Is there any way to make Skyrim... playable?

[ZeroListGram]

Hey.

 

Provoking title, I know.

 

I think I developed an unhealthy "love - hate" relationship with Skyrim -- although, it's more like a "motivation - disappointment - pissed off" kind of deal. 

 

For one, I never, ever finished the main story -- or any main quest, for that matter. I've been fooling around with mods. I've spent more time modding the game than playing, I guess this is something many of you can relate to. But I ended up only modding the game. Creating entire profiles around a certain build, having 150-220 mods per build, solving countless errors, setting things up, making sure I still have bearable FPS after all those mods.

 

Once all of those are fulfilled, and I am ready to "play", I test it, perhaps make an actual character, play about 20-30 minutes, and if it's still works without a crash and everything seems fine, I completely lose interest.

 

I move on to the next build idea on a new profile, I seek out mods, make them work together, if they don't, I swap some of them out for alternatives, compare them, watch reviews of them. If I can't get the game to work, I wipe all of them off and start over (usually setting up a rule that I won't go over, say, 50 mods, and only install the ones that are "actually necessary" -- of course, I haven't kept to this rule, not even once). When the new profile / build works, I move on to creating a new profile with a new build in mind. It is a never ending cycle.

 

Or, to be more precise: it usually ends when due to unexplainable error that occurs without me even touching the files since the last time they worked, I wipe off the entire game with all of its tools, mods, extensions, patches, etc.

 

The last time this happened was just yesterday. I'm still tempted to start over the whole thing, but finally I realized something. I think I got behind why I cannot enjoy the actual game, not even with the most masterfully crafted mods.

 

It is due to Skyrim itself. I always knew it had many flaws. As someone said, "Skyrim has the size of an ocean and the depth of a puddle". I realized what bothered me: that none of the player's decisions matter, that the world doesn't react to anything, that your decisions have no consequences, your skills and level don't matter due to the level scaling, and even if there wasn't level scaling, the enemies respawn for no good reason other than making it possible to be a "jack of all trades", the lack of internal consistency, the complete lack of roleplaying elements (dialogue based on player attributes, responsive world, consequences), that virtually every quest is about "the end of the world", as no other motivation can be justified if you want to stick to "total inclusion".

 

I won't even mention the dozens of missed out opportunities (Bethesda, hire this guy), and the cookie-cutter quests for no reason other than filling up the world with artificial content. The list goes on -- but all of these could either be forgivable or could be fixed with mods, except for the things in previous paragraph.

 

My question is:

 

Am I missing something? This is really it? A huge, beautiful, empty sandbox? 

And if so, is this unchangeable? Did someone create a mod trying to make Skyrim an RPG (besides Requiem, which as far as I know, didn't address the above issues)? Certainly, it would be a huge undertaking.

 

Or maybe, it is just time to move on.

 

 

 

[yatol]

your skills and level don't matter due to the level scaling, and even if there wasn't level scaling, the enemies respawn for no good reason other than making it possible to be a "jack of all trades", the lack of internal consistency, the complete lack of roleplaying elements (dialogue based on player attributes, responsive world, consequences), that virtually every quest is about "the end of the world", as no other motivation can be justified if you want to stick to "total inclusion".

 

you pick the wrong mods

 

if you are level 50, and a bear have pc level mult, he gain 250 health (5*50)

and he have highter chance to resist turn undead and a few spell

that's all level scaling do, it doesn't change anything

in the save it's still a black bear race, that use armor blackbear, that is for bearrace now, so invisible bear, messing with that require new game

 

check the health bars

my dragonborn is in enchanted dragonbone armor

with requiem, 1 or 5 bears, that doesn't matter, can go for a smoke, when i'll come back, will still be alive

you start weaker, but you still become far too strong for npc at high level, npc can't keep up

 

i went back to morrowind

before thinking of fighting draugrs you steal around to buy gear and potions, then look for mudcrabs to train a few skills

 

getting to riverwood without an escort? with a ralof that can't "go over there for npc to go for you, not for me", it's already complicated to get out of helgen (too many npcs)

with 50 in one hand, you do 25 damage, while npc do 75 (you need the better gear or perks to catch up) (the mod with combat stats in mcm)

tempering and enchanting max is 20%, you can't get 100 resist all with bonus to other things

if it was +3 between iron and steel, and ebony and dragonbone, it became +1 (it's the other way around with requiem, perkus, skyre... + 30 between iron and steel, and ebony and dragonbone, because of that you you crush everything with high level gear)

ebony npc have more stats than steel npc, it's that will make him take a few more hits, and do more damage

 

and to not put low level npc everywhere when you run around, high level encounter zone

game will no longer pick the level 5 skeever in winterhold if you get there at level 3

you can't win against a snow bear? run and come back later (a mod to make animals faster to make that impossible, unless you have a horse)

 

 

etc etc, that way, you are no longer able to finish the game by picking perks randomly in your iron armor barely using crafting

[noodles1976]

IMHO there are two types of RPGs:

 

1) Where you take on the role of a pre-thought out character created by writers with a specific backstory (i.e. Geralt of Rivia in the Witcher series).

 

or

 

2) Where you create an avatar for yourself to explore the sandbox game world (i.e. TES)...essentially "you" in the game world. You create your own backstory for your character. It's a creative thought exercise, you only get out of it what you put into it. It's more akin to table-top D & D than a modern RPG game.

 

If Skyrim doesn't hold your attention for roleplaying, then it is simply not your "type" of RPG. No amount of mods will change that experience for you.

 

[MataHari]

I would like to add to what yatol said, don't forget the shouts and some shouts can save your life like the Become Ethereal shout or the Whirlwind Sprint shout.

 

But most people use the Unrelenting Force shout and using it once saved my life when I was playing CW for the first time and back then I had a bunch of Stormcloaks way too close and I thought now it's time to use the Unrelenting Force shout, which I did and survived.

 

Almost every soldier was thrown back and some didn't survived when they landed on the ground.  Which remind me about another encounter I had up at the Archwind Point location in the south.  Me and Lydia, I always have Lydia in tow unless I must send her home, was figthing both dragons, draugrs and one deadly draugr e.g Draugr Death Overlord was close, so I use the Unrelenting Force shout and send him into death because he didn't survived the landing and ended up dead.

 

[ZeroListGram]

IMHO there are two types of RPGs:

 

1) Where you take on the role of a pre-thought out character created by writers with a specific backstory (i.e. Geralt of Rivia in the Witcher series).

 

or

 

2) Where you create an avatar for yourself to explore the sandbox game world (i.e. TES)...essentially "you" in the game world. You create your own backstory for your character. It's a creative thought exercise, you only get out of it what you put into it. It's more akin to table-top D & D than a modern RPG game.

 

If Skyrim doesn't hold your attention for roleplaying, then it is simply not your "type" of RPG. No amount of mods will change that experience for you.

 

I prefer linear-ish games with little or no sandbox, and I like when side quests are meaningful; a way to break away for a while from the main quest, and not the other way around: the main quest as a way to take a break from the dumb and meaningless side quests. Regarding the open world: what's the point of being able to go everywhere if there is nothing there because you haven't reached that point in the story? What's wrong with having that location sealed away from the player, as it has little to no value at that given point in the story?

 

It's not that linear games are innately better than the open world ones, but as a tendency, linear games do story telling incomparably better, as well as the side quests (a few and meaningful, or at least unique side quests). They also tend to be much more responsive to player decisions, encourage several playthroughs (you can see everything in Skyrim in one playthrough if you play long enough) due to a high need for specialization and strong, meaningful decisions which alter the story. This could also be done though limiting the available EXP in the entire game, making it impossible to be a jack of all trades (or be much less efficient in being that; this was done in the first two games of Gothic).

Some games managed to do this with an open world as well, such as Gothic I-II, Dragon Age: Origins, or the Witcher series.

 

I wouldn't say Skyrim is more like a table-top RPG. I would say it is the exact opposite. Sure, you can "play in your head", making up things that are simply not there in the game, but then: why not just play a table-top RPG instead? Video games supposed to be a different genre.

Skyrim is much more like a hack-and-slash game with pseudo-"roleplaying". Roleplaying has been diluted to the point of almost complete absence for "inclusion" and "freedom", so you can be the leader of all guilds at the same time, running around in full daedric armour and nobody bats and eye (maybe because at level 81 they still don't know who the hell are you even after saving the world a few times, but still, a bloke running around in full magical-demonic armour at the market should catch some attention, considering the same guys whom the armour is from wanted to end the world a while back).

 

What I am missing is the responsiveness of the world. Nobody cares who you are, what you do, how you influence their world (you don't), nothing changes. 

 

Another thing is dialogue. The vast majority of choices in dialogue are pseudo-choices leading to the same thing. There is no "intelligence check", or "charisma check", or "strength check" to meaningfully alter how the scene plays out. There is some rather stale "persuade" and "intimidate" options, which don't even require you to do anything, just press a button.

It was such a nice moment when I found out that with Odvar, you needed to have at least level 25 restoration to realize that he is sick, before you could unlock other lines to make him follow you. Why aren't there any more of these? Why weren't these in the base game to begin with, if it advertised itself as an RPG?

 

Then the last thing, the lack of need for specialization. What's the point in roleplaying any character if you can become a master / leader of literally everything? There are no choices, you can do everything. Sure you can set up arbitrary rules for yourself in your head, but no one in their right mind would not take advantage of everything they have at their disposal, so why goof around in robes with a dagger as a restoration-only cleric when you can use a bow and one-shot everything?

 

Without these, the game really feels like a body without a soul. Why do anything if nothing makes a difference and everything/everyone is the same? *nihilism intensifies*

 

 

 

 

[noodles1976]

 

*snip*

 

*snip*

 

Again...Skyrim just isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just pointing out how I see the game. If it doesn't hold your attention, then there aren't any mods that will change that experience for you.

 

You could always try Enderal ...not sure if it has what you're looking for, but it is a total conversion mod for Skyrim. I haven't played it, but I've heard good things. https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/77868/?

[lewd123]

IMHO there are two types of RPGs:

 

1) Where you take on the role of a pre-thought out character created by writers with a specific backstory (i.e. Geralt of Rivia in the Witcher series).

 

2) Where you create an avatar for yourself to explore the sandbox game world (i.e. TES)...essentially "you" in the game world. You create your own backstory for your character. It's a creative thought exercise, you only get out of it what you put into it. It's more akin to table-top D & D than a modern RPG game.

I agree with your basic idea, but I think we need to add to it. If your types are the X axis, I think the Y axis has choice-driven RPG at one end and power fantasy at the other. In a choice-driven RPG, you get what the OP was hoping for. Decisions that really matter, NPCs that like or dislike each other in realistic ways and so on. In a power fantasy, the idea is more to collect things and skills in order to destroy your enemies, which can be fun in its own way.

I don't think Skyrim is a great example of either though. It's far from choice-driven and it doesn't go far enough in being a power fantasy. In my experience, mods can get you a good power fantasy, but not a good choice-driven game (except for total conversions, those can do whatever they want). I think Bethesda has been trying to switch types for the past few games and they're not really there yet.

 

To OP: If you're willing to try out a good power fantasy, start with Legacy of the Dragonborn. It gives you an amazing place to store all those things you collect and like a million other awesome things. I'd also recommend all of EnaiSiaion's gameplay overhauls, to allow for more choice in the way you do combat, since you can't seem to get choices anywhere else. If power fantasy really isn't your thing, then you should probably think about finding another game.

[Reila]

Skyrim's biggest problem is that there's no real feeling of choice and consequence.  You do get some choices, but outside of roleplay there's no real consequence to the choices you make.  So most people just end up going with the choice that will give them the best gear, etc. 

Would be nice if vanilla quest resolutions could be expanded upon in some way, but so far I'm not aware of any mod that does this. 

I also wish there were more mods like this: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/36099/? that expand upon existing NPCs and give them more fleshed out dialogue trees. (Lack of voice is not an issue for me.)

 

[SmedleyDButler]

Lack of lively followers is definitely an issue. There's Inigo, Serana if you add her dialogue edit, Vilja (though I've never been able to get over the incredibly poor quality of Vilja's sound recordings - someone please help her remaster those things!) and then things drop off rapidly. Oh and Hoth? I can't say since I've never tried him.

 

Plus a lot of voiced mod-added followers that do have a fair amount of dialogue have too much personality in a way, by which I mean they have very specific storylines or quests attached (i.e. Mira the girl with the Dragon Heart, Rigmor, Recorder, or Bhruce Hhammar), or can be just plain annoying for many players (i.e. Sofia, or Dr. Ben "flatulence" Doon), either of which might conflict with your character's backstory, personality, roleplay style, or "muh immershuns".

 

As for the OP, I think there are mods you can use to give more weight to your choices, but you have to deliberately build around them. For instance, if I play as Imperial, I add Rebuild Winterhold, but only pursue it after taking that hold from the Stormcloaks, such that Imperial rule brings resources to rebuild the town (you could also play it as Stormcloak if you wanted, but would have to make it dependent on something else).

 

It's a big shame that Civil War Overhaul is gone from the Nexus. As much as it had it's problems, it was an interesting attempt to give the Civil War (and the original player choice of siding with the Imperials or Stormcloaks) a lot more meaning.

[Awkward Nymph]

I think similarly, but I like the idea of still making that 'perfect' experience. 

 

It's a bit disheartening when you realize there is a limit to mods, especially when you download every little thing to fill in your sandbox that doesn't necessarily have room for all of them.   

 

A fun strategy for me was to just start over, especially once I realized how Mod Organizer worked, fnis, loot, etc.  I set up my stuff better and used the program as an experienced player than one who just put a bunch of random files together and hoped they worked.

 

If you do want to give it another shot, ask yourself these questions:

 

1.  What do I want from Skyrim? 

2.  How can I get what I want from Skyrim?

3.  Why can't I get what I want from Skyrim?

 

With me, I find great joy in just adding mods to MO.  It's like: "Wow, that is so cool."  "I need immersion, this time I wanna role play."    

 

I try to find 'hooks' to play the game, and like you, I get discouraged when my game crashes, my LOD is fucked up, or my doors (right now) won't open.  Literally, I go to Whiterun and all I get is the door opening animation and me standing there like: wtf o-o

 

It's a mixture of learning from your mistakes, and asking yourself what you want.

 

Is it a whole lot of new textures? Do you want a "New" Skyrim?  Immersive or Lore breaking?   Right now I'm trying to make a Skyrim with new rules. 

 

Such as:   you can get diseases, you can own your own restaurant, you can be a 'citizen' and not have to deal with any dragon fighting nonsense. (good luck Balgruuf you ass-don't ask)

 

I'm going for Immersion and "new world."     Lore breaking creatures, new characters, heck, just added a new race of Cat People from Final Fantasy. I'm just 'making' my world what I want it.

 

When I fix my problems with the damn doors, then I'll try and test for a stable Skyrim...so after years of modding I can actually play the game on PC for once.  XD

 

Hope my rambling helped. 

[ZeroListGram]

I agree.

What also played a huge part in my disappointments was expecting too much from Skyrim. Well, to be fair, the entire RPG genre is rotting away in the name of profit and inclusion, so being too disappointed in Skyrim is not entirely justifiable.

It is just painfully boring, stripping away actual RPG elements to please a crowd that is not at all interested in RPGs, and making the game too slow and not fully action oriented to try to appeal to the original audience interested in RPGs. The result is that no one is really pleased, and the game does neither of those things good enough; it is inferior to both fully action-oriented games and actual RPGs. The political implications of this paragraph are endless, I'll let you decipher those for yourself.

I could go all the way into the direction Skyrim went. I found that the most fitting roleplaying scenario in such a game is a zombie apocalypse. I may start a "survival horror" playthrough with Frostfall, 28 Days and a Bit, Sands of Time Sleeping Encounters, iNeed, Hidden Hideouts / No loading screen homes (so the zombies pose a constant threat), Buried Treasure, Survive the Night, Tundra Defense, and EFF or Guild Starter with the goal of finding survivors and establishing some kind of a settlement. Maybe adding Sewers of Skyrim into the mix, if Empty Skyrim worked or had a meaningful equivalent.

The problem are essential NPCs, which could be solved with a "No Essentials" mod, but that would make my followers non-essential as well. I could remove all NPCs from the game with mods like Empty Skyrim and it's Add-On, or No People, but the thing is, I tried, and they didn't work. I would appreciate if someone made a working version of those, or made a mod her/himself (I would happily give ideas).

Or I will give a shot to power fantasy with Legacy of the Dragonborn and Skyrim Redone, and turn play all the quest mods created by others. They probably won't be as bad as the original game. Or do both on two separate profiles.

Reila:

I like such mods as well. You should try out Companions Enhanced if you're into a warrior playstyle, along with the authors modification to Aela. Maybe Moonlight Tales thrown in there would make it even better, especially if you consider the result of the bastardization of the Companions a blessing from Hircine (well, even if you don't, it will turn you into a werewolf involuntarily at certain moon phases).

[SmedleyDButler]

The thing is, if you DO want a more action-oriented game, there are a LOT of great combat mods out there to make combat as complex and tough as you might want. That at least is something the mod community has had success with.

 

I actually like the idea of having no essential NPCs (or maybe just a couple of story-critical ones), but the problem is that apart from two or three specifically-scripted examples (Ysolda taking over the Bannered Mare for example), once an NPC dies they're not replaced. So, stores close up, quest opportunities vanish, trainers are removed, and towns become ghost towns. Which only makes a somewhat thinly-populated world even emptier and more boring.

 

In effect, the penalty for allowing NPCs to die is to destroy the game itself, which is simply too much of a penalty for almost any player.

 

It would have been neat if there were a lot more "Ysoldas" who could take over from another NPC if the first dies. Even if it was just a cosmetic change to a different-looking and sounding NPC. Though it would be interesting if it came with game penalties too, such as shop prices being higher with each new owner "because the war is making the roads so dangerous", or something like that.

[ZeroListGram]

I have no problem with essential NPCs if I play the game "as intended", but I like the idea you're suggesting -- although there are NPCs which realistically could not be so easily replaced as a shopkeeper by another one, such as Delphine or Ulfric, etc.

 

I thought of getting rid of nearly all NPCs in the game for a "Zombie Apocalypse" playthrough. If you install some kind of a zombie mod, such as Draugnarok or 28 Days and a Bit, the zombies will kill everyone sooner or later, but even infinitely respawning zombies can't deal with essential NPCs, and installing a mod that makes everyone non-essential also kills my followers (pretty quickly, actually, with a Vigor + Combat Evolved + AAE combo). Manually giving them essential status also doesn't work, I tried.

 

So, the best solution would be a mod that removes all NPCs, such as Empty Skyrim, which for some reason doesn't work and causes my game to crash or not even load the main menu (it is caused by the mod, I tried it on a clean profile with only that mod activated). The other mod I linked contains a bat file which you have to run manually in game, but it doesn't remove a whole lot of people.

 

My ideal mod regarding this would be one that doesn't remove the Dawnguard faction or the College of Winterhold (since I assume they could defend themselves somewhat effectively -- maybe some NPCs could be repositioned here, and maybe the factions themselves could be edited a little with quests, I have tons of ideas), nor hunters or people who live in the wilderness (but most likely, you'd only find their cold bodies). In fact, I would want to create a world where humans pose an even higher threat than the zombies (OBIS + Bandit / (hostile) NPC patrols). The Dawnguard would not only have to deal with vampires, but also with the Skyrim-wide zombie apocalypse, where cities became completely inaccessible (in Empty Skyrim, the gates of cities are barricaded, if you install Skyrim Sewers, you could still access them for scavenging) due to them becoming the main lairs of the zombie hordes (this is a selectable preset in 28 Days and a Bit). During the day, one has to scavenge destroyed or abandoned houses, loot corpses and gather supplies while keeping an eye out for other humans (bandits, or maybe add the player to the "bandit" faction, so everyone attacks him/her on sight), and the night becomes a living horror story with increased spawns of zombies and Survive the Night.

 

With Tundra Defense, the player could start building their own outpost, gathering more and more people (tons of opportunities for meaningful quests) to restore order -- or exploit other survivors who are alone. Or even fight other similar factions formed by other survivors, retake the cities, fight for dominance over resources or farms/farmers. There could even be a resurgence in the ancient dragon cult of the Nords, seeing the zombie apocalypse as Alduin's will fulfilled (kind of), which concept could provide an entire new faction -- possibly even several sects of religious fanatics fighting each other and the Dawnguard / Player / Player's newly created guild. So many quest possibilities.

 

But I would be content with a mod that removes all city and village NPCs and leaves the Dawnguard and the College alone, and maybe makes it possible to still play Winterhold / Helgen rebuilt. That's what I meant by having a problem with essential NPCs.

 

Edit:

Looked for SkyRe patches in the last couple of hours... what have I got myself into...

[Guest]

Lot's of good posts in this topic, fun to read.

 

I can't agree with the suggestion that imagination isn't a powerful factor in what we get out of a TES game because  video games shouldn't require much of it. TES  always has. 

 

I reckon all fans of this series can cast their minds back to the first time they really proper lost themselves in the world, even if was brief for them it would still have been quite a profound  gaming experience. Only Bethesda and Looking Glass have ever really nailed that for me, given the player the breathing room to trip out a bit.

 

I think maybe Bethesda feel they have leaned too heavily on that in the past, hence them lurching not altogether too successfully in the opposite direction. It may be that they do find a happy halfway point that also covers all the things the OP mentioned, let's hope it's TES6, but I think I'll be dead before they manage it. 

[allsunday]

Yup, that's all there is to Skyrim. It's a good sandbox but awful RPG. I've never beat the game either and the only reason why I've sunk almost 4,000 hours into it is because of modding. I actually don't make more than one character for my Skyrim. Because the game is so bland, the only character I have fun with is a character that represents me. Skyrim's RPG mechanics are so inconsequential and linear that making several different characters to experience the exact same thing is a vain effort in my opinion. This is important because in order to have fun with Skyrim, what I do is put myself into the game (I role play myself) and then I have hundreds of mods thrown in so the game is unique but still lore friendly in my own way. I also use Requiem and 3DNPC, tons of monster mods from various authors, that romancing mod found here on Loverslab, Palaces and Castles enhanced, ETAC, JK's Skyrim, Moonpath, Wyrmstooth, Darkend, Clockwork, World of Rudra, Falskaar, and then a bunch of other mods I don't care to look up and write down, and now -- all of a sudden -- Skyrim is more appealing to play.  After experiencing Morrowind and the first two Fallout games, Skyrim and Fallout 4 are the equivalent to sitting down and staring at the wall by comparison.

I admit I still fall asleep and it's hard to stay awake sometimes doing quests that are so meaningless and redundant so that's where the second set of mods come in. The ones where I install the perfect player home, collect female followers, make a giant harem, and use the mods from this very website.  This gives me incentive to complete hold quests and earn the Jarls' favor to become thane to get more female followers to add to my harem.  Mwahahahah!

Finally, the third set of mods that come into play when I get bored of the first two types are the simple ones where I install unique (but also lore friendly) armors and weapons, then I use the Creation Kit to add them into a dungeon that I know I won't remember. Too many dungeon names and locations to remember. What this does is create an extra sense of surprise and reward for me when I do regular quests and I happen to discover these new items that nobody else playing Skyrim would ever have found. For example, I would put a full set of Infinity Blade Armor in a random Dwemer dungeon (because Dwemer ruins are normally mid to high level dungeons) so when I discover it then it'll actually be useful for me and it changes my goal of doing quests from fetching stupid NPC items or killing inconsequential NPC to finding actual treasure I can personally use.  I'll place dual swords in a bunch of dungeons, a powerful bow or crossbow with 20 arrows or bolts in a chest in other various dungeons, and more unique armor mods in other dungeons.  This almost turns Skyrim into a Legend of Zelda game or action RPG because it makes me want to continue exploring and discover powerful weapons and armor.  Because, let's face it, the vanilla unique weapons and armor were useless and so were the leveled list items.  The only useful weapons and armor were the ones you forged and upgraded and that's not very fun or interesting at all.  Nor was it very rewarding either considering how easy it was to level up smithing.

[Lodakai]

The answer is simple..  turn skyrim into a dance party!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNr-Vfy3eXU

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_ZLu9rZ7r8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8C4TCpdYlA

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-iYnFbORqM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZPY4AgE57k   here we go now

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZDeDh0zIx8  <---    awwwww yeeaaa!!

 

Boom

[D.I.Z]

if for you skyrim is not playable, any mod cant change that for you.

End of story.

[SmedleyDButler]

One of the other big issues is that Skyrim feels closed in a way - because it is. You're artificially trapped in this one province and due to Beth's modern scaling philosophy it feels quite small (especially if you play with a stretched out timescale). I mean, it makes sense that most of your game will take place there, but it would have been nice if from the very beginning there were areas like Bruma or Beyond Reach giving us more to explore in Tamriel, instead we just got Solstheim. Hard to roleplay characters that don't have overwhelming ties to Skyrim if you can't go anywhere BUT Skyrim. Especially since you technically CAN noclip past Skyrim's southern and eastern borders - the land there is just unfinished.

 

Beyond Skyrim is of course looking to expand this, but they've worked for 5 years and have only put out one mod, and have said that the rest of BS is going to be SSE only (which cuts out 2/3rds of Skyrim players - and that's IF they ever release anything). There are also a few other mods such as the Grey Cowl of Nocturnal, which take you elsewhere, but they're tied to very specific storylines and put you mostly on rails (because obviously the mod author can't make all of Tamriel solo).

[Kuroyami]

While I cannot specifically speak for Fallout, this seems a problem with most of at least Bethesda's ES games, though I have not played Arena or Daggerfall - maybe those are better at this, I'm not sure. But certainly it is a problem - most of the advancement you do is in your character's level, skills, etc. and while there is some level of technical advancement when it comes to quests, it can easily feel hollow, when it should feel like an accomplishment. In some cases, this could be due to the fact that it is down to how a questline advances, i.e how fast you can progress to a significant point, no matter if that is the end of a questline, or an important interim point.   

 

One of my first playthroughs, likely fourth I think, was meant to focus on MQ/Companions/DB. That is mostly how I've played the game - not trying to do everything on a single character. But more to the point, with that character I started the game, and within the hour, I was able to go far enough into the Companions questline to become a Werewolf. I felt it was too quick. So I restarted with a mod that made the progression, even just to that point, take a bit longer. Otherwise, some other questlines are long enough that getting to the end point does feel worthwhile, even if that basically is it, and there won't be too much recognition of your actions, even at times from the very same faction you are the head of. The odd part is that the game is capable of this, and for some things, does properly recognize your actions. But in the majority of cases, it does not. Nazeem's constant or near-constant mention of the PC not having been to the Cloud District, even when you are Thane of that Hold - for example. A very noticeable thing, that is famous for lack of attention to detail. 

 

There are points where the lack is, understandable, thought that does not completely excuse the lack. Sure, this is work, as I well know - i.e the Shark Race Mod I'm writing for. From Bethesda's perspective, or more importantly one writer working on a quest, it may be fine to have it be simple, and that can work. But what if the quest's very nature, can and perhaps, should, be more dynamic? Should there be a mention of the player's race(with a failsafe line if playing a non-vanilla race)? Should the quest take notice of the player's factions? If the player is a Vampire? And so on, of course. It may seem that during development of quest, things like that are not as important as just getting the quest working in-game. Should it work without major flaws, then maybe details like that could be added. But in a lot of cases, they never were - I find it interesting that no one in the game questions an Elven, or Khajiit/Argonain Dragonborn, for instance. 

 

The point which I think is the worst at this, isn't even Skyrim or it's DLC. Rather I think Oblivion's Shivering Isles was the worst about this, no matter how good it is otherwise. Slight spoiler, which may not be too important but still, it lies, perhaps, in the fact that Bethesda isn't good about letting the player really be, "in-charge" of anything. Have not played it myself, but I know FO4's Institute ending is very similar in that regard. 

 

There are other points where I feel ridiculous choices were made, and in some of them, it may be that they are just bugs that were never really fixed, or it was thought to be fine. Such as the fact that things like Rabbits, Foxes, Horses, Chickens, etc, can report crimes. Um, why? They cannot speak, for one. Not sure how much I have to say that is foolish, or perhaps how much that has really annoyed me. I will say the Crime system is better in Skyrim, but a flaw like that makes the improvements almost worthless. 

[allsunday]

 

 

While I cannot specifically speak for Fallout, this seems a problem with most of at least Bethesda's ES games, though I have not played Arena or Daggerfall - maybe those are better at this, I'm not sure. But certainly it is a problem - most of the advancement you do is in your character's level, skills, etc. and while there is some level of technical advancement when it comes to quests, it can easily feel hollow, when it should feel like an accomplishment. In some cases, this could be due to the fact that it is down to how a questline advances, i.e how fast you can progress to a significant point, no matter if that is the end of a questline, or an important interim point.

 

One of my first playthroughs, likely fourth I think, was meant to focus on MQ/Companions/DB. That is mostly how I've played the game - not trying to do everything on a single character. But more to the point, with that character I started the game, and within the hour, I was able to go far enough into the Companions questline to become a Werewolf. I felt it was too quick. So I restarted with a mod that made the progression, even just to that point, take a bit longer. Otherwise, some other questlines are long enough that getting to the end point does feel worthwhile, even if that basically is it, and there won't be too much recognition of your actions, even at times from the very same faction you are the head of. The odd part is that the game is capable of this, and for some things, does properly recognize your actions. But in the majority of cases, it does not. Nazeem's constant or near-constant mention of the PC not having been to the Cloud District, even when you are Thane of that Hold - for example. A very noticeable thing, that is famous for lack of attention to detail.

 

There are points where the lack is, understandable, thought that does not completely excuse the lack. Sure, this is work, as I well know - i.e the Shark Race Mod I'm writing for. From Bethesda's perspective, or more importantly one writer working on a quest, it may be fine to have it be simple, and that can work. But what if the quest's very nature, can and perhaps, should, be more dynamic? Should there be a mention of the player's race(with a failsafe line if playing a non-vanilla race)? Should the quest take notice of the player's factions? If the player is a Vampire? And so on, of course. It may seem that during development of quest, things like that are not as important as just getting the quest working in-game. Should it work without major flaws, then maybe details like that could be added. But in a lot of cases, they never were - I find it interesting that no one in the game questions an Elven, or Khajiit/Argonain Dragonborn, for instance.

 

The point which I think is the worst at this, isn't even Skyrim or it's DLC. Rather I think Oblivion's Shivering Isles was the worst about this, no matter how good it is otherwise. Slight spoiler, which may not be too important but still, it lies, perhaps, in the fact that Bethesda isn't good about letting the player really be, "in-charge" of anything. Have not played it myself, but I know FO4's Institute ending is very similar in that regard.

 

There are other points where I feel ridiculous choices were made, and in some of them, it may be that they are just bugs that were never really fixed, or it was thought to be fine. Such as the fact that things like Rabbits, Foxes, Horses, Chickens, etc, can report crimes. Um, why? They cannot speak, for one. Not sure how much I have to say that is foolish, or perhaps how much that has really annoyed me. I will say the Crime system is better in Skyrim, but a flaw like that makes the improvements almost worthless.

 

 

Have you not tried Morrowind either? It may be too late because the game clearly has not aged well -- even with the best graphical mods, Morrowind's animations are poor and sloppy and it's combat system is clunkier than a rusty Dwemer gate but I assure you the RPG mechanics of Morrowind were spot on excellent. My taste in gaming has NOT changed all these years. I'm always up for a good RPG, especially in an open world. But Oblivion, then Fallout 3, then Skyrim, and the most recent Fallout 4 are just atrociously dull. New Vegas was very okay (having some original members of Fallout 2 working on it helped immensely). But back to the original point, comparing Morrowind to Skyrim.

I remember arriving at Seyda Neen, the first town you start in. I remember the amazing exploration and experiences I had. There were short quests with the towns NPCs that were definitely more interesting than the ones you get in Skyrim. It's been over a decade and I still remember finding that stupid wood elf's ring for him, how one of the Argonians in town was a shady bastard who lived in a rundown hut, and how there was something mysterious about the light house. Then another of my most memorable experiences was to explore along the coast of Seyda Neen. I remember finding gold in a tree stump and finding two or three dungeons jist along the coast and raiding the fuck out of them. I even remember a dungeon being submerged underwater and when I went in I got my ass handed to me by a bunch of creepy mages. This was just a small amount of memorable experiences from many others and all within just the first town in Morrowind. And it was a very small town!

Compare this to Skyrim. You finish the ridiculously long and boring intro only to come out of a cave and you can go anywhere you want but let's say you wanted to go to Riverwood so you head there and the only events of interest are some stupid standing stones and one mine filled with 3 or 4 bandits. That's all along the coast of Riverwood. There's nothing else. You get to Riverwood and talk to the townsfolk and nothing is interesting except for helping the shop keeper and his sister retrieve their dragon claw from Bleak Falls Barrow. Bleak Falls was a decent dungeon in all honesty but that's it, it was neither good nor bad. That's pretty much Riverwood in a nutshell. There's not much to say about the stupid love triangle in town nor is there anything very cool about later discovering that Delphine was once a Blade. If there were anything else else amazing about Riverwood, I couldn't be bothered to remember it because most of Skyrim was just so mediocre. Unfortunately this pattern repeats itself throughout Skyrim. It's an unbearable game without mods.

[27X]

 

 

Is there a mod that turns Skyrim into Dragon's Dogma or The Witcher

 

No.

 

No there is not.

 

 

And all of that same stuff was also achieved in Record of Lodoss War, which is almost forty years old is my point. 

 

Villains that were three dimensional, and a world somewhat balanced between realism and purist fantasy but with the very tried and true fantime plot elements.

 

The difference between is literally challenge and depth of that challenge. Bethesda became afraid of the failure state, and it shows in spades.

 

As a designer, I understand implicitly why they did this, and it's one of the reasons the game has sold 30M copies, without even considering 64's sales. You can set it on anything but the top two difficulties and literally just pick up any weapon or spell and spam your way to the game's conclusion, and no one ever tells you "no" or "our differences make ________ unavoidable", without giving you an alternate thing/outcome/item that's just as good or better somewhere even close by.

 

There are no stakes, no fates, no consequences, and there's very little learning curve to any of the progression states. You click on things to give yourself the ability to click on other things to make more of the red of the enemy that runs at you full speed disappear in larger chunks faster.

 

That's as deep as Skyrim gets, and while you could say "that was a gen thing, and a date and time thing", that argument is defenestrated sharply because Fallout 4 is also a thing, and other than crafting and then shooting stuff with some completely absurd weapons, you're not really learning to do things or plumbing the depths of a system, again. You're just playing dress up and clicking the red away, hopefully faster than the enemy is doing the same to you.

 

Given sales numbers, there is obvious and strong appeal in that. 

 

As a player that is boring as hell. Just bland as fuck. See that mountain? Yeah I can climb it and then what? Did I climb to learn some badass skill that will be completely op to this kind of enemy but then make me vulnerable to this enemy? Am I finally learning that one mage skill that will turn me into a bearded god of death instead of a mewling pin cushion? Am I attempting to lure one of the bad guys with doubts to my cause with super badass lute-fu and sick ultragay bard dance?

 

No, I'm climbing that mountain without climbing gear because bethesda can't stand the thought maybe I should earn craft and buy climbing gear because someone with the reigns made the decision that nothing can require more than ten minutes worth of work to resolve 100% on my favor, including the literal god that opposes my path, and when I get to the top the old guy will give me the magic woobie because I picked the very obvious best response and when he turns to leave and I use the woobie to vaporize him, none of his equally old and powerful cabal buddies will do jack shit about it other to proclaim how awesome at betrayal and woobie-tude I am, instead of say harrying me for the rest of my campaign with crazy ass curse magic and a flood of wizardly shit or the like.

 

Meanwhile in Dargon's Dargma, if I kill a vendor I may lose access to certain things in the game forever because no other vendor has them, and with a click of a switch my godly might is swiftly rendered into "well son that's great or whatever, but I'm gonna now plant this ______ in your buttcheeks with alarming alacrity and strength cause I'm about 10 levels higher than you and you probably shouldn't have a picked a fight yet until you learned some stuff, like dodging, and also I'm a dragon." While you can learn all kinds of tricks and switch to learn and see what you like without much penalty, you're going to have specialize, you're going to have to commit and your stats and skills reflect that permanently.

 

The reason this is even still a discussion at all re TESV is "there are mods for that", because in the vanilla state Skyrim is kind of a play and forget clicky fest at best, and the rewards for clickying all the clicky things is basically more clicking, and very few obstacles in the game are unclickable, because Bethesda has become super risk averse.

 

[Pauduan]

My problem with The Witcher (I haven't played any except the 3rd part) is that you have a fixed character with a set of fixed skills, and he is put into a world that reacts to his choices. And then too, only in a few ways. If you go through it a couple times, you know what you'll have to say/do to get the outcome you want. The programming flowchart for a game can only get so wide/deep.

 

Skyrim though, plants a character completely under the player's control, into a fixed game world. You can change what you want the world to be - what it looks like, and what you can get out of it. Since this is Loverslab, you can also make it more historically accurate (let's just call it that). Sure it isn't perfect, but what is?

 

They are two completely different philosophies. I haven't tired of playing the game since it came out, but then I still enjoy playing the 2001 Deus Ex.

[Kuroyami]

 

Have you not tried Morrowind either? It may be too late because the game clearly has not aged well -- even with the best graphical mods, Morrowind's animations are poor and sloppy and it's combat system is clunkier than a rusty Dwemer gate but I assure you the RPG mechanics of Morrowind were spot on excellent. My taste in gaming has NOT changed all these years. I'm always up for a good RPG, especially in an open world. But Oblivion, then Fallout 3, then Skyrim, and the most recent Fallout 4 are just atrociously dull. New Vegas was very okay (having some original members of Fallout 2 working on it helped immensely). But back to the original point, comparing Morrowind to Skyrim.

 

I have, and the one thing that bothers me, is the pacing. But it is not just the walk speed either, it's a number of choices made that seem, not exactly out of place, just lacking in solid reasoning. More, "Do this because you have no other option", than, "Do this because of this reason". 

 

Otherwise, the issue I have with Morrowind is, Exploration. I do not mind exploring in games, but Morrowind does not look at it as optional. You cannot solely focus on the MQ in Morrowind either, since you will be forced, at least after a few quests, to go do something else, no matter if you want to or not, or if perhaps it makes sense to go pay more attention to something else for a few days or more. It is an element of the game which is not optional, but required. 

 

I still have a playthrough with a character who has finished the Temple quests, and is not too far into the MQ. Another problem with the Temple quests, which several of them had, was - go to the other side of the Island and do this - when it is either you use the boats or Slit Striders(which both are more like changing Buses than they should be), or you walk the entire distance - if you have the time for that. 

 

Main reason for the Temple quests was to see the inaccuracy that occurs at some point in the MQ, though I'm not sure if I'll ever have the interest in finishing that game. 

 

Personally I've preferred Alternate Start mods, and only rarely use the vanilla intro in Skyrim. 

 

Otherwise, I'd agree there is a lack of consequence in Skyrim, though I would also say that in some cases, there shouldn't be any. Some actions should not be widespread, no matter what was done. It depends on what happens, not just that it happened. 

 

Not sure of it just yet, but with one of the characters I have for the Shark Race mod, the quest involving the character is all about their story, and end with a fairly hefty choice on the player's part, even if it is still rather simple.

 

 

This quest is only in the planning stage, and nothing for it is in the mod yet - save for the follower(right now the character requires winning a Brawl to get as a follower, but this will be changed in the future - the following outlines some of what is planned). 

 

One of the follower's added by the mod is Moku, who resides in Riverwood, helping a little at Hod's mill, etc. The player will have the option to recruit her as a follower from the start, with a simple dialog. If the player talks to her(while a follower) and learns a bit of her backstory, they can eventually learn that she served the Imperial Legion in the Great War, and yet, was disheartened to see the Empire falter in it's wake - they will soon get a letter from a courier, saying vaguely that someone is interested in meeting both you(the player), and Moku. 

 

Also, when first entering Riverwood, the player may see an Altmer get up from the bench outside the Sleeping Giant Inn, and leave in the direction of Whiterun, traveling to Solitude. 

 

The exact location of the meeting is not clear yet, but regardless, you will find that you are meeting with a small group of Thalmor. A Justiciar will speak with the player, asking if they truly know the full details about the companion. The player does, but not the full story. A perspective that the player has not heard yet - which is that Moku is responsible for the merciless killings of many Altmer, both during and after the war - all of them Thalmor. 

 

This Justiciar will provide the player with a choice. You either give Moku to them, or refuse, and for that, you both die. Giving her up, gets the player a substantial gold reward, but this will not only force you, the player, to watch as Moku kills the Thalmor soldiers, then is paralyzed, and killed with a few words from the Justiciar - you loose her completely as a follower in this case, and cannot save her. Refuse, and you just fight a group of Thalmor, with only menial rewards, and a deeper respect from Moku. 

 

 

[Lodakai]

Blame the idiocy of the sheeple for the dumbing down of gaming in general.   But have faith, for there are bored geniuses poking and prodding at every lump of turd to fertilize their precious saplings of joy.  It's just that you have to accept that these little sprouts will inevitably bear dingle berries as fruit. There's only so much you can do with a turd.

[Myst42]

Maybe... You're just missing the right mods (Just maybe)

When I start modding a game, my ultimate goal is to be able to play it the way I like it

This mostly means roleplaying the right kinds of characters with the pertinent choices

 

On big terms, I like to play good guys (girls) with some kind of specialty skills

So looking at the things that bother me, there are most daedtic quests, thieves guild and dark brotherhood that push you to evil because "hurr durr you're a greedy bastard"

Well, fuck that, I like doing good deeds, so I got myself al the "X for good guys" mods I could find on Nexus

Wanted my game to feel immersive, so I got iNeed and now food and drinks do matter and I have something to spend my craploads of gold I get for all them sold dragon bones

Wanted specialization classes to be special so I got Ordinator, and so far, it's working wonderfully. My main is a spellsword specialized in lighning damage, plus some assassin stuff, I made a paladin using restoration and heavy armor, and a necromancer girl who just sits back and enjoys while her skeletons and reanimated to all the dirty work

 

However, if you want true consequences, that might be out of our reach yet, the gaming world is not that advanced that I know of. So we have to stick to the storyline as they planned it and expand to whatever degree of liberty thay allows and mods expand a bit more.

There are consequences for defeating Alduin you know, also some for ending the civil war etc...

But in the end, you have to remember it IS a game we're talking about here. A game is a story with some variations in the end.

It's a movie where you get to call some shots, but you still wont get to direct it. You can't have a story where you deliver the One Ring to Mount Doom or save the world from the evil aliens after banishing Ctulhu to the depths of R'lyeh. You do have to defeat Alduin and Miraak because this is Skyrim, not something else. If you don't like it, well, that sucks, but true VR is still not existent in our world. Maybe in the future.