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Does a Follower's Location, Matter? (i.e Where you find them)


Kuroyami

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First, a few things. I know, I know, all to well, that this is a very subjective topic, and should be taken as such. I've also been thinking of it for quite some time, and have been unsure how to approach it, even if the point is merely to discuss the problem, not try and force a change on how Follower mods are made. 

 

But overall, the problem(a technical one, again), is that a large majority of follower mods made tend to follow a simple trend - have a follower in an easily accessible location, like an Inn, Hall of the Dead, or Temple of [insert name here], etc. Try going through dozens of these mods, seeing several perhaps which look interesting. But then you look at the description, and see the problem. No effort made to try and even in the smallest of ways, make these followers a character, even if this may just be placing them in a location that is otherwise empty in the vanilla game, or a location that fits the character(and it not so simple as placing say, a Vampire in a Hall of the Dead). One last time, I know how subjective this is. The reasons for following the trend do not need any explanations, as they are far too obvious. Though it seems my problem overall is the frequency, not that it happens. 

 

Otherwise, the only attempt to give these followers character, is indeed a story. But where is that story, usually? In the mod's description, and no where in-game. This means something fairly simple - you as a player can learn their story. But your own character, cannot. Now, I would not say that every follower mod needs that, and again, I don't mean to suggest it would be a requirement for such a mod. It certainly is possible also to craft a story(along with a visual appearance) for a follower that makes it perfectly fine, that they are in an Inn. However, then there is the sense of it otherwise. What if the follower is something that clearly has been affected by Daedric influence, to the point where it is obvious? What if it is a Vampire, and is not being discreet about that fact? Surely in this case, it can be claimed that the average person doesn't see the character's glowing eyes, or uniquely colored ones, similar to the dialog lines describing the player's eyes, if a Vampire. 

 

It could also be that that, placing a character is those locations, is giving them some character, and that isn't wrong. But the problem still falls to frequency, and the fact that beyond appearance, nothing makes them really stand out from many other follower mods who do the same thing. 

 

This next part is not really about a plug for a mod, just making a point. 

 

A year ago, I started playing with the Shark Race mod linked in my signature. A few weeks later, I inquired about the idea of making a few followers for the mod, with my part being the writing, and the mod's author, Blaze69, doing the work of actually getting these characters in the game. My first thought was that the followers would be fairly simple - I would just write a journal for them, which would tell their story, and otherwise, beyond their mod added race, they would be an otherwise vanilla follower - though by this point most are intended to be a bit more than that. But what kind of character did I come up with? Where would they appear in-game? 

 

That would be Mizuno, a male Selachii(this name of the race came up a while later) who is a member of the College of Winterhold, and the player could find him just north of Sky Temple Ruins, those ruins itself being north of the College of Winterhold. Some would consider that location so isolated, which is unlikely to be even traveled by players, save for when doing a part of the MQ. Then there is the consideration for Frostfall, where most using that mod would want to avoid areas like the Pale and Winterhold as much as possible. But it was not about that. It was about story, about his character, regardless if the player interacted with him because they like to travel everywhere in the game, because they are doing the MQ, or as is intended to be added at some point, another character in the mod will point Mizuno's camp out to the player. Or the player never does, and perhaps finds other characters, in other locations. That should not dictate his story, character, or more importantly, location, should it? 

 

Yes, not everyone who decides to make a follower mod will want to, or would possess the writing skills to do such a thing. That is not what this is about. I would not want to force a mod author to create something just because it is wanted, unless they would be willing to do so. Forcing the creation of art, is rarely going to create something good - though it can, forcing it is not the best idea. 

 

So other than discussion(whether there is a little or a lot to be had), there are of course follower mods that have taken even a little effort to make the character fit into the game. 

 

Talyn

Spoiler

A Dwemer Cyborg follower found outside of Avanchenzel. 

 

For me, the reason this one works, is because of location. Her story, even if it is not explicitly told in game, ties into the quest related to that location, and to the location itself. 

Original Version - https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/82560

Android Version - http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/86137

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You've hit on the problem with 90% of the follower mods out there: They're a quick throw together follower with minimal work put in.  They're fap bait and simply built to get large DL totals fast.  Note there are some VERY good follower mods out there like Viija and Inigo also, so I'm hardly picking on ALL of them.

 

Skipping a long rant of my own, the simple answer is to only download follower mods that have more depth to them.  People make what gets downloads.  It's the same idea that some of us have been saying with the Creation Club; just don't use it and it'll go away.

 

Now as far as their initial location being important to their story, not really.  A half way decent writer can always spin a reason why a character is found in a certain location.  Maybe the character has a great backstory and quest about needed a magic weapon found in a certain crypt to save their village.  They could be in town at the store or tavern when you find them because they need supplies or are trying to recruit help on their quest.  Just takes a little imagination.  :smile:

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technically speaking it matters in how the game handles persisting

 

ideologically speaking it matters if you are trying to make anything "cool"

 

personally speaking after you've made as many saves as i have, the more unique it is the more annoying it is to get your own game rolling as you wanted.

 

"oh man this character is so cool but fuck going to windhelm and getting my non nord ass shanked. why are you even in windhelm my elf dude they literally like zero kinds of elves there." 

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30 minutes ago, Shadowhawk827 said:

You've hit on the problem with 90% of the follower mods out there: They're a quick throw together follower with minimal work put in.  They're fap bait and simply built to get large DL totals fast.  Note there are some VERY good follower mods out there like Viija and Inigo also, so I'm hardly picking on ALL of them.

 

Skipping a long rant of my own, the simple answer is to only download follower mods that have more depth to them.  People make what gets downloads.  It's the same idea that some of us have been saying with the Creation Club; just don't use it and it'll go away.

I try doing that, always. The problem is, coming across what could be more than TEN follower mods, or much more, that draws my interest with how the follower looks. The screenshots can be anywhere in the game, and at that point, I'm sold. Then, I look in the description for more information, and I almost always see listed where they are in the game, and my interest, in spite of what was there before, is gone - since it is the usual places that, might make little sense when some serious thought is put into it. 

30 minutes ago, Shadowhawk827 said:

Now as far as their initial location being important to their story, not really.  A half way decent writer can always spin a reason why a character is found in a certain location.  Maybe the character has a great backstory and quest about needed a magic weapon found in a certain crypt to save their village.  They could be in town at the store or tavern when you find them because they need supplies or are trying to recruit help on their quest.  Just takes a little imagination.  :smile:

True, it is very simple. But the logic of wanting to design a follower after a Daedric Prince, for example, and then putting them in an Inn, is something I strain to understand. Even worse, is when the follower is designed in the style of a Daedra like Hermaeus Mora, who has almost the whole of Solstheim where such a follower could fit, and yet, one of the vanilla game's Inns is chosen for where you find them? Seriously?

 

Like the Vigilant would not care about that, at all? Not saying it would require any encounters, quests, or the like, but only the consideration for the climate in Skyrim. 

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Well, your first quote reply...  All I can say is it's like dating.  Kids go for looks only (that relating to both sexes), with experience you learn to look for depth as well so there's long term compatibility.

 

The location issue, again it get into creativity on the author's part and understanding the character.  Lets look at your daedra lord follower example.  Why do Daedra show up in Tamriel at all?  They're bored and / or curious about beings.  Granted the really twisted ones may want to spread carnage or inflict misery on a specific person or group.  That still comes back to interest in a person or group though.  "Sam" showed up in the tavern because that's his kind of environment and he knew the Dragonborn would show up there eventually.

 

Same kind of situation with the TV show Lucifer.  He's in LA because it's his kind of city and he knows he'll meet interesting people there. 

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Without throwing in a lot of scripts and custom dialogue and whatnot it's kind of difficult to give a follower any kind of unique personality or story. Like you've mentioned, most people who create followers are lazy, but they also don't want to spend all day every day on the Nexus answering PMs, emails, and post replies from people complaining that their follower 'sux' and 'dont work right'. It's bad enough they usually end up troubleshooting for people who don't like to read FAQs or instructions how to make the follower look like the posted screencaps. Never mind if they actually added custom scripts and dialogue giving their followers depth. It's simply easiest to make them standalone and send them out into the world for other players to enjoy. 

 

That being said, I've made quite a few Followers for my own personal use and for every one of them I've created a package and / or a schedule. They may not have a lot of personality but each one of them has their own little daily routine to make them seem more lifelike when they're not palling around with me. For example, one of them patrols Whiterun during the day, stops for an hour in the Bannered Mare and eats, patrols a different part of Whiterun in the afternoon and night (with a torch), goes back to the guard barracks at midnight, then sleeps. Another one is a Khajit merchant / mage who not only has a scaling khajit merchant-style inventory but spends two days in Whiterun, then travels to Riverwood and spends two days there before going back to Whiterun. I've got a third who's a feral hunter living off the land. I made a little camp site for her near Anise's cabin. She wanders her camp in the morning, cooks her own meals and eats them, hunts in the afternoon, and sleeps in her tent at night.

 

It's not that hard to make Followers who have schedules, just time consuming. However, you have to be careful to ensure they're never in a place where anyone else is supposed to be at a certain time. That's another problem for making your Followers public. Drop them in an Inn, though, and just make them idle 24/7 and it won't matter how many other NPCs are in the area. It's easy, so people just do it that way. Also, most players don't have the patience to hunt down Followers, so creators place them somewhere where they can get picked up early in the game. 

 

It's a shame. I think adding schedules or just choosing a unique place for Followers to be located makes them more interesting, but I can see why creators simplify them. Having them hang out somewhere unusual doesn't give them a ton of story but it does spark the imagination. 

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I'll give credit to folks like you who do things like that, Sarathis.  Even that much can add some legitimate depth to a NPC.

 

Trust me, I know all about the "doesn't work right" crowd.  I got my fill of that with my Dawnguard Sentries mod.  World's simplest mod too; NPCs with basic AI and a series of patrol idle markers.  Still no reason not to try to add at least a bit more like you do though.  For me, quality matters.  I can find 3 or 4 attractive and nearly naked followers on every page of the Nexus.  I'll skip by those for something 3 dimensional every time.

 

Agreed about the easy access being important for less motivated players as well.  I was approaching the original question from the standpoint of how doing so can be rationalized.

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What darkconsole said^^

For me i hardly ever play with any followers, partly because the game becomes too easy, partly because i usually have a lot of mods that aren't compatible with followers.

But when i do, i want to see if the follower looks in my game as good as in the screenshots and works without major bugs fast to decide if i keep the mod (because i'll reload a save before installing them in the first place if they don't). I don't want to clear Blackreach before i can see & talk to that character.

Plus, the follower must fit my character, making it believable that this is a reasonable compagnion. Since i pretty much always play weak female characters who just triy to get through a world hostile to women and never the bold hero, there is a pretty good chance even a bug free awesome looking follower with great story just won't fit.

 

That last part pretty much always made me uninstall any followers i've tried so far not that long after i've met them, even if i got what i expected earlier. Any suggestions would be welcome, though. A badass dominant follower would be fine, btw. :smile: Males prefered :smile:

 

*edit: and shadowhawk is right too. A daedric prince who looks for somewhat intresting humans, possibly some he can corrupt, makes much more sense to be in a crowded tavern than in a distant palace or cave. Why would a daedra leave Oblivion at all if he doesn't want to meet humans in their natural environment? Maybe to have easy access and do some experiments, but that would rather fit a quest mod, not a follower. That the cruel daedra scientist (which would fit to Solstheim) decides to join the dragonborn is much less likely than the for the bored daedra looking for entertainment.

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2 hours ago, Shadowhawk827 said:

The location issue, again it get into creativity on the author's part and understanding the character.  Lets look at your daedra lord follower example.  Why do Daedra show up in Tamriel at all?  They're bored and / or curious about beings.  Granted the really twisted ones may want to spread carnage or inflict misery on a specific person or group.  That still comes back to interest in a person or group though.  "Sam" showed up in the tavern because that's his kind of environment and he knew the Dragonborn would show up there eventually.

Well, Sam just looked like a Breton(I think?) in Black Robes. A little unusual, but not very. 

 

But the example is actually a mod - Mora Oghma -The Living Grimore. Differs quite a bit from Sam, and is a LOT more obvious.

I would not suggest a massive change, or even really adding her to any of the Apocrypha areas(since some of them are quest locked, and I'm unsure if adding NPCs there is possible). But if she were on Solstheim possibly near one of the Shrines(around the All-Maker Stones)? Even the one closest to Raven Rock? It would at least fit better, and there you could say that if she is seen by the people of Raven Rock, she is taken for just another one of the Cultists, who to them seems harmless. 

 

I've seen similar follower mods, and few(none) that take the factor of things like the Vampire attacks with Dawnguard - yet some follower mods add them to Inns or Halls of the Dead(where this I can almost accept, but too many Vampire followers use this trait for me to be sold on it). But, there is also the fact that, these Halls are not just abandoned Tombs were no one goes. The whole Narmira quest in Markarth starts with a character being annoyed that he cannot visit the Hall, so it can be suggested that the same is true for other cities with them. If recently dead bodies are being disturbed, these places are likely visited, even occasionally, enough that people would notice. 

 

My own ideas for Vampire followers, in that Shark Race mod? 

Arashii(Selachii Vampire) and Lyra(Imperial Vampire)  - Volkihar Ruins

Tyris(Argonian Vampire) - Kjenstag Ruins

Ketsu(Selachii Vampire) - Blackreach

34 minutes ago, Sarathis said:

Without throwing in a lot of scripts and custom dialogue and whatnot it's kind of difficult to give a follower any kind of unique personality or story. Like you've mentioned, most people who create followers are lazy, but they also don't want to spend all day every day on the Nexus answering PMs, emails, and post replies from people complaining that their follower 'sux' and 'dont work right'. It's bad enough they usually end up troubleshooting for people who don't like to read FAQs or instructions how to make the follower look like the posted screencaps. Never mind if they actually added custom scripts and dialogue giving their followers depth. It's simply easiest to make them standalone and send them out into the world for other players to enjoy. 

I'd still be in favor of as much simplicity as possible. I was not planning on writing dialog or doing quests for those Selachii(Shark Race) Followers, but when it was suggested by Blaze for the mentioned character, I was fine with doing them, as least the planning and writing, anyway. Other mods do not have to do this, but I really don't think it is that much effort to consider what kind of follower you have, and place them in the game based on that, and their story, if they have one. Likely sometimes it falls back to convenience, and I don't think that exactly makes a mod bad. 

 

Another problem is showing the follower in the screenshots...anywhere but where they actually are in the game. This would work if it was showing the follower with a PC, but nope, its them alone in the shot(or shots), and you would easily be mistaken in thinking they are indeed placed somewhere more interesting. Not exactly a huge problem, but that is like a developer having a NPC shown in a screen shot on the back of the box, and while the area exists, the NPC appears elsewhere, or does not at all. A mistake in planning in that instance, but for some mods? Intended, basically.

 

Also, showing the follower of in some modded outfit...that is not within the mod itself, and obviously they won't be wearing. A minor problem really, but something I'd never do. I have a screenshot for Mizuno in my blog, in the entry for Current Characters. The way he is in the screenshot, will be what he is wearing in game. Which is to say, nothing, until you open up the option for him to be a follower. This is because the race understands modesty, but does not place the same kind of high value in it that other races do. Granted, that started out as a "Why not?" sort of thing, but I decided to make that have sense to it - now a dialog line in the mod where he explains it if you ask(and if playing a Selachii character? Your line in that case differs). Also there is the fact that for him, it is practical. No having to strip out of his robes and boots when he wants to go get some fish, or swim. 

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Yeah I agree Mora Oghma is about as subtle as a Great Sword, LOL.  IF it was my mod, I would have either given her a more normal looking appearance when she was in towns, along with a cover story, OR put her in the Mage's Guild library.  Even a Doom Stone could be a good choice, as it could be rationalized she's studying it's magic...  Something like that.

 

As for Vampire and Dawguard related followers, my Dawnguard Sentries are all unique and cold technically be recruited with ATF or a similar follower mod, LOL.  I also plan on adding the redhead in the mod's screen shot into the mod as a fully fleshed out follower at some point.

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From what I understand reading the OP's post, you basically want :

- Good looking NPCs

- Backstories

- Varied locations that make sense.

 

Well, the simple solution, assuming you are on Oldrim, is to use Nifmerge and the CK to replace vanilla or even mod NPC's with the follower faces you like.  For my own game, I have already modded all vanilla named female NPCs (some 200 of them) using the fantastic Sideram93's NPC85 as base and added the others using faces downloaded from Nexus and my own creations.  I have also modded NPCs from Helgen Reborn, Maids II Deception, Mirassi, Ambriel, and Legacy of the Dragonborn.  My current project is modding Interesting NPCs.  Nearly all the NPCs have a back story, are voiced, and have various stating locations and schedules.  Plenty of them are also followers and involved in quests.

 

Let me know if you want to pursue this idea further, and I will happily share some tips.

 

Happy modding

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, freddark said:

From what I understand reading the OP's post, you basically want :

- Good looking NPCs

- Backstories

- Varied locations that make sense.

Not exactly. It is more that I want to see follower mods that, if they take quite some time to make a follower's appearance just right, they consider what that character is. Especially when they give the follower(more often than not a female one, but I don't exactly see that as a problem) custom textures, which have been edited for something specific to giving that follower, character. Yet, once the appearance is done? Place them in one of the most mundane types of places the game has to offer with no concern, or little, for why they are there. Even with the idea that they are Vampires or Daedric influenced entities wishing to be among mortals, the problem is their outward appearance in that case - not that it is a problem in itself, but it is a problem of, where they are, not that they look a certain way. 

 

I've been using the follower in this mod - Female Forsworn Briarhearts - With Follower, on one of my characters. It does the right thing with the follower - places her in the Hills near Karthwasten, actually very close to Blind Cliff Cave. The story present on the mod's page for the follower isn't in the game, but it does place her somewhere that fits. Maybe as the mod's page suggests, she ran from the mentioned location when Melka and Petra's feud got out of hand, and the fighting started? 

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Followers are just

1) something to face rip for Racemenu

2) eyecandy for the bar/tavern, where ever they are.

3) something to decorate the dungeon with

 

Amorous Adventures and Vanilla Companion looks overhauls killed the follower scene, like they put a bullet in their face.

Cause after that you have Hearthfires, and other Vanilla stuff in the actual game that enhances vanilla follower play...

There's Cursed Rings to nerf the shit out of Vanilla Followers so they cant fight better than the PC.

Then there's Defeat.

 

Just face it mod added Followers suck and with Sexlab now they really can.

IDK maybe they should try something different like picking up a microphone and doing the voice acting themselves, sure that'd mean it would be a male character but who knows maybe they'd shake up how things are cause the current state of followers is that they are good for only a few things and those things are all done better by vanilla followers with a few select mods.  So that just leaves dungeon décor or tavern hoe.

They may as well stop giving them a class and other fighting skills cause that's not what people use them for.

 

But seriously if people want their mod added follower to be taken seriously it needs voice, quests, and stuff that makes that character feel like they are an important part of my experience while I play the game...And pretty much every follower is window dressing and if they are downloaded that's what its used for.

 

Right now in my game, all the vanilla followers have actual quests, can be romanced, have intimate scenes with...Heck you can just stop and hug or kiss them if you want.  They talk about their environment and their feelings about how things are...That's a tough act to follow, IDK maybe people are just not aware of the mods available to make followers cooler or something.  Heck there are full on Romance mods available complete with the married life experience with a kid...So there's just little to no purpose to a typical mod added follower other than to fill up some of the disappointingly empty spaces in towns...Which BTW there are better mods for that and those also add better followers than the crap I see day in and day out on Nexus Hot Files.

 

If a would be mod author wanted to present a better follower experience than they need to check out and become very familiar with,

FNV Willow,

Heather Casadin,

Amorous Adventures,

Skyrim Romance,

3D NPC,

 

But basically I expect a whole heck of a lot more from followers cause Im aware of tons of mods for vanilla followers that helps complete the experience.

The other thing is that its a mistake to think that all the followers have to be female, like there is a huge crowd of people that play Skyrim that want characters and content for male's not gay males but straight males but heck either will do cause there is a huge crowd for that.

There are a ton of people that want more outfit content that isn't sexualized and more that want stuff for male characters but that demand goes largely without every day for years but hey what do I know Im just a mod author.

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On 12/12/2017 at 5:17 PM, freddark said:

From what I understand reading the OP's post, you basically want :

- Good looking NPCs

- Backstories

- Varied locations that make sense.

 

Well, the simple solution, assuming you are on Oldrim, is to use Nifmerge and the CK to replace vanilla or even mod NPC's with the follower faces you like.  For my own game, I have already modded all vanilla named female NPCs (some 200 of them) using the fantastic Sideram93's NPC85 as base and added the others using faces downloaded from Nexus and my own creations.  I have also modded NPCs from Helgen Reborn, Maids II Deception, Mirassi, Ambriel, and Legacy of the Dragonborn.  My current project is modding Interesting NPCs.  Nearly all the NPCs have a back story, are voiced, and have various stating locations and schedules.  Plenty of them are also followers and involved in quests.

 

Let me know if you want to pursue this idea further, and I will happily share some tips.

 

Happy modding

 

 

 

I've rebuilt nearly all of the npcs in the game and changed some of the generic actors into unique npcs, I'm still working on the random spawn actors as I try to only change a few at a time then test for issues so it has taken a while. There is really a lot more to many of the named npc's than the final game ended up using and just bringing some of that back has made my game feel new again. Finding npcs that were built and never added who also had some custom dialogue or scenes. There are some interesting stories buried in there that just got left out or you would never be able to discover because the npcs are trapped in a location or ai routine that prevents it from taking place.

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10 hours ago, RW311 said:

I've rebuilt nearly all of the npcs in the game and changed some of the generic actors into unique npcs, I'm still working on the random spawn actors as I try to only change a few at a time then test for issues so it has taken a while. There is really a lot more to many of the named npc's than the final game ended up using and just bringing some of that back has made my game feel new again. Finding npcs that were built and never added who also had some custom dialogue or scenes. There are some interesting stories buried in there that just got left out or you would never be able to discover because the npcs are trapped in a location or ai routine that prevents it from taking place.

Sidearm93 also made replacers for female Forsworns and bandits which you may want to check out,  and a Civil War mod which adds skirmishes in 5/6 locations (respawns).

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