Has Beth lost its edge on RPG gaming?

[Captain Cobra]

and wants the almighty modding tools to do everything your way.

 

That's the point of mods tho.

[Veta]

Those pictures made me want to explore the Commonwealth some more honestly. Well, except for the one of Sanctuary Hills.

 

Anyways, I see your problem now and I honestly don't give a flying feather about your own thoughts now, that aren't facts. And I know I won't ever convince ya so I'm not gonna waste anymore time explaining. All I will say is, you're definably someone who doesn't enjoy Bethesda's games, but rather just enjoy the modding community. I'm someone who enjoys both Bethesda's games and the modding community.

 

And yes, I mean you just flat-out don't enjoy Bethesda's games. Maybe certain exceptions due to either story or other things but for the most part, you sound like an usual PC-arse to me (no offense) who complains about trivial matters and wants the almighty modding tools to do everything your way.

 

I seems awfully strange why you defend the game with such passion , are you in any way affiliated with the game ?

 

What does modding have to do with any of this ? When I talk about a game being good or not I'm talking about vanilla version, modded versions dont count.

 

I do enjoy bethesda games , just not a fanboy who no matter what a developer shits out will eat it and says thank you .

 

Maybe you are right,  maybe I have turned into arse who can't enjoy games as much as I did a few years back and now goes online and tries to ruin them for other people too  but me not enjoying fallout 4 because I'm an asshole doesn't excuse the objective bad quality of the game, does it ?

 

 

Also you should try and avoid making random assumptions about people you don't know cause it clouds your judgment.

[Jusey1]

 

That's the point of mods tho.

 

I agree. That is the point of mods. However, it isn't a valid excuse to bash the base game because they didn't do things specifically the way you want them to be done. Their is a difference between preferences and actual quality.

 

For example, that Automatron DLC? I would've preferred to have Eyebots as part of the Workbench but that didn't happened. However, I still respect the quality of the DLC itself as is, because it isn't a bad DLC and adds quite a bit of content, that is actually pretty dang good for the most part.

[Jusey1]

 

I seems awfully strange why you defend the game with such passion , are you in any way affiliated with the game ?

 

What does modding have to do with any of this ? When I talk about a game being good or not I'm talking about vanilla version, modded versions dont count.

 

I do enjoy bethesda games , just not a fanboy who no matter what a developer shits out will eat it and says thank you .

 

Maybe you are right,  maybe I have turned into arse who can't enjoy games as much as I did a few years back and now goes online and tries to ruin them for other people too  but me not enjoying fallout 4 because I'm an asshole doesn't excuse the objective bad quality of the game, does it ?

 

 

Also you should try and avoid making random assumptions about people you don't know cause it clouds your judgment.

 

 

1stly, I defend anything that is a good game (song, movie, etc as well). If you were bashing Morrowind, I would be defending Morrowind. Now, if you were bashing a game that is actually pretty average or flat-out bad, then I wouldn't care.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. Every game has it's bads (well almost every game at least), so I can understand if you're bashing on a very specific flaw of the game, and an actual flaw too mind you. Not a preference thing... Then I most likely would agree with ya, which generally I do agree with people on the flaws of a game. (Fallout 4's biggest flaw being that dialogue system. It's pretty dang bad for the most part).

 

And no, you're not a Bethesda fan if you don't necessary understand the type of games they aim to make. Bethesda makes Open World RPGs where you can do almost anything as you wish in their creative and amazingly beautiful worlds. Hell, it is pretty dang amazing on how Bethesda's games even work.

 

Like seriously, do you even realize that Bethesda's personal engine is probably the only engine that can do the things that we see in their games? I really can't think of any other engines that can allow anything, and everything, being interact-able. From every item being picked up to the cars and trashcans having their own thing. Their is usually hundreds of items within your small radius that is being active, even when just idling. That is a lot of work for the engine and most other engines would just make most items as "static" because it is easier for the PC/consoles to render and work with static items.

 

So, yes. There could easily be some rendering or optimizing issues with the game for anybody on the PC or even the consoles, depending on what is going on in-game. Or when you're far away. It's because that their is just so much on going on in the game. Hell, this is why Bethesda games can crash much easier than any other game (at least from what I've played). And this is just talking about the objects, not even counting in all of scripts running, and the AI doing their thing. (Remember, most NPCs are still doing their thing even when you aren't around).

 

This is why Bethesda games don't always have good graphics, shadows, or anything else in that department. It's because, with all of these things going on, putting more load on it would be too much for the common gaming PC/consoles, which will then hurt their profits as well as limiting on the number of people who can play their game.

 

So, when it comes to that sort of stuff, don't complain and just think about those whys of them. Then you might come to appreciate the type of worlds that Bethesda really makes. It's why I love their worlds so much. Hell, I've killed myself on accident a lot in Fallout 4 due to being curious (was curious if red containers can blow up or not... And a lot of them can).

 

So... Ye'h, you're too busy complaining about some minor graphical issues that doesn't really mean a thing and aren't appreciating all of the work that Bethesda has to do to literally put all of these things together in this world (if you believe that it is handcrafted, which I strongly believe that Todd Howard is telling the truth about them handcrafting their worlds now-on)... I kinda do count that as an asshole-move, no offense again...

 

And yes, when I am talking about their worlds being beautiful, and amazing... I'm not just talking about how they look but all of the details, attention, and care they do put in for their worlds. For either comedy, referencing culture, or whatever other reasons they have. Their is a lot of care in their worlds, and it's my favorite thing about Bethesda's games. It's the biggest thing they have always done right in their games... And then Bethesda top it all off by giving their players in-game tools (crafting system) to really use their world and craft up their own imagination in it. Be it with armor, weapons, or the new entire building system... And then later we'll have the official big tool itself for even further creative imagination.

 

And everything else, like quests, combat, etc. They all work nicely and amazing. Well, except for the dialogue system (again, sometimes it works and is alright. Otherwise, it's pretty meh-average or flat out bad).

 

And most of what I jsut said can be applied to any Bethesda game since Morrowind. Now, each one has it's own clustered of ups and downs too but for the most part of what I said can be applied.

 

As for me making random assumptions, I have a headache today and am a bit tired of this argument. So, I kinda did wanted to end the argument there... But then this post happened.

[DocClox]

 

What a very odd thing to say! I'm not interested in reviewing the game. I'm interested in how much fun I have playing it. And if a radiant quest works out just as stale and boring as if they had created 50,000 copy-paste quests then it's still stale and boring no matter how technically adept the implementation.

I was explaining how Radiant Quests and the Misc/Side Quests are two different things. I wasn't saying anything about Radiant Quests being good or what not.

 

 

Oh do behave. This is what you wrote:

 

As for from a player-point of the view... That doesn't matter and if the player doesn't notice, that's fine. They can choose to be ignorance or research on game designing so that they may learn. And when you're ignorant to something, then you have no right to criticize it because you don't know what you're talking about. Which is a major problem with a lot of people. Barely anyone bothers to do some research on their games but instead try to be a critic based on what they've played, which is just a laugh-able thing to try out.

 

So, both on paper and in the actual game files, Skyrim and Fallout 4 don't have as much as copy-pasted quests as Morrowind. Simply because Radiant Quests are only listed as One individual thing. Not something that was wasted on copying and making more of. So that argument is competely useless.

 

Remember, gotta look at this stuff like a critic or game developer. Not as a player. This is mostly because a common player's viewpoint is bias and has no idea what is really going on beneath the surface of the game.

Now to me, that reads like "So I admit that there is no difference from a gameplay perspective between a radiant quest and all the possible copy-past quests that it represents, but that's not important because players are ignorant and therefore radiant quests are acceptable while the equivalent set of non-radiants would be bad".

 

Which is either nonsense or else it's very, very odd depending on whether that's something you truly believe or whether you're just not expressing yourself very clearly.

 

Moving on ...

 

They're fine to have but yes, they are stale and boring due to how simple they are. I was only just pointing it out that they aren't the same thing as the others, which is why it is far worse to copy-paste Misc/Side Quests then to use Radiant Quests, like in Morrowind.

 

Yeah, because fast travel to back street fashions, shoot the turret on the roof, shoot the first guard as he comes to investigate, kill the turret in the shopping cart armor, shoot the second guard, go in the door, disable the tripwire, sneak forward until you can get both guards and the turret in one VATS session, then through the door, take the first door on the left and kill both raiders. On the way back take the other door from the main shop area, and pick the lock at the end of the corridor to find the kidnapped settler. Go out, fast travel to the settlement to report and then back to Preston for the next one doesn't get at all stale after the tenth time you've done it.

 

Whereas in Morrowind - a roughly similar quest would be to rescue Hannat Zainsubani from Mamaea. Except that it only happens once, and there isn't an equivalent quest in every town for every possible combination on NPC and base. And you don't get a quest marker to follow. Hell, you don't even know he's being held when you get the quest - it's just an old man asking if you could keep an eye out for new of his son.

 

And frankly, that seems to be the pattern throughout Morrowind. Sure, there are generic quests, but they tend to be all tweaked. There are three or four "deliver a potion" quests, for instance, but one of them is someone in a safe area while another is to a fighter in a daedric ruin in the wilderness. I one case you have to buy the potions from a vendor (or persuade her to donate them) in another you're given it but told that the quest giver would like it back and that you're expected to use a spell.

 

You don't that those small variations in radiant quests. You can't get those small variations in radiant quests. It's in the nature of the things.

 

"Are you suggesting that the game would have been improved if all the less important NPCs had all been called Bandit or Settler then? Because all the Minor NPCs in F4 have the exact same dialogue as well. It's just that they're generated much like the radiant quest are. I suppose that might be an improvement if you think like a critic, but I can't see it improving the experience of playing the actual game."

 

I never said that. I am not sure how you got that idea from. I was just saying how the generic NPCs even got improvement, despite not even having names, when compared to their Morrowind counterparts. Nothing wrong with improving on the generic spawned NPCs at all.

 

Your assertion was that Morrowind suffered in comparison because all the NPCs al had the same dialogue apart from the ones on the major quest lines. We've since established that that isn't in fact true. In contrast, in F4 all the settlers say exactly the same things in all places, which if that's a metric you  want to consider puts F4 distinctly behind Morrowind. Hell in F4 they don't even have names.

 

Tell me they look prettier or have better AI and I won't argue, but that wasn't the point under contention.

 

"

Hmm. I think I can safely say you're in the minority there. The amount of hate for Preston Garvey is staggering, even among outright fans of the game."

 

I was talking about the line in general.

 

"In general?" How general can you get about one line of dialogue from one NPC?  That's about as specific as you can get!

 

Preston wasn't the first NPC in a Bethesda game that used the "I'll mark it on your map" line, and people don't like Preston because of his infinity Radiant Quests. (They really should've gave that Quest Giver job to someone else, not Preston). Not necessary because of this line.

 

The don't like the radiant quests. The dislike of Preston is a reflection of this dislike, since he's the one that gives them out. They don't like that line because that's the Preston he says when he gives them out. Was that unclear in some way?

 

Let's see: Minuteman, BoS, RR, Institute are FO4's main four, which Oblivion has it's own main four. There's also Forged, Covenant, Vault 81, Atom Catz, Triggermen Gang, Children of Atom, Gunners, Bunker Hill, and the Pillars of the Community. And if you wanna count Automatron, which adds the Rust Devils faction to the game world.

Well, I was only considering factions the player could join rather than every organization in the game world. On reflection that might not have been what I said, so that one's on me.

 

Still, if we apply that criteria, the only one I didn't already mention is the Atom Cats. Possibly Covenant if there's a way join the faction rather than eradicating it - I've never tried that approach. Bunker Hill at a stretch.

 

Of course, if you want to talk about factions such as Bunker Hill that are only notionally joinable, let's see ... all the daedric princes have their own factions of which the player is technically a member after completing the quest, so that's another what? Sixteen? If you want groups that the player can't join (such as the Gunners), we have bandits, marauders, necromancers, beggars (each town gets its own faction) pirates, guards (one faction per town), Dremora and we still haven't got down the the purely admin ones like the faction of all the people the Serethi sisters don't like in Aleswell

 

Oh,and if you want to include Automatron then there's the Nine Divines faction from KOTN to consider. I left that out because it didn't seem fair to compare add on content against a game that hasn't got all its DLC yet. But if you insist, there's also your rank in the Courts of Madness as well as your progression in the Courts of Delirium and Mania ... if you really want to argue the toss, I'm sure I can dig up more.

 

So the shops stay open 24/7. Big deal. The schedules are nice to have (I played a bit of Morroblivion and walked into the Balmora Mages' Guild to find everyone in the middle of a meeting in the lecture area - made a pleasant change) but honesty, their absence in the game isn't the sort of damning indictment you seem to suggest."

 

Because the games are open world games, which are suppose to get you to immersive yourself into the game's world. When the game's world is full of idling NPCs who does nothing except maybe talk to themselves from time to time 24/7... The immersion breaks easily.

 

And yet, oddly enough, I don't think I've ever heard anyone (other than yourself, obviously) talk about Morrowind and say "that game needs to be more immersive". The animations and the combat mechanics seem to be the main grumbles. I mean, obviously having schedules for NPCs would have been nice, but I'm really not convinced that their absence detratcts from the game in any substantial way. But hey, maybe the point is just that important to you. I suggest we agree to differ here.

 

Also, I'm dropping the dungeon-talk because it'll start to repeat a bit because you won't believe the truth due to your own stubbornness. You're just refusing to think about it, and there's nothing I can do about that.

 

Hey, everyone! It's a talking pot! Apparently the Kettle is really, really black.

[Jusey1]

 

Now to me, that reads like "So I admit that there is no difference from a gameplay perspective between a radiant quest and all the possible copy-past quests that it represents, but that's not important because players are ignorant and therefore radiant quests are acceptable while the equivalent set of non-radiants would be bad".

Which is either nonsense or else it's very, very odd depending on whether that's something you truly believe or whether you're just not expressing yourself very clearly.

 

 

I was explaining the differences between Radiant Quests, and Misc/Side Quests. Giving you a really good reason why Radiant Quests are better to have than to copy and paste the same Misc/Side quests for around 4-7 times. Though yes, you're correct that the average player wouldn't be able to tell, which is why they shouldn't criticize unless they've done research.

 

And yes, the equivalent set of non-radiants would be bad. Because they've spent time on copying those quests while they only need to do a Radiant quest once. Would you rather them make a few quick Radiant quests and be done with it or continue wasting time copying fetch or kill this quests all over the world?

 

 

Yeah, because fast travel to back street fashions, shoot the turret on the roof, shoot the first guard as he comes to investigate, kill the turret in the shopping cart armor, shoot the second guard, go in the door, disable the tripwire, sneak forward until you can get both guards and the turret in one VATS session, then through the door, take the first door on the left and kill both raiders. On the way back take the other door from the main shop area, and pick the lock at the end of the corridor to find the kidnapped settler. Go out, fast travel to the settlement to report and then back to Preston for the next one doesn't get at all stale after the tenth time you've done it.

Whereas in Morrowind - a roughly similar quest would be to rescue Hannat Zainsubani from Mamaea. Except that it only happens once, and there isn't an equivalent quest in every town for every possible combination on NPC and base. And you don't get a quest marker to follow. Hell, you don't even know he's being held when you get the quest - it's just an old man asking if you could keep an eye out for new of his son.

 

And frankly, that seems to be the pattern throughout Morrowind. Sure, there are generic quests, but they tend to be all tweaked. There are three or four "deliver a potion" quests, for instance, but one of them is someone in a safe area while another is to a fighter in a daedric ruin in the wilderness. I one case you have to buy the potions from a vendor (or persuade her to donate them) in another you're given it but told that the quest giver would like it back and that you're expected to use a spell.

 

You don't that those small variations in radiant quests. You can't get those small variations in radiant quests. It's in the nature of the things.

 

 

Firstly, you must've misunderstand me at some point. I never flat out "praise Radiant quests" as amazing quests or anything the like... I was just saying I rather have them than Bethesda to waste their time. So the first paragraph of yours was completely unnecessary as you're just comparing a radiant quest to an actual side quest that was more unique than copied. And I'm still greatly confused on why...

 

Also, that last sentence is useless. Don't tell me what I already know.

 

Secondly, that example you give? You're still flat-out delivering an item, and there is a lot of item-deliveries quests in Morrowind. Yes, maybe the location of the NPC is different each time but you're still doing the same type of thing. There is also a lot of escort quests you can find on the road... Ya know, just an NPC trying to find his way and you tell him that you'll escort them. Then there is the lot of those Barbarian quests (which Bethesda even poked fun at in Tribunal). And the list goes on.

 

It kinda gets boring doing quests like those over and over again, and Morrowind has a lot of Misc quests like that.

 

 

 

Your assertion was that Morrowind suffered in comparison because all the NPCs al had the same dialogue apart from the ones on the major quest lines. We've since established that that isn't in fact true. In contrast, in F4 all the settlers say exactly the same things in all places, which if that's a metric you  want to consider puts F4 distinctly behind Morrowind. Hell in F4 they don't even have names.

 

Tell me they look prettier or have better AI and I won't argue, but that wasn't the point under contention.

 

you're forgetting what I've said earlier. Generic NPCs (unnamed ones) aren't suppose to have much to them in the first place, and be very similar to one another. Just like the majority of Morrowind's NPCs, and don't make me play Morrowind and do a spam of screenshots. I can easily prove how similar or even exactly the same the dialogue is between every single NPC in Balmora, for example.

 

And that's the thing. In Skyrim and Fallout 4, named NPCs all have unique personalities to them and different things to say. While most of Morrowind's NPCs flat-out act like generic NPCs, which is a bad thing.

 

It's fine to have generic nameless NPCs for the player to use or kill, but not every single NPC should be generic, which is the problem with Morrowind's NPCs. (Well, not every single one but you get de' point).

 

 

 

"In general?" How general can you get about one line of dialogue from one NPC?  That's about as specific as you can get!

 

...

...

It should've been obvious on what I meant. I was talking about the line in general, since the line is used by a lot of NPCs in both Skyrim, and Fallout 4. Not just Preston...

 

 

 

The don't like the radiant quests. The dislike of Preston is a reflection of this dislike, since he's the one that gives them out. They don't like that line because that's the Preston he says when he gives them out. Was that unclear in some way?

 

...

I don't see why someone would dislike a simple line because of one specific NPC says it, when there is a lot of other NPCs uses the same exact line. Why would Preston be the one to make people dislike said line? Nah. People dislike the spam of radiant quests from Preston, not that line.

 

 

 

Well, I was only considering factions the player could join rather than every organization in the game world. On reflection that might not have been what I said, so that one's on me.

Still, if we apply that criteria, the only one I didn't already mention is the Atom Cats. Possibly Covenant if there's a way join the faction rather than eradicating it - I've never tried that approach. Bunker Hill at a stretch.

 

Of course, if you want to talk about factions such as Bunker Hill that are only notionally joinable, let's see ... all the daedric princes have their own factions of which the player is technically a member after completing the quest, so that's another what? Sixteen? If you want groups that the player can't join (such as the Gunners), we have bandits, marauders, necromancers, beggars (each town gets its own faction) pirates, guards (one faction per town), Dremora and we still haven't got down the the purely admin ones like the faction of all the people the Serethi sisters don't like in Aleswell

 

Oh,and if you want to include Automatron then there's the Nine Divines faction from KOTN to consider. I left that out because it didn't seem fair to compare add on content against a game that hasn't got all its DLC yet. But if you insist, there's also your rank in the Courts of Madness as well as your progression in the Courts of Delirium and Mania ... if you really want to argue the toss, I'm sure I can dig up more.

 

 

You can become a Citizen of the Covenant if you take their side in the quest. Bunker Hill isn't a stretch. It has a leader, it has an order of things, and it is an organization which provide services. The leader specifically will take care of their main base and get the required services over time. Bunker Hill pretty much has everything that a faction would require to be properly established and working.

 

Also, I was only including factions which you can interact with at one point in time or has been mentioned as a working and established faction in the Commonwealth. I wasn't taking account for every single little detail, which would be very stupid to do because both games has a lot of "little" factions in order to control the NPCs from killing each other when they're suppose to be allies. So a lot of those factions you just mentioned would be pretty useless for this argument.

 

As for including DLCs... I would say just include KOTN since Automatron is basically the better version of KOTN (small quest, adds two new areas, new weapons/armor, etc. Just Automatron adds a bit more than KOTN), and both DLCs has one faction added and one "extra faction" added. (The extras being the Aurorians and Mechanist's Robots).

 

I wouldn't compare Shivering Isles yet in this argument until Far Harbor is out.

 

 

 

And yet, oddly enough, I don't think I've ever heard anyone (other than yourself, obviously) talk about Morrowind and say "that game needs to be more immersive". The animations and the combat mechanics seem to be the main grumbles. I mean, obviously having schedules for NPCs would have been nice, but I'm really not convinced that their absence detratcts from the game in any substantial way. But hey, maybe the point is just that important to you. I suggest we agree to differ here.

 

You don't hang out with oldschool TES fans then. The lack of "schedules" compared to Daggerfall was a huge complaint when Morrowind first came out. In Daggerfall, NPCs would disappear, shops would close, and all that lovely stuff during night. Which isn't as good as what we got in Oblvion and onward, but it was something that was nice, and wasn't in Morrowind... So thusly people complain, like usually, when something gets removed.

 

In either case though, the point of bringing this up is because it is a flat-out improvement in the newer games over Morrowind, and it is something which helps a lot with immersion, whether you care or not. You cannot disagree there.

 

Actually, funny thing. Daggerfall to Morrowind phrase is the biggest phrase Bethesda has done which has removed the MOST elements from their game. Don't know if ya knew or not.

[DocClox]

I was explaining the differences between Radiant Quests, and Misc/Side Quests. Giving you a really good reason why Radiant Quests are better to have than to copy and paste the same Misc/Side quests for around 4-7 times. Though yes, you're correct that the average player wouldn't be able to tell, which is why they shouldn't criticize unless they've done research.

Let's try an analogy here. Suppose you have a car that bangs and rattles and lurches its way down the road. It's never been able to exceed 25 miles per hour, it gets 4 miles to the gallon and it breaks down every three days or so. It's basically a piece of shit.

 

Now given that (for the purposes of this analogy) you're unfortunate enough to be stuck with this car, it doesn't really matter if the car was cobbled together from scrap metal and spare parts, or if it rolled off a computer guided laser precision production line. It's possible that the car was made on an incredibly efficient factory, that it only took five minutes from raw steel to finished piece-of-shit product, and that its deficiencies as a means of transport enable incredible efficiencies in the manufacturing process.

 

The thing is, from your point of view - that of the driver - the car remains a piece of shit regardless of the technology used to create it.

 

Similarly, if a set of copy-pasted quest are tedious and repetitive and boring, they remain tedious and repetitive and boring regardless of how cleverly they are implemented behind the scenes. Using a radiant quest may free up developer time to pose more teddy bears or something, but it doesn't make the actual quests more interesting.

 

The problem is that in Fallout 4 the radiants got boring fast. Which the side quests in Morrowind never really did.

 

Similarly, just as you shouldn't need to know if your piece of shit car was designed to run like that to be more efficient, or if it's inadequacies are result of time and poor maintenance, the player shouldn't have to research the development methodology behind a set of quests before saying "these quests are all fucking boring!"

 

I hope that's a little clearer.

 

Also, that last sentence is useless. Don't tell me what I already know.

Tell ya what, why don't you write down everything you know and I'll be careful not to tell you any of it. Shouldn't take you more than a minute.

 

Secondly, that example you give? You're still flat-out delivering an item, and there is a lot of item-deliveries quests in Morrowind.

You're still delivering an item, yes. The "flat out" sounds as if you intend to imply that the circumstance around each delivery quest are identical (as they would be in a radiant quest) and that isn't actually the case, as discussed just now.

 

Yes, maybe the location of the NPC is different each time but you're still doing the same type of thing.

Every time you do a quest you're doing the same type of thing, in that you're doing a quest. Can we infer from that that all quests are identical and of equal merit, given that they're all about questing? Leave the schoolboy debating tricks alone and argue properly, huh? I'm sure you can do it if you want to.

 

There is also a lot of escort quests you can find on the road... Ya know, just an NPC trying to find his way and you tell him that you'll escort them. Then there is the lot of those Barbarian quests (which Bethesda even poked fun at in Tribunal). And the list goes on.

If you're talking about the naked Nord quests, I believe there's three of them and I'd have said they were more of a running joke than a failure of imagination. I don't think you need to go to Tribunal to see them poking fun at it either: I'm pretty sure there's a point in Morrowind where the player gets to ask something like "what is it with you guys and witches, anyway?"

 

you're forgetting what I've said earlier. Generic NPCs (unnamed ones) aren't suppose to have much to them in the first place, and be very similar to one another. Just like the majority of Morrowind's NPCs,

Yeah right. And that piece-of-shit car I talked about earlier was designed to be a piece-of-shit because it made the manufacturing process easier. It still doesn't make it a good car. It doesn't make it fun to drive.

 

and don't make me play Morrowind and do a spam of screenshots. I can easily prove how similar or even exactly the same the dialogue is between every single NPC in Balmora, for example.

I have no doubt you can find a lot of similar dialogue screens in Balmora. I don't believe I've ever disputed similarity. You can probably find identical ones here and there. If you want to try and prove they're all exactly the same in all circumstances then knock yourself out.

 

And that's the thing. In Skyrim and Fallout 4, named NPCs all have unique personalities to them and different things to say. While most of Morrowind's NPCs flat-out act like generic NPCs, which is a bad thing.

 

Yeah. In Morrowind the important NPCs have had a some time spent on their personalities, just like they have in F4. The less important ones have had minimal effort spent on them. That's as opposed to none whatsoever in F4.

 

And now I expect you'll accuse me of missing the point because they're supposed to be interchangeable ciphers, and I'll respond by referring you once again to the car analogy. Oh, what fun we have!

 

It should've been obvious on what I meant. I was talking about the line in general, since the line is used by a lot of NPCs in both Skyrim, and Fallout 4. Not just Preston...

I suppose I should point out that my criticism was not of the line itself. I have nothing against those particular six words, even when arranged into that particular order. When I said my heart sank when I heard them, I had rather thought it would be clear from the context that I was talking about hearing Preston say them. Perhaps I was wrong to assume so much.

 

Still, you raise a valid point: the radiant quests from the other factions are just as dull as, (and in many cases cut and paste duplications of) the Minuteman radiants. It takes longer for them to wear out their welcome. Partly because there's a novelty in having the railroad say "go to X and kill Y"rather than the Minutemen, but once you realise they are in fact the same old quests, they are just as tedious.

 

So maybe it is important that other characters say "I'll mark it on your map". Thank you. I wouldn't have thought to mention it otherwise.

 

You can become a Citizen of the Covenant if you take their side in the quest. Bunker Hill isn't a stretch. It has a leader, it has an order of things, and it is an organization which provide services. The leader specifically will take care of their main base and get the required services over time. Bunker Hill pretty much has everything that a faction would require to be properly established and working.

 

About Covenant, I'll take your word. You can't join Bunker Hill. Bunker Hill joins you.

 

I wasn't taking account for every single little detail, which would be very stupid to do because both games has a lot of "little" factions in order to control the NPCs from killing each other when they're suppose to be allies. So a lot of those factions you just mentioned would be pretty useless for this argument.

 

As long as we're not telling each other things we already know, you might try and avoid telling me things I told you in the previous post. You wouldn't want anyone to thing you weren't reading the posts carefully now, would you?

 

As for including DLCs... I would say just include KOTN since Automatron is basically the better version of KOTN (small quest, adds two new areas, new weapons/armor, etc. Just Automatron adds a bit more than KOTN), and both DLCs has one faction added and one "extra faction" added. (The extras being the Aurorians and Mechanist's Robots).

I can't say I'm very much interested in your opinion of the relative merits of two add-ons, one of which I have yet to play. And I very much doubt we'll be having this discussion by the time I play Far Harbor.

 

Perhaps it's best if we restrict ourselves to a discussion of the base game?

 

You don't hang out with oldschool TES fans then. The lack of "schedules" compared to Daggerfall was a huge complaint when Morrowind first came out. In Daggerfall, NPCs would disappear, shops would close, and all that lovely stuff during night. Which isn't as good as what we got in Oblvion and onward, but it was something that was nice, and wasn't in Morrowind... So thusly people complain, like usually, when something gets removed.

Apparently not, since I've never heard anyone make that complaint. I mean I've only been playing the game for half the time since its release, but even so I'd expect there'd still be grumbles (as there are about the combat) if that was anything more than the knee-jerk "change is bad" reaction you get for all new games.

 

In either case though, the point of bringing this up is because it is a flat-out improvement in the newer games over Morrowind, and it is something which helps a lot with immersion, whether you care or not. You cannot disagree there.

 

And oddly enough, I haven't been disagreeing. As you would know if you'd been paying attention. We do disagree as to the magnitude of the benefit, and the degree to which the absence of schedules detract from Morrowind as a game. And on those two points you've not said anything to make me reconsider my position.

 

Actually, funny thing. Daggerfall to Morrowind phrase is the biggest phrase Bethesda has done which has removed the MOST elements from their game. Don't know if ya knew or not.

 

To be honest, I have no idea what you mean by the word "phrase" in that context. As such, it's rather hard to answer that.

 

But if it helps any, I've never played Daggerfall but I have it on reliable authority that it is a klck-ass game, and I'm sure I'd enjoy it immensely if I could just get past the graphics. Not sure if that answers your point or not, but that's all I really have to say about Daggerfall.

 

[Jusey1]

 

 

Using a radiant quest may free up developer time

 

 

That's the entire point of what I've been saying. I rather the developers use a radiant quest system instead of using mics/side quests for the same outcome. That way, the developers can put more time into other quests and content, enhancing them more and making them more unique from one another. I rather see more unique, and expansive side quests than seeing more side quests that are pretty simple and very similar to each other...

 

 

 

Tell ya what, why don't you write down everything you know and I'll be careful not to tell you any of it. Shouldn't take you more than a minute.

 

I have Autistic Memory... You really don't want me to type up everything I know about The Elder Scrolls games, and the newer Fallout games. I'll be typing here for days because that is a lot of content, lore, and more to type up off the top of my head. And I highly doubt you would care to read every single thing about it. Plus, for some instances, I would need to use pictures (mostly maps) to better point out where I am talking about, like that lovely Elador's Shield artifact in Morrowind, which is in a cave (with Daedric ruins inside) on the top left corner of the Northern Ashland of Vvardenfell in Morrowind (North of the Quarra Vampire Clan's Dwemer Hideout), and requires a levitation spell/potion to get up to it, and some swimming throughout the place as a whole. There's also an Daedroth to fight in the place as well.

 

 

 

 

You're still delivering an item, yes. The "flat out" sounds as if you intend to imply that the circumstance around each delivery quest are identical (as they would be in a radiant quest) and that isn't actually the case, as discussed just now.

 

They are slightly different, true, but for the most part. They follow the same idea. The Naked Barbarians? Pretty much each Barbarian got tricked by a Witch and requests your help to get revenge and possibly something back from them. The item in question is usually different and one of them were paralyzed, requiring a restoration spell or potion to help me. But the quests are all still the same. Same thing with a lot of others... For example, there is an escort quest of a Dunmer who has a Guar with him and wants to go to Vivec. There is another escort quest of a Redguard who wants to get to Gnisis (or was it Khuul? I know it is one of those Western Shore Towns; I get names mix up sometimes) but can't due to her Boots of Blinding Speed. Both are basically the same, just one was blind and the other had a guar...

 

 

 

 

Every time you do a quest you're doing the same type of thing, in that you're doing a quest. Can we infer from that that all quests are identical and of equal merit, given that they're all about questing? Leave the schoolboy debating tricks alone and argue properly, huh? I'm sure you can do it if you want to.

 

You could but that's just being stupid. Quests are always going to be Quests and their can be some similarities between the two just fine. However, Quests should be different enough to offer very different experiences for the player, rather than the same exact experience.

 

Remember those escort quests I just mentioned? Either way, you're still experiencing the "fun" of escorting an NPC, who is probably much slower than you, through the wilderness of Vvardenfell.

 

Now, with Fallout 4 (newest Bethesda game). The Silver Shroud quest will offer very different experience than something like the Cambridge Labs quest. The Silver Shroud is pretty muchly a linear quest with the experience being about you cosplaying as a iconic Hero while the Cambridge Labs quest is about you trying to figure out how to escape the labs or complete the research (Escaping is pretty obvious but completing the research was a much nicer and more fun experience to do as it requires quite a bit of thinking). Both quests don't share anything, really, but they both are very unique from one another, thusly offering different experiences.

 

Morrowind still has amazing quests though, don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying. Their is a lot of similar/copy-pasted quests in Morrowind than in the later games, and gotta discount Radiant quests due to their nature.

 

 

 

 

I have no doubt you can find a lot of similar dialogue screens in Balmora. I don't believe I've ever disputed similarity. You can probably find identical ones here and there. If you want to try and prove they're all exactly the same in all circumstances then knock yourself out.

 

How about a better idea. I've decided to open up the CK and directly quote it from the source files... I decided to look into one of the most common topics you can find that NPCs have. That being: "My Trade". Basically, asking this to an NPC will have them say something about what they do. Thing is, every single Trader will say the same thing. Every single Smith will say the same thing... And so on.

 

Trader - "I am a trader, a general merchant. I buy and sell a little of everything -- weapons ,armor, clothes, books, miscellaneous items of all kinds. Take a look around; let me know what you want. Or if you have things you'd like to sell, let me take a look at them, and I'll give you a price."

Smith - "I am a smith. I make, sell, and repair weapons and armor. I can tell you about the basic armor styles and weapon types. I can also tell you how to take care of worn weapons and worn armor, and sell you the armorer tools you need. I also repair weapons and armor, for a fee."

Slave - "I am a slave, sera. I serve my owner and master as commanded. I clean, prepare food, fetch and carry, do the shopping and marketing, and do other tasks too tiresome or menial for my master."

Publican - "I am a publican. I have food to buy, and beds for lodgers. I also know the neighborhood, and can share the local lore, or, if you prefer, I can give you a little Morrowind lore. I also am likely to have heard the latest rumors, and am happy to share them with you in the spirit of fellowship."

Pawnbroker - "I am a pawnbroker. I buy your goods, giving you cash on the counter, and if, at a later date, you wish to recover your goods, you need only pay me what they are worth -- with a small profit, of course, for my time and trouble. I also sell things, sometimes used and worn, sometimes almost new, and all for a fraction of what they'd cost if purchased elsewhere."

 

And so on... See the problem? Their is no personality, no thoughts, or anything into these replies. They're what you would expect to find in a guide book about the game, not what you expect to hear from an actual person in the universe. Now, thinking about the traders in Skyrim or Fallout 4, take a notice on how personal they are. Each one has something unique to say, something interesting about their shop to catch your attention. For example, Balathor in Whiterun has a salesman type of personality (quick, comedic, etc). "Everything up for sale! If I had a sister, I'll sell her in a heartbeat!" Or Cricket in Fallout 4, who is basically just a maniac over weapons. "Guns! Guns! and More Guns! Better buy my guns now, you sure bet that you're enemies will!"... "Where's the lunatic slobbering for a mini-nuke, ya know?"...

 

Those NPCs in the later games are much more interesting, despite having less topics, because they flat-out actually act like living people and not some sort of weird guide-book to give you information about and provide services/quests... Only so many NPCs in Morrowind actually has unique dialogue. For example, their is only about 32 NPCs in Morrowind who has something personal and unique to say with the "My Trade" topic... 32... Out of thousands of named NPCs in the game. And guess what? Their is even a few of those NPCs who shares the same thing. Bugdul Gro-Kharbush and Durbul Gro-Rush for example will say: "I'm the foreman here at Indarys Manor. I keep the workers in line and make sure the job gets done." and "I'm the foreman here at Rethan Manor. I keep the workers in line and make sure the job gets done." respectfully...

 

And this is just one common topic... I even checked out "Vvardenfell"... It only has 5 different possible responses! ONLY FIVE!

 

If these kind of NPCs are somehow "better" than the ones we have in Skyrim, Fallout 4, etc then I am truly baffled by you.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. In Morrowind the important NPCs have had a some time spent on their personalities, just like they have in F4. The less important ones have had minimal effort spent on them. That's as opposed to none whatsoever in F4.

 

And now I expect you'll accuse me of missing the point because they're supposed to be interchangeable ciphers, and I'll respond by referring you once again to the car analogy. Oh, what fun we have!

 

None? The caravan (Cricket) I mentioned earlier isn't important at all. Hell, there is a chance you would never meet her, yet she has a personality. Their is also the other caravans you may never meet, plus each trader in Diamond City as well. (From the Swatter idiot to the paranoid shop keeper). They all have personality applied to them, each with unique dialogue about their own shops... Then let's not forget some of the named NPCs you can meet around the city, such as the stuck-up Malcolm or the lay-back worker who paints the walls. A lot of these NPCs being non-important at all but as details and personality put into them, at least. Instead of acting like guidebooks about the game.

 

I rather listened to that stupid Swatter guy who keeps telling stupid lies about Baseball than the same generic guide-stuff we get in Morrowind... Cause at least his stupidity is a personality trait, and doesn't come off as a "blank" person.

 

 

"

 

 

I suppose I should point out that my criticism was not of the line itself. I have nothing against those particular six words, even when arranged into that particular order. When I said my heart sank when I heard them, I had rather thought it would be clear from the context that I was talking about hearing Preston say them. Perhaps I was wrong to assume so much.

 

Still, you raise a valid point: the radiant quests from the other factions are just as dull as, (and in many cases cut and paste duplications of) the Minuteman radiants. It takes longer for them to wear out their welcome. Partly because there's a novelty in having the railroad say "go to X and kill Y"rather than the Minutemen, but once you realise they are in fact the same old quests, they are just as tedious.

 

So maybe it is important that other characters say "I'll mark it on your map". Thank you. I wouldn't have thought to mention it otherwise."

 

Eh. Radiant Quests are always going to be tedious. I only do them for cash or experience in their respective games. Though, at least Radiant Quests are a bit different for each Faction/NPC you get them from.

 

"

 

I can't say I'm not much interested in your opinion of the relative merits of two add-ons, one of which I have yet to play. And I very much doubt we'll be having this discussion by the time I play Far Harbor.

 

Perhaps it's best if we restrict ourselves to a discussion of the base game?"

 

Agreed. At least until all of Fallout 4's DLCs are out, which will be sometime. Bethesda has confirmed that Far Harbor isn't the last one, and they will be doing more. Most likely 5 or 6 DLCs in total, like for Fallout 3. Kinda funny how Fallout gets more DLC than Elder Scrolls. (MW, OB, and Skyrim each only got like 3 actual DLCs. MW only having two specifically. I'm discounting the stupid ones for Oblivion though, like horse armor).

 

"

 

 

To be honest, I have no idea what you mean by the word "phrase" in that context. As such, it's rather hard to answer that.

 

But if it helps any, I've never played Daggerfall but I have it on reliable authority that it is a klck-ass game, and I'm sure I'd enjoy it immensely if I could just get past the graphics. Not sure if that answers your point or not, but that's all I really have to say about Daggerfall."

 

The context of "phrase" is the period of time which changes are made to a video game series from the previous title to the next title. Since, changes for the next title in the series usually happens during the development of the game, that would be the phrase which these changes actually happened. Basically, between every two games in a series would be a phrase of time.

 

So, during the phrase between Daggerfall and Morrowind, the most amount of content were removed. (Skills, factions, etc) than in any other phrases.

 

Does that make better sense now?

[DocClox]

 

Using a radiant quest may free up developer time

 

That's the entire point of what I've been saying.

 

Yes. I know.

 

 

Tell ya what, why don't you write down everything you know and I'll be careful not to tell you any of it. Shouldn't take you more than a minute.

 

I have Autistic Memory... You really don't want me to type up everything I know about The Elder Scrolls games, and the newer Fallout games. I'll be typing here for days because that is a lot of content, lore, and more to type up off the top of my head.

 

That's awkward. If I mustn't tell you what you already know, and you can't tell me what you know, then I can't really tell you anything for fear of imparting information you already have.

 

But the quests are all still the same. Same thing with a lot of others... For example, there is an escort quest of a Dunmer who has a Guar with him and wants to go to Vivec. There is another escort quest of a Redguard who wants to get to Gnisis (or was it Khuul? I know it is one of those Western Shore Towns; I get names mix up sometimes) but can't due to her Boots of Blinding Speed. Both are basically the same, just one was blind and the other had a guar...

See, that illustrates my point nicely. Rollie the Guar (or his handler anyway) has very different dialogue from Pemenie (the Redguard with the Boots of Blinding Speed). The tone of the quests is very different, Pemmie's reward is considerably better (once you work out how to debug it) and you get a follow-on topic from everyone in the area telling you what a questionable character she is. They're both very different from the bitchy dunmer noble who wants to go to Ghostgate and shows not one whit of gratitude or appreciation. And that's different again from Intemmerel who only needs to go from Balmora to Pelagiad but who has a nasty habit of using area effect spells on minor threats and catching you with friendly fire. Of course in Intermmerel's case Ranys Athrys has strongly hinted that you might prefer to just murder him and steal his notes once your're away from witnesses.

 

These quests are not all the same in any way at all except in that they involve escorting someone.

 

 

Every time you do a quest you're doing the same type of thing, in that you're doing a quest. Can we infer from that that all quests are identical and of equal merit, given that they're all about questing? Leave the schoolboy debating tricks alone and argue properly, huh? I'm sure you can do it if you want to.

 

You could but that's just being stupid.

 

Well,  I agree. But that's the logic you're using, nevertheless.

 

Remember those escort quests I just mentioned? Either way, you're still experiencing the "fun" of escorting an NPC, who is probably much slower than you, through the wilderness of Vvardenfell.

I'm not saying they don't get tedious. I'm saying that (contrary to your previous assertion) they are not all identical.

 

Now, with Fallout 4 (newest Bethesda game). The Silver Shroud quest will offer very different experience than something like the Cambridge Labs quest.

Comparing the Silver Shroud or Cambidge Polymer to escorting Pemenie is a bit like saying that becoming Archmagister of House Telvanni is a lot more interesting than "Here, Kitty Kitty". I mean it's unquestionably true, but you're not exactly comparing like with like.

 

Morrowind still has amazing quests though, don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying. Their is a lot of similar/copy-pasted quests in Morrowind than in the later games, and gotta discount Radiant quests due to their nature.

Firstly, there's a lot of trivial quests in Morrowind. That's not the same thing as copy-paste.

 

Secondly, I see no reason to discount radiant quests. They may free up developer time, and if Fallout 4 had even as many quests as Skyrim (let alone Morrowind) I might grant the point; given the general paucity of quests in the game however, it's hard to see that this saving in time has benefitted the rest of the content.

 

It's also worth pointing out (since I've worked with these things and you apparently have not) that radiant quests can be the very devil to debug. There's always some case where the story manager doesn't fire off the event, or one of the aliases doesn't fill. It's entirely possible that the time saved by not copying and tweaking quests was taken up by getting the fernickety things to work right.

 

How about a better idea. I've decided to open up the CK and directly quote it from the source files... I decided to look into one of the most common topics you can find that NPCs have. That being: "My Trade". Basically, asking this to an NPC will have them say something about what they do. Thing is, every single Trader will say the same thing. Every single Smith will say the same thing... And so on.

So basically every Bosmer smith from a commoner background who lives in Sadrith Mora and is affilliated with House Telvanni will have identical dialogue with every other Bosmer commoner House Telvanni smith in Sadrith Mora? Unless one is involved in a quest, in which case there'll be differences, of course.

 

That really isn't doing very support to make your case, I'm afraid.

 

And so on... See the problem? Their is no personality, no thoughts, or anything into these replies. They're what you would expect to find in a guide book about the game, not what you expect to hear from an actual person in the universe. Now, thinking about the traders in Skyrim or Fallout 4, take a notice on how personal they are. Each one has something unique to say, something interesting about their shop to catch your attention. For example, Balathor in Whiterun has a salesman type of personality (quick, comedic, etc). "Everything up for sale! If I had a sister, I'll sell her in a heartbeat!" Or Cricket in Fallout 4, who is basically just a maniac over weapons. "Guns! Guns! and More Guns! Better buy my guns now, you sure bet that you're enemies will!"... "Where's the lunatic slobbering for a mini-nuke, ya know?"...

 

How many Khajiit traders introduce themselves by bullshitting you about selling daedric weapons in Fallout?

 

Those NPCs in the later games are much more interesting, despite having less topics, because they flat-out actually act like living people and not some sort of weird guide-book to give you information about and provide services/quests...

How many NPCs in Fallout 4 made four gender-swapped clones of themselves so they could have someone to have sex with?

 

And this is just one common topic... I even checked out "Vvardenfell"... It only has 5 different possible responses! ONLY FIVE!

 

If these kind of NPCs are somehow "better" than the ones we have in Skyrim, Fallout 4, etc then I am truly baffled by you.

  

It uses a different system. There are too many NPCs to give them all a detailed backstory, but that doesn't mean you can't differentiate them a little. If you want to talk about major NPCs with unique dialogue, Morrowind has a ton of those as well.

 

It seems to me that what you have in Fallout 4 is a much smaller game with fewer NPCs which makes the interesting ones loom larger snce there is so much less to compare them against. If that's your idea of "better" ... well each to his own, I suppose. We've all got our own criteria for judging these things.

 

I rather listened to that stupid Swatter guy who keeps telling stupid lies about Baseball than the same generic guide-stuff we get in Morrowind... Cause at least his stupidity is a personality trait, and doesn't come off as a "blank" person.

 

No. They leave the blank NPC role for the namless generics, where as in Morrowind they give those generics names and some variation in dialogue and occasionallty the odd tweak or quirk. That's the point I keep trying to make.

 

Eh. Radiant Quests are always going to be tedious. I only do them for cash or experience in their respective games. Though, at least Radiant Quests are a bit different for each Faction/NPC you get them from.

 

Yeah. In fact they're exactly as tedious as the same quest copy-pasted for every possible permutation. They're all right if the game doesn't rely on them too hard, but F4 way overuses them.

 

The context of "phrase" is the period of time which changes are made to a video game series from the previous title to the next title. Since, changes for the next title in the series usually happens during the development of the game, that would be the phrase which these changes actually happened. Basically, between every two games in a series would be a phrase of time.

 

So, during the phrase between Daggerfall and Morrowind, the most amount of content were removed. (Skills, factions, etc) than in any other phrases.

 

Does that make better sense now?

I think the word you're looking for is "phase" without the "r". And even then, most people would use it to consider each game as a phase rather than applying it to the transition between games. "Transition" seems to better express the point you're trying to make.

 

Look, I think I've said everything I want to say on this one; how about we let it rest? Feel free to reply obviously, but unless you have anything to add that hasn't been said so far, I'm probably not going to respond. 'kay?

[Jusey1]

 

Look, I think I've said everything I want to say on this one; how about we let it rest?

 

I agreed. I am getting rather tired of this argument. And it doesn't really matter at this point. I enjoy Skyrim and Fallout 4 myself. And I appreciate the improvements in those games. I also enjoy Morrowind, Daggerfall, and the other older games as well. There is no need at this point to continue.

[GrimReaper]

Holy quote wars, Batman.

[DocClox]

Hush. We just declared peace. Don't go stirring them up again

[ToJKa]

Well, here's the next one: the game assumes i care about the generic NPC family you spend five minutes with, and BGS' core gameplay mechanic doesn't help at all. "My Baby!

My Baby! Ooh, piece of candy!"

 

The rest of it is what i expected; steady dumbing down of mechanics, steady drop in quality, whoring it out to whatever the current hot fad is...

[Veta]

Like seriously, do you even realize that Bethesda's personal engine is probably the only engine that can do the things that we see in their games? I really can't think of any other engines that can allow anything, and everything, being interact-able. From every item being picked up to the cars and trashcans having their own thing. Their is usually hundreds of items within your small radius that is being active, even when just idling. That is a lot of work for the engine and most other engines would just make most items as "static" because it is easier for the PC/consoles to render and work with static items.

 

You guys declared peace and that cool not trying to break that, I don't like the game because I think it is bad and it encapsulates everything wrong in the industry and you like it for your reasons but about what you said on your previous post.

Don't listen to everything that Todd and Pete say, Bethesda's "personal engine" is just their version of the Gamebryo nothing special about it , not everything in bethesda games is interact-able , cars only blow up and trash cans just act like containers similar to chests .

Go to Novigrad and see how to render of many npc's and items in one place looking visually stunning and without crashes (I could fucking live in novigrad cant wait to see how night city looks like)

 

 

 

1stly, I defend anything that is a good game (song, movie, etc as well).

[Guest]

 

Go to Novigrad and see how to render of many npc's and items in one place looking visually stunning and without crashes (I could fucking live in novigrad cant wait to see how night city looks like)

 

I haven't played TW3 yet, but from what I have heard, generic NPCs are procedurally generated like in Assassin's Creed.  

 

NPCs in Bethesda games have daily schedules and a whole slew of additional data attached to them that use more memory, which is one major reason why cities in TES and FO have a relatively lower number of NPCs compared to AC and TW3.

[Veta]

 

I haven't played TW3 yet, but from what I have heard, generic NPCs are procedurally generated like in Assassin's Creed.  

 

NPCs in Bethesda games have daily schedules and a whole slew of additional data attached to them that use more memory, which is one major reason why cities in TES and FO have a relatively lower number of NPCs compared to AC and TW3.

 

 

I want to start by saying that just because NPC's are procedurally generated doesn't mean they aren't generic " Do you get to the Cloud District very often? "

 

And I don't see how 'go to fruit stand then after 8 go to bed' is really using a lot of memory .

From my point of view Beth with every new game is lowering the number of NPC's.

I wouldn't even call Whiterun a village not a city and don't get me started on the green jewel of the commonwealth, like 20 people ?

 

Yet places like New Vegas and the Imperal city had more than 150, and Oblivion was almost 10 years before F4s release .

[Guest endgameaddiction]

There's so many things wrong about New Vegas. The main game is a big flop.

[Veta]

There's so many things wrong about New Vegas. The main game is a big flop.

 

I must assume you are referring to the launch bugs , because otherwise New Vegas was an outstanding game .

[Guest]

I want to start by saying that just because NPC's are procedurally generated doesn't mean they aren't generic " Do you get to the Cloud District very often?"

 

Yet that is exactly what procedurally generated NPCs are.  They are randomly generated according to an algorithm.  In AC, they cannot be interacted with and there purely for decoration.  And from what I have heard, TW3 has an identical system in place.

 

And I don't know why you brought up Nazeem's signature line.  After all, it is not generic since it is a piece of dialogue unique to that particular NPC.

 

And I don't see how 'go to fruit stand then after 8 go to bed' is really using a lot of memory .

 

AI packages, faction data, dialogue, inventories, quests, merchant chests, et cetera, do use up plenty of memory.  Particularly when they are packed within a cell as large as your typical city in Skyrim.

 

 

From my point of view Beth with every new game is lowering the number of NPC's.

I wouldn't even call Whiterun a village not a city and don't get me started on the green jewel of the commonwealth, like 20 people ?

 

Yet places like New Vegas and the Imperal city had more than 150, and Oblivion was almost 10 years before F4s release .

 

I would like to see where you got those numbers.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

 

There's so many things wrong about New Vegas. The main game is a big flop.

 

I must assume you are referring to the launch bugs , because otherwise New Vegas was an outstanding game .

 

 

Nope, the game was a flop. It may have some decent things to it, but it's a flop.

[Veta]

I would like to see where you got those numbers.

 

Here is the list for Imperial City and here is the one for whiterun

also do note that the latter includes npcs like 'sickly farmer' and 'Visiting Noble'

 

I want to start by saying that just because NPC's are procedurally generated doesn't mean they aren't generic " Do you get to the Cloud District very often?"

Yet that is exactly what procedurally generated NPCs are.  They are randomly generated according to an algorithm.  In AC, they cannot be interacted with and there purely for decoration.  And from what I have heard, TW3 has an identical system in place.

 

And I don't know why you brought up Nazeem's signature line.  After all, it is not generic since it is a piece of dialogue unique to that particular NPC.

 

I made a grammar mistake there but I thought it would still be clear that what I was trying to say and that is 'just because NPC's  AREN'T procedurally generated doesn't mean they aren't generic' and one dimensional as most of Skyrims Npc's are even ones included in important quests .

and I put Nazeems line to drive my point home and by implying that despite the fact he isn't generated he does behave like one just spamming that fucking line every time you pass by .

 

Nope, the game was a flop. It may have some decent things to it, but it's a flop.

 

How was it a flop exactly ?

It was a huge success among the fans and critics alike and it sold decent enough .

So please explain to me how the best non isometric fallout game was a flop ?

 

[Guest]

I made a grammar mistake there but I thought it would still be clear that what I was trying to say and that is 'just because NPC's  AREN'T procedurally generated doesn't mean they aren't generic' and one dimensional as most of Skyrims Npc's are even ones included in important quests .

and I put Nazeems line to drive my point home and by implying that despite the fact he isn't generated he does behave like one just spamming that fucking line every time you pass by .

 

Then you obviously misunderstood the context in which I used the word "generic".  

 

In this context, a "generic" NPC is one which lacks an identity and cannot be interacted with, such as those which are procedurally generated in games like AC and TW3 (as far as I have heard) for the purpose of setting a backdrop.

 

Nazeem would not fit the definition of a generic NPC since he has a name, his own unique AI package, unique lines of dialogue, et cetera.  

 

Understand?

[Guest endgameaddiction]

Of course it was a success to the old and new fans. A lot of new people got into Fallout because of New Vegas.

 

But if you want to know, here's why.

 

 

 

Main Story

 

Introduction = weak. I don't see how some little town doctor has the capability to save someone from a gunshot to the head. And if he can, I'm surprised the protagonist walked away without any brain damage.

 

If miracles do exist, fine. The protagonist got extremely lucky. However, what doesn't fit in my mind is how this Courier decides to take this as a personal vendetta and go all rambo in search for this person in a checkered suit not only for revenge, but reacquire the platinum chip again, which is stupid. It was just a delivery boy at the wrong place, wrong time. This typical story is what you get in some mediocre action film along with the whole vendetta thing. It's not stupid, but it's stupid because it's played out. And it's not that I can't accept it, but the way they have interpreted it doesn't do it for me. As I said, I just can't fit in my mind why some Courier would go through all that trouble to reacquire the platinum chip after nearly being killed. What makes this chip so goddamn important worth risking your life again? The fact you've been shot in the head was nothing but a fucking miracle. So, why is it the Courier wants to recover this platinum chip as if it had any kind of sentimental value?

 

The blank slate background of this protagonist wasn't intriguing, but it seems many people love this because it is better for roleplaying purpose. They feel a protagonist with a back story is not much for RP. I disagree. I like to know some sort of back story of the protagonist. I like to know where the protagonist comes from because it helps me identify the protagonist. Where they come from and what their motives are. From the moment I start the game, I can completely change that like I did with the Lone Wanderer. And I was able to create their personality in Vault 101 like having the dialogue options when talking to Amata at your 10th birthday. And also when Amata was being bullied by the Tunnel Snakes. And also by the time she woke me up. I didn't have to play as a goody two-shoes in Vault 101. I could of been a cynical prick if that's what I wanted to. And that pretty much defied my character from the moment I left Vault 101. Or, I could of been a loving sweet person. But either choice, my character was going to change the moment I walked into the wasteland.

 

In New Vegas, you don't really shape your character, you're just a wasteland courier doing your little job and had an unfortunate incident. There's no room that allows you to shape your character through dialogue. When you wake up in Doc Mitchell's home, you don't have any options to be an arse to him. You only get to be thankful. Same with Victor when you step out in Goodsprings and run into him.

 

The only thing I liked out of that story from start up to encountering Benny was the option to sleep with him, (as a female character of course), fucking his brains out and putting a bullet to his dome. That was a very nice option. Even if it was a black screen moment. Just imagining it is enough for me.

 

The whole ting with Mr. House, well I did a few of his quests. Up to the vault where you enter and you speak to him again and he has his army robots in there. I decided I just couldn't continue it no more, but not only that. The game would crap out to that point so I gave up.

 

You know what got to me with the Lone Wanderer? Was when the protagonist spoke to their father, James and James had told his child about the things they knew what they did. It reminds me of Rick and TWD. How at the start he was a cop and a pretty stand up guy and throughout the story from season 1 through 3 you see how the world changes him. How he's not the same person he used to be, but that person is still in there. Inside of him. But because he has had to face the world for what it has become. The people who are willing to kill him to take what his and his group have. And how he loses it. I picture the Lone Wanderer in a similar situation. Growing up in Vault 101, you know a perfect world out of harms way. Only to be forced out into the real world and see and experience it yourself. Not having any other choice because you can't turn back. So one way or the other this world changes you, but you have that choice to stay who you are, or make decisions based on your roleplay like blowing up Megaton.

 

The reason why Fallout 3 had a better story was because I found the protagonist finding their father had more of a purpose than some stupid platinum chip. I found it more intriguing living in a pretentious perfect world out of harms way only to step out into a world you know nothing of except rumors and stories. If even that.

 

As a courier living in this "wasteland", you'd think you'd know the tricks and trades already. But it seems Obsidian delivered a virgin to the story and now you have to figure out which way the condom goes on.

 

 

The World

 

The world was not a wasteland. There were only a few patches in the game world where it felt dangerous. The rest of it was repetitive flat land or hills with bushes, rocks, cactus and dirt, and more bushes, rocks, cactus and dirt.

 

Not once did I step into a world that felt threatening. Hence, why many people (including myself) refer this game as a cowboy shooter game. And the thing is, it's not that you can't mix cowboys and a post-nuclear world together. It can work. But their implementation of it was so lackluster.

 

The world looked like a modern world of poverty. Nothing more. Whereas, Fallout 3 did lack in it's own way, but DC was hit real bad so they were exposed to more radiation. And that's why New Vegas wasn't a wasteland. They weren't hit as bad and that's where they messed up. Funny how Mr. House was able to stop bombs from dropping on New Vegas, but the outskirts didn't really look like it took much damage. Even Hoover Dam for that matter.

 

The wasteland is supposed to be a depressive world. When people complain about that, a post-apocalyptic world game isn't for them. And New Vegas didn't deliver that. I wasn't reminded not once about what the world has become and what it used to be. People are trying to hang on to what they have left and it isn't much but they are making it the best they can. Even if it's a smile that is keeping them together. Or even if it's those classic tunes on the radio that is lifting their spirits, which was perfectly fine in both Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Despite I wasn't fond of the radio disc jockey in New Vegas, but it fit well for it's theme.

 

They could of made the world look more like a wasteland. Give off that vibe while interpreting the western theme in it, too. They could of added more flavor to the landscape to make it feel more dangerous by making raider settlements look a bit more organized. Making them look like they live in a junkyard, or military base camps of a sort and have traps spread out in the landscape not only for the player, but for others too like wastelanders and NCR.  Anybody really because raiders don't really get along with anyone.

 

If I designed the world, I would of want you in a world where you feel you need to watch your every move. It's supposed to feel that way. It supposed to be a world of only the strong survive. You either adapt to it quickly, or you die.

 

 

Factions

 

Factions were fine, I guess. I'm not a fan of NCR or Legion. The whole Roman costume thing just didn't do it for me, but what ever. The war between them was fine, but what annoyed me was the war being shoved in my face. Forcing me to give a shit about something that I don't want to. And like BSG stories (including Fallout 3) it's another ultimate chosen one to save the world, which has gotten so old.

 

Anyways, What didn't make sense was the way some factions played out. The places they were put in this "wasteland". For instance: I would of put Great Khans in Vault 3 and around the premises where the Fiends are. Why? Well, it makes more sense that Great Khans would have a personal vendetta against NCR for what happened at Bonnie Springs. But not only that. Because Great Khans were hit really bad and lost a lot of people. Including children in the crossfire, Vault 3 would of been a place where they can re-establish. They could of used their leverage on chems on NCR like having connections with some soldiers to sell them chems and this could of been leverage to make NCR weak. Like how weak they are in New Vegas spending funds on gambling while a war is being prepared. And this is why I hoped NCR would fall. But I had no love for Legion anyways. Both factions were just meh...

 

The Fiends, I would of placed them around the outskirts of New Vegas and Mojave like you see Jackals and Viper Gunslingers. I would of had them patched in small settlements around the outskirts like you see Jackals and Viper Gunslingers. I would of had them raiding settlements and NCR and even Legion if paths were crossed. That would of made the world a bit more dangerous.

 

The fact that they were chemed out freaks made sense. But what made no sense was they complaining about wanting more chems to sate their addiction. You can only go for so long without drugs being addicted before your body starts to wear down and you start to feel like crap. So what made no sense to me is Fiends with plasma and laser guns. Especially being accurate as they are when either their chemed the hell out, or they are suffering from their addiction. You can hear it from them when they talk, craving for chems and their bloodshot eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

New Vegas just didn't do it for me. I've tried, but it just never could get to me. I just don't see how many people find this to be one of the best RPGs.

 

 

[Jusey1]

Of course it was a success to the old and new fans. A lot of new people got into Fallout because of New Vegas.

 

But if you want to know, here's why.

 

 

 

Main Story

 

Introduction = weak. I don't see how some little town doctor has the capability to save someone from a gunshot to the head. And if he can, I'm surprised the protagonist walked away without any brain damage.

 

If miracles do exist, fine. The protagonist got extremely lucky. However, what doesn't fit in my mind is how this Courier decides to take this as a personal vendetta and go all rambo in search for this person in a checkered suit not only for revenge, but reacquire the platinum chip again, which is stupid. It was just a delivery boy at the wrong place, wrong time. This typical story is what you get in some mediocre action film along with the whole vendetta thing. It's not stupid, but it's stupid because it's played out. And it's not that I can't accept it, but the way they have interpreted it doesn't do it for me. As I said, I just can't fit in my mind why some Courier would go through all that trouble to reacquire the platinum chip after nearly being killed. What makes this chip so goddamn important worth risking your life again? The fact you've been shot in the head was nothing but a fucking miracle. So, why is it the Courier wants to recover this platinum chip as if it had any kind of sentimental value?

 

The blank slate background of this protagonist wasn't intriguing, but it seems many people love this because it is better for roleplaying purpose. They feel a protagonist with a back story is not much for RP. I disagree. I like to know some sort of back story of the protagonist. I like to know where the protagonist comes from because it helps me identify the protagonist. Where they come from and what their motives are. From the moment I start the game, I can completely change that like I did with the Lone Wanderer. And I was able to create their personality in Vault 101 like having the dialogue options when talking to Amata at your 10th birthday. And also when Amata was being bullied by the Tunnel Snakes. And also by the time she woke me up. I didn't have to play as a goody two-shoes in Vault 101. I could of been a cynical prick if that's what I wanted to. And that pretty much defied my character from the moment I left Vault 101. Or, I could of been a loving sweet person. But either choice, my character was going to change the moment I walked into the wasteland.

 

In New Vegas, you don't really shape your character, you're just a wasteland courier doing your little job and had an unfortunate incident. There's no room that allows you to shape your character through dialogue. When you wake up in Doc Mitchell's home, you don't have any options to be an arse to him. You only get to be thankful. Same with Victor when you step out in Goodsprings and run into him.

 

The only thing I liked out of that story from start up to encountering Benny was the option to sleep with him, (as a female character of course), fucking his brains out and putting a bullet to his dome. That was a very nice option. Even if it was a black screen moment. Just imagining it is enough for me.

 

The whole ting with Mr. House, well I did a few of his quests. Up to the vault where you enter and you speak to him again and he has his army robots in there. I decided I just couldn't continue it no more, but not only that. The game would crap out to that point so I gave up.

 

You know what got to me with the Lone Wanderer? Was when the protagonist spoke to their father, James and James had told his child about the things they knew what they did. It reminds me of Rick and TWD. How at the start he was a cop and a pretty stand up guy and throughout the story from season 1 through 3 you see how the world changes him. How he's not the same person he used to be, but that person is still in there. Inside of him. But because he has had to face the world for what it has become. The people who are willing to kill him to take what his and his group have. And how he loses it. I picture the Lone Wanderer in a similar situation. Growing up in Vault 101, you know a perfect world out of harms way. Only to be forced out into the real world and see and experience it yourself. Not having any other choice because you can't turn back. So one way or the other this world changes you, but you have that choice to stay who you are, or make decisions based on your roleplay like blowing up Megaton.

 

The reason why Fallout 3 had a better story was because I found the protagonist finding their father had more of a purpose than some stupid platinum chip. I found it more intriguing living in a pretentious perfect world out of harms way only to step out into a world you know nothing of except rumors and stories. If even that.

 

As a courier living in this "wasteland", you'd think you'd know the tricks and trades already. But it seems Obsidian delivered a virgin to the story and now you have to figure out which way the condom goes on.

 

 

The World

 

The world was not a wasteland. There were only a few patches in the game world where it felt dangerous. The rest of it was repetitive flat land or hills with bushes, rocks, cactus and dirt, and more bushes, rocks, cactus and dirt.

 

Not once did I step into a world that felt threatening. Hence, why many people (including myself) refer this game as a cowboy shooter game. And the thing is, it's not that you can't mix cowboys and a post-nuclear world together. It can work. But their implementation of it was so lackluster.

 

The world looked like a modern world of poverty. Nothing more. Whereas, Fallout 3 did lack in it's own way, but DC was hit real bad so they were exposed to more radiation. And that's why New Vegas wasn't a wasteland. They weren't hit as bad and that's where they messed up. Funny how Mr. House was able to stop bombs from dropping on New Vegas, but the outskirts didn't really look like it took much damage. Even Hoover Dam for that matter.

 

The wasteland is supposed to be a depressive world. When people complain about that, a post-apocalyptic world game isn't for them. And New Vegas didn't deliver that. I wasn't reminded not once about what the world has become and what it used to be. People are trying to hang on to what they have left and it isn't much but they are making it the best they can. Even if it's a smile that is keeping them together. Or even if it's those classic tunes on the radio that is lifting their spirits, which was perfectly fine in both Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Despite I wasn't fond of the radio disc jockey in New Vegas, but it fit well for it's theme.

 

They could of made the world look more like a wasteland. Give off that vibe while interpreting the western theme in it, too. They could of added more flavor to the landscape to make it feel more dangerous by making raider settlements look a bit more organized. Making them look like they live in a junkyard, or military base camps of a sort and have traps spread out in the landscape not only for the player, but for others too like wastelanders and NCR.  Anybody really because raiders don't really get along with anyone.

 

If I designed the world, I would of want you in a world where you feel you need to watch your every move. It's supposed to feel that way. It supposed to be a world of only the strong survive. You either adapt to it quickly, or you die.

 

 

Factions

 

Factions were fine, I guess. I'm not a fan of NCR or Legion. The whole Roman costume thing just didn't do it for me, but what ever. The war between them was fine, but what annoyed me was the war being shoved in my face. Forcing me to give a shit about something that I don't want to. And like BSG stories (including Fallout 3) it's another ultimate chosen one to save the world, which has gotten so old.

 

Anyways, What didn't make sense was the way some factions played out. The places they were put in this "wasteland". For instance: I would of put Great Khans in Vault 3 and around the premises where the Fiends are. Why? Well, it makes more sense that Great Khans would have a personal vendetta against NCR for what happened at Bonnie Springs. But not only that. Because Great Khans were hit really bad and lost a lot of people. Including children in the crossfire, Vault 3 would of been a place where they can re-establish. They could of used their leverage on chems on NCR like having connections with some soldiers to sell them chems and this could of been leverage to make NCR weak. Like how weak they are in New Vegas spending funds on gambling while a war is being prepared. And this is why I hoped NCR would fall. But I had no love for Legion anyways. Both factions were just meh...

 

The Fiends, I would of placed them around the outskirts of New Vegas and Mojave like you see Jackals and Viper Gunslingers. I would of had them patched in small settlements around the outskirts like you see Jackals and Viper Gunslingers. I would of had them raiding settlements and NCR and even Legion if paths were crossed. That would of made the world a bit more dangerous.

 

The fact that they were chemed out freaks made sense. But what made no sense was they complaining about wanting more chems to sate their addiction. You can only go for so long without drugs being addicted before your body starts to wear down and you start to feel like crap. So what made no sense to me is Fiends with plasma and laser guns. Especially being accurate as they are when either their chemed the hell out, or they are suffering from their addiction. You can hear it from them when they talk, craving for chems and their bloodshot eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

New Vegas just didn't do it for me. I've tried, but it just never could get to me. I just don't see how many people find this to be one of the best RPGs.

 

 

 

I would like to add a few things to this as well:

 

1. You got shot... Twice in the head, not once. The chances of surviving a single shot is possible but very very low. Two, though? Their is literally no chance at all to survive two as the first one would've broken your skull enough so that the second one would just go directly through your skull and deep into your brain.

 

2. The chip itself is also a "One chip to rule everything" type of cliche, which isn't even done right... And made the factions even more pointless than they are since you could just use the chip to rule everyone as you wish with the army of robots. Even if you're best friends with every single faction, you could just kill them all or kick them all out of the Mojave with the chip...

 

3. The faction themselves are pretty one-faced, for the most part. NCR is basically like any other corrupted Government in media. The Legion is very similar to raiders and slavers, just you can find a way to join them at least... The Boomers is your common military-folks that you see in media a lot. Mr. House was an interesting individual but I wouldn't count him as a faction. The Khans just seems like a bunch of normal druggies. Not necessary the addicted kind of druggies, like the Fiends, but still just seems like a bunch of normal druggies you can find in most games these days. And I can keep going...

 

The only faction I was interested in was the Enclave Remnants and this is because that their backstory was actually used to define them, and their characters, in the present time of the game. Which this caused them to be a lot more interesting to meet, help out, and gain as allies.

 

Obsidian could've do a lot better, and for all we know... They could. However, they had a tight deadline and only so much to work on. BUT, just because they could've done better doesn't help New Vegas at all for what it is now.

[Darkening Demise]

BGS just keeps casualizing their products as time goes on to appeal towards Nintendo, Facebook, and mobile gamers. They see the real money is in Minecraft, Candy Crush Saga, and Super Mario Bros. and not in in depth, non-linear, creative, imaginative role playing games.