Forums are the devil!

[Vikingen79]

I get it... we had slashdot for years, then reddit came along and tried to act like they invented forums, then everyone else decided to open up a forum site of their own.  People like forums.  YAY forums.... Or not.  Forums are good for certain things, and just plain terrible and awful for others.  Forums are great for asking questions, but need to be backed up by a wiki site when the forum is used for troubleshooting.  Ever wonder why Wikipedia is not a forum and instead a wiki?  Imagine how horrible things would be if wikipedia was a forum.  They would no longer exist.  Instead they combine forums with wikis!  BRILLIANT!  You can search wikipedia with ease!  and if you see something you want to discuss, debate, etc, there is a forum tied into each wiki post.

 

Arch linux uses this approach for documenting howto's for its linux distribution, and the linux community is in agreement, Arch is the place to go for troubleshooting no matter what distribution you run.  Ubuntu, on the other hand, is a very popular linux distribution but uses a forum to troubleshoot issues.  Ubuntu forums are a cesspool of hell one needs to wade through in order to try and find an answer to a question, even when that topic is coded as 'Solved' because the 'solved' portion is generally never in one single solitary post with a clear and concise instructions.

 

Therefore, I submit to you, can we implement the wiki alongside the forum for these mods that are hosted here?  It makes things that much easier for the developers, testers, and users of these mods to get the information they are seeking in a timely and understandable format.  It will also cut down on forum time the developers are wasting, wading through and re-answering the same questions over and over so they can get back to coding these mods we all love.

 

Please?  Can we use the correct tool for the job?  Instead of continuing to use the wrong tool for the job?

[MadMansGun]

46 minutes ago, Vikingen79 said:

It will also cut down on forum time the developers are wasting, wading through and re-answering the same questions over and over so they can get back to coding these mods we all love.

no it wont, no one reads the instructions regardless ?

 

[gregathit]

39 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

no it wont, no one reads the instructions regardless ?

 

So true.  Half of my posts on this forum are reminding folks to read the damn pinned threads.   LOL!!! 

 

As to the OP, you just have to love when folks are here for a month, contribute absolutely nothing and demand everyone stop what they are doing and change everything.  Guess they never heard the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  Besides, all I hear in these cases is what Charlie Brown heard from his grandma "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah".  Besides, I've never understood what is so magical in some folks minds about a wiki.  We've seen folks start them and watched them die by the dozens.....LL's forum is still here.  Guess we do have the proper tool after all!  

[crplivion]

i like things just how they are,the more in house the better.thats my thought.

[Nazzzgul666]

On 7/4/2018 at 4:55 AM, gregathit said:

Besides, I've never understood what is so magical in some folks minds about a wiki.  

I guess the expectation that the search function isn't broken.  Just joking, i know a good search function isn't easy.

 

Jokes aside, i do get it - for certain cases. Currently playing subnautica, and there i prefer a wiki a lot. It provides a quick way to get exactly the information i want (and quick links to connected topics) without the risk of spoilers by people who don't mind or are just plain wrong. But the condition for both of those advantages is that it's well maintained, which is a lot of work. Plus it only works if the things i want to know aren't too individually. I.e everybody has the same software (the game, in this case), and other conditions like different hardware or mods don't matter.

For 90% of the stuff LL provides, that doesn't work, at least not as good which means, for a semi-equally quality it would need a LOT more work. 

 

That said, i quote an often given answer on LL: If you want it, do it yourself. Nobody stops you, people even might help if asked nicely.

 

[gregathit]

9 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Plus it only works if the things i want to know aren't too individually. I.e everybody has the same software (the game, in this case), and other conditions like different hardware or mods don't matter.

For 90% of the stuff LL provides, that doesn't work, at least not as good which means, for a semi-equally quality it would need a LOT more work. 

This is exactly the key.  Folks who come in and insist on wiki's (or something of that sort) don't have the slightest fucking clue about modding.  It is just that ignorance that irrates me the most.  Many of the mods here have so many options and those options have other options and so on, and so on that a wiki would look like a world wide circle jerk.  Not to mention that this mod won't play well with that mod and don't forget about compatibility patches.  For fucks sake, almost no one has the exact same load order for any of the Beth games on this forum (among PC users anyways).  There are just too many mods out there.  Never mind the MASSIVE amount of work that creating and maintaining a wiki involves.  Again, only someone who knows nothing of the mod scene would suggest this.  Mod users won't participate, hell, rare is the mod user that will actually read the readme files (LL members rank much higher to actually do this than any other forum I've ever seen.....yet still the overall number is low.  Just check the tech support sections if you doubt this).  You really think they are going to devote hours upon hours to building and maintaining a wiki?  Wake up already.  So it would fall back to mod makers..........which would only burn more of them out before they got the mod finished as it would be one more thing they would have to do.  There is a reason the KISS principle works.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm fine with folks not knowing any better and suggesting something, but to bull in and demand change like we are a bunch of dumb-asses and they are the only ones who are right just rubs me the wrong way.

[gregathit]

9 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

That said, i quote an often given answer on LL: If you want it, do it yourself. Nobody stops you, people even might help if asked nicely.

Once again, EXACTLY on target.  I'm 100% behind anyone who thinks they see a problem and are willing do the work to provide a solution.  I've lost track of how many threads I've stickied of folks who saw a need, pitched in and filled it.  Be it a directory of known animations, or whatever.

[Nazzzgul666]

33 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Just check the tech support sections if you doubt this).  You really think they are going to devote hours upon hours to building and maintaining a wiki?  Wake up already.  So it would fall back to mod makers..........which would only burn more of them out before they got the mod finished as it would be one more thing they would have to do.  There is a reason the KISS principle works.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm fine with folks not knowing any better and suggesting something, but to bull in and demand change like we are a bunch of dumb-asses and they are the only ones who are right just rubs me the wrong way.

I'm completly with you on this, as somebody who has answered about half of the questions in the tech forum for months and still getting most of my post count there, i know.  

Even with all my experience most times i'm glad if i get my own game running without completly freaking out, not even talking about flawless. So... I totally understand the wish for a simple wiki that would make my games work fine, to know that it just doesn't work that way you actually already need to know what you're doing.

 

But even that + not having a clue is no excuse for poor manners. Demanding stuff from people who don't get paid to do it (and often even then) is just a bad idea in general.

The S.T.E.P project on Nexus might have been done as a wiki maybe, and there that might actually improve it. But when i started modding and read it on day 3 or something... i didn't understand half of it and now i don't need it anymore, so i'm not sure about that either.^^

 

[Vikingen79]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:55 PM, gregathit said:

I've never understood what is so magical in some folks minds about a wiki.

Not magical.  A wiki is an organized format to find a set of instructions.  The problems I frequently have with forums is the lack of organization due to 'solved' issues being buried in forum posts that are not easy to discover.  Search strings in my experiences are not the best solution, how do people know what key words to search for?  English is not a first language for everyone.  I never said maintaining a wiki was easy or requires little time.  Yes, sometimes they die out.  The same argument can be used for forums.  I have seen just as many forums die as wikis.

 

As for the statements about mod install complexities.  They do have hyperlinks for wikis.  You are already documenting your stuff on a forum.  The time is already being spent.  My position is, copy paste that to a wiki, and when an issue is solved on the forum, copy paste that over to the wiki as well and link it to the Table of Contents.

[old cat]

I am one lazy lurker here on LL and have been for some time. Emphasis on lurker as in "I use the site and read a lot." End of line.

 

That said, while I recognize a certain validity to the use of a wiki over the forum, wikis just by dent of maintaining them for a site that has the complexities of install configurations associated with the number of LL games supported, mods, updates, et al on a site that has so many members inputting queries and replies as well as new mods and simple commentaries and observations ... well ... WHO is going to maintain all that? volunteers, maybe? or perhaps the large number of paid staff? uh, uh yeah

 

Sorry for being a sarcastic ol' bas jackass. Seriously, look at how many it takes to maintain the site just through our moderators. You will note that the same set of avatars appear over and over and there are not very many and they do not get the recognition they deserve.

 

If you feel a wiki is needed based on LL forums, ask to start one yourself or perhaps start a club to frame one for all.

 

course you might want to list all that it takes to set that wiki up before you start

[27X]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:53 PM, Vikingen79 said:

I get it... we had slashdot for years, then reddit came along and tried to act like they invented forums, then everyone else decided to open up a forum site of their own.  People like forums.  YAY forums.... Or not.  Forums are good for certain things, and just plain terrible and awful for others.  Forums are great for asking questions, but need to be backed up by a wiki site when the forum is used for troubleshooting.  Ever wonder why Wikipedia is not a forum and instead a wiki?  Imagine how horrible things would be if wikipedia was a forum.  They would no longer exist.  Instead they combine forums with wikis!  BRILLIANT!  You can search wikipedia with ease!  and if you see something you want to discuss, debate, etc, there is a forum tied into each wiki post.

 

Arch linux uses this approach for documenting howto's for its linux distribution, and the linux community is in agreement, Arch is the place to go for troubleshooting no matter what distribution you run.  Ubuntu, on the other hand, is a very popular linux distribution but uses a forum to troubleshoot issues.  Ubuntu forums are a cesspool of hell one needs to wade through in order to try and find an answer to a question, even when that topic is coded as 'Solved' because the 'solved' portion is generally never in one single solitary post with a clear and concise instructions.

 

Therefore, I submit to you, can we implement the wiki alongside the forum for these mods that are hosted here?  It makes things that much easier for the developers, testers, and users of these mods to get the information they are seeking in a timely and understandable format.  It will also cut down on forum time the developers are wasting, wading through and re-answering the same questions over and over so they can get back to coding these mods we all love.

 

Please?  Can we use the correct tool for the job?  Instead of continuing to use the wrong tool for the job?

 

This is the right tool for the job. Threads that go unanswered are because the question is inane or has a very obvious answer the person is too lazy to look for or just fucking impossible/why would you ever via every COLOCO and Xaqq thread made.

 

A wiki would do nothing to stem that communication flow in any direction.

 

A wiki also doesn't give a modder enough of a base to field the right data and the right context to users, and the reverse is even more true; you can't ask a wiki what driver versions they used, you can't ask a wiki whether windows 7 or 10 was invoked, a wiki can't enunciate whether a screenshot is 6 , 8 or 10 bit color, and forums can.

 

You'll notice that the step wiki keeps referring to threads for clarification and authentication data, cause that's how beth modding works. There's no documentation, there's no procedural format, and that's because things don't just advance in skyrim modding; they change completely.

 

Most of the oldest mods on nexus are pretty much unusable in a permanent save because the methods used to code them aren't just antiquated or obtuse, they're straight up obsolete, and clicking through page after page of deprecated wiki shit doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

hell, pick boobs. Boobs have changed five times with five different boobadigms, first we had auto animated, then tbbp (seriously who came up with this stupid name), dragonfly and every flavor of dragonfly from associated artists and modders, then PE, and now the logical conclusion of roll-your-own SMP, which eliminates the need of either a base modder or wiki covering the procedure unless you're lazy or straight up entitled, boobs are literally do it yourself for that just right bounce with some text parameters and the right skeleton. Speaking of skeletons, how many times has MSE updated? Like fifty? You gonna volunteer to track that shit and post every change? You gonna volunteer to make sure every other mod on your wiki is compatible at 100%, 100% of the time?

 

yeah.

 

Ask a question, if your question isn't obtuse as hell you'll prolly get an absurdly friendly and very exacting answer tailored to the context your question was asked under in the first place, and wikis don't cover that.

 

Go check the dragon's dogma wiki, and you see some basicbitch information straight from the japanese home site that doesn't tell you anything you didn't know. Go down to the comments section which acts a kb forum, and surprise surprise you get a breakdown of why this is a good or bad class skill or weapon, and how best to apply it.

 

If people can't bother to rtfm, they aren't going to bother to rtfw.

 

 

 

[Darkpig]

Forums aint the devil. I am.

[Guest]

On 7/3/2018 at 10:55 PM, gregathit said:

So true.  Half of my posts on this forum are reminding folks to read the damn pinned threads.   LOL!!! 

 

Tbh I never read stickies until people tell me to...never had anyone tell me here because I'm not a fucking retard

 

1 hour ago, Darkpig said:

Forums aint the devil. I am.

Hahaha you clearly haven't met my ex

[Darkpig]

1 hour ago, RussianPrince said:

Hahaha you clearly haven't met my ex

Ex? Rex? tyrannosaurus Rex?

[Vikingen79]

13 hours ago, 27X said:

you can't ask a wiki what driver versions they used, you can't ask a wiki whether windows 7 or 10 was invoked, a wiki can't enunciate whether a screenshot is 6 , 8 or 10 bit color, and forums can.

 

 

 

That's why I said use both of them.

[pinky6225]

6 minutes ago, Vikingen79 said:

That's why I said use both of them.

There are already two wiki's for skyrim that i'm aware of so general skyrim is covered (there are more) plus then you have the STEPS wiki which is basically a wiki on how to mod

 

At that point i think everybodies setups become to bespoke beyond general questions of X has happened in a mod which is more relevant for that mods thread/description as either it shouldnt have happened so the modder will want to know to fix it or its as they intended

 

That said i'm sure no mod author would actually object if you said you wanted to create a wiki about their mod as all the ones i've seen quite like it when users help out by answering questions in their mod threads as it means they dont have to so perhaps you should create one and then if peeps see an advantage other devoted users of a mod (the ones answering questions in a mod thread) might copy you

[Lady Horus]

I would think it'd be rather difficult to make a wiki for mods. And each mod creator would have to make their own wiki? Some people do make their own dedicated websites where you can search for information about it and what it does (Frostfall or Better Vampires comes to mind). However, not everyone has time for such a thing. It was a lot of work just to type out a very detailed description for my own mod and I packed as much info in there as well as answers to questions that I could and yet still people would ask the same questions over and over again. Though it did eventually ease up as people became more familiar with it and the tools used for it (Bodyslide and the like).

 

So just because you put the information out there readily available doesn't mean people will actually read it. Personally, I try to find the answers myself if I can through the mod pages and descriptions, and by going through threads, but I can't always. That's when I'd ask a question.

 

A wiki isn't a bad idea but I just don't think it is feasible for modding like Skyrim or Fallout. People would spend more time maintaining it than working on said mods, and that can be rather draining. I'd assume also, that fact is why some modders ask for help maintaining just their comment sections on sites like Nexus because they themselves don't always have the time to answer every comment especially if it's a very popular mod.

[RitualClarity]

Quote

Forums are the devil!

Welcome to hell...

 

4 hours ago, Vikingen79 said:

That's why I said use both of them.

Yes, Wikki are good for tutorials and such and forums are good for those need to help questions when you just don't get it.

 

 

[Guest]

Or maybe OP is just a bit special in the head

[27X]

3 hours ago, Lady Horus said:

I would think it'd be rather difficult to make a wiki for mods. And each mod creator would have to make their own wiki? Some people do make their own dedicated websites where you can search for information about it and what it does (Frostfall or Better Vampires comes to mind). However, not everyone has time for such a thing. It was a lot of work just to type out a very detailed description for my own mod and I packed as much info in there as well as answers to questions that I could and yet still people would ask the same questions over and over again. Though it did eventually ease up as people became more familiar with it and the tools used for it (Bodyslide and the like).

 

So just because you put the information out there readily available doesn't mean people will actually read it. Personally, I try to find the answers myself if I can through the mod pages and descriptions, and by going through threads, but I can't always. That's when I'd ask a question.

 

A wiki isn't a bad idea but I just don't think it is feasible for modding like Skyrim or Fallout. People would spend more time maintaining it than working on said mods, and that can be rather draining. I'd assume also, that fact is why some modders ask for help maintaining just their comment sections on sites like Nexus because they themselves don't always have the time to answer every comment especially if it's a very popular mod.

 

 

There's actually a literal object lesson on this via the japanese skyrim mod wiki, and it is hilariously out of date, actual years behind on attendant mods and procedures.

[MadMansGun]

7 hours ago, Lady Horus said:

I would think it'd be rather difficult to make a wiki for mods. And each mod creator would have to make their own wiki?

this is the closest thing anyone will get from me:

https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3524-sexlab-more-nasty-critters-install-guide/