A "commodity" for Devious Followers as an alternative to cash
Entry posted by Lupine00 in Devious Followers
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First, some context:
I've mentioned this on several occasions, but I raised it again recently, in the context of a discussion about Skyrim economics:
I'm still trying to come up with some alternative to cash that you can pay followers with. The best suggestion so far is soul gems, which would be ... ok ... but feels a bit esoteric.
There should be something more obvious, more intuitive, but apparently, there isn't 
This triggered a long response by @HexBolt8 that you can find here: https://www.loverslab.com/topic/130527-devious-followers-continued/?do=findComment&comment=2936344
I'll summarize that as:
On 3/21/2020 at 7:50 AM, HexBolt8 said:What about adding something new to the game?
Which in this case refers to a class of loot object.
It's got pros and cons vs an existing item like soul gems.
I won't dig into HexBolt's "rare trinkets" idea here, because while it's an interesting idea, it seems more interesting as an augmentation to other mechanics rather than a true paradigm shift in follower payment.
As a concept it's just not visceral enough. It doesn't immediately resonate. It's not a strong basis for a relationship.
What bothers me is that ... it just feels manufactured ... and that's true of soul gems and the other objects too.
@Darkwing241 also made an interesting response, which got closer to my thinking, but addressed the issue more generally: https://www.loverslab.com/topic/99955-sexlab-survival/?do=findComment&comment=2936294
To clarify:
What I'm looking for is something that makes sense for a follower you are already connected to, such as a housecarl, or a spouse, a "something" that would justify them treating you like a slave if you don't deliver it. i.e. It's not for a new mod, it's a feature for Devious Followers, and it has to work with most of the existing dialogs.
That doesn't mean no dialog changes. I think some dialogs would swap based on the payment 'mode', but it would be too tiresome to make all of them conditional.
There would also likely be additions specific to the mode, and some little tweaks in some mechanics - such as device removal.
I think the best thing would be something you do, not something you have.
The key is to then make that 'thing you do' appropriate enough, interesting enough, time-consuming enough, and yet also troublesome enough, that it is lore-friendly, immersive, and good-gameplay.
I'll list those points again, and number them:
- appropriate (it just makes sense lore and RP wise) - feels like the basis for a strong relationship
- immersive - feels like an event, not just a mechanic
- interesting - sufficient complexity
- time-consuming - usually easy to adjust
- troublesome - some effort required on the player's part, some risk of failure
- gameplay - choices have consequences, some risk of failure
The obvious first try candidate for this is sex.
It's appropriate and immersive, but it's not very interesting, and generally not troublesome or delivering any gameplay, without building a complex system around prostitution, addiction, etc.
The follower could expect sex with others, or just with the follower.
Their reaction to non-delivery could then be treated as either frustration that you aren't satisfying them, or a natural outcome of them acting like a pimp and treating you like a whore.
The core problem with sex is that it would require a lot of new mechanics to make it work well. There is no existing prostitution mod that does the job appropriately in this context.
Most of those mods lack any satisfying gameplay, or any real risk, and are just easy ways to get money if you don't mind watching SexLab scenes over and over again. Only ME ever went beyond this, and it's not compatible with anything else and had many bugs besides.
It also has some 'logic' problems. Why would a housecarl do this? Why would a spouse who locks you in a chastity belt also whore you out? It feels a bit awkward. You can make up answers but they won't suit everyone.
So, sex is a "maybe", but not really a great solution without a lot of extra work that would block delivering the DF feature.
The spouse scenario I keep coming back to is my "running joke" vegetable stall.
The vegetable stall scenario takes the idea of an oppressive male spouse who demands this his PC wife must support the family. He makes a big deal about how he provides, but he still demands that his wife work at some menial task, while caring for him and his needs, pumping out babies, and supporting his drinking habit. In the pure version, the husband uses violence and threats to children to keep the PC under control. The gameplay is about balancing a mass of responsibilities and allocating a budget that will usually be too small to do everything you need. It's not about Skyrim as we understand it.
It's more like a grimly realistic alternate start than a solution for DF.
Nevertheless, the idea of a spouse follower (or even housecarl) seeing the PC as merely a support character (regardless of the actuality) and acting accordingly is really a common story-basis for DF scenarios. It's not the only story, but it's one story you can use to rationalize what's happening in DF.
In this setting, the follower demanding cash seems strange. If we turn on gold control, it makes sense that they no longer demand cash but simply control it. That still leaves a very loot oriented game, which can be boring, and doesn't quite fit with spouse followers.
What could a spouse reasonably expect, either item or action?
One possibility is the opposite of sex. The PC just needs not to have sex with others. This is appropriate, immersive, but not interesting, time-consuming, or necessarily good gameplay.
Maybe too easy if wearing a belt, and as the only involuntary sex mod that isn't a straight-out rape mod is HH, it's pretty limiting. Suffice to say, there's something there, but it would need a lot more work to make it viable.
Another possibility is that the spouse makes arbitrary and variable demands: a mixture of radiant quests and Submissive Lola type demands for items. This is probably achievable. It's pretty close to what @Darkwing241 suggested, and very, very close to what Sex Slaves - Mia's Lair - Dominant Andrew does. Andrew has a plotline and progression mixed into his radiant quests, but it really is the same thing. What Andrew does is perfect for a possessive spouse.
The downside of this mix-and-match approach is that it isn't an obvious replacement for cash. There is no easy way to create an exchange rate between these different actions and cash, though you could assign values to each one.
As this fits in with the radiant quest mechanics I was thinking of for enslavement, there's some efficiency there, on the downside, it makes the normal non-enslaved experience more like being enslaved, which reduces the variety of experience.
I suppose it may be possible to have similar mechanics yet still make it different enough.
This could be adopted with slightly different dialogs for a bossy housecarl, or other "involved" follower who isn't asking for money, but is making demands.
Maybe mixing in something like the soul-gem mechanic, and "ancient trinkets" as well could help vary it.
It's getting pretty nebulous as an idea. I was looking for a simple answer, and I guess there isn't one?
The only "obvious" action is sex, and the drawbacks with that approach are already noted.
It comes back to a handful of simple questions:
What would be interesting for your housecarl to demand you do?
Why would your housecarl think it's OK to try and enslave you?
What would be interesting for your spouse to demand you do or give them?
Why would your spouse think it's necessary/useful to enslave you?
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