Darkwing241 Posted March 26, 2022 Posted March 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Visio Diaboli said: Useless copies of items is interesting, I should try to do something like that occasionally to break up the monotony in chest contents. A mix is actually a pretty smart idea. Maybe when you try to take the cool magic item it actually goes to the follower? Maybe a simple "hey we found this neat item can I use it?" dialogue? While all the random coins and other assorted loot just gets condensed into a loot bag lodestone that you have to take.
43deadwood Posted March 27, 2022 Posted March 27, 2022 OK - just cleared the first dungeon. Enjoyed having to follow the NPC - actually feel it's more fun to follow on foot rather that transport to the location. Pathing for the NPC leader pretty good - did lose sight a few times in forests. More than happy with the mod as it stands - congratulations! 2
slicksly Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 Loot is rather important for power progression of the game, which is also important for enjoyment. When changing loot to be nonusable for the player character, you're also removing a lot of the enjoyment. I think gear for the player character should still be important, even in a mod focused on the NPC as leader. Normally, the player dresses the follower to make the follower more effective. Maybe this could be replicated in some meaningful way, as in the NPC gives the player character a "suitable" piece of loot at points. Maybe after clearing a dungeon, maybe after x time, or something else? If loot from enemies and containers is replaced by "generic loot item" which you carry for your leader, maybe you'd get a "leftover"-container at the end of the dungeon based on how much you looted, where you'd get a selection of stuff you could use for yourself? 1
Visio Diaboli Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 5 hours ago, slicksly said: Loot is rather important for power progression of the game, which is also important for enjoyment. When changing loot to be nonusable for the player character, you're also removing a lot of the enjoyment. I think gear for the player character should still be important, even in a mod focused on the NPC as leader. I was thinking about having the leader periodically give the player gear upgrades while in cities, as well as consumables. The frequency/quantity would be based mostly on loot collected but also how well the player was doing as a follower. It might also be worthwhile to give gear upgrades immediately after dungeons, though, to maintain a more direct correlation between work/reward. I suppose the main struggle with it is going to be capturing the same pace as the player would get upgrades during their own adventures - I don't think it needs to be exact, but a small difference either way could really screw with the gameplay loop. Plus the NPCs don't really know what kind of gear the player would want - maybe whenever it's time for an upgrade I open a trade menu with a few options for whatever gear slot is being given? An alternative is handing the player gold to get their own upgrades, which I'll probably add either way, but mostly as a way of failure-proofing it. 2
brewmasterhal Posted April 2, 2022 Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) On 3/28/2022 at 9:13 AM, Visio Diaboli said: I was thinking about having the leader periodically give the player gear upgrades while in cities, as well as consumables. The frequency/quantity would be based mostly on loot collected but also how well the player was doing as a follower. It might also be worthwhile to give gear upgrades immediately after dungeons, though, to maintain a more direct correlation between work/reward. I suppose the main struggle with it is going to be capturing the same pace as the player would get upgrades during their own adventures - I don't think it needs to be exact, but a small difference either way could really screw with the gameplay loop. Plus the NPCs don't really know what kind of gear the player would want - maybe whenever it's time for an upgrade I open a trade menu with a few options for whatever gear slot is being given? An alternative is handing the player gold to get their own upgrades, which I'll probably add either way, but mostly as a way of failure-proofing it. Took a few minutes to read through the thread a bit. You've successfully nerd-sniped me with this idea. Giving the NPC a specific goal that he/she wants to achieve is a good way to go with this idea. It would be similar to the follower affinity system in FO4, which incentivizes the player to max each follower's affinity for the permanent buff perk and then move on to the next follower. It provides the player with a sense of achievement when the NPC achieves their goal, somewhat replacing the loss of achievement because the player has only been a paid mercenary (at best). In contexts where the player is not willingly helping the NPC master, it provides an opportunity for the player to be transferred or sold to another NPC, or for a change in gameplay as the player shifts to working for the NPC in a different capacity. Probably the best way to achieve this is to divide the set of possible followers by hold and by occupation. A mercenary follower like Marcurio would be interested in wealth and glory, and would therefore seek to clear tasks within a given hold to win favor with the Jarl. This limits the set of dungeons that a given follower would choose to visit. A quest implementation for Marcurio might include things like selecting an appropriate love interest for him, say Ingun Blackbriar, and moving her into one of the whitelisted dungeons as a kidnapping victim. Marcurio could approach the player with a proclamation from the Jarl requesting aid in recovering Ingun with a reward offered by Maven, and ask the player to help for half of the reward (since neither the guards nor anyone else seems eager to help). After rescuing the damsel and falling in love, Maven forbids the marriage until Marcurio becomes a suitable match, so he again enlists help clearing out a couple of other random whitelisted dungeons, at which point the Jarl makes him thane and he buys a house. You can get it all done with a few forceGreet dialogs, a handful of scenes between Marcurio and Ingun/Maven/Jarl, and a bit of quest scripting. For different types of NPCs, different goals would need to be coded. A College follower would be more interested in knowledge and research than wealth or fame, and would seek out dungeons where mages, vampires, or magic things can be found. A thief or Dark Brotherhood follower might have some kind of revenge as a goal. A housecarl, companion, or Mjoll might be more interested in simply making the hold safer. As far as the NPC attempting to travel through dangerous locations to reach the dungeons, limiting the geographic space that the NPC can select dungeons from will help. Even better, maintain a set of nearest settlements corresponding to each whitelisted dungeon, and make the first step of each dungeon quest be hiring a carriage to fast-travel to the nearest town. This will reduce the total distance needed to travel by foot and thus limit the potential for the AI to shit the bed. It provides a plausible drain on the gold picked up from the dungeons. Once the NPC and player leave the dungeon and reach some marker nearby the exit, the NPC can initiate a forceGreet and "fast-travel" back to town to sell the loot and "turn in" the quest. If the NPC gets stuck while navigating somewhere, I think Sexlab already provides a solution to the problem. At the beginning of a sex scene, it tracks the position of all involved NPCs every few seconds, and if the NPC's xyz coordinates do not change enough within about ten seconds the NPC is simply teleported to the target. You would probably have to teleport the NPC close to the player instead, due to the risk of shifting them inside some geometry if you tried to perform a linear translation along a straight-line path to the target marker. Making anonymous items that the player has to carry does provide the opportunity to see that he/she is holding, say, a pair of heavy armor boots with a given value and then ask the NPC for that item as an upgrade. With only the item value as an indicator, the item may or may not actually be an upgrade. The risk of asking for something that isn't actually useful might be either a detriment or a bonus, depending on the context in which the mod is being used. Cutting the anonymous items down to the categories (sword | axe | mace | dagger | greatsword | battleaxe | warhammer | bow | shield | chest | head | gloves | boots) * (cloth | light | heavy) * (mundane | magical) means you would need to create 13 * 3 * 2 such MISC items, plus two for magic rings and magic amulets for a total of 80. If you want to allow the NPC to offer items to the player, check the player's equipped chest armor to decide what kind of armor to offer, and the main hand weapon to decide to offer similar items or items with enchantments that buff damage for such items. You can once again use the NPC's occupation to make other item offer decisions, for instance an NPC with a keyword marking them as a spellcaster would take all spellbooks and scrolls while one without that keyword would offer them to the player instead. Any item that is not normally equippable by the PC should definitely go into a generic "loot" object, similar to the coin purse and quiver objects added by Requiem. With a few gold sinks built into the NPC's displayed behavior (paying for travel, paying for information/bribes, buying consumables, etc), there is a plausible reason why the player might get item upgrades at a reduced pace. Again, this may be a good or bad thing, depending on context. If you want the player's gear to progress at more or less the vanilla pace, I would think that simply giving the player an item chosen from a levelled list would work. Hypothetically, it should be possible to use markers to define locations within a dungeon like outside the entrance, outside the exit, cell transitions, locked doors and chests, and traps and use a state machine like a set of quest stages to force the NPC to navigate through the dungeon along a specific path to hit each marker in order and then perform some action once it is reached. Once you have created a base object for each type of marker and created associated behavior, and built a basic quest demonstrating the usage of each type, you can release it as a framework. It should be relatively easy for members of the community to use the markers to effectively "program" how an NPC should complete each dungeon in a one-dungeon-per-modfile fashion, which you could then copy back into a main module as they are submitted. Here's a list of some potential types of markers that would be useful: Start of journey point (in case the NPC wants to wait until morning to leave town) Outside dungeon entrance Outside dungeon exit End of journey point (where the NPC and PC "fast travel" to after reaching the dungeon exit marker) Campsite (in case traveling to the dungeon takes all day) Go here (force the NPC to go to a specific location - mostly for correcting pathing issues) Dialog (force the NPC to initiate dialog, which can then be used to have the NPC order/ask the player to do things) Pick lock (have the NPC tell the player to pick a lock) Pick up item Cell transition (when placed at the door to the next cell, should allow the NPC to transition by Activating the door object?) Initiate combat (not sure if it's possible, but ideally the NPC could be set to target the boss and ignore other mobs, leaving weaker ones to the player) Activate object (the cell transition marker seems like it might be a duplicate of this) Deactivate trap (either the NPC or player via dialog) Use item (have the NPC spend some of the money from each quest reward on "potions" that he/she uses to buff before a boss fight) Solve puzzle (for cases where the Activate marker will not be good enough, simply make the player do it) I think it would probably be possible to create a similar framework to allow goal quests and dialog to be created on a per-NPC basis (if desired) but I'm certain it would be more complicated than the single-dungeon framework. If these frameworks did exist, however, it would provide people like HexBolt8 with the tools to plug all of this into Submissive Lola relatively easily and create custom master/slave goal quests. Obviously all of this is from an outside perspective and I'm certain that they will all be harder than I assume to implement, but if it's possible to crowdsource a project this ambitious I feel like its chances of actually happening go up. Edited April 2, 2022 by brewmasterhal 2
Antiope_Apollonia Posted April 2, 2022 Posted April 2, 2022 On 3/28/2022 at 4:13 PM, Visio Diaboli said: Plus the NPCs don't really know what kind of gear the player would want - maybe whenever it's time for an upgrade I open a trade menu with a few options for whatever gear slot is being given? An alternative is handing the player gold to get their own upgrades, which I'll probably add either way, but mostly as a way of failure-proofing it. Probably the best solution would be to let the player define their build in the MCM. Pick an armour type and weapon type and a few primary skills, and use that to generate the items the leader offers the player. 2
PeterWitzig Posted April 22, 2022 Posted April 22, 2022 Hoping that this thread is not dead yet: Tried some whitelisted dungeons with good old Sven and it worked perfectly. But just to be sure: Is it intended, that the quest just keeps going after one dungeon is cleared? I was expecting some kind of choice at the end (maybe along the lines of: Sven-"On to the next dungeon!" Player-"I'm ready."/"I can't keep up anymore."). Lots of lewd potential for consequences if the player wants out. I wouldn't know how hard they are to implement, but just to throw in some ideas: 1. After a combat encounter (if the npc is below a threshold of health), they could ask the player to heal them. Potions and/or magic. 2. Before going into the dungeon, the npc could stop the player for preparations. Not sure, if there are any non-lewd preparations the player could do. Whatever you may decide on will probably work out fine, since PW is already one of the best mods on this site.
Visio Diaboli Posted April 22, 2022 Author Posted April 22, 2022 11 hours ago, PeterWitzig said: Hoping that this thread is not dead yet: Tried some whitelisted dungeons with good old Sven and it worked perfectly. But just to be sure: Is it intended, that the quest just keeps going after one dungeon is cleared? I was expecting some kind of choice at the end (maybe along the lines of: Sven-"On to the next dungeon!" Player-"I'm ready."/"I can't keep up anymore."). Lots of lewd potential for consequences if the player wants out. Haven't worked on much in a while but this will probably be what I work on when I return. The uploaded version is more of a proof of concept than something meant to be played seriously, so more activities and end conditions would be built into an official release
PolskiHusarz20 Posted April 29, 2022 Posted April 29, 2022 I think this idea is very interesting and has a great potential, good luck Visio! 1
R34x Posted May 1, 2022 Posted May 1, 2022 (edited) Public Whore is a mod that I believe is really well done. While I hope it gets more iterations and further development, as is it is excellent. I believe you, HexBolt, and Monoman have several of the mods that are essential to creating the illusion that the PC is a heroine in peril of living in a brutal world. Changing the follower system in the way you're discussing here is a huge piece of taking that much further. I've actually thought about it a lot and have some really strong opinions on it, I'll try (and probably fail) to not be too long winded with those opinions, hopefully some of it is useful... Smoke and Mirrors There are a lot of ambitious mods on LL and Nexus that attempt to add significant changes to how the game is played. There have been several Nexus mods that attempt to effectively remove the player's autonomy and play into the 'forced' fetish. I think there is a vital mistake made by a lot of these mods though... The fetish doesn't require the player themself to lose autonomy, it should soley focus on the PC. While some things, like movement speed, dialog choices, combat ability, possessions, and capabilities can be stripped from the PC and limit the player's ability to operate within the game world freely, I think the effect you are aiming for can be achieved really well through smoke and mirrors while never taking control from the player at all (not that I dislike when simple changes are forced on the player, like stripping items or changing animations via DAR - I quite like that when done well. My remark about not taking control from the player is not in reference to these types of adjustments). EDIT: To be clear, my point here was meant to be: "can be achieved really well through smoke and mirrors while never taking control from the player at all in many areas" A likely more achievable goal would be to create the illusion that the PC is not the leader. We could have a totally different conversation about the need for the PC to be the star of the show or somehow special, and I'd really enjoy that conversation, but it isn't necessary for the point I'll try to make here... Using smoke and mirrors, you can leave the player in complete control of what happens in the game, but provide instruments for the player to use to create scenes where the PC is in a perilous position, or enslaved to an NPC. Some examples: The player doesn't need to have a brainless NPC guiding them through the game, but perhaps through cloning movements or some creative programming trick that doesn't require complex AI packages prone to breaking, a mod could make it seem like the PC is following an NPC as you move through the game world. Such a system would likely have quirks of its own but if say the NPC "follower" duplicates all of your movements somehow to stay in front of the PC, the player could learn to control the movement effectively to create the desired illusion. Said system would also be best if it had a hotkey, spell, or power that turned it off and on. It could even be a dialog sequence. I could go on and on about the ways it might be done, but to be honest, the one that is easiest to develop with the fewest possible glitches and best performance would be ideal. Instead of actually leading the player through a dungeon or environment, perhaps at certain places the NPC could make curt remarks about the player's choices. The severity of their tone could be linked to a faction ranking or relationship status, (i.e. "Why are you going down this tunnel you dumb whore?" vs "While I appreciate your eagerness to please me, make sure you ask which way next time, pet." Dialog trees as more than a conversation tool for the PC... When talking to NPCs, it migh be possible to create the illusion that the "follower" is actually who is having the conversation, and the PC is just there watching... Or you could have NPC's interupt conversations, or when heading into towns they could have a dialog that instructs them that the NPC wants to remain inconspicuous and expects the PC to handle all interactions. Simply having the NPC lay down rules, and somehow monitoring how well the PC follows these rules could be effective as well in dealing with the player's autonomy and creating the illusion that the PC is in fact the follower. At certain points, the follower could then react to the player's performance and reward / punish them accordingly. Submissive Lola does this somewhat, and I feel like it could be greatly expanded on in the game in ways that do not require tinkering with the thousands of conversations possible in the game. Instead of having scripts which constantly run and clog up the game, perhaps have short, random events that play at predictable points during gameplay. After conversations, after items are purchased, when entering a city, when completing a major quest, when sleeping, etc... The obsession some mod creators have with making sure their mod is "always on" and doing something in the background is imo why a lot of mods fail. (EDIT: All of the suggestions above are meant to be things that can be done in addition to the current design, not 100% replace it.) Damn, I was going to keep going on and on, but like I said I'm going to force myself not to write a disertation about my feelings on this topic, lol. I do feel like Monoman does an excellent job of introducing some of these concepts into the game with SLS, but to be honest, I think we need MANY more. Mods like SD+ and Pama's incredible creations would greatly benefit from distinguishing between Player autonomy and PC autonomy. It is a Role Playing game after all. The best way these mods can be created imo is setting the stage for the player to act out their fantasy, not play the game for them. (EDIT: The best way these mods can be created imo is setting the stage for the player to act out their fantasy however they choose to according to their own taste ) The key point is, whatever is difficult to achieve in game by programming could be equally well achieved imo with smoke and mirrors and narrative tricks. Reminding the player about these things being part of their role in a myriad of ways could be just as effective as limiting their ability to actually do things. Anyway, really love your mod Visio, I believe it is an excellent alternative to a lot of other mods that lose their appeal by trying to do too much (I have nothing but repect for the creator of Slaverun Reloaded, the amount of work in that mod alone is unbelievable and it helped me understand how much is possible with Skyrim modding. I don't use it anymore due to compatibility and performance issues, but I think it is responsible for inspiring a ton of amazing mods that have come since). Edited May 2, 2022 by R34x 2
R34x Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) Just to add to my previous comment, another idea I have been stewing on as I map out planned additions to RMCW's Whorecrux mod: The dialog system could be used to allow the player to select what happens to the PC. Instead of being the PC's response in quotations, it could be an action that describes an NPCs actions against the PC, or even how the PC reacts to actions forced onto them Example of player chosen options in the conversation from NPC perspective *Lydia tired of Dragonborn's excuses, grabbed her by her hair and forced her down to her knees.* *Lydia forcefully turned the Dragonborn around and leaned her over a table.* *With a wicked grin, Lydia stripped off the Dragonborn's armor before taunting her.* In the above examples, after the player selects what they want to happen in the dialog system, a mini event or animation could play, and a voice file could play before another dialog pops up with further actions. Once an action is selected it branches into another set of possibilities. TBH I am kind of surprised no mods have chosen to do this yet, it seems like a good way to accomplish many things and minimize scripting problems and other issues. Another set of examples from the PC's perspective: *I gasped as Lydia grabbed my hair and hurled me to the floor* *Before I knew what was happening, I was spun around and my chest was pushed against the table* *Lydia's lips curled into a cruel grin as she grabbed my top and ripped it off of my chest* The method above leaves control in the hands of the player, but allows them to basically play out events as they chose. I find a lot of appeal in that approach. Now, dialog is already used to determine what happens next, but this method changes things up significantly imo. It could be used in a ton of possible ways, and either be simple 1 layer deep trees, or complicated dialogs that do one event after the next. I believe how that is done technically could be handled in a ton of ways as well... The dialog could branch and call multiple scriptlets, or could end, then start an event, and pop up a new dialog afterwards. Pretty much how things are handled now, but instead of taking control away from the player and hiding what happens next behind NPC reactions... The Player decides in a more direct way what happens to their PC next - sort of like a director in a movie. I like to think of this as Dominion vs. Immersion... Is immersive gameplay always the best path in mods like these? Would it appeal to players to have more dominion over the player while forsaking their own immersion? Would players be able to still immerse themselves into that role even if a mod presented things in this way? I just feel like it opens up a lot of possibilities to explore in mod design, and hopefully we see people try it out. One last thing... What this type of format would really benefit from is a framework mod / skse plugin which allows creators to make JSON based dialogs or other interactions which allow use to use RNG entries in a JSON file, and still give the power to call scriptlets within said system. With as many huge skse plugin mods we have seen in the past couple years in so many areas, it feels like such a mod might come someday soon... And if it does, it will be a massive boon to LL mod production. Edited May 2, 2022 by R34x 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, R34x said: I think there is a vital mistake made by a lot of these mods though... The fetish doesn't require the player themself to lose autonomy, it should soley focus on the PC. This is just not accurate. Not as a general rule, anyway. There are fundamentally two kinds of gamers: those who identify with the PC and project themselves into the game, and those who don't but instead see the PC as just another character, who differs only insofar as she's the vehicle for advancing the plot. For a grossly oversimplified example, a submissive woman who enjoys playing a submissive female PC is in the first category, but a dominant male player who enjoys playing a submissive female PC would be in the second. Based on your posts, you're seem to clearly be in the second category, but the idea being proposed here is presumably aimed at those of us in the former category. You're asking for something fundamentally different from what's being workshopped here. I'm interested in this ambitious project precisely because it's not what you've described, and I'm certain many others are, too—presumably including the author. Edited May 2, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia 1
R34x Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Based on your posts, you're seem to clearly be in the second category, but the idea being proposed here is presumably aimed at those of us in the former category. You're asking for something fundamentally different from what's being workshopped here. I'm interested in this ambitious project precisely because it's not what you've described, and I'm certain many others are, too—presumably including the author. Que? I am partly talking about designing (EDIT: appropriate parts of) the mod to separate the PC and from the player, making it less immersive by design (EDIT: when and as needed only). There is definitely a breakdown in communication here somehow. Also I never said taking autonomy away from the player was wrong, I just said the fetish does not require it... Making mods like this with an immersive intent I would argue is definitely the more difficult way to program these sorts of mods, obviously because having to use the AI to do everything is much trickier than leaning on the player to chose what happens to their PC next themselves. I also clearly gave two examples of how the text could be done, one would be for those who want to view the happenings in the dialog through the eyes of the PC, and those who want to pull the camera back and have the writing done in 3rd person. Besides all of that, your suggestion that I am seeking to immerse myself as the PC when I play such a mod seems glib... My post is pretty clearly in support of designing mods to assert dominion over the PC as an actor on screen, not design a mod to immerse the player into the role of the PC themself. What I did suggest though, that such players could chose to immerse themselves into that role themselves, despite the narrative presentation. You argue there are two types of players like it is some axiom, but I think you are missing a critical 3rd category and probably more besides this: A player who sees the PC as something they control in an artificial world and do not see themselves as a participant at all or immerse themselves into the frame, they play as if they are directing a movie and controlling actors. These types of players usually prefer as many things in the game as possible to be done in 3rd person because it fits that perspective perfectly. That may sound like the first category on the surface, but I believe there is a significant difference. To be honest, I don't get you're take at all, it seems pretty disconnected from what I typed out. But hey, this is LL and I'm not here to debate with someone the intention of what I write and have them strawman me, lol. All I am doing is suggesting an alternative way to create a mod like Visio described without undertaking the nearly impossible, monumental task of coding AI behaviors to (EDIT: soley) play huge chunks of the game autonomously for you and allow you to tag along while it blunders through the environments. To summarize my actual take, and not a faulty interpretation of it: Smoke and Mirrors - bend the mod's narrative (EDIT: as needed) to cheat around doing impossibly complex tasks via scripts while still achieving a satisfying result that will satisfy as many players as possible. (EDIT: Final clarification on this post... I never meant to suggest these narrative tricks should be used exclusively to create the mod... I understand that the premise is taking control from the player away and I really like that idea [otherwise I wouldn't have posted here in the first place ffs], I am just saying it doesn't have to do this 100% of the time... I don't see how this could be done effectively without creating massive problems with the game... Especially considering the fact there is no way to know what other mods players will use, and simply listing a few incompatibilities couldn't possibly cover all of the problems such a mod would create.) Edited May 2, 2022 by R34x
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, R34x said: I am partly talking about designing the mod to separate the PC and from the player, making it less immersive by design. Exactly. That's good for a certain kind of player. You appear to be such a player. Many others are not. What you propose would completely fail to achieve the objective of the original proposal for that class of users, who appear to be the target audience. 21 minutes ago, R34x said: You argue there are two types of players like it is some axiom, but I think you are missing a critical 3rd category and probably more besides this: A player who sees the PC as something they control in an artificial world and do not see themselves as a participant at all or immerse themselves into the frame, they play as if they are directing a movie and controlling actors. You're describing precisely the second category. 21 minutes ago, R34x said: All I am doing is suggesting an alternative way to create a mod like Visio described Except you're not. At all. You're suggesting creating a mod that caters to a completely different audience. An audience you're likely a part of, so it appeals to you. But there are already lots of mods that do things along those lines. Maybe not exactly what you dream of, but that space has content. Submissive Lola would get my vote for the top dog in that area. @Visio Diaboli is endeavouring to create something new, which would cater to a different demographic. That's not to say there wouldn't be overlap in the audiences for the two categories of mods—there would absolutely be a lot of overlap—but you're asking him to do something fundamentally different than what the OP purports to tackle. TL;DR: Visio embarks on an ambitious project to create content that takes control away from the player. You come along and propose, "You could just take control away from the PC and not the player." I point out that taking control of the player is the appeal, and taking control from the PC doesn't scratch that same itch. You get butthurt and accuse me of strawmanning you... which is ironic. Edited May 2, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia 1
Visio Diaboli Posted May 2, 2022 Author Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) There's a lot posted here so I'll have to return to it once I'm in the modding headspace again. To try and summarize my goal here, I indeed want this mod to shift all control away from the player and onto an NPC, with whatever flaws the mechanical implementation may come with (I'm going to try for the best balance between implementation difficulty and smoothness). I understand that a good number of people would like to see this implemented so that the player is ultimately still driving events, even if the player's character is not. Player control won't be my primary concern, but obviously there are instances where a Skyrim AI simply will not be able to figure something out on their own, and as such safeguards like the "Alert Leader" power need to exist to allow a temporary switch back; I could imagine expanding those safeguards slightly to allow them to be toggle-ably permanent, however I don't know what that would look like exactly, yet. Edited May 2, 2022 by Visio Diaboli 1
R34x Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Exactly. That's good for a certain kind of player. You appear to be such a player. Many others are not. What you propose would completely fail to achieve the objective of the original proposal for that class of users, who appear to be the target audience. Damn, you really insist on using a combative tone in your posts, lol... I think you are taking my posts and spinning them to satisfy some desire to dismiss the concept entirely, lol... I think they call it missing the forest for the trees? Quote "partly" Partly =/= exclusively Narrative and smoke and mirrors can be used in MANY WAYS.... Where it is easy to have AI do things, do it. Where it becomes prohibitive as a mod author to code AI to do complex things... Skip it entirely and get back to doing the easy stuff that works well. I've talked with a lot of mod authors who get so zoned into doing things a specific way, they waste weeks or months on it, or simply quit modding altogether because it is not possible. All the while, they could have sidestepped the issue entirely and ended up with a mod that was almost indistinguishable from their original plan. I can chose to use narrative in a mod's design to present the story however I want. ALL I AM SAYING is Visio need not make NPCs play the game entirely as the leader by using complex AI packages where ever it is too difficult to do so. Cherry pick where this is done to reinforce the illusion. He can create the rest of that illusion while the player still controls everything themselves, even if they don't realize it. The mod can present things in a way to satisfy whatever kink the player wants on their own, be it immersive or via dominion. No matter how little control you want to have as the player, there are still some things you're always going to have to do on your own. Mod authors can't beat your dick or finger your holes for you. Anyway, I think I said my part, people are welcome to take it or leave it however they like. Just please don't straw man me or take a narrow, extremely simple minded take on what I am saying, and claim it is a total shit idea, all while phrasing it in a combative way, it's ridiculous. Edited May 2, 2022 by R34x
R34x Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Visio Diaboli said: I understand that a good number of people would like to see this implemented so that the player is ultimately still driving events, even if the player's character is not. Player control won't be my primary concern, but obviously there are instances where a Skyrim AI simply will not be able to figure something out on their own, and as such safeguards like the "Alert Leader" power need to exist to allow a temporary switch back; I could imagine expanding those safeguards slightly to allow them to be toggle-ably permanent, however I don't know what that would look like exactly, yet. Despite Antiope's tireless attempts to misrepresent what I am suggesting here... What you wrote is exactly what I am referring to. If a mod is 100% hellbent on taking control of the game away from the player completely, I can guarantee one thing: it is going to fucking break the game, or at very least cause endless unforseen issues. My suggestion is meant to do the "alert leader" type thing you are referring to, but in a way that does not kill the narrative and feel essentially like you are using console commands to get a mod back on track. Quote Except you're not. At all. You're suggesting creating a mod that caters to a completely different audience. An audience you're likely a part of, so it appeals to you. But there are already lots of mods that do things along those lines. Maybe not exactly what you dream of, but that space has content. Submissive Lola would get my vote for the top dog in that area. @Visio Diaboli is endeavouring to create something new, which would cater to a different demographic. That's not to say there wouldn't be overlap in the audiences for the two categories of mods—there would absolutely be a lot of overlap—but you're asking him to do something fundamentally different than what the OP purports to tackle. No, I'm really not... I don't get your aggression, lol. I'm just suggestion that at some point, that scope will become a fundamentally broken premise, and smoke and mirrors will be an effective way to curtail that. Smh I don't get the contempt, I am just interested in sharing some ideas, not tell Visio how to code his mod. I was using examples to explain one way narrative can be used to circumvent the issues that this mod will inevitably face, and it lead to whatever this is. Also, let's be honest with anyone who happens to read these posts... You changed this: Quote There are fundamentally two kinds of gamers: those who identify with the PC and project themselves into the game, and those who don't but instead see the PC as just another character, who differs only insofar as she's the vehicle for advancing the plot. For a grossly oversimplified example, a dominant male player who enjoys playing a submissive female PC is in the first category, but a submissive woman who enjoys playing a submissive female PC would be in the second. to this: Quote There are fundamentally two kinds of gamers: those who identify with the PC and project themselves into the game, and those who don't but instead see the PC as just another character, who differs only insofar as she's the vehicle for advancing the plot. For a grossly oversimplified example, a submissive woman who enjoys playing a submissive female PC is in the first category, but a dominant male player who enjoys playing a submissive female PC would be in the second. And that is what caused confusion and remark about being a director, to which you replied with this: Quote You're describing precisely the second category. It's pretty damn disingenuis to phantom edit a post and then argue against someone who was replying to the original phrasing in your examples due to your own typo. That is precisely one form or strawman argument... But thanks for this gem: Quote 4. You get butthurt and accuse me of strawmanning you... which is ironic. Usually the person using the phrase "butthurt" is the one who is indeed so, congratulations I guess? Lastly, let's clear up the rest of your cheeky TLDR to be more honest: Quote TL;DR: Visio embarks on an ambitious project to create content that takes control away from the player. You come along and propose, "You could just take control away from the PC and not the player." - in addition to taking control from the player as planned, if needed in order to avoid difficult issues I point out that taking control of the player is the appeal, and taking control from the PC doesn't scratch that same itch. - you over simpify my posts so you have someone to argue with, all while not admitting that my outline does not in any way preclude your desire for control to be taken away from the player. You get butthurt and accuse me of strawmanning you... which is ironic. - strawception? Tbh my appetite for discussing the mod is now completely dead, the type of exchange that preceeded this is not an appealing form of discussion to me at all. Good luck with the mod Visio! Edited May 2, 2022 by R34x 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 2, 2022 Posted May 2, 2022 This is a forum. By definition, a place for discussion. That includes disagreement. If you're so emotionally fragile that you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, you're not ready for this world. If you think I'm being "aggressive", "hostile", and "confrontational", then you don't have any concept of what those words really mean. I haven't resorted to any argumentum ad hominem, I haven't impugned your motives or your character, I haven't even said your ideas are bad per se, I've simply pointed out a flawed assumption in your reasoning. That's kind of how polite discussion works. You've taken quite a few swipes at me, on the other hand. Fortunately, I'm old enough to have dealt with plenty of real "hostility" in the world, so I'm not going to fall to pieces. 1
sporky07 Posted May 20, 2022 Posted May 20, 2022 Vilja mod can do this, she can lead into dungeons or objectives. Maybe you could contact the autor... or better just look at the AI packages in that mod. You seem smart on this.
Konakona9400 Posted January 1, 2023 Posted January 1, 2023 Apologies of the poor English, it is not my first language, but when I saw this topic through your linked Trello accounts I had to post. Sorry this post is way to long but the entire premise is fucking excellent Just want to say the idea of this mod is kinky as fuck and I love it! If my PC has been turned sex toy for her master then her leading the way has always felt disingenuous. My only comments would be: 1. Their is a clear need, as discussed above, for some form of manual override. I don't know what this would look like but as R34x said their would need to be some attempt to make it look like we are not just console commanding the AI back into line. I quite like R34x suggestion of placing the NPC ahead of the player and mimicking the players movements. For me the very fact that the PC is running ahead of her Master and the Master is dutifully following their sex toy is the issue, it hands way to much power back to the PC. A change as "simple" ( I know this might be very difficult) as a hotkey that turns off the new AI pathfinding and then either 1. reverting back to vanilla follower movement or 2. as R34x suggested cloning the PCs movements onto the Master, might be sufficient. Perhaps this should be done via the speech menu so it can be "in character" and might even link into submissive Lola submission scores and use different lines depending on the PC submission rating As part of the kinky addon mod I saw you suggested that could be made alongside this framework maybe the PC can only do this a set number of times per day without incurring punishment 2. Perhaps their should be some consideration of in-game time for people who like to roleplay, don't like to play during the in game night or people using needs mods? I am not sure if this is plausible but perhaps at set times in the day i.e. 5pm, the mod could calculate the distance to the destination (as the crow flies would be my suggestion, not asking you to solve the traveling postman problem here!) and if they would arrive after night the Master can inform the PC via ForceGreet that you will be heading to the nearest inn/town and then the Master will route their instead. Perhaps this should be a toggle in the MCM and the manual override suggested above could be a option here in case players want to push on This could be expanded to occur in set weather conditions i.e. when it starts raining if the destination is more then say 2x times as far as the nearest town the Master informs you you will be heading to town to "wait out the rain" I think with something like this mod as many options to take power away from the PC to decide her own destination are critical. I think this sort of mod want to make it feel like the PC has no control over her own life anymore and drag her back to town where a lot of the mods that would benefit from this mod are most active. Critically I think it should be aiming to prevent the player simply running from the consequences of mods such as Submissive Lola, POP and SLS 3. I know this is more intended as a framework but I feel given the systems to use the framework (submissive Lola being the key example) have been developed before the framework itself, and this is unlikely to change in this stage of Skyrims lifespan, their needs to be some consideration of what these mods aim to achieve and build the mod with this in mind. This relates to the above point in that the mod I feel should try to drag the player to places where these mods can activate so the player cannot simply avoid the consequences of these mods. Of course the option to avoid this exists in that either the player does not activate this mod or they use the aforementioned manual overrides to avoid heading to town. 4. The kinky suggestions! 4.1. Perhaps the option to allow the Master pays the PC to enable this should be included. This would be good for mods where the followers charge daily for their services i.e submissive Lola and Devious followers and can be used to negated or offset this cost. Their should also be immersive ways to trigger the mod and not just a MCM trigger i.e. if your submissive lola submission score is to high it is forced on you 4.2. Perhaps regarding armour and weapon updates perhaps their could be a option wherein the Player is given no option in what the upgrade is. I love the idea of the Master dressing his toy as they wish much like we do when playing with followers. 4.3 I feel it is important the PC is always kept in a state of forced submission AND the mod requires the player to rely heavily on followers so perhaps the Follower can automatically upgrade their own armour several levels above them and automatically upgrade your armour and weapons at the power level expected at the players level. This way the Master is always more powerful then the PC and will be more capable of handling the stupid situations it will inevitably throw themselves into 4.4. The masters comfort and safety is more important then yours. Perhaps this could made clear by with a set change as you arrive at a location the Master ForceGreets you and informs you that they are going to follow you in this dungeon until the boss is killed making it very clear that your a meat shield for them. Taking control from the player is one level of kinky but forcing control back onto the player extends that relationship of submission. 4.5. You PC is likely a sex slave if you are using this so make the PC feel like one! You recently introduced the swarming mechanic into Public Whore, perhaps this can be used here as well? my suggestion would be when the PC and Master arrive at the dungeon the Master can forcegreet you to inform you that you are going to be the distraction so the master can sneak in and steal the loot. You are told while your master stays at the dungeon entrance you are to find the Boss of the dungeon and offer yourselves up as their cumslut. Once you speak to the Boss all the NPCs in the dungeon move to your location and use the Public Whore swarm mechanic to rape the PC and at this point the Master begins slowly sneaking to the loot before leaving. My thought would be perhaps a dungeon wide calm spell could be triggered upon entering and then used each time a Sexlab animation plays a short calm spell is triggered so you need to carry on having sex to prevent them turning hostile on your master so they can sneak in drag the loot and head out. If you felt really cruel their could be a proximity forcedgreet on the way out so you cannot just simply walk out. 1
Darkwing241 Posted January 1, 2023 Posted January 1, 2023 Looked at your trello and saw an armor upgrade system on your to do list. Book of UUNP has a nice range of custom armors ranging from assorted practical to bikini. If you are looking to build some kind of progression system without tying into a million different mods, that might be a good option. 1
Visio Diaboli Posted January 6, 2023 Author Posted January 6, 2023 Glad there's still interest in this. (Obviously not due to issues I don't want to solve on PW,) I think I will shift my focus to this temporarily, and try to get a minimum viable mod uploaded with what time I can drag myself onto Creation Kit for. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: I quite like R34x suggestion of placing the NPC ahead of the player and mimicking the players movements. For me the very fact that the PC is running ahead of her Master and the Master is dutifully following their sex toy is the issue, it hands way to much power back to the PC. A change as "simple" ( I know this might be very difficult) as a hotkey that turns off the new AI pathfinding and then either 1. reverting back to vanilla follower movement or 2. as R34x suggested cloning the PCs movements onto the Master, might be sufficient. Perhaps this should be done via the speech menu so it can be "in character" and might even link into submissive Lola submission scores and use different lines depending on the PC submission rating I don't really plan on using the player's input to affect the leader's pathing due to the technical challenge (getting that to actually happen) and the logistical challenge (changing directions while the leader is ahead of you causing the leader to no longer be ahead of you - Skyrim will never have a solid enough pathing system to be able to do this smoothly). Not sure about limiting manual overriding, I suppose it could be done, but with a particularly bad day of Skyrim-isms you could very well end up exceeding this limit through no gameplay failure of your own. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 2. Perhaps their should be some consideration of in-game time for people who like to roleplay, don't like to play during the in game night or people using needs mods? I am not sure if this is plausible but perhaps at set times in the day i.e. 5pm, the mod could calculate the distance to the destination (as the crow flies would be my suggestion, not asking you to solve the traveling postman problem here!) and if they would arrive after night the Master can inform the PC via ForceGreet that you will be heading to the nearest inn/town and then the Master will route their instead. Perhaps this should be a toggle in the MCM and the manual override suggested above could be a option here in case players want to push on I had not thought of this, it should definitely be a feature. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 3. I know this is more intended as a framework but I feel given the systems to use the framework (submissive Lola being the key example) have been developed before the framework itself, and this is unlikely to change in this stage of Skyrims lifespan, their needs to be some consideration of what these mods aim to achieve and build the mod with this in mind. This relates to the above point in that the mod I feel should try to drag the player to places where these mods can activate so the player cannot simply avoid the consequences of these mods. Of course the option to avoid this exists in that either the player does not activate this mod or they use the aforementioned manual overrides to avoid heading to town. Well as soon as I get the core systems in place, I'll probably begin working on the NSFW component of it, and adjust the core mod's functionality as I need new features. I'm not sure how many people would end up using it with their own mods, but I'm assuming most of the work on the base framework will end up being adaptations for other mods, that require features I didn't think of. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 4.1. Perhaps the option to allow the Master pays the PC to enable this should be included. This would be good for mods where the followers charge daily for their services i.e submissive Lola and Devious followers and can be used to negated or offset this cost. Their should also be immersive ways to trigger the mod and not just a MCM trigger i.e. if your submissive lola submission score is to high it is forced on you I could probably have it automatically start when enslaved, but I would need to look at what problems that might cause. Having it trigger with SD+ is one of my own goals for getting it to a point where I'll play it myself. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 4.2. Perhaps regarding armour and weapon updates perhaps their could be a option wherein the Player is given no option in what the upgrade is. I love the idea of the Master dressing his toy as they wish much like we do when playing with followers. I might have this as an option in the base framework just since the entire goal is to completely reverse the roles of player/follower. Although with the sexual component this could include restraints/skimpy armor in particular. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 4.3 I feel it is important the PC is always kept in a state of forced submission AND the mod requires the player to rely heavily on followers so perhaps the Follower can automatically upgrade their own armour several levels above them and automatically upgrade your armour and weapons at the power level expected at the players level. This way the Master is always more powerful then the PC and will be more capable of handling the stupid situations it will inevitably throw themselves into I think I'd also like this to exist in the base framework, I'm not sure if that may be dipping into a dominant/submissive thing so maybe off by default. But it seems justifiable to add since that's generally what the player would do - keep the good shit to themselves and then Lydia gets the banded iron armor. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 4.4. The masters comfort and safety is more important then yours. Perhaps this could made clear by with a set change as you arrive at a location the Master ForceGreets you and informs you that they are going to follow you in this dungeon until the boss is killed making it very clear that your a meat shield for them. Taking control from the player is one level of kinky but forcing control back onto the player extends that relationship of submission. And also a mechanism for dealing with dungeons where the pathfinding bugs out *taps head*. On 1/1/2023 at 6:39 AM, Konakona9400 said: 4.5. You PC is likely a sex slave if you are using this so make the PC feel like one! You recently introduced the swarming mechanic into Public Whore, perhaps this can be used here as well? my suggestion would be when the PC and Master arrive at the dungeon the Master can forcegreet you to inform you that you are going to be the distraction so the master can sneak in and steal the loot. You are told while your master stays at the dungeon entrance you are to find the Boss of the dungeon and offer yourselves up as their cumslut. Once you speak to the Boss all the NPCs in the dungeon move to your location and use the Public Whore swarm mechanic to rape the PC and at this point the Master begins slowly sneaking to the loot before leaving. My thought would be perhaps a dungeon wide calm spell could be triggered upon entering and then used each time a Sexlab animation plays a short calm spell is triggered so you need to carry on having sex to prevent them turning hostile on your master so they can sneak in drag the loot and head out. If you felt really cruel their could be a proximity forcedgreet on the way out so you cannot just simply walk out. Good idea. Should probably have some kind of SLSO interaction to replace the interactive aspect of combat. On 1/1/2023 at 11:22 AM, Darkwing241 said: Looked at your trello and saw an armor upgrade system on your to do list. Book of UUNP has a nice range of custom armors ranging from assorted practical to bikini. If you are looking to build some kind of progression system without tying into a million different mods, that might be a good option. Hm, ideally I could build an armor progression system without referencing anything in particular at all. I'll need the base vanilla system first but I might try my luck with keywords when I get to parts where the player is expected to wear particular types of clothing. Or worst case scenario I could make addons that tell the mod how to look at certain armors
Visio Diaboli Posted January 12, 2023 Author Posted January 12, 2023 I feel as though the follow/escort mechanics are in a decent enough place that I'll just tweak it over time at this point. The main barriers ahead of a release for the base mod are mostly conceptual now; this is what I still need to figure out - feel free to comment/make suggestions on these: Terminology Used IOP - Inversion of Power, working name for this mod Adventure - the "building block" of the follower experience. Any time the player's leader sets a new objective (clearing a dungeon, returning to a city, etc), it will be by starting an 'adventure' (a quest that meets requirements for IOP's use) Leader - whoever the player is the follower of Modular Adventure System Other authors need to be able to create quests for this mod, at least in theory. I'm thinking this entails FormLists of "adventures" that are randomly drawn from. One formlist would not be enough - we'll want control over when we do combat adventures as opposed to city-based ones so that we can pace when the player can restock/sleep etc. Follower Points System The player should be incentivized to be as useful as possible, by contributing in combat, healing their leader, and collecting loot. I may look at penalties to Follower Points later on, but for minimum viability I don't think penalties are necessary. maybe just the ability to decrease them so that companion mods can do so if they wish. I think I will change the loot system to funnel directly into Follower Points, and base all of the player's progression given by IOP on them, rather than solely on loot collected. I need to figure out how spending follower points for progress works. Some options are: All points cashed in upon return to city. The first X-many will go into a proportional number of consumables (health potions etc, possibly depending on class). The remainder will be applied as progress towards weapon/armor upgrades All points cashed in upon return to city. The first X-many will go into a proportional number of consumables, and the remainder into either more consumables, or gold. Weapon/armor upgrades would come after a fixed number of adventures. Points not automatically cashed in. Upon return to city, the player can state what they would like (probably having options for consumables, gold, gear upgrades, or none and save points). Probably the best overall, but doesn't remove the player's autonomy as much as the others do. Gear Upgrade System The trigger for a gear upgrade system is going to depend on how the follower points system shapes up. But once triggered, it should offer the player an upgrade for one of their items. Calculating what's an upgrade will be the main challenge this system needs to overcome. I imagine that total damage will be the initial metric, for weapons. For armor, things like enchantments should be taken into account, but defensive rating might be sufficient for a first version. Perhaps using a gift menu and checking whether the player took the item or not, then funneling its value back into the follower points system if not accepted. 3
Konakona9400 Posted January 15, 2023 Posted January 15, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 6:04 PM, Visio Diaboli said: Terminology Used Seems to be a in a good place. Between this and the Kanban Boards no Project Manager would be unhappy. On 1/12/2023 at 6:04 PM, Visio Diaboli said: Modular Adventure System Other authors need to be able to create quests for this mod, at least in theory. I'm thinking this entails FormLists of "adventures" that are randomly drawn from. One formlist would not be enough - we'll want control over when we do combat adventures as opposed to city-based ones so that we can pace when the player can restock/sleep etc. Forgive me for not being familiar with Skyrim modding terminology but I assume FormList is a directory of possible options so to speak? If that is so my question is is it possible to apply weights to the different options? Not sure if this is possible at all but my thoughts would be for "combat adventures" can this list call a number of parameters such as "distance" to a set of pre-determined locations so that the Leader will favour "combat adventures" close to the current location For "city-based adventures" could different locations i.e. Riften, Riverrun and Solitude as examples be assigned parameter such as "Sleaziness", "Commercial" and "Safe" that could be applied to different locations to to push the leader into different "city-based adventures" depending on locations. I.e. In Riften "Sleaziness" could be set to 1.0 so it pushes the leader to select "city-based adventures" such as prostitution whereas in Solitude it might be set to 0.2 and have a ""Commercial" and "Safe" of 1.0 and 1.0 respectively pushing the leader to adventures such as a "collect me X item". My other thought would be is their a chance of a "Traversal" FormList? If the distance between location where the Adventure was started and target location is greater then X then their is a Y% chance a random "Traversal" event is triggered to occur during the journey On 1/12/2023 at 6:04 PM, Visio Diaboli said: Follower Points System The player should be incentivized to be as useful as possible, by contributing in combat, healing their leader, and collecting loot. I may look at penalties to Follower Points later on, but for minimum viability I don't think penalties are necessary. maybe just the ability to decrease them so that companion mods can do so if they wish. I think I will change the loot system to funnel directly into Follower Points, and base all of the player's progression given by IOP on them, rather than solely on loot collected. This honestly seems like a good idea to roll loot into a central system. My thoughts are the players collected loot should be converted at the end of an "adventures" so if you find a great weapon in the dungeon you can pick it up and use it while in the dungeon but at the end of the adventure it is collected by the leader into a general IOP points bundle. My thought is that different loot has different conversions into IOP points based on the Gold value of the item i.e. Weapons and Armor are converted at say 0.3 IOP per gold while enchanted items are converted at 0.5 IOP points per gold and gold itself is converted at 1.0 IOP Point per Gold. By using the CreationClub tags to achieve this it should be possible to capture even modded items into these conversions, and items not covered by the conversions are not given to the leader at the end of the adventure i.e. books Critically however it would be important to "protect" the characters and Leaders current outfit at the time of an adventure starting so you don't suddenly both end up naked. In addition it might be good to have a safesafe MCM option to protect current outfit. Of course this could be gamed, so you pick up a great piece of loot and protect it, but it might help prevent items losses in case the item somehow changes between adventure start and finish i.e. upgrading at a forge. On 1/12/2023 at 6:04 PM, Visio Diaboli said: I need to figure out how spending follower points for progress works. Some options are: All points cashed in upon return to city. The first X-many will go into a proportional number of consumables (health potions etc, possibly depending on class). The remainder will be applied as progress towards weapon/armor upgrades All points cashed in upon return to city. The first X-many will go into a proportional number of consumables, and the remainder into either more consumables, or gold. Weapon/armor upgrades would come after a fixed number of adventures. Points not automatically cashed in. Upon return to city, the player can state what they would like (probably having options for consumables, gold, gear upgrades, or none and save points). Probably the best overall, but doesn't remove the player's autonomy as much as the others do. Option 3 honestly seems like the most versatile, and critically least prone to bugs. On 1/12/2023 at 6:04 PM, Visio Diaboli said: Gear Upgrade System The trigger for a gear upgrade system is going to depend on how the follower points system shapes up. But once triggered, it should offer the player an upgrade for one of their items. Calculating what's an upgrade will be the main challenge this system needs to overcome. I imagine that total damage will be the initial metric, for weapons. For armor, things like enchantments should be taken into account, but defensive rating might be sufficient for a first version. Perhaps using a gift menu and checking whether the player took the item or not, then funneling its value back into the follower points system if not accepted. What you have put seems like a good item. My thoughts would be to convert accumulated IOP points into a gold value as it presents a universal system understood already by the game so it should minimise overhead development and work with modded items natively. When the player selects the type of upgrade they want the system could present an item from the loot table with the closest gold value (rounded down) to the accumulated points. To prevent a nightmare of Menus however you could have a MCM menu where players enters their desired loot i.e. Heavy Armor and 1h swords and shield My big worry however is the Leaders equipment. My thought is regardless of system used some of the IOP points need to be assigned to the leader to upgrade their items. it would be interesting is based on the characters Morality value different ratios were used i.e. a thief with a morality value of 0 only gives you 30% of the accumulated points for upgrades and keeps 70%. Could even use the "Primary skills" assigned to followers natively to determine the upgrades they will select.
Karkhel Posted February 2, 2023 Posted February 2, 2023 Since many people would run this mod together with SL survival could we have a tie-in with the licences? As in follower giving you bikini armor upgrades if thats the only licence you got etc, not knowing whether SL survival author will be back any time soon or ever I'd rather suggest it here, while we are at it some optional tie ins with lola, devious followers, where they give you that type of armor anyway to keep you as eye candy. I know these are outside mods, but those 3 are gonna usually be together in a modlist with this one either way.
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