the realization ingame is painful to watch (pain in a bad way lol). SLTR extension's NPC path finding works great on short distances and gets smoothly supported by a short teleport if something takes too long SLTR does the punishment right if it comes to unruly PCs Taking away too much PC control also gets boring, because it will make the scene not interactive anymore (POP), thus gets old fast (boring). The PC should at least have some hope or illusion to control the situation from time to time, even if it means to be forced to do the NPC bidding anyways with the ASWD keys lol ADDENDUM: for long distance travel it's a good idea to calm everything by adding factions to PC/NPC to prevent constant attacks. Good examples how to do that is SD+ => I don't know how, but DBF managed to clam everything on enslavement, even custom mod added "things" Naked Dungeons => calms everything if player is naked and unarmed => @Corsec made some great patches for it and knows the calming secrets. EDIT: I guess I missed the point here lol Edited March 17, 2022 by donttouchmethere 2
Hex Bolt Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Visio Diaboli said: When it doesn't work, however, I end up watching my follower walk into a 1-foot-tall rock for 3 minutes. This sort of thing has mostly killed my desire to ever follow an NPC. It would be great, if it worked, but too often it goes off the rails. A few years back, I had a mod that made my character follow a bounty hunter from Morthal to Whiterun. The NPC decided to cut through Labyrinthian. The rough terrain and ragged steps defeated his attempts to make progress. Shoving him wasn't sufficient. I resorted to running ahead and using "moveto" in the console to get him past rough spots. Not only did it completely ruin any immersion, I was effectively leading him. The next problem was the trolls. He should have been smart enough not to shortcut through a dangerous area (this can occur with bandit camps, too, particularly with mods that add more of them, or giant camps, and so on). The NPC was essential, but when he went into bleedout the trolls came for the PC, and Defeat triggered. I had to keep saving & loading to get through there. It wasn't fun. If instead the PC had been made to lead, I'd have taken a longer but safer route. Even if a system were scripted to avoid all known danger areas in the base game, it wouldn't be aware of locations added by mods or Creation Club content. Being led straight into obvious, avoidable danger, and then watching the "leader" predictably get flattened, dispels any belief that there's intelligence behind that character's actions. 2 hours ago, Visio Diaboli said: I would like to create is a framework allowing an NPC to assume objectives of their own This would be most fun and believable if the NPC were to have an end goal, such as becoming thane of a city or winning the civil war, and then pursue objectives to that end. Traveling to random dungeons would be okay for a while, but eventually the randomness of it would likely undermine the illusion that anything more than RNG is driving these decisions. Of course, building intelligence into the NPC's decisions is not trivial. This would probably more resemble a quest line, possibly sprinkled with a few radiant quests between major objectives on the path to the end goal. I'm just noting some significant difficulties with something this ambitious. The challenges are large. Edited March 16, 2022 by HexBolt8 3
Visio Diaboli Posted March 17, 2022 Author Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) @donttouchmethere Making the player AI controlled to punish them with jankiness is an interesting take lol. I'd like to avoid it as part of regular play, one of my first "fuck it never mind" moments with PW was trying to get the player to walk up a staircase automatically. With regard to AI-controlling the player, the main thing I'd like to be able to do is what PSE did in Oblivion - you could walk around your master for a certain radius, but leave that radius and your character would march themselves back. But I think Skyrim might fuck with that, and ultimately with this mod the player would be choosing to be a follower and not under duress or anything that would force them to act. Maybe some kind of function to advance the journey would help it, like you said. Like when an NPC gets stuck and you wait an hour and then they blip halfway to the objective. I'm sure there's some way to do that and bring the player along, just don't know how yet. @HexBolt8 Things like Labyrinthian are going to be a serious pain in the ass because not only is it a perfect storm for NPC AI, but also a shortcut through a mountain range... If the objective became to clear Labyrinthian when it drew closer that would be another thing I suppose, but if that's just not mathematically feasible then intervention needs to be possible. I already know for certain I'll need a "Hold up, I know a better way there" type of dialogue that gets the player to lead again temporarily. Whether that breaks the effect I'm not sure yet. A quest line could be good, I just hate how long I think it would take. If I can get the mod to work for random dungeons a few times in a row consistently maybe I'll look at something bigger. Or very likely also is the possibility I scrap the thing after hitting some unsolvable problem. Mostly figured it was worth the long-shot of a try. Edited March 17, 2022 by Visio Diaboli
donttouchmethere Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, Visio Diaboli said: Maybe some kind of function to advance the journey would help it, like you said. Like when an NPC gets stuck and you wait an hour and then they blip halfway to the objective. I'm sure there's some way to do that and bring the player along, just don't know how yet. Maybe a dialogue? Something like "talking your way out" just literally lol If the PC sees that the NPC has problems the PC could ask to lead the way for a while, until the NPC takes over again. That's like me in a foreign city. Never ask for the way, rather run in circles until I give up and start intensively to ask for the way. Wait... that would be an interesting idea too. Instead of the PC asking or the NPC teleporting, why not let the NPC make a force greet and ask the PC to lead the way for a short while. Make conversation, not war teleport! 1
Seijin8 Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Visio Diaboli said: so I'm adding a blacklist keyword to them Would recommend formlists instead of directly modifying cell or location records. Has the added benefit of not getting overwritten by load order. 3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: He should have been smart enough not to shortcut through a dangerous area Packages set as "use preferred path" should avoid most of this. Visio: Something you could try to do is create a quest that periodically checks the distance between the dungeon boss or exit door and the NPC. Checking every ten seconds, if it finds the NPC is not moving, is not in combat or otherwise occupied (is using the expected AI package), then it triggers a few things: A dialogue line such as "now, where do you think the treasure is?", "where would I hide treasure in here?", etc to make their passivity "seem" meaningful A script spawns three tiny, invisible & uninteractable NPCs in a shotgun pattern between the NPC and the target area (boss/exit) Forces a short-duration AI package switch to the leader NPC into a "follow" type package on the invisible NPCs to "un-stick" them. The test function runs again and if it finds the NPC still stuck, rotates to another target with a dialogue of "hmmmm..." and maybe a forced idle animation of study/thinking The PC gets a dialogue option to say "maybe this way?" which sets them as the follow target for a little while. If the system detects the distances changing again, it disables the invisible NPCs until they're needed again -- would probably want to constantly re-use the same 3 essential invisible NPCs, give them SexlabForbid keyword, etc to make sure nothing "spots" them, and that you aren't leaving hordes of invisible NPCs around. Ultimately, you can't hide how solidly shit the AI pathfinding in this game is, but you might be able to make it seem a little more natural and give it an assist every now and again. I doubt this can be done convincingly, but I am prepared to be amazed by the result Edited March 17, 2022 by Seijin8 Slightly improved explaininating 3
Visio Diaboli Posted March 17, 2022 Author Posted March 17, 2022 12 hours ago, Seijin8 said: A script spawns three tiny, invisible & uninteractable NPCs in a shotgun pattern between the NPC and the target area (boss/exit) That's a pretty good idea, as my followers never seem to get stuck while following me, only when I try to get them to do their own thing. Kind of wonder if adding a follow package targetting the dungeon boss would achieve desirable results. I guess the interval for how long it should take to be considered stuck is hard to nail. I might have to have a script on an update period of like 1 second to really avoid it. I was also wondering about turning off the actor's collision temporarily could work. It worked decently to 'tcl' the actor when it got stuck for like 2 seconds - they'd walk through the obstacle but anything longer and they started floating off into the sky. But if this gets them stuck in a wall even 1/10th of the time it probably isnt worth it. Also formlists is probably a good idea. Just need to learn how to use them now ? 1
donttouchmethere Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 12 hours ago, Seijin8 said: A script spawns three tiny, invisible & uninteractable NPCs in a shotgun pattern between the NPC and the target area (boss/exit) What the... ?
Seijin8 Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 5 hours ago, Visio Diaboli said: Also formlists is probably a good idea. Just need to learn how to use them now ? Just add the locations to a "whitelist" formlist and have the quest that triggers all of this only choose from the listed locations, or the script for the quest test against those locations. A few different ways you could get that to work. 5 hours ago, donttouchmethere said: What the... ? Invisible bunnies (would automatically run from you) using a MoveTo() command with the maths figured out based on position. Sounds crazier than it is. There was a "douse dungeon lights" mod that did this with invisible skeevers. Thought it was an imaginative solution. 3
Darkwing241 Posted March 18, 2022 Posted March 18, 2022 On 3/16/2022 at 5:42 PM, Visio Diaboli said: So what I would like to create is a framework allowing an NPC to assume objectives of their own, and then proceed to lead the way towards them, letting the player follow along as their own followers ordinarily would, occasionally receiving specific orders. Whether/how this would include sexual content, I haven't decided yet - I've put this in the adult request&find because my intent is to include it in some way eventually, but likely as an adjunct mod. This was on the menu for Devious Followers, but never got made. DF did some great things with making the follower feel empowered, but was limited a bit by the core framework of its debt/deal system. Is it the gameplay loop of literally following after the follower you are looking for? My recommendation would be to just avoid the AI pathing system. As far as I know 'follow the NPC' is not typically considered to be a 'fun game' at least based on my experiences and that of the average front page reddit posters review of follow quests. That doesn't mean bossy followers couldn't be fun though. I also know that dom followers, depowered heroines and NPCification are kinky as fuck. I would likely love this mod however it turns out. What about a more narrative approach? Lupine00 pitched an idea for a "glass ceiling" mod that was about a NPC taking credit for all of the PC's achievements. You could just build an alternative main quest narrative mechanically similar to a normal Skyrim quest but rescripted to make the follower into the hero. Alternatively you could just develop some sort of punishment/reward system, and then have the follower assign quest locations to you, that along with a timer and maybe some dialogue could certainly give the feeling of being a follower. Maybe even allow the follower to block other quest progression/activities until you complete their priority? 2
Visio Diaboli Posted March 18, 2022 Author Posted March 18, 2022 @Darkwing241 Ultimately I think if I can't get literally following the NPC to be fun most of the time, I won't try and develop the mod further. I'd also like Lupine's glass ceiling concept to be built into something, but it's marginally different than what I'd like to make myself. I think when a follower is giving orders and punishments, but still letting the PC lead the charge into most places, it allows something to be said of the power that the PC has, that they must know the most about combat and dungeoneering and such. Possibly trivial to some but I think I'd rather the gameplay loop itself be made to match the player's experience as a subservient as closely as possible. I also think this would be needed for a 'healslut' type of playthrough, the viability of which is another of my objectives with Skyrim. In practice, having to lead the follower into combat, then run back behind the follower, pray they take aggro, then do my job killed the entire fun of that type of combat for me lol. I suppose if working with the pathing turns out entirely fruitless then I could have the follower set objectives and punishments for not meeting them, but it isn't really my first choice, and as of now is less likely to get worked towards.
Hex Bolt Posted March 18, 2022 Posted March 18, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Visio Diaboli said: I think when a follower is giving orders and punishments, but still letting the PC lead the charge into most places, it allows something to be said of the power that the PC has, that they must know the most about combat and dungeoneering and such. This topic has come up in other dominant follower discussions. The explanation for the PC in front is that dom is functioning like a general, with expendable troops in front. The PC can set off traps and trigger ambushes, then the expert will step in and take over. Like those troops, you don't have any choice about where you're going; you're just following orders under the watchful eye of your overlord. Assuming a sexual relationship, the follower probably likes the view from behind, especially if the PC is made to wear revealing outfits, since you're not expected to contribute much to a real fight. 1 hour ago, Visio Diaboli said: I also think this would be needed for a 'healslut' type of playthrough I tried this briefly. It wasn't fun. Follower AI is just too stupid. It's not just the pathing on anything other than smooth terrain (though that does come up a lot). It's the complete absence of intelligence in battle. It works okay in one-on-one fights, but in more complex situations it's painfully apparent that the "expert" is clueless. I suppose one could view being led by a dunce who claims to be a pro as part of the PC's humiliation, but it's not enjoyable gameplay. It isn't that your ideas are bad at all; it's that the game framework is poorly equipped to do what you'd like. If you just want the follower to walk in front, then as other have suggested, a "Follow Me" mod could work okay with a switch so that the player could take the lead for a while, then ask the follower to "please show me the way, I don't know what I'm doing." Edited March 18, 2022 by HexBolt8
Darkwing241 Posted March 18, 2022 Posted March 18, 2022 1 hour ago, HexBolt8 said: I tried this briefly. It wasn't fun. Follower AI is just too stupid. I've also played similar styles, I didn't find it so much to be that they were dumb (they are dumb though). My problem was that followers do not attack consistently, they have a hit recovery animation that makes it so when fighting multiple opponents, they basically never swing their weapon. I think for any situation where you expect followers to do the fighting you would need to look carefully at their attack/defense balance. Sometimes followers seem basically immortal, other situation they go down in an instant. They also seem to often have very low damage output, while at other times blasting through enemies The last problem I encountered was that followers are pretty hopeless when it comes to dragons. basicly instant death from breath attacks. Or in cases where they are strong enough to win, they just blender through the dragon mindlessly. It's very Binary. I mixed in some summoning and other "support" ish spells to mitigate some of these problems, and used some mace skills from ordinator that stripped armor. Then I just roleplayed a rule that I was only allowed to use my weapons cosmetically. I also messed around with an alchemist version of this that used a low quality hunting bow to deliver poisons. Super alchemy focused characters are actually a ton of fun for "follower reliant" playstyles. A limited supply of effective weapons means you can chip in for boss fights and weird combat situations the follower AI can't handle, but you still rely on you follower to protect you from wolves and bandits, and occasionally run to them in panicked fear when your supplies run out.
Visio Diaboli Posted March 22, 2022 Author Posted March 22, 2022 Actually pretty stoked with how this mod is looking now. I'm going through all of the 'dungeon' locations with my follower and checking how the AI responds to them - so far I'm at 97, leaving about as many to go. Of those: 39 were able to be completed by the follower without significant issue, often even competently 35 caused the follower to bug out or give up, or were just not interesting enough to be worthwhile 23 were completable with player intervention - providing additional steps to the quest/packages could likely see them joining the first group With the pressure plate perk added to the follower while the quest is running, and with other incremental improvements, the AI is getting quicker at clearing dungeons, and has fewer and shorter complete pauses than before. The biggest two issues at the moment are getting stuck on rocks and hitting tripwires (not too many of them but the pressure plate perk does nothing for them). I haven't actually tried to tackle the 'getting stuck' problem yet though, so that will be the next task. After that I think I'll upload what I have here (or maybe in a development thread or something) so that anyone can test out what I have so far. I doubt I'll be able to iron out all of the flaws, but as something to get dominant NPCs moving on their own, it's a hell of a lot better than nothing. 5
Darkwing241 Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, Visio Diaboli said: I'm going through all of the 'dungeon' locations with my follower and checking how the AI responds to them - so far I'm at 97, leaving about as many to go. Of those: 39 were able to be completed by the follower without significant issue, often even competently 35 caused the follower to bug out or give up, or were just not interesting enough to be worthwhile 23 were completable with player intervention - providing additional steps to the quest/packages could likely see them joining the first group A comprehensive list like that would be a worthwhile project on it's own, just as a mod making resource.
Visio Diaboli Posted March 22, 2022 Author Posted March 22, 2022 12 hours ago, Darkwing241 said: A comprehensive list like that would be a worthwhile project on it's own, just as a mod making resource. I'm not sure how useful it would be since they're mostly in regard to this project. But if you think they'd have some use cases I could probably post a list when I'm done, or even copy the formlists out to their own esp. 1
Visio Diaboli Posted March 26, 2022 Author Posted March 26, 2022 (edited) Turns out I was pretty close to the end last update, so those numbers are pretty much the same for now. But here's a breakdown. Criteria: -Has LocTypeDungeon keyword -Has a 'Boss' reference type -In vanilla or either DLC -Is not a giant camp Blacklisted - Not possible for this mod to guide AI through, or exceedingly difficult, or nonsensical/boring Spoiler Sightless Pit Nilheim High Gate Ruins Deepwood Redoubt Cronvangr Hall Steepfall Burrow Bthalft Red Eagle Redoubt Treva's Watch Raldbthar Clearpine Pond Honeystrand Cave Bonechill Passage Bleakwind Basin Bthardamz Dimhollow Crypt Bleak Falls Barrow Bleakcoast Cave Hags End Rift Watchtower Avanchnzel Cragwallow Slope Autumnshade Clearing Skybound Watch Evergreen Grove Knifepoint Ridge Angarvunde Mzulft Rannveig's Fast Greenspring Hollow Volskygge Winter War Greywater Grotto Labyrinthian Northwind Mine Halldir's Cairn Rebel's Cairn Brinehammer Greylisted - player intervention required, maybe possible with an expansion of the mod's logic Spoiler Bloodlet Throne Volunruud Harmugstahl Blind Cliff Cave Shriekwind Basin Darkwater Cavern Abandoned Prison Silverdrift Lair Hrodulf's House Yngol Barrow Mzinchaleft Broken Oar Grotto Stony Creek Cave Serpent's Bluff Redoubt Yngvild Peak's Shade Tower Lost Echo Cave Forsaken Cave Bilegulch Mine Glacial Cave Shimmermist Cave Crystaldrift Cavern Bleakwind Bluff Coldcinder Cave Nchaund Zel Rimerock Burrow Morvunskar Halted Stream Camp Tolvald's Cave Ravenscar Hollow Whitelisted - completable without player intervention, on by default in the mod Spoiler Mara's Eye Pond Moss Mother Cavern Lost Valley Redoubt Chillwind Depths Boulderfall Cave Falkreath Watchtower Broken Helm Hollow Orotheim Southfringe Sanctum Robber's Gorge Pride of Tel Vos Stillborn Cave Druadach Redoubt Shadowgreen Cavern Movarth's Lair Bloodskal Barrow Broken Tusk Mine Moldering Ruins Broken Tower Redoubt Orphan's Tear Pinepeak Cavern Brittleshin Pass Shrouded Grove Brood Cavern Sunderstone Gorge Silent Moons Camp Bruca's Leap Redoubt Broken Fang Cave Darkshade Copse Fort Fellhammer Bloated Man's Grotto Valkygg Bristleback Cave Altar of Thrond Haemar's Shame Gloomreach Pinemoon Cave Here's what I have so far in case anyone wants to play around with it. Inversion of Power v0.0.1.zip It's very crude - don't enmesh it into your playthrough by making more progress than you care to throw out when done with it. Start by asking your follower if there's anything they'd like to do, then your journey as a follower will begin. You'll receive an 'Alert Leader' power that lets you initiate dialogue with your leader, take the lead for 45s, fast travel to the current objective, or teleport your leader to you, from a popup menu. So far the gameplay is just going to a dungeon, progressing until the boss is killed, telling your follower that you think the place is cleared, then repeating. Not terribly interesting yet but I don't find it altogether boring either. The MCM has toggles for the above white/grey/black lists, in case you would like to witness those for some reason. If anyone tries it out and experiences problems with it let me know. I have no idea how this thing will fare in someone else's load order. Edited March 26, 2022 by Visio Diaboli 1
43deadwood Posted March 26, 2022 Posted March 26, 2022 Just had to DL and try out. Can't seem to be able to activate 'fast travel'. Have SL Survival but have enabled fast travel in that MCM, even used console commands. When I select 'fast travel' option screen fades to black but then opens again at the same spot, then I get repeating message 'Stuck, Teleporting', Having said that I did start following my new leader and it was fun. Liked the 'alert leader' power and the ability to resume command as I use needs mods and need sleep. In current playtrough on an existing game started at Haemar's Shame and travelled without glitch to Riverwood. Love the idea of the follower taking command and making random choices of where to go. Will be playing more with this later. Thanks for another great mod! I've attached my load order. loadorder.txt 1
Visio Diaboli Posted March 26, 2022 Author Posted March 26, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, 43deadwood said: Just had to DL and try out. Can't seem to be able to activate 'fast travel'. Have SL Survival but have enabled fast travel in that MCM, even used console commands. When I select 'fast travel' option screen fades to black but then opens again at the same spot, then I get repeating message 'Stuck, Teleporting', Having said that I did start following my new leader and it was fun. Liked the 'alert leader' power and the ability to resume command as I use needs mods and need sleep. In current playtrough on an existing game started at Haemar's Shame and travelled without glitch to Riverwood. Love the idea of the follower taking command and making random choices of where to go. Will be playing more with this later. Thanks for another great mod! I've attached my load order. Well glad it's working that much at least lol. Wonder what happened with fast travel. Sometimes my vanilla fast travel bugged out even with it disabled in SLS, when I used that mod, not sure if that's because of other mods I had though. The 'stuck, teleporting' thing may actually cause more problems than it solves right now, I need to iron out some oddities in it. Thanks for testing it. Edited March 26, 2022 by Visio Diaboli
ri4ndjeif Posted March 26, 2022 Posted March 26, 2022 Just a random suggestion here, but to avoid having to deal with the pathing issues why not setup something like what SLUTS does with cart transport? That way when you are outside the follower tells the player where they want to go, they then summon a cart and demand the player carts them to the next objective. That way you avoid needing handle pathing (at least outdoors) and it adds an extra layer of fun and "realism" to the experience. Bonus if you could have the follower punish you for going too slow. FYI I have zero experience modding so I don't know how hard this would be but it seems like it be easier than having to fix the AI pathing in Skyrim.
Visio Diaboli Posted March 26, 2022 Author Posted March 26, 2022 I think my next objective for this is to make it so that the follower is the one receiving all of the loot, but am not 100% sure how to proceed. I know for sure that I want there to be a generic "loot" item, that weighs as much as normal loot would, that the player should be made to carry for their leader and then hand in on trips back to the city. This would accurately flip the dynamic between player/NPC, now the player is the one that has to carry a bunch of shit that neither belongs to them nor is usable by them. I have a partially completed system that replaces all of the loot in dungeon chests+strong boxes with said generic loot item. But beyond that is where I have to sound out my options. Should the follower loot chests during the dungeon? Or should the player be left entirely responsible for collecting all of the loot? The latter, while not a true inversion, might be necessary to keep the gameplay entertaining (i.e. still getting gameplay dopamine loop of kill enemies -> get reward roughly based on difficulty of enemies) I'll also have to deal with weighting the loot and tracking its value; finnicky but I don't expect it to be difficult in the end. Any input/suggestions for this feature are appreciated.
Darkwing241 Posted March 26, 2022 Posted March 26, 2022 6 minutes ago, Visio Diaboli said: I think my next objective for this is to make it so that the follower is the one receiving all of the loot, but am not 100% sure how to proceed. I know for sure that I want there to be a generic "loot" item, that weighs as much as normal loot would, that the player should be made to carry for their leader and then hand in on trips back to the city. This would accurately flip the dynamic between player/NPC, now the player is the one that has to carry a bunch of shit that neither belongs to them nor is usable by them. I have a partially completed system that replaces all of the loot in dungeon chests+strong boxes with said generic loot item. But beyond that is where I have to sound out my options. Should the follower loot chests during the dungeon? Or should the player be left entirely responsible for collecting all of the loot? The latter, while not a true inversion, might be necessary to keep the gameplay entertaining (i.e. still getting gameplay dopamine loop of kill enemies -> get reward roughly based on difficulty of enemies) I'll also have to deal with weighting the loot and tracking its value; finnicky but I don't expect it to be difficult in the end. Any input/suggestions for this feature are appreciated. Well the kink/generic nature of this mod is still up for grabs, but the "PC as baggage carrier" was discussed in the DF thread a couple of times. I think this feature could be reskinned in either the kink or non-kink direction really easy. Just use a 'Dnd style lodestone' item, an item that can't be dropped that has no practical usefulness to the player. Then just skin that item as whatever you want. "box of follower's name's loot." You could also just make dummy clones of generic skyrim items. Like just copy an iron helmet and then just change the armoraa or w/e to make it not actually a helmet. That way it would feel like you are actually carrying items. Cloned items are a little more work but I think either is probably better then some external text popup. 1
Visio Diaboli Posted March 26, 2022 Author Posted March 26, 2022 4 minutes ago, Darkwing241 said: Cloned items are a little more work but I think either is probably better then some external text popup. Oh yea currently it's an actual misc object named 'Loot' with a bag as the icon, weighing 1 lb. Whenever the player opens a chest (as long as the mod detected the chest, which it seems to be doing pretty well), all of the loot gets removed and replaced with an equivalent weight of Loot items. I can also get the total value of what was in the chest, but whether I'll use this or a flat value/value per level per loot I'm not sure yet. Useless copies of items is interesting, I should try to do something like that occasionally to break up the monotony in chest contents.
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