How reliable is LOOT? Do you always depend on it?

[srayesmanll]

Well, since BOSS is basically dead (and has been for almost 6mos or more), saying LOOT is better that BOSS is like saying a live horse runs faster than a dead horse.  While BOSS was being updated, it worked fine.  Most people that have a problem with LOOT (when they don't have a problem in general with load order apps) seem to have a problem with the "LOOT results look goofy compared to BOSS results".  LOOT works great, but just like with BOSS, you should test and verify your results.  I have run into a few issues with LOOT orders, but they were easily fixed by using LOOTs ability to set some additional ordering rules.  BOSS had issues as well, but could be fixed by setting rules as well.  The only real issue I have with LOOT compared to BOSS is when adding mods in the middle of a character playthrough.  If you decide to add a mod, BOSS will either shoehorn the mod into your current mod order based on the Master List, or it tacks it onto the end if not in it's the Master List.  With LOOT, adding a new mod could cause the entire list to be resorted completely different way.  Mods A,B,C,D might get changed to A,D,C,B with the addition of mod E.  And frankly, it may not make a big difference, or any difference to your playthrough, ... but it might.  That is what happened to me.  2 mods were working fine with BOSS load order, switched to LOOT, and it still was fine even thought the overall list looked wonky.  However, adding new mods caused the 2 mods to swap positions in the LOOT load order.  No clear reason why, but swapping the positions caused a conflict to appear the was hidden before.  So I added a rule that Mod A must always be below Mod B in LOOT's load order, and that fixed (or in reality, rehid) the conflict.

 

So is LOOT reliable?  Basically, yes.  But remember, it is still designed by humans, and humans make mistakes.  "To err is human, to really fuck things requires a computer...programmed by a human."  Always check out all resulting load orders produced by LOOT, and make use of LOOT's mod sorting rules when needed.

[enkephalin07]

Well, since BOSS is basically dead (and has been for almost 6mos or more), saying LOOT is better that BOSS is like saying a live horse runs faster than a dead horse.

You can't really place your bets until you see how they run a course. Against all common sense, the dead horse might get you better returns on the dollar.

[srayesmanll]

 

Well, since BOSS is basically dead (and has been for almost 6mos or more), saying LOOT is better that BOSS is like saying a live horse runs faster than a dead horse.

You can't really place your bets until you see how they run a course. Against all common sense, the dead horse might get you better returns on the dollar.

 

 

Actually, the best you could hope for is a tie.  The dead horse will NEVER cross the finish line, no matter how much the jockey whips it  (hence the phrase "beating a dead horse").  The live horse could drop dead before crossing the finish line (or go in the completely wrong direction).  So if the live horse never crosses the finish line, then they tie (and you still lose your money because the dead horse did not win).

 

In the real world, if the LOOT makers decide to screw the pooch and totally mess up LOOT, then BOSS can end up being better.  But if no one picks up the mantle and decides to continue to update the Master List from BOSS (which no one seems to want to do), then BOSS will never improve from it's dead status and LOOT always be better (again, unless they totally screw the pooch with LOOT).

[Luminar]

Eh, personally, I've never bothered to use either loot or boss. Trying to resolve terrain conflicts with Knights of the Nine back in 06-07 was enough of a learning exercise when it comes to sorting one's load order manually.

[kamikaze00007]

If only there was this compendium tool that doesn't discriminate between mods whether adult/ripped/or not, and that people update with a "This is ze ultimate load order of all mods in existence!" then I guess we'll always be compensating for what the tools we have now "break instead of fix in the process of fixing broken things". 

[enkephalin07]

That's a good point, if it didn't actually break things then I would've settled comfortably into reliance on it rather than taking a closer look at how slapdash it is. Like I said before, it's just not ready for prime time.

[Rayblue]

I use BOSS' masterlist.txt file to determine load order and sort mods by hand, especially newer mods that aren't yet in the list.

[Guest Vendayn]

I find BOSS annoying in my mod list. Literally a quarter of my mods are found...and every single other one I have to move myself. So literally no point in it.

 

LOOT is better and does things for me. And then I can personally change the mod list to how I like it...quite a few mods I would rather have load far down the mod list...or occasionally I have some I'd rather have load higher up. I find LOOT does a pretty good job in my game.

[RitualClarity]

 

How reliable is LOOT?

Reliable enough. It simply checks the masters for dependencies. ( at least from my understanding)

 

Do you always depend on it?

Oh hell no. it is just a tool. Move things around as you desire. I do. I move things to be more ascetic as needed to fit my personal taste. Loot only moves those things that are really bad. Use Loot. Move the stuff around to fit your desires and aesthetics where things should be according to your desire. Run LOOT again. ( just in case) Loot unlike Boss don't rearrange anything unless there is a master issue. There is lots of flexibility to load orders. Your load order won't look like mine even if I have most of the same mods as you. It is because loot only touches those files that are out of order r/t masters. You can move things around afterwards and Loot wont' move them again unless you move something out of order r/t this master requirements. Simple. If you do want something in a specific space ( against what loot states) just add an exception. I have yet to have to do this.

[Darkwisdom]

I do use loot, but don't completely depend on it. Some mods I put to the end to deliberately avoid any clashes, but it's been pretty useful and i've never found any of its sorting to break my game before. It's reliable, but only as much as BOSS was. 

[bradleyh]

I do know that LOOT created Load Order problems are fixed by the LOOT/BOSS Team if the errors are reported and verifiable.

I have been using LOOT on Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3, and New Vegas without any hiccups since it was a stable release. I used the Beta on Skyrim when it was still called BOSS, and the problems that I ran into were usually already being fixed by the LOOT/BOSS Team.

I wish People would quit stepping on the pinkish paste with bits of hair that was called BOSS and bury the poor animal. BOSS served us loyally for many Years and deserves recognition as an invaluable Utility that it was.

[enkephalin07]

I do know that LOOT created Load Order problems are fixed by the LOOT/BOSS Team if the errors are reported and verifiable.

 

There's still a barrier to contribution, or even reading the contributors' reasoning and justification. You have to create a new account and install new software that would do nothing except contribute to LOOT. They won't accept or share communication through any of the channels the community already uses. If there's only one or two order recommendations a modder ever foresees contributing, why would they wish to jump through those hoops when they don't even need to volunteer their contribution any further than their own HD?

[RitualClarity]

There was a thread here for LOOT. You could state problems. Instead of stating problems and learning people bashed it, gave random errors that were related to their errors and stupidity. Finally that individual just stopped posting and responding to these statements. Through several pages.. not one confirmed error that wasn't already known and fixed or being fixed were reported. That is likely the reason for the added steps. less than 1 % of mods require special treatment through LOOT. The added steps help insulate those working on this from reading days of hate messages and BS just to find one possible problem then to find out that it is the users error and not something that loot needs to fix.

 

When following proper mod development there is very rarely ever a need to be last in the load order. Most state that because they are lazy and or don't want to deal with user conflicts. In reality you only need to be lower than the Master and files that you are overwriting/ accessing. The only things that have to be last are Bash patches etc. ( for obvious reasons.. as they are overwriting/accessing all the mods above. )

 

Before using LOOT I just checked the master requirements and made sure the mods were below those masters.. Never a crash and rarely an issue functioning. Sometimes a author had accessed files not listed in the masters and they wouldn't work properly. An armor wouldn't show up etc. No game breaking problems.

 

Now I use LOOT and if in doubt TESedit ran and no problems. Sure I go back and move a mod up or down to override those files that I want or need to.. Those are choices for optimum performance  etc. My game will still play regardless. LOOT don't cover those aspects of the game. SIMM and various texture/mesh mods are examples. Some lighting mods are other examples.

[enkephalin07]

Here's where they really undermine my confidence; for the 1% of plugins that require special attention, the algorithm just can't leave the rest alone, by shuffling them unnecessarily it completely encrypts the organization to the point that no one could make intelligent decisions about it. In contrast Wrye Bash gives an easily visible color code to identify missing or disorganized masters, you can move them yourself for consistency, you may even change the order of a plugin's masters.

 

And I can understand the reasons for their isolation, but it doesn't change the fact that they have isolated themselves. They've divorced the community over the common crap that moderators have to deal with all the time.  A better solution would be to sticky the rules visibly at the top of the thread, and then ask for a moderator's cluebat to deal to those entering the thread in obvious need of a clue. I'm sure someone would volunteer to do the dirty job.

[RitualClarity]

 

In contrast Wrye Bash gives an easily visible color code to identify missing or disorganized masters, you can move them yourself for consistency, you may even change the order of a plugin's masters.

 

The Color thing might be nice.. A pre coloring of master dependencies.. Nice. Perhaps if not included into LOOT maybe MO?  Also our own PrideSlayer and FOMM here on LL has added such a thing to the version of FOMM he is developing. It is doable on the manager side of things at least.

 

Anyway.. you don't have to use them. Essentially you can get the same thing running TESedit. It stops at a bad or missing master. Make the change ( your choice) then re-run the program. Stops make the needed changes.. run. Like I said .. until recently I never used load managers. ( BOSS) I didn't like them or trust them. I trust LOOT to do the one thing it is suppose to do. Move the master dependencies to a location where they work. I always check the changes and make any alternate changes I feel need to fit my desires.

[Vykroft]

Well I believe in LOOT, and if I have a disagree with the load order I just create a new priority for the mod I want to change.

But.... know that i'm thinking in that..... basically I did the same with BOSS..... so I in the end.... I trust and distrust both 

[Ricocotech]

I've used both BOSS and LOOT, and through my experience, LOOT has been the best. When I was using BOSS it would always not recognize a couple of mods that I have and I would have to manually fix the load order. I would also have to redo manually fixing the mod order the next time I ran BOSS. LOOT however I didn't have the need to manually adjust. It always put all of my mods in it's proper places. And unlike BOSS you can manipulate the sorting algorithm and change the mod priorities. Say for instance I want one mod to load before or after another mod. I could change the priority and LOOT will remember it. All in all, after using both, I prefer LOOT for it's extra functionality. 

 

I'm sure you've seen it, but just in case a YouTuber named Gopher has done videos on LOOT.

Here ---> 

The part you'll be probably interested in is around the 5min mark. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

[b3lisario]

From a technical point of view, LOOT is better.

 

It solves the simple mod conflicts just by checking what records are being modified by each mod. This doesn't need master list and works for any future mod. This is what BOSS can't do, so it puts the unknown mods to the bottom.

 

When various mods alter the same record LOOT gives priority to the mod that alters more records (or less records, don't remember). This may be wrong or not, depends of mod and user. I guess it doesn't matter for popular mods because they'll already have an entry in the master list.

 

The random-like order is awful but harmless. LOOT is using an unordered map to store the mods, which is faster than ordered maps. I think it could be easily changed with no appreciable speed loss, and the order would be mostly alphabetical.

[Dingaling22]

I just installed and ran LOOT for the first time, I think that this is useful for sorting out mod load order if your confused, just cross check its load order with the mods recommended order and you should be free to go.

 

I have also found tes5edit helpful in tracking down mod conflicts. It is tedious as you have to go through the mods one by one, but I have noticed that it has stabilized my game to the point where I can play it for a good length of time before a random CTD occurs.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fw3g_N1jcZQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UOQO2S6HDBw

[gvman3670]

I use LOOT and have no issues whatsoever with it. Of course, I also use MO and that shows me potential issues before I even start the LOOT sorting. And I generally don't run 150 mods, I read mod conflict warnings, and I don't bash/merge mods (since I don't come close to the max number anyway).

 

So it works for me, and to hell with what the LO "looks" like.

[andrea fin]

i use loot instead of boss now. but, loot still cant figure out that hentaicreatures needs to be after all the nudecreatures esps not before them. plus it gets some other things wrong so i wind up moving those about after but if i add a new mod and am unsure where to put it then loot will get run to give me a hint. then i will fix its errors and test. the irony was last time i ran boss it sorted the list better than loot simply by getting hentai creatures right...

 

so, yes loot is maybe better than boss, but neither are perfect, and you will still need to reorder something or other into the right place. i dont bother trying to add to the masterlists, quicker to run loot only if i have to and then open nmm and drag them to the right place again then play. of course i have probably run fnis about 100 times during the whole process just out of habit lol

[Serithi]

I really only use LOOT if i'm setting up on a new installation and i've installed a ton of mods without ordering them yet. From then in it's purely manual, i pay attention to known mod incompatibilities on the mod pages as well as my own common sense regarding what's gonna be overwritten. I've never really gotten all the fuss about NMM or Mod Organizer or the like, it may be convenient to an extent, but it's far better practice to do things manually and know the folder structure, since then you know where you're putting the files and can easily go in and pick and choose what you do and don't want installed. Especially since not all mods are set up for NMM anyway.

[Rayblue]

 

 

I've never really gotten all the fuss about NMM or Mod Organizer

 

I tried going manual once after I got sick of NMM, but even after all the careful planning, well, shit happens that a clean reinstall had to be done. One really has to be a masochist to do manual all the way.

[gvman3670]

I really only use LOOT if i'm setting up on a new installation and i've installed a ton of mods without ordering them yet. From then in it's purely manual, i pay attention to known mod incompatibilities on the mod pages as well as my own common sense regarding what's gonna be overwritten. I've never really gotten all the fuss about NMM or Mod Organizer or the like, it may be convenient to an extent, but it's far better practice to do things manually and know the folder structure, since then you know where you're putting the files and can easily go in and pick and choose what you do and don't want installed. Especially since not all mods are set up for NMM anyway.

 

NMM sucks (for the same reasons that manual installs suck actually....."holes" left if anything is uninstalled). But MO teaches you file structure, allows over "reads" (not actually "writes") with drag and drop ease of use, plus it keeps your Skyrim install clean and tidy by not adding anything to it. And there are more than a dozen other awesome features as well.

 

Mod Organizer is 1000X better than NMM or manual installs. It really is. I've used them all (as well as FOMM and OBMM) and there is nothing as functional as good ol' MO.

[Serithi]

Eh, even then. I don't install something unless i'm damn sure i want it and can install it with no problems, and even if i do end up uninstalling it i always have backups. Manual may be slower, but works just fine for me nonetheless.

 

To this day i've never had something screw up so badly and be so obscure that i had to reinstall everything, and that's because i follow good procedure and know the ins and outs of the folder structure. I've had screwups before, that's just a fact of TES modding, but they've been far and few in between and i've always been able to manually fix them.