Naked Defeat SE

[Rosvinar]

10 minutes ago, bnub345 said:

 

The only way form 43 plugins can cause an issue is if they contain different info from what the SE engine expects. Luckily for us (in this case), Beth were lazy bastards when they converted the game from x32 to x64, and did the bare minimum of changes to make the game work. As such, the only file headers that actually changed were:

• MATO
• STAT
• WATR
• WTHR
• WEAP
• (sub) - VMAD

Let's take a look at the ND esp now. The only ones on this list are STAT and WEAP. Looking at the STAT entries, the actual part that changed is DNAM (Directional Material), which has a Null Ref. Converting the form 43 > form 44 in the CK and looking at it again... still has a Null Ref. So nothing changed. Now on to the WEAP entries. There are two weapons in the esp, and the field that changed was CRDT (Critical Data). Here we see - oh no! - an error message. Except the weapons aren't actually used anywhere, so it doesn't matter. I guess if you added the weapon with the console, attacked someone, and rolled a crit, your game might crash? Or maybe nothing would happen, I'm not sure how that particular interaction works out. As it happens, you will get the same error converting the esp because Bethesda goofed on the CRDT conversion and it doesn't work. You have to use CK fixes to patch it.

 

So tl:dr, converting this esp to form 44 doesn't change anything. 

 

I have no idea how DAR could be related to form 43/44 crashes, it's an skse plugin and most DAR mods are just animations and text files. There isn't even an esp in there. I will repeat myself and say again that Bethesda has many form 43 files in their esms for SE, so if they caused crashes literally everyone would experience them all the time. 

 

Converting the plugin exposes you to bugs in the CK, so don't do it at all without CK fixes. Also it will strip any non-esm master files unless you have the proper setup, which WILL cause crashes. As I said in the first place, there is no reason to convert plugins unless you know what you are doing and you have a specific reason to do so.

im starting to think maybe this is a conversation for a different thread but...

doesnt this just confirm what i said?

 

I said the whole converting mods from 43 to 44 Will be on a personal modlist by modlist basis. For some it will be essential, for others it will be avoided.

 

ND specifically, runs on either version. And for a while the 4.71 update form 44 version i had/converted for myself, sat very happily in my mod list yet refused for whatever reason, to run smoothly whilst in its form 43 version. I don't know why but didn’t report it because  this simple form change solved the issue.

 

 

[no_way]

Interesting finding (maybe).  Using the converted form 44 ND as well as converning apropos2 to form 44 considerably sped up ND execution.  But it also got rid of all console right upper corner messages thingies for all mods including ND (eg "you are fucked", "your knots feel loose finally" etc).  Will keep testing.  Log attached, seems like its a mess, not sure how to interpret

Papyrus.0.log loadorder.txt modlist.txt

Edited July 27, 2022 by no_way

[Nymra]

1 hour ago, no_way said:

Interesting finding (maybe).  Using the converted form 44 ND as well as converning apropos2 to form 44 considerably sped up ND execution.  But it also got rid of all console right upper corner messages thingies for all mods including ND (eg "you are fucked", "your knots feel loose finally" etc).  Will keep testing.  Log attached, seems like its a mess, not sure how to interpret

Papyrus.0.log 676.54 kB · 0 downloads loadorder.txt 4.55 kB · 0 downloads modlist.txt 8.98 kB · 0 downloads

 

this is meaningless if your testing environment was invalid.

 

1. did you install the latest mod version with the Form 43 ESP first and did a playtest at Location X?

2. did you then install the latest mod version with Form 44 and did the same test at the same Location X with the same actors etc?

3. ofc nothing else can change, no other mods installed/uninstalled and all MCM options are the same. 
 

if not, all of this can be pure coincidence. Since you played last I changed some stuff about the timers so maybe this is the improvement and not the changed ESP.

Just want to make sure here before we draw false conclusions.

 

as for the log:
I think your MFG console is not installed correctly, but I only parsed through the log fast since... I m tired and got to bed now

 

 

[gamer098]

3 hours ago, Nymra said:

 

thats not the furnitures but an incorrect setup of your ZAP Framework bodyslide files. 

Ohhh - is there a group filter I need to be including when running bodyslide? Or is the correct setup described anywhere?

[Rosvinar]

4 hours ago, gamer098 said:

Ohhh - is there a group filter I need to be including when running bodyslide? Or is the correct setup described anywhere?

if your in bodyslide i think the zap filter is under unassigned?

[no_way]

15 hours ago, Nymra said:

 

this is meaningless if your testing environment was invalid.

 

1. did you install the latest mod version with the Form 43 ESP first and did a playtest at Location X?

2. did you then install the latest mod version with Form 44 and did the same test at the same Location X with the same actors etc?

3. ofc nothing else can change, no other mods installed/uninstalled and all MCM options are the same. 
 

if not, all of this can be pure coincidence. Since you played last I changed some stuff about the timers so maybe this is the improvement and not the changed ESP.

Just want to make sure here before we draw false conclusions.

 

as for the log:
I think your MFG console is not installed correctly, but I only parsed through the log fast since... I m tired and got to bed now

 

 

Yup same enviro literally back to back no other changes (in the dungeon of alternate start)

 

mfg console fix is out of whack?  I’ll take a peek but all it’s functionality has been fine 

[Nymra]

36 minutes ago, no_way said:

Yup same enviro literally back to back no other changes (in the dungeon of alternate start)

 

mfg console fix is out of whack?  I’ll take a peek but all it’s functionality has been fine 

 

nice. thx for the feedback. 

now I m curious if other ppl also experience improvements by simply using form 44 esp.

would justifiy a note in the mod download and the ESP form 44 as optional download. 

and I m not really interested in details, I mean its skyrim after all, so if it helps, it helps.

would just be nice if somebody would update the ESPs of the new updates, since I do not have SSE CK setup. 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Nymra

[WaterRabbit]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:41 PM, Rosvinar said:

All im saying is the Gal with the minimal load order over here has no issues.

 

and all the people who have mod conflicts with this and that mod, or issues with compatibility For DD, babo or other addons Which are running via SL, are the ones seemingly timing out all the time.

 

Also if you play vanilla Skyrim you will have no mod compatibility or conflicts. 

[WaterRabbit]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:15 PM, bnub345 said:

 

The only way form 43 plugins can cause an issue is if they contain different info from what the SE engine expects. Luckily for us (in this case), Beth were lazy bastards when they converted the game from x32 to x64, and did the bare minimum of changes to make the game work. As such, the only file headers that actually changed were:

• MATO
• STAT
• WATR
• WTHR
• WEAP
• (sub) - VMAD

Let's take a look at the ND esp now. The only ones on this list are STAT and WEAP. Looking at the STAT entries, the actual part that changed is DNAM (Directional Material), which has a Null Ref. Converting the form 43 > form 44 in the CK and looking at it again... still has a Null Ref. So nothing changed. Now on to the WEAP entries. There are two weapons in the esp, and the field that changed was CRDT (Critical Data). Here we see - oh no! - an error message. Except the weapons aren't actually used anywhere, so it doesn't matter. I guess if you added the weapon with the console, attacked someone, and rolled a crit, your game might crash? Or maybe nothing would happen, I'm not sure how that particular interaction works out. *EDIT: just tested this, no crash* As it happens, you will get the same error converting the esp because Bethesda goofed on the CRDT conversion and it doesn't work. You have to use CK fixes to patch it.

 

So tl:dr, converting this esp to form 44 doesn't change anything. 

 

I have no idea how DAR could be related to form 43/44 crashes, it's an skse plugin and most DAR mods are just animations and text files. There isn't even an esp in there. I will repeat myself and say again that Bethesda has many form 43 files in their esms for SE, so if they caused crashes literally everyone would experience them all the time. 

 

Converting the plugin exposes you to bugs in the CK, so don't do it at all without CK fixes. Also it will strip any non-esm master files unless you have the proper setup, which WILL cause crashes. As I said in the first place, there is no reason to convert plugins unless you know what you are doing and you have a specific reason to do so.

 

 

So the whole discussion about 43 vs 44 misses the point in my opinion.  What I post above was directly from Mod Organizer 2's warning about 43 mods.  The relevant part of that quote is "...but their presence can be an indication that a mod was not properly ported to SSE and so can potentially have additional issues."

 

If the mod is being developed under LE and not SE there is likely to be some issues and it will likely be compounded with version 1.6.353.  Version 1.6.353 was updated on 11/11 last year and it is only recently that many of the core utilities have been upgrade as well (.Net Script Framework being a noticeable exception).  However, SE was released almost 6 years ago, so it does baffle me why so many LL mods are still being developed under LE.  {Creature Framework, Devious Devices [Assets, Contraptions, Expansion, Integration], Devious Carriages, Deviously Cursed Loot, Laura's Bondage Shop -- just to name a few of the common ones.}

 

I agree that just converting a mod in the CC to form 44 could introduce unattended problems.  But a form 43 mod that claims to be for SE is an indication that it also might have issues as well.

 

BTW, between LE and SE I have almost 7,000 hours playtime with numerous full completion runs (Legacy of the Dragonborn in the mod list should be a dead giveaway).  I rebuild my mod list every time I start a new game.  Gameplay/Immersion/Body/Quest mods are almost always a different set from one playing to another.  Normally I would debug a mod like this to get it working correctly, but there is so much new content in AE, it was simpler to just go back to a previously tested set of mods.  Once I have played through the 73 some odd mods from AE, I will look at puzzling out why this mod wasn't performing as expected for me.

The idea of turning teleporting back on in SexLab sounds like a solid one.  The only other mod that seems to lag for me is DCL.  

 

That being said, I still think the default behavior packages of the attackers need to be overridden when this mod's scenes are running.

[bnub345]

8 hours ago, WaterRabbit said:

If the mod is being developed under LE and not SE there is likely to be some issues and it will likely be compounded with version 1.6.353.  Version 1.6.353 was updated on 11/11 last year and it is only recently that many of the core utilities have been upgrade as well (.Net Script Framework being a noticeable exception).  However, SE was released almost 6 years ago, so it does baffle me why so many LL mods are still being developed under LE.  {Creature Framework, Devious Devices [Assets, Contraptions, Expansion, Integration], Devious Carriages, Deviously Cursed Loot, Laura's Bondage Shop -- just to name a few of the common ones.}

 

I agree that just converting a mod in the CC to form 44 could introduce unattended problems.  But a form 43 mod that claims to be for SE is an indication that it also might have issues as well.

 

This isn't really true. I wrote a blog post about it with the link in my sig. Basically, form 43 plugins are literally and exactly the same as form 44 except for the previously mentioned headers. And the game version has nothing to do with the game plugins, that only matters for things trying to access the executable, i.e. dll plugins. A lot of SE mods still have form 43 plugins because nothing in their file structure was changed by the SE update, so there is no reason to update the plugin.

 

All of this is why I am very skeptical that converting Naked Defeat to form 44 will improve performance in any way. Comparing the form 43 and 44 plugins in SSEEdit only changed a whole 2 entries, as far as I can tell. I guess we can't know 100% what the CK does exactly during conversion without reverse engineering the code, but I doubt it does anything more than changing only the data it needs to for SE compatibility.  

[Nymra]

22 minutes ago, bnub345 said:

 

This isn't really true. I wrote a blog post about it with the link in my sig. Basically, form 43 plugins are literally and exactly the same as form 44 except for the previously mentioned headers. And the game version has nothing to do with the game plugins, that only matters for things trying to access the executable, i.e. dll plugins. A lot of SE mods still have form 43 plugins because nothing in their file structure was changed by the SE update, so there is no reason to update the plugin.

 

All of this is why I am very skeptical that converting Naked Defeat to form 44 will improve performance in any way. Comparing the form 43 and 44 plugins in SSEEdit only changed a whole 2 entries, as far as I can tell. I guess we can't know 100% what the CK does exactly during conversion without reverse engineering the code, but I doubt it does anything more than changing only the data it needs to for SE compatibility.  

 

8 hours ago, WaterRabbit said:

 

 

So the whole discussion about 43 vs 44 misses the point in my opinion.  What I post above was directly from Mod Organizer 2's warning about 43 mods.  The relevant part of that quote is "...but their presence can be an indication that a mod was not properly ported to SSE and so can potentially have additional issues."

 

If the mod is being developed under LE and not SE there is likely to be some issues and it will likely be compounded with version 1.6.353.  Version 1.6.353 was updated on 11/11 last year and it is only recently that many of the core utilities have been upgrade as well (.Net Script Framework being a noticeable exception).  However, SE was released almost 6 years ago, so it does baffle me why so many LL mods are still being developed under LE.  {Creature Framework, Devious Devices [Assets, Contraptions, Expansion, Integration], Devious Carriages, Deviously Cursed Loot, Laura's Bondage Shop -- just to name a few of the common ones.}

 

I agree that just converting a mod in the CC to form 44 could introduce unattended problems.  But a form 43 mod that claims to be for SE is an indication that it also might have issues as well.

 

BTW, between LE and SE I have almost 7,000 hours playtime with numerous full completion runs (Legacy of the Dragonborn in the mod list should be a dead giveaway).  I rebuild my mod list every time I start a new game.  Gameplay/Immersion/Body/Quest mods are almost always a different set from one playing to another.  Normally I would debug a mod like this to get it working correctly, but there is so much new content in AE, it was simpler to just go back to a previously tested set of mods.  Once I have played through the 73 some odd mods from AE, I will look at puzzling out why this mod wasn't performing as expected for me.

The idea of turning teleporting back on in SexLab sounds like a solid one.  The only other mod that seems to lag for me is DCL.  

 

That being said, I still think the default behavior packages of the attackers need to be overridden when this mod's scenes are running.

 

as much as I like to get some insight here, for me in the end it is relevant if I get significant user feedback that form 44 performs better than 43. 

given the fact that it seems relativly easy to convert the ESP and given that a user is willing to support me in converting new versions I will start to provide the form 44 ESP as "Extras" Download for interested users. 
If it helps it helps and the reasons for that are less relevant for me at this point. I m only glad that I can (maybe) focus on other stuff instead, because this was one of the major issues in the past months. 
I ll still make an update trying to give some options for debugging and adjusting the Naked Defeat Timers, but I m also looking forward to be able to focus on new features again.

 

At this point I would kindly ask to not press this (nonetheless very interesting) discussion further since I think all things are said and ppl can choose for themselves on using Form 43 and 44 in the future and I m ok with that. 

 

thx for everybody involved for sharing infos and testing and craaj for the converted ESP for testing.

please continue to give feedback if from 44 change is improving things for you tho 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Nymra

[WaterRabbit]

5 hours ago, bnub345 said:

 

This isn't really true. I wrote a blog post about it with the link in my sig. Basically, form 43 plugins are literally and exactly the same as form 44 except for the previously mentioned headers. And the game version has nothing to do with the game plugins, that only matters for things trying to access the executable, i.e. dll plugins. A lot of SE mods still have form 43 plugins because nothing in their file structure was changed by the SE update, so there is no reason to update the plugin.

 

All of this is why I am very skeptical that converting Naked Defeat to form 44 will improve performance in any way. Comparing the form 43 and 44 plugins in SSEEdit only changed a whole 2 entries, as far as I can tell. I guess we can't know 100% what the CK does exactly during conversion without reverse engineering the code, but I doubt it does anything more than changing only the data it needs to for SE compatibility.  

 

I guess you forgot to read the very first sentence before you quoted me.  As my point has little to do with form 43 vs 44.

[Nessa]

Just had a chance to check out the "totally SE" SE version. ?

 

Timeout was exactly on time. I think the first I've ever seen that occur before! Everything happened like precise clockwork. ? What I know of Form 44's it -shouldn't- make a difference, but there it is. ? This was only one test though I'll do a ton more and see if it was just a rare fluke. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Nessa

[Rosvinar]

1 hour ago, Nessa said:

Just had a chance to check out the "totally SE" SE version. ?

 

Timeout was exactly on time. I think the first I've ever seen that occur before! Everything happened like precise clockwork. ? What I know of Form 44's it -shouldn't- make a difference, but there it is. ? This was only one test though I'll do a ton more and see if it was just a rare fluke. 

Nessa pls... pls dont say this. Pls tell me its not true.

 

your going to make me sound like an arrogant so and so who gets to say i told you so.

 

due to the witchcraft and wizardry like nature that ESV operates in with its mysterious nonsensical Form versions.?

 

honestly these days with how skyrim modding works I'm starting to think That mods either work or don't work depending on how you just look at them, or whether or not there in a good mood the day you load them up. Its as though there sentient and only choose when they want to work half the time.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Rosvinar

[Nessa]

13 hours ago, Rosvinar said:

Nessa pls... pls dont say this. Pls tell me its not true.

 

your going to make me sound like an arrogant so and so who gets to say i told you so.

 

due to the witchcraft and wizardry like nature that ESV operates in with its mysterious nonsensical Form versions.?

 

honestly these days with how skyrim modding works I'm starting to think That mods either work or don't work depending on how you just look at them, or whether or not there in a good mood the day you load them up. Its as though there sentient and only choose when they want to work half the time.

 

More than likely it was a fluke. I'll have a chance to do some more testing tonight. I had to mention it though as I've never seen it run THAT fast before. ?

 

Form 44's shouldn't really have an effect on scripts in any way that I'm aware of, aside from using information not available to Form 43's. Also, merely saving the mod in the SE CK doesn't... -quite- make it a full Form 44 either. (My understanding is there are some errors that don't get fixed this way. Though that might be mitigated with the CK fixes and extensions.) This is mostly apparent on mods that want to be esl's. Case in point: eye mods. Quite have few have been out there and they saved the mod in the CK. BUT... you can see those mods can't be made into a full esl without issues. Whereas if you rebuild the mod totally in SE, no problem. (Doesn't really apply to ND of course, that has too much to be a light mod.)

 

EDIT: This might have been brought up already, but in case not.... there are some Bethsoft assets that are still form 43 as well. So 43 alone isn't necessarily a problem for SE. (I figure a lot of the problem is MO2 whines about it. ?)

 

Back on topic, the Simple Slavery part is working perfectly and has been for awhile. (Not sure I mentioned that before.) I... just wish there was somewhere else to go. ? (SE doesn't have a lot of options that are... workable for me. ?) The ND destinations have all worked in every test so far at least!

Edited July 29, 2022 by Nessa

[procyonlotor]

Sometimes I get stuck in a crawling-on-all-fours state which persists across game saves, even ones before the always-crawl bug popped up. Anyone have ideas about what might be happening or how to get out of the crawl state?

[LesboIsBesto]

downloaded this mod ages ago (4.31) for both LE & SE, never got around to installin either tho. is dat version of the mod fine to install or should I get 4.81? weird question sure but I seem to have better luck with older mod versions than newer ones, plus idk how much the required mods have updated either so usin mods I got around the same time seems safer

[monsta88]

Hi Nymra,

 

a little feedback about Naked Drowning:

 

I use SPERG (a complete skill tree replacer) and at level 50 Alteration, you get Water breathing as a permanent ability.

 

It seems that ND's drowning feature just checks for armor vs swimming, so while I should have no issue under water, I still get damaged. I can't test it with just vanilla Water breathing, so I don't know if my issue is just coming from SPERG.

 

I'm ok, if ND is not compatible with SPERG, but it should work with vanilla Water breathing. Anyway for now I just disable this feature.

 

Peace,

M

 

[pihwht]

3 hours ago, monsta88 said:

Hi Nymra,

 

a little feedback about Naked Drowning:

 

I use SPERG (a complete skill tree replacer) and at level 50 Alteration, you get Water breathing as a permanent ability.

 

It seems that ND's drowning feature just checks for armor vs swimming, so while I should have no issue under water, I still get damaged. I can't test it with just vanilla Water breathing, so I don't know if my issue is just coming from SPERG.

 

I'm ok, if ND is not compatible with SPERG, but it should work with vanilla Water breathing. Anyway for now I just disable this feature.

 

Peace,

M

 

Amulet of Waterbreathing gives the same result: armor-water-drowning.

[Nymra]

2 hours ago, pihwht said:

Amulet of Waterbreathing gives the same result: armor-water-drowning.

  

5 hours ago, monsta88 said:

Hi Nymra,

 

a little feedback about Naked Drowning:

 

I use SPERG (a complete skill tree replacer) and at level 50 Alteration, you get Water breathing as a permanent ability.

 

It seems that ND's drowning feature just checks for armor vs swimming, so while I should have no issue under water, I still get damaged. I can't test it with just vanilla Water breathing, so I don't know if my issue is just coming from SPERG.

 

I'm ok, if ND is not compatible with SPERG, but it should work with vanilla Water breathing. Anyway for now I just disable this feature.

 

Peace,

M

 

 

I currently do not plan to consider these kind of things.

I wont even start on "realism" here (what worth is water breathing when you cant move in water due to your armor? -> would require a speed change instead but that is overengineered).

 

Basically the feature is meant for players who want to have an immersive way to be forced to swing naked or in light/bikini armor. if you use stuff like water breething you can just disable the feature. 

[mikesolo1975]

thanks for the amazing work

this mod is compatible whit Sanguine Debauchery enhanced: SD+ ?

 

[Rosvinar]

54 minutes ago, mikesolo1975 said:

thanks for the amazing work

this mod is compatible whit Sanguine Debauchery enhanced: SD+ ?

 

 

If your asking if its compatible, i'm pretty sure it is, i think there's even settings for the integration in the mcm.

[mikesolo1975]

1 hour ago, Rosvinar said:

 

If your asking if its compatible, i'm pretty sure it is, i think there's even settings for the integration in the mcm.

ok thanks for your help and time

[Nymra]

6 hours ago, mikesolo1975 said:

ok thanks for your help and time

disable SD+ combat defeat feature. apart of the fact that it is broken and bad, it will interfere with ND.

everything else is compatible (+ what rosvinar said)

Edited July 31, 2022 by Nymra

[Nessa]

More in... Adventures in AE! ? (Everyone: NOOO! ?? ?)

 

I've done a ton of tests and ....... things are weirdly faster with the Form 44 version (read: actually this isn't necessarily true as I didn't do enough testing with the Form 43 version), but there's a twist! ?

• In a worldspace: 12 seconds of wait... is about 12 seconds.
• In a cell: 12 seconds of wait... is randomly anywhere from 24 to 60 seconds! ?

I'd think it would be the opposite. The only thing I can figure presently is it's the search radius. Much larger for cells. I'll try turning that way down and see if that has an effect for future testing.