toys Toys&Love LE & SE

[VirginMarie]

7 hours ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

I don't have any balancing feedback, but I fiddled around with creating a toy box for 

https://www.loverslab.com/blogs/entry/11270-kziitdfeitshset-bdsmmaid/, I figured you might be interested in feedback for that as well.

 

Absolutely! Feedback for anything.

 

Is your toy box going be something you publish?

 

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The most challenging part was to not make minor mistakes, and I failed by putting a wrist toy in the arm FormList,

and I had the body toy proclaim to use slot 32 instead of 58.

These issues were quite hard to pin-point, so I'd like to suggest to add an integrity check functionality for ToyBoxes in the MCM checking

whether Toys are in the wrong FormList or lack the correct slot mask.

 

I admit to making these same mistakes often enough myself, particularly the "wrong slot in the nif" one. But once its bitten you once you tend not to forget its the first thing to check if that toy is showing up invisible.

 

I'd love to be able to do an integrity check but I don't think its possible. There's no papyrus function to look into the nif for your toy and see the partition (slot used). The reason you place your toys in FormLists for each type, is to tell Toys where they belong, and also if you want them exposed to the user. It can't know this on its own, thus it can't integrity check it. Such integrity check would have to check also the armor item, and the armoraddon, both of which cannot be accessed by papyrus.

 

What I CAN do is start building a troubleshooting section. I've already added this to the guide.

 

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Aside from that, a non-blocking version of WaitToysLoad would be nice, a CheckToysLoad if you will, for Mod authors to use in their MCM as well.

 

By not blocking, do you mean return value of true/false, instead of a wait? Easy to include. I'm curious though, to know your use case, so I can make sure I'm understanding and get this right. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by VirginMarie

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

5 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Is your toy box going be something you publish?

 

When it is finished, and if Kziidt gives permission, I'll do so. I'm playing on SE with 3BAv2 and for getting to play around with toyboxes, I took some shortcuts, with some parts of the original SE conversion, fixes in the support thread, used the DD render devices as a starting stone etc.

Then there are bodyslide related issue: I had to fix the clipping of the gloves, I also want to split the piercings from the body to make them their own toys.

All my bodyslide knowledge comes from Sun's excellent tutorials https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZa3v-a_gOrARmZNk7Bo_ntPUZCLVPnSX but unfortunately, I think I would need her to release more episodes for some of the more advanced things. That said, per  coincidence, https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/17865-kziitdfeitshset-bdsm-maid-3ba-bodyslide-conversion/ was just released, so maybe all these issues have been solved there.

 

And then there is the issue of the Gags: Kziidt provided custom DD scripts for the Gags and I haven't gotten around looking into their actual purpose. I fear, the scripts are there to do some MFG-related things, so Toys' MouthOpen Keyword might just no cut it. And my knowledge of MFG is basically that it's bugged on SE and makes characters have stupid facial expressions.

Given the astonishing quality of the whole set, and since I'd probably only support 3BAv2, I'd really like to sort these issues out before asking an artist for their permission: If I was an artist, and somebody would request permissions for a half-assed conversion, I would get angry.

Long story short, I am not satisfied with the current quality and made the ToyBox for another mod I am currently working on, so unfortunately, I don't think solving these issues will be my primary modding focus.

 

Also as a general side-note, I am beyond confused by mod related drama/conflict and appalled by the destructive irrationality displayed in some cases.

While I'd argue that it turned out to be a good thing in the case of Devious Daedra since there is Toys now, the City Bondage debacle just resulted with two mods less on LL, and I'd would like avoid these issues, if were to publish mods.

 

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I admit to making these same mistakes often enough myself, particularly the "wrong slot in the nif" one. But once its bitten you once you tend not to forget its the first thing to check if that toy is showing up invisible.

I actually made this mistake only once, because I forgot that I had to change the partition for every mesh in bodyslide. However, since I was aware of the issue in general from back in my Fallout 4 days, I found it rather obvious to conclude what caused the rendering error. The issue that was hard to find, it that I misclicked in xEdit and had the wrong slot in the ARMO entry. Unfortunately, I don't have the logs anymore, so I can't exactly tell you how the framework broke. But since everything works now, I am pretty sure that everything was my fault, and I am happy to tell you that your log entries have been very helpful to pin-point the issues.

 

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I'd love to be able to do an integrity check but I don't think its possible. There's no papyrus function to look into the nif for your toy and see the partition (slot used). The reason you place your toys in FormLists for each type, is to tell Toys where they belong, and also if you want them exposed to the user. It can't know this on its own, thus it can't integrity check it. Such integrity check would have to check also the armor item, and the armoraddon, both of which cannot be accessed by papyrus.

 

Maybe that's an SKSE vs. SKEE thing and maybe my code isn't robust, but in the other mod I mentioned above, I did this to track the items that were unequipped by Toys:

Armor toy = Toys.GetToy(modShort, toyType, box)

if toy 

  int slotMask = toy.GetSlotMask()

  form willBeReplaced = PlayerRef.GetWornForm(slotMask)

  int errorCode = Toys.HandleToy(modShort, PlayerRef, toy)

  if errorCode == 1

      ; Note down toy for later removal

      ; Note down old form for re-equipping afterwards

My suggestion is, to iterate over the FormLists and verify that that the result of GetSlotMask matches with the FormList and the Keywords from Toys.

 

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By not blocking, do you mean return value of true/false, instead of a wait? Easy to include. I'm curious though, to know your use case, so I can make sure I'm understanding and get this right. 

Yes, I mean the boolean. The use case is: In my MCM you can select your favorite ToyBox ("box" above), and I would have liked to grey-out/replaced the menu option while Toys is not done with registration.

Thinking about it, I think one could argue, that this setting would be nice to have in the Toys MCM instead, but maybe someone prefers different boxes for different mods.

Edited May 28, 2021 by (\x.x x) (\x.x x)
Typos, formatting, grammar

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

I just remembered, that I wanted to complement you for your efforts on documenting the framework and for the continuously high quality of your code: It was really pleasant to work with it, even the internal ToyLibs was an easy read.

And because everything went so smoothly, I kept on expanding my mod without giving you feedback until, I ran into something, where I suspected you might be able to do better.

Basically, I am sorry: I should've lauded your framework earlier. ?

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

so Toys' MouthOpen Keyword might just no cut it

 

Possible for sure. MouthOpen keyword is getting an improvement for next update, it will have an MCM option to control the size of the opening. This should allow fixing of troubles that people have reported, where certain bodies or something else, are doing funky things to the face.

 

1 hour ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

City Bondage debacle just resulted with two mods less on LL

 

I'm not familiar with what happened. What the heck happened?

 

1 hour ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

Maybe that's an SKSE vs. SKEE thing and maybe my code isn't robust, but in the other mod I mentioned above, I did this to track the items that were unequipped by Toys:

 

I think an integrity check would need to check all things listed in the below... (its the troubleshooting item I added to the guide). Can't do this using papyrus.

 

1. Why is my toy invisible?

Spoiler

The most common causes:

• slot (partition) within the nif for your toy, is not the same slot assigned in your Armor and/or ArmorAddon
• the slot you've assigned in your Armor item, is not the same as the slot you've used on the ArmorAddon
• the slot you've used in the above, is not correct for the ToyType you've assigned (the ToyType keyword)
• the ToxBox FormList that you've placed your toy into, is not the matching ToyType you've assigned to the toy

 

1 hour ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

Yes, I mean the boolean. The use case is: In my MCM you can select your favorite ToyBox ("box" above), and I would have liked to grey-out/replaced the menu option while Toys is not done with registration.

Thinking about it, I think one could argue, that this setting would be nice to have in the Toys MCM instead, but maybe someone prefers different boxes for different mods.

 

I will add a boolean version of the WaitToysLoad() for next release.

 

I agree that a "Preferred Toy Box" MCM setting within Toys is a good idea. It would be for other mods to use, but could also become part of the GetToy() function where the current "prefer" feature defaults to this MCM setting when there are no toys already worn to gauge preference by. Will add this to my list as at least high priority after V1, if not before.

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

I just remembered, that I wanted to complement you for your efforts on documenting the framework and for the continuously high quality of your code: It was really pleasant to work with it, even the internal ToyLibs was an easy read.

And because everything went so smoothly, I kept on expanding my mod without giving you feedback until, I ran into something, where I suspected you might be able to do better.

Basically, I am sorry: I should've lauded your framework earlier. ?

 

Thanks !

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

I'm not familiar with what happened. What the heck happened?

 

 

The result was that the author pulled their files, and that PB's Devious Guards is no longer available.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, or speculate, so please judge yourself: https://www.loverslab.com/topic/74247-city-bondage/

 

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

I think an integrity check would need to check all things listed in the below... (its the troubleshooting item I added to the guide).

 

I appreciate the troubleshooting guide, but I have to disagree on that point: A test never proves the absence of bugs, it proves the presence of them. So a partial integrity check is exactly as useful as any test ever written for any program: It finds the bugs it is supposed to find.

 

That said, I don't think this needs to be a Toys feature. Any mod can perform the checks I proposed, so if I create another ToyBox, or more likely, if I extract the

piercings as their own toys, I might as well create another small mod that performs these tests after WaitToysLoad. So one can use it during development and disable it afterwards.

[VirginMarie]

Toyful Temptations 

 

Great news! Scrab has released Toyful Temptations, which distributes toys and keys.... SE/LE 

[Nazzzgul666]

I still didn't have the time to really play with toys, but one little thing i'd like to be able to change that isn't: 
There is an option to fondle yourself after orgasm/when aroused and i'd like to turn it off for orgasms but keep it for aroused.
Not the biggest impact for sure, but still...

Something i just remembered... pchs is still around on LL, he's the author of immersive plugs that you already used for SLAV i think. He also made the original slaverun which included some anal beads that i think would fit here nicely... (they are quite colorful ) As the original Slaverun is pretty much dead and always was quite buggy, you still might ask him for permission to use the assets that seem worth it. Even more so if you can get permission to his belly stretcher from wolfclub, although that thing might look a bit cruel...

Edited May 31, 2021 by Nazzzgul666

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

I still didn't have the time to really play with toys, but one little thing i'd like to be able to change that isn't: 
There is an option to fondle yourself after orgasm/when aroused and i'd like to turn it off for orgasms but keep it for aroused.
Not the biggest impact for sure, but still...

 

Well if I were gonna do that, I'd make it 2 chance sliders... "Chance at High Arousal" / "Chance after Orgasm"

But do you know it cancels out, by doing pretty much anything? Jump, sprint, draw weapon, any other animation starts or was already active, like crawl, blind, and arm bindings. Is it because you are a fondle connoisseur who wants to savor it? Are you into self denial?

 

While we are at it, what impact should fondle have on arousal? Your answer to this will help reveal the truth for my above questions.

 

I will do it, just specially for you, if you spell and grammar check every single bit of text in Toys, Toy Story, and SLaVE! Just like you did for the first quest step of Toy Story already. I'm pretty sure you have a fetish for doing that anyhow, and I mean the spelling, not the fondle.

Edited May 31, 2021 by VirginMarie

[Nazzzgul666]

5 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

 

Well if I were gonna do that, I'd make it 2 chance sliders... "Chance at High Arousal" / "Chance after Orgasm"

But do you know it cancels out, by doing pretty much anything? Jump, sprint, draw weapon, any other animation starts or was already active, like crawl, blind, and arm bindings. Is it because you are a fondle connoisseur who wants to savor it? Are you into self denial?

 

While we are at it, what impact should fondle have on arousal? Your answer to this will help reveal the truth for my above questions.

 

I will do it, just specially for you, if you spell and grammar check every single bit of text in Toys, Toy Story, and SLaVE! Just like you did for the first quest step of Toy Story already. I'm pretty sure you have a fetish for doing that anyhow, and I mean the spelling, not the fondle.

Lol ❤️ I mean... you're not entirely wrong but... i have no idea how to check text other than playing and with that method, i guess you'll push out text faster than i can check it at my current rate. 

Speaking of text... do you plan to replace the messages about how much arousal was added? DD hasn't exactly the most creative texts but i still liked them quite some. Right now i'm way too tired to come up with anything and not sure if i got your lore right... but i'll think about it and post stuff when i have a nice line?^^

[VirginMarie]

58 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Lol ❤️ I mean... you're not entirely wrong but... i have no idea how to check text other than playing and with that method, i guess you'll push out text faster than i can check it at my current rate. 

 

If we were doing it for real, I'd be able to dump out the text. Thing is, that loses context so you still need to be familiar with what's happening in game. For Toy Story mercplatypus it taking care of text/story so I don't think you will be finding much, its all ready well taken care of. SLaVE is probably imperfect and would be a huge job. Toys I've not had any scrutiny on but it also does not do quest stuff so its text is limited to the pop up tips, notifications, and the big thing is all the descriptions on the toys. So of all the things, its those toy descriptions, which are also in Classic Toy Box.

 

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Speaking of text... do you plan to replace the messages about how much arousal was added? DD hasn't exactly the most creative texts but i still liked them quite some. Right now i'm way too tired to come up with anything and not sure if i got your lore right... but i'll think about it and post stuff when i have a nice line?^^

 

Right now arousal notifications (most notifications really) are very utilitarian. I'm not sure how to give it some lore-ish feel. The thing with notifications is that if you make the text go beyond very short phrases, it becomes that stupid tiny font that is un-readable for many. Right now it just says this...

 

Arousal <increased/decreased> by <99> to <99>

 

Bet you can't make it better!

Oh ya, and you can turn it off in the MCM.

Edited May 31, 2021 by VirginMarie

[Nazzzgul666]

I mean... for debugging/balancing questions, those messages are fine, yes. To enjoy playing with them i thought about something like "The <size> plug in you seems to throb." ....or, with a bit more lore, "throbs with energy from Y". In that direction.^^

[VirginMarie]

11 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

I mean... for debugging/balancing questions, those messages are fine, yes. To enjoy playing with them i thought about something like "The <size> plug in you seems to throb." ....or, with a bit more lore, "throbs with energy from Y". In that direction.^^

 

In Toys, arousal increase is very different from DD, and works like so...

Any toy may or may not have the Arousal Effect. Those with the effect have a value, so a plug might be 4 or 5, while a slightly arousing tight collar might have a 1. Toys uses the sum of all worn toys with the arousal effect to calculate the increase.

 

That notification therefor needs to be very generic. There could be plugs, a nipple toy, and 3 other toys, all contributing. DD uses events instead, where as Toys sees it as the arousal is the cause of the event, like a fondle, rather than the event causes the arousal.

 

Decrease is simpler, its driven by an event. In Toys itself, only the Spontaneous orgasm decreases it, using a somewhat randomized amount. Other mods decrease it independently because that's where the action is happening, but may make a call to Toys to get it done.

[Nazzzgul666]

2 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Any toy may or may not have the Arousal Effect. Those with the effect have a value, so a plug might be 4 or 5, while a slightly arousing tight collar might have a 1. Toys uses the sum of all worn toys with the arousal effect to calculate the increase.

 

Hmmm... again, not the most urgent and it would be interesting how it works out with balance stuff, like getting out of devices that require arousal but... For things like tight collars, i could imagine it initially decreasing and only after wearing it some time or maybe having orgasms while wearing will cause you to get used to it and possibly even requiring it/lowering arousal gain if it's missing. However, that might as well be an additional mod, not necessarily in the framework.

 

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That notification therefor needs to be very generic. There could be plugs, a nipple toy, and 3 other toys, all contributing. DD uses events instead, where as Toys sees it as the arousal is the cause of the event, like a fondle, rather than the event causes the arousal.

 

Not sure if i get that part... i mean... a plug increases arousal regardless if it's low or high, right? So far i'd still say it's the plug that causes arousal, not the other way around. 
I get that the combination changes things but... well. For once, imho you don't need to be able to calculate how much exactly you got by the message. It doesn't need to mention everything. Just what fits. And of course there could be different messages depending on what you wear, including combinations.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Nazzzgul666

[VirginMarie]

7 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Hmmm... again, not the most urgent and it would be interesting how it works out with balance stuff, like getting out of devices that require arousal but... For things like tight collars, i could imagine it initially decreasing and only after wearing it some time or maybe having orgasms while wearing will cause you to get used to it and possibly even requiring it/lowering arousal gain if it's missing. However, that might as well be an additional mod, not necessarily in the framework.

 

Ya my example of the tight collar is SLaVE. It has collars that cause asphyxiation when they melt due to arousal.

 

7 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Not sure if i get that part... i mean... a plug increases arousal regardless if it's low or high, right? So far i'd still say it's the plug that causes arousal, not the other way around. 
I get that the combination changes things but... well. For once, imho you don't need to be able to calculate how much exactly you got by the message. It doesn't need to mention everything. Just what fits. And of course there could be different messages depending on what you wear, including combinations.

 

Let's say there's 8 toys (of the 15 possible slots) in use, and 4 might have the arousal effect. So 4 toys are contributing to arousal increase.

 

Yes it would be possible to get messages that check based on what's worn, but it would get very complicated... I could see there are 4 toys and pick the one with the highest arousal strength, randomizing if say 2 of them both have a the same 5 strength. Then I could check the ToyType (the slot), and know its in the slot that a vaginal plug belongs. However, I can't call it a plug in the notification because I don't know for sure that it's a plug. I know the name of the toy, but not that it's a plug. The mod author could have put something called chastity piercing there, Toys won't know this is not really a plug. We could say "you feel your vagina tingle" or "You neck twitches", but not "the plug causes...." or "your collar causes". See wat I mean?

 

The mod responsible for that toy could handle custom messaging, probably is where that sort of thing should be done. The framework could also have a whole feature meant for supporting custom lore notifications, but it would likely want to connect to more than arousal, and not occur at the frequency of the arousal increase.

 

So I'd say you have a feature idea here. But the arousal increase notification needs to use very generic text, and is in fact really stuck being a debug message that one can turn off.

[Nazzzgul666]

I... see, yes... but i have to say, i don't like it. Would it be terribly complicated to make the tys having keywords so you can easily tell if it's a plug or something else? I'm not only thinking about messages here, also things like a patch for FillHerUp that blocks cum from flowing out when plugged would be... impossible i guess without such. I understand you want a different approach than DD and i appritiate that, but some features are pretty pretty good.^^

Edited June 1, 2021 by Nazzzgul666

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

14 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

I... see, yes... but i have to say, i don't like it. Would it be terribly complicated to make the tys having keywords so you can easily tell if it's a plug or something else? I'm not only thinking about messages here, also things like a patch for FillHerUp that blocks cum from flowing out when plugged would be... impossible i guess without such. I understand you want a different approach than DD and i appritiate that, but some features are pretty pretty good.^^

How is it that ToysType_Vaginal [KYWD:XX000816] && ToysBlock_Vaginal [KYWD:XX00082C] is not sufficient?

 

[VirginMarie]

15 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

I... see, yes... but i have to say, i don't like it. Would it be terribly complicated to make the tys having keywords so you can easily tell if it's a plug or something else? I'm not only thinking about messages here, also things like a patch for FillHerUp that blocks cum from flowing out when plugged would be... impossible i guess without such. I understand you want a different approach than DD and i appritiate that, but some features are pretty pretty good.^^

 

The same concept and problem is within DD. When SLaV used DD, It had several devices that did not fit the generic term in DD messaging. Like it would say the "belt" is doing such and such, but my device was a "Virgin Chastity Piercing", hardly fitting the word belt. So the mod author needs to give it the term, not the framework. Essentially its the "short generic name" when you are not going to name the toy name in full. This can't be a fixed set of keywords. It would be text that the mod author would have to fill in. Or better yet, we use the actual toy name. So if I did a lore friendly messaging system for mod authors to use, it would need one of those approaches.

 

I'd also be tempted to use something other than notifications. Not pop up message boxes that make you pause. Not notifications that are tiny text if you say something that's more than a very short phrase, but text showing up in the bottom center of your screen, just like dialogue. There's a way to do that and I'd use it.

[Nazzzgul666]

13 minutes ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

How is it that ToysType_Vaginal [KYWD:XX000816] && ToysBlock_Vaginal [KYWD:XX00082C] is not sufficient?

 

A chastity piercing isn't the same as a plug...

[VirginMarie]

 

@Nazzzgul666said.. things like a patch for FillHerUp that blocks cum from flowing out when plugged would be... impossible i guess without such

 

Sorry forgot to reply to your key point here. For that there's no problem for Toys. It already has the keywords needed...

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by VirginMarie

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

39 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

A chastity piercing isn't the same as a plug...

True.

[Nazzzgul666]

52 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

Sorry forgot to reply to your key point here. For that there's no problem for Toys. It already has the keywords needed...

 

As i just told xxx, that's not the same though. Just because a dick doesn't fit in doesn't mean fluids can't get out. I assume you're right about the authors adding keywords, i would recommend then to go ahead with examples for the default toys and maybemention it in the guide?

[VirginMarie]

26 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

As i just told xxx, that's not the same though. Just because a dick doesn't fit in doesn't mean fluids can't get out.

 

I think its enough to say blocked = no dick, and no flow. DD does not have anything more to go on. So what Toys has will be the same as what Fill Her Up uses.

 

26 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

I assume you're right about the authors adding keywords, i would recommend then to go ahead with examples for the default toys and maybemention it in the guide?

 

Confused. But if you mean go ahead with a system that allows mod authors to do custom messages easily... I've added it to the idea list far after V1 releases. This is a fancy feature that needs fleshing out, that will have to wait till after we exit beta. What I might do though, is do a some examples of using text like dialog, bottom center of screen, instead of using Notifications.

[audhol]

From my point of view descriptive messages add a lot to the immersion but  I think with how toys approaches the relationship between player and PC any messages should be first person, like the character is telling the player how they are reacting to the toys. "That spiky ball on the end of my clit piercing is driving me crazy" for example.