Has Beth lost its edge on RPG gaming?

[DocClox]

Hahah yeah well that is why I wouldn't compare Blackreach to the Oblivion Gates as it's a whole region, not a dungeon.

So were the gates, strictly speaking. You got a worldspace you had to cross before you got to the towers. Smaller than Blackreach, certainly, but there were more of them.

 

That said, there were only five oblivion worlds, plus a handful of quest-linked one-offs. They were copy-pasted somewhat, I won't dispute that.

 

The other dungeons though ... I've never once entered an Oblivion dungeon and thought "oh yeah, I recognise this layout, I need to turn right and take the stairs". Given that I've spent an ungodly number of hours playing the game, I don't think the duplication can be as bad as all that.

 

On the other hand, Fallout 4's dungeons (unique though they may be) got to feel stale very fast. I mean take Corvega, for instance: Snipe the turret, kill three guards, and then in through the main doors. Shoot the monkey, kill the raider in the bogs and disarm the trap. There are three raiders in the corridors, one to the left and two to the right. Then it's down the stairs, turn left and take the stairs up. (The lift works too, but I'm not sure how quiet it is). When you get to the top, the boss is leaning on the balcony by the office. Snipe him, then back down the stairs and out the way you came. Report to the settlement to let them know the job is done, and then back to Preston so he can mark the next location on your map. I could do it in my sleep. (And very probably have, thinking about it...)

 

I don't think I ever got that blasé about any dungeon in Oblivion. OK, a couple of the Obvlion world towers maybe, but I can't think of anywhere in Cyrodiil I ever got that tired of, and that includes the tutorial dungeon and the ruin across from the sewer exit which I'd use for practice runs.

 

There was never a point were I thought I'd rather be somewhere else in the game than in the dwemer dungeon I was currently running around while I usually just thought "Good god, make them disappear" whenever I saw an Oblivion Gate. I guess being shot at with fireballs whenever I was near one didn't help making it easy to just ignore them for good.

This might lie in the eye of the beholder but in my opinion there were way too many of them.

Probably. I mean I quite like the Oblivion gates, but even I tended to ignore them unless I needed a Sigil Stone for some reason.

 

It's really just a path they follow and it's up to you if you keep on following them or not and depends on your very own taste buuuut I guess we completely lost the topic.

I agree, and I think I'm probably going to stop following Bethesda. I find I'm oddly OK with that. They gave me some great games over the years and if I'm no longer part of the target audience, that's fair enough. I hope the change of direction works out for them.

 

Minecraft is Lego for adults, not BGS games. And since all my Lego people still have yellow heads, and I'm not actually familiar with Johnny Adventure or Bionical....now I feel old. MAUDE! WHERE ARE MY BIFOCALS?

Oh, don't! I'm already feeling old after finding out I have 30 years on Valgo.

 

And when you find those bifocals, see if you can see where I left my Zimmer frame, will you?

 

 

Well that is exactly my point. Exploring in Skyrim, to me, was massively more fun than in Oblivion. I feel like they have put much more thought and time in making exploring actually worth your while with no more Copy&Paste Dungeons and so many places that just immersive and good because they actually tried to this time.

I don't have a problem with exploring Skyrim, personally. My main issues with the game are the way the leveling system tends to make your character builds converge on your play style and the way they stripped magic to the bone so they could have lots and lots of shouts.

 

For that matter, Fallout 4 is fun to explore, even if some of the locations lose their bloom after the twentieth visit or so. How did we get onto exploring anyway?

 

That is sadly not possible for males because Modders don't support it as much.

I know what you mean. I tried to find a good shirtless male outfit for a poster I was making a while back. Amazing how little there is. I eventually found something on Slof's website. Watch out for the "modular armor" one, unless you want to see Farkas wandering round dressed like a male stripper.

 

Abolishing the class system for example is something I really support because it takes away from my freedom to skill my character the way I want to.

You could always make custom classes. I like classes because the give me an incentive to play in a certain way or with certain skills. In Skyrim I always start with good intentions but end up with a sneaky wizard.

 

About the Lego thing: Well what shall I say? I am a kid of the ninties xD

 

I'm old, I tell you! Old!

 

Sorry to both of you if I missed something. I have no idea how to split posts so I have to scroll up and down all the time which is confusing.

There's a switch in the top left of the toolbar that toggles between WYSIWYG and bbcode. Put it into bbcode and you can copy and paste the quote header and split the post that way.

[DocClox]

I don't think the core of Skyrim (vanilla) is a good game. What I find interesting the world itself and how everything fits into the TES lore. Funnily enough, I actually think Oblivion is the best game on the TES side, even with the flaws, to me, it has the best ratio of depth-to-sacrifice.

Oblivion did a lot right to my way of thinking. Most people can't get past the cabbage patch kid faces and the fact that Morrowind's leveling system doesn't work nearly as well when the entire world levels along with you. There is also the ridiculous false urgency of the main plot ("HURRY UP!! You only have seventeen seconds before Merunes Dagon Destroys All Everything Forever! Or, y'know, if you're busy I expect he won't mind waiting...") and I dearly wish they'd been a little more adventurous with the setting.

 

Apart from that, it's pretty damn good all round. I spent a lot of happy hours in Cyrodiil.

 

Skyrim, on the other hand, I think is a bad extreme. Without mods, I just feel like I'm a god that can do everything more than I did in Oblivion, and much more than in Morrowind.

Everything and more, huh?

 

Tell you what, nip down the College, find the spellmaker and make yourself a Levitation spell; 20 strength and 5 seconds duration.

 

Wait, they don't have a spellmaker? Oh well, just enchant yourself a constant effect levitation ring in that case.

 

What do you mean "there's no levitation effect?" Hmm... how about making a sword with a jump spell on it?

 

You can only put offensive effects on weapons, you say? All right, how about enchanting a pair of pants?

 

There are no pants in Skyrim? Seriously? What kind of a province doesn't have pants?  Oh well, 20 points of Fortify Acrobatics on a ring then. You can do that right?

 

Oh come on! How can there be no Acrobatics?  I'm going back to Morrowind...

 

I don't think of Bethesda as one entity, and I'm sure there are parts of the team that are trying to break down how to please everyone down into bullet points, but I still imagine that there are newer developers who joined Bethesda with the intention to simply make good games. The same way there are probably many parts of the team that have retired since working on those older games.

Personally, I have the greatest respect for the Bethesda devs. Some of them have been kind enough to answer my questions on the CK forum from time to time and they're pretty cool guys. Also, working in software myself, I know that no one ever sits down and tries to make a bad job of a software project.

 

The trouble is, the developers don't write the high level specs, allocate budgets or set deadlines.

 

Fallout 4 has all the hallmarks of a project where the marketing team wrote the spec, the developers tried their best to make something fun around that, and then deadlines forced them to release with several major areas either disabled or minimally developed.

 

Bethesda is different now, and maybe we can hope that they'll choose to switch back to pleasing the minority of buyers that want to spend hundreds of hours into the game, create mods, find themselves immersed in the story; the people that like more traditional RPGs and would like to see them with today's technology. Or not. The majority most likely does just wanted to run through the game on one character, have a great time by their own preferences, and be done with the game.

They're going to chase the money. I just need to stop getting excited about their games

[Eth4rlad]

 

I just need to stop getting excited about their games

 

 

You're still able to get excited for games? I'm 5 years younger than you and already so jaded and dead inside that nothing can dissapoint me anymore (which is kinda neat, in a way).

[DocClox]

 

 

I just need to stop getting excited about their games

 

 

You're still able to get excited for games? I'm 5 years younger than you and already so jaded and dead inside that nothing can dissapoint me anymore (which is kinda neat, in a way).

 

 

 

What can I say? I get carried away by my own enthusiasm sometimes

 

[G0ldSil3nce]

Phew this thread seems to have gotten a lot of traction recently

[Jusey1]

 

Sure because "Go help this settlement with animals" "Go help this settlement with raiders" and "Go build a new settlement here" aren't copy/pasted at all.  Please don't try and bullshit us buddy.

 

And you're being ignorant here. Those quests are Radiant Quests, not your normal Misc or Side Quests. They are made to be repeated infinity. That's their point. Daggerfall had them for each guild/faction, and now Skyrim and Fallout 4 has them as well. They are made to be extra content to do for money or experience, not as actual quests.

 

Though, yes. There are some copy-pasted quests in Fallout 4 and Skyrim. Mostly just small Misc Objections where you gotta get some items for someone, but that's usually where it ends. For the most part, the actual Side Quests in the newer games are pretty dang unique and don't do the same exact thing.

 

Morrowind, which doesn't have Radiant Quests at all, used most of it's Side and Misc quests like "Radiant Quests". As in, most of those quests are basically the same type of thing. Kill a target, Escort a NPC, Get/Steal an Item, etc. Most of the unique quests in Morrowind are part of the major questlines in the game. Hell, most of the memorably side quests in Morrowind tends to be from Bloodmoon or Tribunal expansions, not in the main game. And again, this is because Bethesda focuses on using most of it's side/misc quests as basically the same thing. In the newer games, Bethesda brought back the Radiant Quest system so they don't do that and focus on more uniquely built side quests, which they started building unique side quests in Oblivion.

 

Lesson: There's four main categories for quests -

Main Quests (Be it for the Main Game, DLC, or Guild).

Side Quests (Quests that aren't part of the main story).

Misc Quests (Small simple objections).

Radiant Quests (Repeat-able quests made for the purpose of Experience/Money income).

 

Since, you seem to not know and are unable to tell the difference.

 

 

 

And no, the 30 second audio file (tops) that I get about an NPC's backstory is not a substitute for a description of their home province (Morrowind), their job/trade/class (Morrowind), and a description of their knowledge of the local area, rumors, gossip, news, general knowledge regarding local fauna, possible quests in the area, the major guilds and factions, which included no less than three main local factions, two churches, as well as fighters, mages, thieves and possibly even assassin guilds, and the army - in which game? Let me think now.....MORROWIND!   Don't start telling me about how I shouldn't be ignorant.

 

I rather have 30 seconds of unique dialogue about an NPC's backstory rather than a word-to-word copied backstory that every single non-important NPC uses. Also, all of those other things too about the city and such? Every single non-important NPC will say the exact same thing about each topic for each area... Seriously, there are A LOT MORE lines of dialogue in Skyrim and Fallout 4 than their is in Morrowind (discounting the player's lines of dialogue in Fallout 4); and that is because Bethesda actually gave life to the towns and cities, instead of making them a 24/7 zombie-filled towns with NPCs who all shared the exact same lines pretty muchly. I rather take Skyrim's repeating dialogue over Morrowind's copy-pasted system, simply because at least each NPC in Skyrim has unique things to say.

 

Note: Discounting Generic NPCs (Nameless ones like Bandits, Settlers, etc). They are made to share a lot between one another due to the game spawning them in, not because of them being placed named NPCs with set jobs and schedules.

 

Though, you do have one point. Not having the rumors, gossip, or other general topics is really annoying (which is why the Guards does a lot of those random lines in Skyrim and Fallout 4).

 

Also, I still love Morrowind but I'm not blind to it's flaws. I do want to say this though, Morrowind does have more unique and interesting towns (discounting the NPCs in them). When I first played the game, I greatly enjoy exploring Vivec, Balmora, and the many other towns in the game. It's just, over time, I got tired of it's NPCs. I talked to every single one of them because I wanna hear what each one has to say, which I quickly found out that, for the most part, these NPCs will say the exact same thing. Word-to-Word, and kinda got bored of them quickly... Ruins the immersion.

[Jusey1]

 

The other dungeons though ... I've never once entered an Oblivion dungeon and thought "oh yeah, I recognise this layout, I need to turn right and take the stairs". Given that I've spent an ungodly number of hours playing the game, I don't think the duplication can be as bad as all that.

 

I honestly can't believe you simply because you're the first person, and only one thus far, that says this about Oblivion's dungeons. It is highly accepted that Bethesda used a dungeon generator for Morrowind and Oblivion. (A generator which uses pre-made sections and puts them together to make dungeons). Which causes the great copy-paste nature of those dungeons in games.

 

Though, I'll admit. I definably was overreacting earlier about this with the whole "12 of the exactly same loadout" ordeal. It's wasn't really that high when it comes to exactly the same. It's more of using the exact same sections. Most dungeons are only around 50% exactly the same while others are high up in the % with a few in the lesser ends. At least for Oblivion. In Morrowind though, it is far worst. Just harder to notice due to the lack of a fast travel system and a proper map system, so most dungeons in Morrowind weren't noticed or explored by the majority of players...

 

And trust me, there are definably A LOT OF DUNGEONS in Morrowind which are exactly the same loadout... I did, after-all, worked on a mod for Morrowind with the sole purpose of adding traps and more things into every single Ancestral Tomb. So, I did got to see them all in a row, and it was VERY VERY depressing.

[DocClox]

And you're being ignorant here. Those quests are Radiant Quests, not your normal Misc or Side Quests. They are made to be repeated infinity. That's their point. Daggerfall had them for each guild/faction, and now Skyrim and Fallout 4 has them as well. They are made to be extra content to do for money or experience, not as actual quests.

 

That's rather missing the point, though. All a radiant quest is (and I have some hands-on experience here) is a way of taking what would be a copy-paste quest and parameterising it. The system allows the game to generate a all the possible permutations of a quest and select one on the fly. From the point of view of the player there is no noticable difference between writing a radiant and writing copy-paste quests for all the possible combinations of faction/settlement/quest giver/dungeon and possibly victim.

 

On paper it's a good way of adding a lot of varied procedural content. In practice it's no different at all from a truckload of copy-paste jobs.

 

So when you look at it like that, Fallout 4 has massively more copy-paste quests than Skyrim, F3 or Morrowind.

 

I rather have 30 seconds of unique dialogue about an NPC's backstory rather than a word-to-word copied backstory that every single non-important NPC uses. Also, all of those other things too about the city and such? Every single non-important NPC will say the exact same thing about each topic for each area...

That's not entirely true. Some topics vary by job or by faction. Some by race. It's not like every single NPC in a city has the exact same dialogue - it comes across as quite varied. It's a bit like the radiant quests you seem so fond of. Variety through permutation.

 

I'll grant you that you get a bit fed up of reading about how it's only OK to kill someone if they attack you first, but I can't think of a single Morrowind line that makes me cringe nearly as much as "I'll mark it on your map".

 

[edit] Actually, I can think of one - the line everyone has about Solstheim in the unpatched game "A dreadful place to be sure. You can get a ferry from Khuul if you've any reason to go there".

 

Seriously, there are A LOT MORE lines of dialogue in Skyrim and Fallout 4 than their is in Morrowind

I find that difficult to believe. I remember reading a post by a dev quite a while ago where they basically admitted that they'd had to drastically reduce the amount of dialogue in Oblivion compared to Morrowind due to the overheads of voice acting. F4 has rather fewer factions, towns and non-generic NPCs than oblivion and has the added pressure of needing two player VA lines for every one spoken by an NPC. So I'm really having difficulty believing that one.

 

and that is because Bethesda actually gave life to the towns and cities, instead of making them a 24/7 zombie-filled towns with NPCs who all shared the exact same lines pretty muchly. I rather take Skyrim's repeating dialogue over Morrowind's copy-pasted system, simply because at least each NPC in Skyrim has unique things to say.

 

 

Yes and no. Bethesda's schedule and package subsystem (which has been around since Oblivion incidentally) would have been nice in Morrowind. It wouldn't have added any dialogue however, so I'm not sure how is this relevant to your point.

 

I honestly can't believe you simply because you're the first person, and only one thus far, that says this about Oblivion's dungeons. It is highly accepted that Bethesda used a dungeon generator for Morrowind and Oblivion. (A generator which uses pre-made sections and puts them together to make dungeons). Which causes the great copy-paste nature of those dungeons in games.

Honestly, I think you're a little confused on this point. Bethesda used procedural generation for Daggerfall and Arena (I think it was both of them) but abandoned it for Morrowind.

 

Though, I'll admit. I definably was overreacting earlier about this with the whole "12 of the exactly same loadout" ordeal. It's wasn't really that high when it comes to exactly the same. It's more of using the exact same sections.

Well, yeah. They use tilesets so you get the same features. It's a bit like complaining about the number of passages with blade traps in Skyrim, or all the rooms where you have a big spiral ramp going down. It's a tile, or probably a prefab.

 

In Morrowind though, it is far worst. Just harder to notice due to the lack of a fast travel system and a proper map system, so most dungeons in Morrowind weren't noticed or explored by the majority of players...

 

For Morrowind, I'm inclined to believe you. Most ancestral tombs are kept fairly small (which is probably more believable than the sprawling D&D cliche we're used to) and there are only so many permutations. I also don't think that the dungeons (with a few exceptions) were supposed to be the interesting places in Morrowind. Morrowind is all about the wilderness and the towns and the politics and the history. It's sometimes fun to poke your head into a dungeon, but it's not the point of the game. In any case, I've never looked into enough tombs for the copy-paste aspect to really impinge, and as long as I don't notice it, it's probably a worthwhile optimization.

 

[edit]

 

Spelinng errours...

[Valgo]

So were the gates, strictly speaking. You got a worldspace you had to cross before you got to the towers. Smaller than Blackreach, certainly, but there were more of them.

 

 

That said, there were only five oblivion worlds, plus a handful of quest-linked one-offs. They were copy-pasted somewhat, I won't dispute that.

 

The other dungeons though ... I've never once entered an Oblivion dungeon and thought "oh yeah, I recognise this layout, I need to turn right and take the stairs". Given that I've spent an ungodly number of hours playing the game, I don't think the duplication can be as bad as all that.

 

On the other hand, Fallout 4's dungeons (unique though they may be) got to feel stale very fast. I mean take Corvega, for instance: Snipe the turret, kill three guards, and then in through the main doors. Shoot the monkey, kill the raider in the bogs and disarm the trap. There are three raiders in the corridors, one to the left and two to the right. Then it's down the stairs, turn left and take the stairs up. (The lift works too, but I'm not sure how quiet it is). When you get to the top, the boss is leaning on the balcony by the office. Snipe him, then back down the stairs and out the way you came. Report to the settlement to let them know the job is done, and then back to Preston so he can mark the next location on your map. I could do it in my sleep. (And very probably have, thinking about it...)

 

I don't think I ever got that blasé about any dungeon in Oblivion. OK, a couple of the Obvlion world towers maybe, but I can't think of anywhere in Cyrodiil I ever got that tired of, and that includes the tutorial dungeon and the ruin across from the sewer exit which I'd use for practice runs.

I guess I'll have to take your word on that because it's been many years since I played Oblivion. That was back when I didn't have any internet nor a pc nor was I able to understand english (It was an english version of the game) nearly as much as I understand it now

So basically it is very possible that my negative opinion came from me not being able to enjoy the game properly but I do remember thinking "Why am I even clearing this dungeon I didn't even enjoy clearing the last one which looked the same."

Wearing too much and being unable to walk but not knowing why or contradicting vampirism and not being able to tell what the dream-textbox just said didn't help further my overall enjoyment of the Game.

Maybe I wouldn't have minded the copy and paste dungeons as much if everything else would have gone smoother.

 

There was never a point were I thought I'd rather be somewhere else in the game than in the dwemer dungeon I was currently running around while I usually just thought "Good god, make them disappear" whenever I saw an Oblivion Gate. I guess being shot at with fireballs whenever I was near one didn't help making it easy to just ignore them for good.

This might lie in the eye of the beholder but in my opinion there were way too many of them.

Probably. I mean I quite like the Oblivion gates, but even I tended to ignore them unless I needed a Sigil Stone for some reason.

 

Well I was really immersed in my role in the game and closing all the gates was kinda what i tried to do in the first quarter of my playthrough.

I gave up on that afterwards.

 

It's really just a path they follow and it's up to you if you keep on following them or not and depends on your very own taste buuuut I guess we completely lost the topic.

I agree, and I think I'm probably going to stop following Bethesda. I find I'm oddly OK with that. They gave me some great games over the years and if I'm no longer part of the target audience, that's fair enough. I hope the change of direction works out for them.

 

That is fair enough I suppose.

 

Minecraft is Lego for adults, not BGS games. And since all my Lego people still have yellow heads, and I'm not actually familiar with Johnny Adventure or Bionical....now I feel old. MAUDE! WHERE ARE MY BIFOCALS?

Oh, don't! I'm already feeling old after finding out I have 30 years on Valgo.

 

And when you find those bifocals, see if you can see where I left my Zimmer frame, will you?

 

 Yeah I have no idea what you guys are talking about x)

 

Well that is exactly my point. Exploring in Skyrim, to me, was massively more fun than in Oblivion. I feel like they have put much more thought and time in making exploring actually worth your while with no more Copy&Paste Dungeons and so many places that just immersive and good because they actually tried to this time.

I don't have a problem with exploring Skyrim, personally. My main issues with the game are the way the leveling system tends to make your character builds converge on your play style and the way they stripped magic to the bone so they could have lots and lots of shouts.

 

For that matter, Fallout 4 is fun to explore, even if some of the locations lose their bloom after the twentieth visit or so. How did we get onto exploring anyway?

 

I brought it up as something that worked better in more recent games compared to their respective predecessors to prove my point about how some things get better, some don't and some just change but I also said that exploring in general is more fun in TES Games than FO Games.

 

 

That is sadly not possible for males because Modders don't support it as much.

I know what you mean. I tried to find a good shirtless male outfit for a poster I was making a while back. Amazing how little there is. I eventually found something on Slof's website. Watch out for the "modular armor" one, unless you want to see Farkas wandering round dressed like a male stripper.

 

Kinky! But since my next male character is supposed to wear actual heavy armor for once I don't have that problem any time soon anyway.

 

 

Abolishing the class system for example is something I really support because it takes away from my freedom to skill my character the way I want to.

You could always make custom classes. I like classes because the give me an incentive to play in a certain way or with certain skills. In Skyrim I always start with good intentions but end up with a sneaky wizard.

 

Fair enough. I usually decided what 'class' I wanted to play first and just stuck to it throughout the game.

Coincidentally my first character in skyrim was supposed to be sneaky as fuck so that helped.

 

 

Sorry to both of you if I missed something. I have no idea how to split posts so I have to scroll up and down all the time which is confusing.

There's a switch in the top left of the toolbar that toggles between WYSIWYG and bbcode. Put it into bbcode and you can copy and paste the quote header and split the post that way.

 

Ooooh there it is. I knew there had to be an option around there somewhere but I guess I didn't look as closely as I should have. x)

Thanks!

[Jusey1]

 

That's rather missing the point, though. All a radiant quest is (and I have some hands-on experience here) is a way of taking what would be a copy-paste quest and parameterising it. The system allows the game to generate a all the possible permutations of a quest and select one on the fly. From the point of view of the player there is no noticable difference between writing a radiant and writing copy-paste quests for all the possible combinations of faction/settlement/quest giver/dungeon and possibly victim.

 

On paper it's a good way of adding a lot of varied procedural content. In practice it's no different at all from a truckload of copy-paste jobs.

 

So when you look at it like that, Fallout 4 has massively more copy-paste quests than Skyrim, F3 or Morrowind.

 

I highly doubt you have hands-on experience.

 

Anyways, a Radiant Quest is suppose to be a system of infinity repeat-able quests, which would appear to be copy-pasted quests to the normal individually. However, you only need to create each Radiant Quest once, instead of multiple times. That's the difference between Radiant Quests and the normal Copy-Pasted Quests... The devs don't spend anymore time on Radiant Quests while they do have to waste time copy-pasting quests.

 

Basically, Radiant Quests are suppose to help the devs to continue working on other quests and content, instead of wasting time copy-pasting the same one to have more "quests" in the game for the player.

 

As for from a player-point of the view... That doesn't matter and if the player doesn't notice, that's fine. They can choose to be ignorance or research on game designing so that they may learn. And when you're ignorant to something, then you have no right to criticize it because you don't know what you're talking about. Which is a major problem with a lot of people. Barely anyone bothers to do some research on their games but instead try to be a critic based on what they've played, which is just a laugh-able thing to try out.

 

So, both on paper and in the actual game files, Skyrim and Fallout 4 don't have as much as copy-pasted quests as Morrowind. Simply because Radiant Quests are only listed as One individual thing. Not something that was wasted on copying and making more of. So that argument is competely useless.

 

Remember, gotta look at this stuff like a critic or game developer. Not as a player. This is mostly because a common player's viewpoint is bias and has no idea what is really going on beneath the surface of the game.

 

That's not entirely true. Some topics vary by job or by faction. Some by race. It's not like every single NPC in a city has the exact same dialogue - it comes across as quite varied. It's a bit like the radiant quests you seem so fond of. Variety through permutation.

I'll grant you that you get a bit fed up of reading about how it's only OK to kill someone if they attack you first, but I can't think of a single Morrowind line that makes me cringe nearly as much as "I'll mark it on your map".

 

True, to a point. Some topics do vary a little by job or faction, and ofcourse some by race but not much. Plus, on most topics, it is very very similar with maybe a few words difference. However, point is still there that the dialogue is completely and highly copy-pasted, and based on the bare minimums it can be. No normal NPC has actual personality or interests to them... They are all just disposable town guides. Which is why the later games are much better at this... The NPCs actually got a lot more attention to them. Yes, they might say less (which is honestly a bit more realistic than Morrowind's paragraphs of words) but at least they have more personality, and every named NPC in each town has something interesting to say about themselves and their own thoughts. Especially in Skyrim.

 

As for the "I'll mark it on your map" ordeal... It's the easier line to use to deal with the marker you get on your map for quests, and I'm honestly fine with it. Nothing really too wrong with that, plus you have a map in every game (your character references their maps a lot) so I don't see why not have someone mark the location their talking about on your map. I say, it would be a lot easier. If I had a local map while I'm on road and I ask for help, I would appreciate it more if they just mark it on my map rather than try to give me directions, as it is easier to follow a map than a directions. At least for myself.

 

I find that difficult to believe. I remember reading a post by a dev quite a while ago where they basically admitted that they'd had to drastically reduce the amount of dialogue in Oblivion compared to Morrowind due to the overheads of voice acting. F4 has rather fewer factions, towns and non-generic NPCs than oblivion and has the added pressure of needing two player VA lines for every one spoken by an NPC. So I'm really having difficulty believing that one.

 

I was talking about Skyrim and Fallout 4 more-so than Oblivion. Mostly because Oblivion is one of my least favorite Bethesda games and I kinda don't play it anymore. So, I never really put much thought into Oblivion anymore unless I have to.

 

For the record though, F4 has more factions than Oblivion, and a lot more going on for each faction than you think. I'm still catching new lines and possibilities for each faction, and I've had over 25 Fallout 4 characters. However, yes, Oblivion has more named NPCs and towns in it but that is mostly because of the worlds being vastly different. Oblivion takes place in a world that is actually living with many cities, towns, and farms all across the land while Fallout 4 takes place in a wasteland world that is full of a lot more deadlier things, from radiant to enemies, so thusly most non-crazy people kinda had to find an actual fortified city to live in rather than living outside in the dangers. Thusly, there's only one city and a very few lucky towns in Fallout 4 (plus a bunch of farms that are surprisingly surviving).

 

So, I can understand why FO4 has less cities and named NPCs than the TES games. It suits the game's world better. Which this allows for vastly more interesting NPCs since a lot of the NPCs get more attention, a lot more lines, and more personality put into them. Discounting the generated ones, obviously. Hell, even counting the generated ones... They have a lot of lines dedicated to themselves. The raiders, for example, has around 100 known combat lines and that doesn't even count all of the lines of dialogue they have when they're aren't in combat (from telling stories about you killing other clans to telling their own stories).

 

So yes, I strongly believe that FO4 and Skyrim can possibly have a lot more lines than Morrowind. Especially since Morrowind NPCs likes to use the same or similar lines of dialogue for everything they say and even the same lines for while in combat. (For example: Every Dunmer will most likely say "You N'wah!" at least once when in combat, even if they die in a single hit). And I'm not even sure all of the factions in Morrowind can make up for that massive lost in dialogue lines that it could've had. Despite how good those factions are.

 

 

Yes and no. Bethesda's schedule and package subsystem (which has been around since Oblivion incidentally) would have been nice in Morrowind. It wouldn't have added any dialogue however, so I'm not sure how is this relevant to your point.

 

Actually, it could.

 

NPCs could actually engage in talking with one another about news during their schedules, which would be more lines of dialogued added to the game. Now, if we're just talking about the basic schedule system of them going to bed, eating, doing jobs, etc. Then yes, their wouldn't be any dialogue added to the game. But, as seen in Oblivion and onward, NPCs will talk with one another as part of their dialogue.

 

As for my point... My point with that was about how the towns in the newer games are actually more alive and immersive than Morrowind's dead towns... It's really creepy to see NPCs hang out in the same exact spots/areas 24/7 (without player intervention), be real man.

 

 

Honestly, I think you're a little confused on this point. Bethesda used procedural generation for Daggerfall and Arena (I think it was both of them) but abandoned it for Morrowind.

 

Yes, they've abandoned the procedural generation system but they still kept a dungeon generator for Morrowind and Oblivion. The procedural generator was used in-game to make the same dungeons different for every playthrough, which they got rid of that. The dungeon generator used for Morrowind and Oblivion took whole sections and put them together randomly to make a dungeon, then the devs just put those dungeons made into the world and did final touches (adding enemies, quest objectives, etc).

 

Well, yeah. They use tilesets so you get the same features. It's a bit like complaining about the number of passages with blade traps in Skyrim, or all the rooms where you have a big spiral ramp going down. It's a tile, or probably a prefab.

 

Ye'h. Ye'h... Static Objects that are found under Static and can be dragged to the World Window to be added to the world. I know about that and I know why places in any game can look the same due to this. However, what I am talking about is a giant group of these Static Objects to make a section of a dungeon are saved as sections and these sections are then used in the generator to generate the dungeons in-game, thusly causing a lot of dungeons to be VERY VERY similar.

 

Yes, Skyrim has similar pieces being used everywhere but you will never find the exact same "sections" or very similar layouts nowhere. Hell, that was one of Skyrim's selling points before it came out that Todd was happily saying. That Skyrim was their first game where they did the entire world by hand, including every dungeon. That was literally a selling point for Skyrim, and that point they kept for Fallout 4.

 

Did you pay attention to any of the news about Skyrim before it was released or did you wanted to know nothing about the game before it was released?

 

For Morrowind, I'm inclined to believe you. Most ancestral tombs are kept fairly small (which is probably more believable than the sprawling D&D cliche we're used to) and there are only so many permutations. I also don't think that the dungeons (with a few exceptions) were supposed to be the interesting places in Morrowind. Morrowind is all about the wilderness and the towns and the politics and the history. It's sometimes fun to poke your head into a dungeon, but it's not the point of the game. In any case, I've never looked into enough tombs for the copy-paste aspect to really impinge, and as long as I don't notice it, it's probably a worthwhile optimization.

 

I actually agree that dungeons aren't a big thing in Morrowind, which is why I'm more fine with it, and that Ancestral Tombs are suppose to be small. I'm still saying that they still used the generator for Morrowind, and that they didn't spend much time in most dungeons in Morrowind (which is one of the things they've done in Skyrim and Fallout 4, which adds in a lot of extra unmarked content to the game to find). I was just pointing out the differences to make a point.

[Symon]

I've been watching this thread with a great deal of interest.

Rather then inflict my personal views on everyone, I'll reference this link:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Rolston

 

Notice when (or why?) he left. May be significant.

 

[Veta]

There is so much I have to say on this topic that even trying to put them in order makes my brain start hurting and many good points have been made here so I will stick to a few words.

Nobody is stopping you from liking Fallout 4 but its objectively a poorly made and partially unfinished game (it's a disgrace for Beth to rely on the modders to fix and add content into their games , its taking a shit on the love, hard work and dedication the community showed for their games)  .

 

[Jusey1]

Nobody is stopping you from liking Fallout 4 but its objectively a poorly made and partially unfinished game (it's a disgrace for Beth to rely on the modders to fix and add content into their games , its taking a shit on the love, hard work and dedication the community showed for their games)  .

 

Thing is, that's incorrect.

[Veta]

 

Nobody is stopping you from liking Fallout 4 but its objectively a poorly made and partially unfinished game (it's a disgrace for Beth to rely on the modders to fix and add content into their games , its taking a shit on the love, hard work and dedication the community showed for their games)  .

 

Thing is, that's incorrect.

 

 

It's facts .

[Ashkandii]

Pretty much, Fallout focused way too much on settlement crap. i always hated the "build-your-own-home" stuff, i don't want to nor have time to build some shitty home where ill just stick a couple of containers and then never do it again.

 

Also hate how "noob-catered" it feels in Fallout 3 and new vegas you had to some-what earn companionship this all you have to do is walk across a bridge and you already have a dog, head to diamond city, hey look you already have piper, clear out a small bandit hideout ring, follow me kate. 

 

Another problem is its mods...their too..bland...i want the ability to turn my sniper into a shotgun that uses .308x8 bullets or a lazer rifle you can turn into a lazer..stick..i don't know something diverse and dumb is what i expected..especially from the game that Aliens and Fisto. 

 

why change the format of things..why is fallout 4 changing pretty much everything all the time..yes Big gap to fallout 1 and Fallout 3, and fallout 3 and fallout new vegas but..up until fallout new vegas changing it is unnecessary...minor tweaks and additions are sometimes better then complete overhauls..specially when the current version is perfectly fine as it is.. the real-time vats. good. sprinting. good. a less dumb-looking jump. good. More AI Mechanics. good.  

But settlements? a storyline that starts with 3 lanes but somehow all end up on the same road? A hunt for your baby in a post-apocalyptic game where 90% of people that play the game tend to be the "dont give a fuck lets shoot shit up" type not "oh no i lost my baby, better pursue entire wasteland to make my family whole again

 

TL:DR Fallout 4 is going to need more attention from our talented mod community to #MakeFalloutGreatAgain.  

 

if Elder Scrolls 6 is going to be produced, then it needs to take everything from skyrim and the mods. and just...stay on that path.  sometimes doing the same thing and adding to it is for the best. 

[Jusey1]

 

It's facts .

 

No, it's not. I don't think you know the definition of "Unfinished" then if it is... Also, I don't think you understand what makes something poor or not.

[Jusey1]

Pretty much, Fallout focused way too much on settlement crap. i always hated the "build-your-own-home" stuff, i don't want to nor have time to build some shitty home where ill just stick a couple of containers and then never do it again.

 

It only focuses on the settlement crap if you do the Minuteman quests, and that is only if you bother to save Preston and do their quests. You can completely ignore them and be on your way, which also allows you to completely ignore the settlement feature. The only time you have to use is to build some things for the factions (those things being the teleporter, and other elements that each Faction needs).

 

So... The settlement crap isn't focused all that much. You can still do whatever you want and ignore it just like you can with Hearthfire in Skyrim. Difference is, it's in the base game instead of DLC.

 

 

Also hate how "noob-catered" it feels in Fallout 3 and new vegas you had to some-what earn companionship this all you have to do is walk across a bridge and you already have a dog, head to diamond city, hey look you already have piper, clear out a small bandit hideout ring, follow me kate. 

 

In Fallout 3, all you need to do is walk to the junkyard and get Dogmeat. May take a little bit more time, but it's still basically that simple. And a lot of companions in Fallout 3 and New Vegas aren't that hard to get either at all. Just pass a certain Speech check or do a small quest, and then you're good to go. Same thing in Fallout 4, except for Dogmeat. Dogmeat is the only one that doesn't require the completion of a quest and that is probably because of Dogmeat being iconic to the Fallout games, not because of "noob-catering".

 

Really, honestly, getting Dogmeat in Fallout 4 is same as in Fallout 3. Just less walking. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Another problem is its mods...their too..bland...i want the ability to turn my sniper into a shotgun that uses .308x8 bullets or a lazer rifle you can turn into a lazer..stick..i don't know something diverse and dumb is what i expected..especially from the game that Aliens and Fisto. 

 

What you call "bland", I call immersion. Turning a .308 Sniper rifle into a shotgun is literally impossible and just flat-out stupid. Same thing with the rifle, you cannot turn the rifle into a melee weapon.

 

Now, I wouldn't mind having more options myself but the system itself is pretty dang diverse and offers a lot more versatility than Fallout 3 and New Vegas ever did when it comes to weapons and armor. (And now robots, due to Automatron). So, I don't know why you should even complain about such a system...

 

 

why change the format of things

 

Long time ago, Bethesda has mentioned that they want to make every game of theirs different from each other. They want each game they make to be a different experience every time as they improve on their basic gameplay mechanics, graphics, and other things. It's what they like to do. Instead of just creating the same thing over and over again, milking the same idea (like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty), Bethesda tries new things with every game and change a lot of things, just because they want to do so. And for the most part, they do pretty dang good with the changes. Now, they're always going to be amazing at making huge open and immersive worlds filled with content. That's always been their thing. But they still generally enjoy trying out new things.

 

And honestly, I like them for that. I rather see different games than the same old game, over, and over again.

[Veta]

 

No, it's not. I don't think you know the definition of "Unfinished" then if it is... Also, I don't think you understand what makes something poor or not.

 

I am quite familiar with the definition unfinished ; is when you release the game with a broken and pointless crafting system so you can later release a cash grab dlc which adds some more shitty items to "build" or when your game cant even load the fucking shadows in half of the game resulting in massive stutters despite the game is running on a high end pc way above system requirements .

 

 

I'm not one to hate a game without reason , everyone has their tastes and that's fine by me but I really can't bring myself to understand why you are defending the game like you do , the game is full of gamebreaking flaws from the dialogue system all the way down to the graphics (which by the way I wouldn't mind at all if it wasn't such a shitty game, I still play NV and have a ton of fun)

 

 

It's not like I didnt give the game a fair chance either , more than one actually but it was a total disappointment .

Not trying to be an elitist or some sort of asshole trying to go against you but Fallout4s popularity is beyond me , When I think about Skyrim I remember a game that tried to be good , failed to be good but at the very fucking least tried while fallout 4 just derped

 

[DocClox]

I've been watching this thread with a great deal of interest. Rather then inflict my personal views on everyone, I'll reference this link:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Rolston Notice when (or why?) he left. May be significant.

 

That is interesting. Thank you.

 

 

That's rather missing the point, though. All a radiant quest is (and I have some hands-on experience here) is a way of taking what would be a copy-paste quest and parameterising it. The system allows the game to generate a all the possible permutations of a quest and select one on the fly. From the point of view of the player there is no noticable difference between writing a radiant and writing copy-paste quests for all the possible combinations of faction/settlement/quest giver/dungeon and possibly victim.

 

I highly doubt you have hands-on experience.

 

Now now. Did I pour scorn on you when you claimed to have modded all the tombs in Morrowind?

 

In any event, you don't need to take my word for it. Crack open Quick As You Like with the CK and look at how I'm using the story manager to start quests.

 

Remember, gotta look at this stuff like a critic or game developer. Not as a player. This is mostly because a common player's viewpoint is bias and has no idea what is really going on beneath the surface of the game.

What a very odd thing to say! I'm not interested in reviewing the game. I'm interested in how much fun I have playing it. And if a radiant quest works out just as stale and boring as if they had created 50,000 copy-paste quests then it's still stale and boring no matter how technically adept the implementation.

 

True, to a point. Some topics do vary a little by job or faction, and ofcourse some by race but not much. Plus, on most topics, it is very very similar with maybe a few words difference. However, point is still there that the dialogue is completely and highly copy-pasted, and based on the bare minimums it can be. No normal NPC has actual personality or interests to them... They are all just disposable town guides. Which is why the later games are much better at this... The NPCs actually got a lot more attention to them. Yes, they might say less (which is honestly a bit more realistic than Morrowind's paragraphs of words) but at least they have more personality, and every named NPC in each town has something interesting to say about themselves and their own thoughts. Especially in Skyrim.

Are you suggesting that the game would have been improved if all the less important NPCs had all been called Bandit or Settler then? Because all the Minor NPCs in F4 have the exact same dialogue as well. It's just that they're generated much like the radiant quest are. I suppose that might be an improvement if you think like a critic, but I can't see it improving the experience of playing the actual game.

 

As for the "I'll mark it on your map" ordeal... It's the easier line to use to deal with the marker you get on your map for quests, and I'm honestly fine with it.

Hmm. I think I can safely say you're in the minority there. The amount of hate for Preston Garvey is staggering, even among outright fans of the game.

 

For the record though, F4 has more factions than Oblivion, and a lot more going on for each faction than you think.

I'm sure it does. There will be a SettlerGuardDuty faction and a DiamondCityResident and dozens of other purely bookkeeping factions, just like there were in Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Oblivion. However the factions I refer to (as I think you were probably well aware) are the ones representing organizations in the game world. The one the player can join and which have NPCs and offer quests. The ones that are important if you think like a player, rather than like a critic or a developer,

 

So F4 has the Minutemen, the BoS, the Railroad and the Institute. Probably Vault 81 as well. Feel free to point out any that I've missed.

 

Oblivion has the Mages', Fighters' and Thieves' Guilds; the Dark Brotherhood; The Blades; The Mythic Dawn; The Order of the Virtuous Blood; Knights of the Thorn; Knights of the White Stallion; and Blackwood Company.

 

And then there, if you want to count factions as some sort of metric, there's always Morrowind...

 

So, I can understand why FO4 has less cities and named NPCs than the TES games. It suits the game's world better.

 

So less content is better, but only in F4? That smacks of special pleading, my friend.

 

NPCs could actually engage in talking with one another about news during their schedules, which would be more lines of dialogued added to the game.

NPCs have idle chatter in Morrowind too. You get a few scenes between NPCs just like you do in Skyrim, but NPC-NPC scenes are hardly a significant portion of the dialogue. I think you're reaching here.

 

As for my point... My point with that was about how the towns in the newer games are actually more alive and immersive than Morrowind's dead towns... It's really creepy to see NPCs hang out in the same exact spots/areas 24/7 (without player intervention), be real man.

So the shops stay open 24/7. Big deal. The schedules are nice to have (I played a bit of Morroblivion and walked into the Balmora Mages' Guild to find everyone in the middle of a meeting in the lecture area - made a pleasant change) but honesty, their absence in the game isn't the sort of damning indictment you seem to suggest.

 

Yes, they've abandoned the procedural generation system but they still kept a dungeon generator for Morrowind and Oblivion. The procedural generator was used in-game to make the same dungeons different for every playthrough, which they got rid of that. The dungeon generator used for Morrowind and Oblivion took whole sections and put them together randomly to make a dungeon, then the devs just put those dungeons made into the world and did final touches (adding enemies, quest objectives, etc).

 

 

Seems unlikely, to be honest If they had a random generator, I'd expect each dungeon to be unique. Why bother copy paste when making a new layout is trivial? I mean if you have any evidence to back up your opinion here, I'd love to see it, but otherwise it seems unlikely.

 

Ye'h. Ye'h... Static Objects that are found under Static and can be dragged to the World Window to be added to the world. I know about that and I know why places in any game can look the same due to this. However, what I am talking about is a giant group of these Static Objects to make a section of a dungeon are saved as sections and these sections are then used in the generator to generate the dungeons in-game, thusly causing a lot of dungeons to be VERY VERY similar.

 

They have large statics and prefabs in Skyrim too. I expect they'll exist in Fallout 4. I mean it's not as if those rust coloured corporate HQ skyscrapers in Boston are desperately different from one another.

 

Hell, that was one of Skyrim's selling points before it came out that Todd was happily saying.

 

Todd Howard talking up a forthcoming game is not the most reliable source in the world. Just saying.

 

I actually agree that dungeons aren't a big thing in Morrowind, which is why I'm more fine with it, and that Ancestral Tombs are suppose to be small. I'm still saying that they still used the generator for Morrowind, and that they didn't spend much time in most dungeons in Morrowind (which is one of the things they've done in Skyrim and Fallout 4, which adds in a lot of extra unmarked content to the game to find). I was just pointing out the differences to make a point.

OK. So we probably don't need to discus that one any more then. Cool. 

 

[edit]

 

I've removed a comment on the Jusey1-Veta discussion since that seems to have progressed while I was editing this.

 

[bjornk]

 

 

 

 

Wasteland Workshop, huh? How very creative! These assholes have been suing everyone for using the words fallout or scrolls in their titles, yet they see no problem in using "wasteland" as a title themselves... Wish Fargo could sue the shit out of them...

[Ashkandii]

Seems Bethesda is doing something remotely right for once, revamping survival mode

 

 

The Sole Survivor has to eat, drink, and sleep or they’ll suffer from fatigue. This will lower the character’s SPECIAL stats and drain action points.

 

Ammunition has weight as do stimpaks. The larger the ammo, the heavier each round is.

 

The character’s overall carrying capacity has been reduced, and hauling around too much stuff will increase the new fatigue meter as well.

 

The new Survival Mode introduces more diseases to Fallout 4 through a wellness level that is affected by what the Sole Survivor eats, as well as what chems they use. RadAway can give players an immunodeficiency condition that lowers wellness too. The beta test currently has craftable antibiotics that cure these diseases.

 

players will have to sleep in a bed in order to save the game.

 

Fast travel has also been removed

 

Companions will be slightly different; they won’t automatically recover after being disabled in a fight. They’ll need to be revived with a stimpak or they’ll return home

 

Something that players are going to like is an adrenaline perk that increases damage as players make kills

 

 

 

Atleast they heading in the right direction. 

 

[Jusey1]

 

What a very odd thing to say! I'm not interested in reviewing the game. I'm interested in how much fun I have playing it. And if a radiant quest works out just as stale and boring as if they had created 50,000 copy-paste quests then it's still stale and boring no matter how technically adept the implementation.

 

I was explaining how Radiant Quests and the Misc/Side Quests are two different things. I wasn't saying anything about Radiant Quests being good or what not. They're fine to have but yes, they are stale and boring due to how simple they are. I was only just pointing it out that they aren't the same thing as the others, which is why it is far worse to copy-paste Misc/Side Quests then to use Radiant Quests, like in Morrowind.

 

 

"Are you suggesting that the game would have been improved if all the less important NPCs had all been called Bandit or Settler then? Because all the Minor NPCs in F4 have the exact same dialogue as well. It's just that they're generated much like the radiant quest are. I suppose that might be an improvement if you think like a critic, but I can't see it improving the experience of playing the actual game."

 

I never said that. I am not sure how you got that idea from. I was just saying how the generic NPCs even got improvement, despite not even having names, when compared to their Morrowind counterparts. Nothing wrong with improving on the generic spawned NPCs at all.

 

 

"

Hmm. I think I can safely say you're in the minority there. The amount of hate for Preston Garvey is staggering, even among outright fans of the game."

 

I was talking about the line in general. Preston wasn't the first NPC in a Bethesda game that used the "I'll mark it on your map" line, and people don't like Preston because of his infinity Radiant Quests. (They really should've gave that Quest Giver job to someone else, not Preston). Not necessary because of this line.

 

"

I'm sure it does. There will be a SettlerGuardDuty faction and a DiamondCityResident and dozens of other purely bookkeeping factions, just like there were in Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Oblivion. However the factions I refer to (as I think you were probably well aware) are the ones representing organizations in the game world. The one the player can join and which have NPCs and offer quests. The ones that are important if you think like a player, rather than like a critic or a developer,

So F4 has the Minutemen, the BoS, the Railroad and the Institute. Probably Vault 81 as well. Feel free to point out any that I've missed.

 

Oblivion has the Mages', Fighters' and Thieves' Guilds; the Dark Brotherhood; The Blades; The Mythic Dawn; The Order of the Virtuous Blood; Knights of the Thorn; Knights of the White Stallion; and Blackwood Company.

 

And then there, if you want to count factions as some sort of metric, there's always Morrowind..."

 

Oh, Morrowind has the most factions. No need to doubt that but I say FO4 might have Oblivion beaten.

 

Let's see: Minuteman, BoS, RR, Institute are FO4's main four, which Oblivion has it's own main four. There's also Forged, Covenant, Vault 81, Atom Catz, Triggermen Gang, Children of Atom, Gunners, Bunker Hill, and the Pillars of the Community. And if you wanna count Automatron, which adds the Rust Devils faction to the game world.

 

"So less content is better, but only in F4? That smacks of special pleading, my friend."

 

I never said anything about less content. Where a town could've been, something else will be there to take it's place. Plus, you don't seem to understand the concept of world building. So there's no need to continue onward with this point. All I can say is the same thing once again which is about Fallout being a specific kind of world. I mean, Fallout 3 actually had two cities instead of Fallout 4's one but Fallout 3 has less content overall than Fallout 4... So... The number of cities/towns doesn't affect the content as much as you may think.

 

"NPCs have idle chatter in Morrowind too. You get a few scenes between NPCs just like you do in Skyrim, but NPC-NPC scenes are hardly a significant portion of the dialogue. I think you're reaching here.

 

So the shops stay open 24/7. Big deal. The schedules are nice to have (I played a bit of Morroblivion and walked into the Balmora Mages' Guild to find everyone in the middle of a meeting in the lecture area - made a pleasant change) but honesty, their absence in the game isn't the sort of damning indictment you seem to suggest."

 

Because the games are open world games, which are suppose to get you to immersive yourself into the game's world. When the game's world is full of idling NPCs who does nothing except maybe talk to themselves from time to time 24/7... The immersion breaks easily.

 

As for the dialogue part, having NPCs interact with one another and talk about things adds more dialogue lines to the game and adds more to the immersion experience, since you know... It makes it feel like the NPC are living their own life with their own relationships.

 

~

 

Note: I apologize for the quoting to be missing. I messed up with the quoting.

 

Also, I'm dropping the dungeon-talk because it'll start to repeat a bit because you won't believe the truth due to your own stubbornness. You're just refusing to think about it, and there's nothing I can do about that.

[Jusey1]

 

I am quite familiar with the definition unfinished ; is when you release the game with a broken and pointless crafting system so you can later release a cash grab dlc which adds some more shitty items to "build" or when your game cant even load the fucking shadows in half of the game resulting in massive stutters despite the game is running on a high end pc way above system requirements .

 

You sounds like you don't like the crafting system, not that it is broken or pointless. A lot of people, including myself, enjoy the crafting system. And, we're able to get it working just fine. Nothing is broken about it. And nothing wrong with Wasteland Workshop. It's just made for people who enjoys the new system, and if you don't. Then no worries about it.

 

As for the issues with shadows or other graphical things... All I can say is, the graphics are amazing for me and I greatly enjoy how beautiful the game looks. That has to be problem with your PC, not necessary with the game. I mean, everything looks good on my end *shrugs*...

 

Now, the dialogue system? That's not broken nor a major flaw. Yes, it isn't as good as the previous dialogue systems that we've gotten but this one isn't broken or flat-out bad... It's just not as good as the previous system, and yes. I don't like it very muchly myself as I do prefer the previous system but I wouldn't say this new one is that bad.

 

Nothing in the game is flat-out "unfinished" or "poorly made"... Their just different and in the case of dialogue, not necessary used to the best of it's ability.

 

Though, before you think I am being stupid. I do agree that the dialogue system was a bad choice. It's one of the issues with the game but the the system as a whole isn't the flaw. Just how it is used at times. Sometimes, it is used pretty dang nicely (for what it is, mind you). Though, I hope Bethesda doesn't keep it and doesn't keep the voice protagonist for their future games. But hey, Bethesda wanted to try something and so they did.

[Veta]

You sounds like you don't like the crafting system, not that it is broken or pointless. A lot of people, including myself, enjoy the crafting system. And, we're able to get it working just fine. Nothing is broken about it. And nothing wrong with Wasteland Workshop. It's just made for people who enjoys the new system, and if you don't. Then no worries about it.

 

The crafting system is in the game  for the sake of being there , its there to fill out the otherwise empty game with self given quests of collecting misc items and building 'stuff'  .

Before you build an entire system into your game (see what I did there ) you need a reason to have it there not just because crafting is a popular thing in video game now and they wanted to market like a game with that give you the power to build anything you want....  but just these specific items in these restricted spaces.

Modding weapons is fun for a while, provided you have the time and patience to search for duct tape and the sort but even that is limited .

 

Playing the story I was missing a son and looking after the murderer of my wife yet I was supposed to have time to help strangers, play

and build a fucking portal.... even though before armagedon I was a soldier with no experience whatsoever in anything related to engineering or molecular teleportation or whatever the fuck that is .

 

on a funny sidenote

 

 

 

Nothing in the game is flat-out "unfinished" or "poorly made"... Their just different and in the case of dialogue, not necessary used to the best of it's ability.

What do you even mean not used to the best of it's ability ? a dialogue system in an RPG that might as well not be there because all the choices are the same is to me poorly made.

 

As for unfinished the darn thing struggles to deliver a credible frame-rate.

In a RPG that supposedly relies on characters and story , the facial animation is basic at best.

And if you believe the game shines on exploration rather than story or characters then why da fuck are these

 

 

you may say for this 3rd photo that its ps4 and not pc master race and I say onto you that first two are indeed from pc, just goes to prove that the game is badly optimised on both pc's and dedicated gaming consoles 

 

the only place I want to explore when playing fallout4 is other games.

Beth was never the king of good looking games but damn its 2016 , crytek was making better looking games almost 9 years before F4s release

 

That has to be problem with your PC

Nope my PC is awesome just the game was poorly optimized , I have come to expect games to be technically adept. That’s not an unreasonable demand when I pay 60€ ,is it? 

[Jusey1]

Those pictures made me want to explore the Commonwealth some more honestly. Well, except for the one of Sanctuary Hills.

 

Anyways, I see your problem now and I honestly don't give a flying feather about your own thoughts now, that aren't facts. And I know I won't ever convince ya so I'm not gonna waste anymore time explaining. All I will say is, you're definably someone who doesn't enjoy Bethesda's games, but rather just enjoy the modding community. I'm someone who enjoys both Bethesda's games and the modding community.

 

And yes, I mean you just flat-out don't enjoy Bethesda's games. Maybe certain exceptions due to either story or other things but for the most part, you sound like an usual PC-arse to me (no offense) who complains about trivial matters and wants the almighty modding tools to do everything your way.