Proposition to De-Privatize the Rigs used in most Animations and CAS Parts

[thaclone]

54 minutes ago, Scorpio said:

From an end users point of view...

 

I've had no problems with WW rigs or deformed parts and the old animations still work fine.

 

EA uses proprietary stuff that breaks Mods and CC all the time and the last update was a good example.

If you don't like it, tough.

They don't share their tools, source code, or anything else either.

 

It's all well and good to think 'Sharing is Caring' but in RL it doesn't work that way.

How many other Mod Creators share their secrets with the rest of the world, for the sake of the Community, lol?

 

Whichever direction TURBO decides is fine with me as I remain neutral as it's his Mod and his call.

I don't need it changed so I really don't care about it.

 

I just had to comment that I like WW just fine the way it is, but improvements are always nice. 

+1 from my side

I like WW the way it is...

if anyone else wants something better or different... don't hesitate to do so... but trying to force somebody to make their work open source is just wrong

[autobanned]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:20 AM, ColonolNutty said:

I am currently adding a property to both CAS Part and Animation (Specifically on the animation actors, since they aren't all humans!) snippets in my mods to allow CC authors and Animators to specify which version of Rig their CAS Parts and Animations require to be installed. If a version is not installed, DD will not display those Animations nor CAS Parts that require it. Doing this will allow those who wish to stay on the old rigs to continue doing so, and those who wish to update to the version 2 rigs can do so as well, without hassle!

I am adding two properties to both
"required_rig_version" and "required_rig_bones".

They specify the rig_version if they require all of the bones from a specific rig.
They specify the rig_bones if they require only a few bones from specific rigs, regardless of version.

 

For example, some of the shorter Noir penises could specify specific bones, since they don't require the removed Penis Tip bones. (This CAS Part will show regardless of rig version, because both of the current rigs have the bones it uses)

But for the longer Noir penises, they would specify Version 1, because Version 1 rig has the tip bones. (If version 1 is not available, these penises would not be  available either)

 

I highly recommend WW do the same.

 

i'm confuse in here, so the game can load 2 default replacement rig ?

and the mod can choose which rig that needed for the mod?

if this is true, then why not set the spesific rig on the mod it self?

 

and as far as i know, the sims rig are limited to 180 bones only, and in WW are already 180 bones there, and no more bones can added there. so if there a mod that have custom sims rig and have diff bones from WW, then it must only choose one, WW or the other mod.

 

and for the custom sims rig mod are inside the WW mod, i think (my opinion), to make it easy to update for the user.

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

1 hour ago, autobanned said:

 

i'm confuse in here, so the game can load 2 default replacement rig ?

and the mod can choose which rig that needed for the mod?

if this is true, then why not set the spesific rig on the mod it self?

No, it would still be a single rig. The mods themselves will check for the bones the loaded CAS Parts and Animations specify that they need. WW won't need to complain about "rig conflict" anymore because the CAS Parts and Animations it makes available work with the rig you have installed.

 

For example, if I installed one of Noir's Penises that uses the Penis tip bones and I have the rig installed that includes all of the penis tip bones, then WW will show it.
If I installed one of Noir's Penises that uses the Penis tip bones and I have a rig installed that DOES NOT have the penis tip bones, then WW will not show it.

 

The idea is for the mods to check the rigs for the bones themselves, leaving it to the player to decide which Rig to use.
 

1 hour ago, autobanned said:

then it must only choose one, WW or the other mod.

Again, WW has the capacity to check for bones and prevent CAS Parts and Animations from showing, if bones do not exist that they require. Same with any other mod that utilizes custom rigs.

2 hours ago, thaclone said:

trying to force somebody to make their work open source is just wrong

Turbodriver did not make the rigs, so this point doesn't work.

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

Please remember to "like" the second post to show your disagreement/disapproval, complaining about it and not casting a vote doesn't help you in the end!

[BatDood]

10 minutes ago, ColonolNutty said:

Turbodriver did not make the rigs, so this point doesn't work.

I'm curious. If that's the case and he didn't make them then why aren't they already available to you in that you have to create a proposition for them to have them de-privatized?

[DoctaSax]

I will point out that giving 'likes' to the original and second post obviously cannot force WW to change one way or the other, so there is no need for anxiety there if so inclined. What it might do is open a discussion though, if people can refrain from going into battle mode.

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

35 minutes ago, BatDood said:

I'm curious. If that's the case and he didn't make them then why aren't they already available to you in that you have to create a proposition for them to have them de-privatized?

Who says they are not available to me? The point of the post is that they are not available/readily accessible to the community. There is not a collective place to acquire old rigs, if someone wants to continue using "outdated" CAS Parts and Animations. Instead people are currently forced to accept the one in WW as the "one true rig" and it will complain to people if they attempt to use any other.

 

19 minutes ago, DoctaSax said:

I will point out that giving 'likes' to the original and second post obviously cannot force WW to change one way or the other, so there is no need for anxiety there if so inclined. What it might do is open a discussion though, if people can refrain from going into battle mode.

They don't have to entirely remove their rigs, but it is highly suggested that they accommodate a change to their mod so that people can use whatever rigs they like. Without having WW scream at them about using the "wrong" rigs.

 

It is a change that will make WW less combative to those who use it.

[MrGrey]

13 hours ago, ColonolNutty said:

<snip>

 

3. When Wicked Whims suddenly changes the bones on their rig, ALL mods that were made as "addons" have to follow suit. Just look at what happened recently when the rig was changed. The tongue bones and some of the penis tip bones are removed, causing many CAS Parts to stop working, where the penis would stretch really far out or the tongue would just float midair.

 

<snip>

 

I've proposed a solution above that will make this "rig conflict" notification obsolete, Turbodriver simply needs to implement it.

Ah. I see now. That's what the tongue thing was all about. 

It seems strange that the rig is not already public. It would be in the interest of WW to make the bones public so people can make their own rigs. More animations means more the mod is more useful.

 

[Scorpio]

42 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

It would be in the interest of WW to make the bones public so people can make their own rigs.

What if someone else made the new Rigs for WW, or helped?

Should TURBO release someone else's work?

[BatDood]

1 hour ago, ColonolNutty said:

Who says they are not available to me? The point of the post is that they are not available/readily accessible to the community.

So if you have them available to you but the rest of the community doesn't or they're not readily accessible, it has me curious as to how you have access but they don't.

Aside from that you stated:

 

2 hours ago, ColonolNutty said:

Turbodriver did not make the rigs, so this point doesn't work.

If he didn't create them then they don't belong to him, correct? Since you're concerned about the community, why not step up to the plate and host them yourself so that the entire community has access to them? Problem solved and it would negate the need for this thread.

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

  

1 hour ago, Scorpio said:

What if someone else made the new Rigs for WW, or helped?

Should TURBO release someone else's work?

Rigs are EA property. You can't simply add bones to an EA asset and claim that you "made" it. Releasing the rigs would not be considered stealing, because you can't "steal" from EA when they provide these to us.

 

Claiming you made it would be like buying a pie at the store, putting whipped cream on it, and saying "I made this". Yeah, you added the whipped cream, but you didn't make the whipped cream or the pie.

 

49 minutes ago, BatDood said:

So if you have them available to you but the rest of the community doesn't or they're not readily accessible, it has me curious as to how you have access but they don't.

I have access because I searched for them. Sure, I could easily give them to anyone who needs them. That isn't the point however. Passing around the rigs would still be done in DMs/PMs, we should have a publicly accessible way to get the rigs, rather than having to hunt them down.

 

49 minutes ago, BatDood said:

If he didn't create them then they don't belong to him, correct? Since you're concerned about the community, why not step up to the plate and host them yourself so that the entire community has access to them? Problem solved and it would negate the need for this thread.

Obviously I can't host them myself, you already see how everyone reacts at the mere mention of my name. If I host them, the download will be treated with disdain and disgust just as my other mods are treated, it will probably turn into yet another "you have his mods so you get banned". Even if they are the exact same rigs, they would only care that it was me that provided them.

Edited June 24, 2022 by ColonolNutty

[Oops19]

33 minutes ago, BatDood said:

If he didn't create them then they don't belong to him, correct?

The rigs are property of EA. EA added more than 160 of the 180 bones. Modifying copyrighted material and publishing it again does not revoke their copyright.
For the modification itself one may claim the copyright.

Obviously it's a lame modification with bones not properly configured. The opposite index and the orientation of the bones are wrong.
In ASCII art: A penis should have bones like this: '----'. The rig has defined the bones like this: '| | | |'. The same applies to the anus bones which use Identity orientation.
Of course it works and one can animate it.

For now I'll keep using the old rig with tongue bones as it's more important for me than the option for an anus animation.

[Scorpio]

7 minutes ago, ColonolNutty said:

"I made this". Yeah, you added the whipped cream, but you didn't make the whipped cream or the pie.

Minor technicality the lawyers would have fun with.

As long as you changed them in some way by adding something 'extra' you can claim you made it.

GM buys parts made all over the world made by other suppliers and puts them all together and stamps the GM logo on the finished product.

They own it because they assembled it.

Need to buy GM parts, go buy them, but they probably won't fit on a Ford or a Dodge. 

 

TURBO, or whoever, used EA rigs and used them in a Mod that HE created, so the Mod belongs to him to do as he pleases even tho the internals belong to EA.

Because he added extra value to the original contents just like the pies.

 

You have access to the same EA rigs as TURBO and everyone else then so you can make your own Mod and say you created it.

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

5 minutes ago, Scorpio said:

Minor technicality the lawyers would have fun with.

As long as you changed them in some way by adding something 'extra' you can claim you made it.

GM buys parts made all over the world made by other suppliers and puts them all together and stamps the GM logo on the finished product.

They own it because they assembled it.

Need to buy GM parts, go buy them, but they probably won't fit on a Ford or a Dodge. 

 

TURBO, or whoever, used EA rigs and used them in a Mod that HE created, so the Mod belongs to him to do as he pleases even tho the internals belong to EA.

Because he added extra value to the original contents just like the pies.

 

You have access to the same EA rigs as TURBO and everyone else then so you can make your own Mod and say you created it.

I think you missed the point. Perhaps it wasn't a very good metaphor, since you actually buy the Pie and the Whipped Cream, so you own them. You don't buy the rigs from EA. They provide them freely.

Edited June 24, 2022 by ColonolNutty

[BatDood]

27 minutes ago, ColonolNutty said:

I have access because I searched for them. Sure, I could easily give them to anyone who needs them. That isn't the point however. Passing around the rigs would still be done in DMs/PMs, we should have a publicly accessible way to get the rigs, rather than having to hunt them down.

In your first post of this thread you clearly state that the rigs are locked inside of Wicked Whims. It's the second sentence in your post. But you also stated here that you got access because you searched for them.

I'm little confused here.

Since you can obviously obtain them by searching for them then everybody in the community can also do the same.

So why is this de-privatizing thread even a thing? Everybody has access to them just by searching. They're already de-privatized.

[Scorpio]

12 minutes ago, ColonolNutty said:

You don't buy the rigs from EA.

Pretty sure you need to buy the game unless you have a pirated copy.

WW is also free to use on LL.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Scorpio

[Gambit]

4 minutes ago, BatDood said:

In your first post of this thread you clearly state that the rigs are locked inside of Wicked Whims. It's the second sentence in your post. But you also stated here that you got access because you searched for them.

I'm little confused here.

Since you can obviously obtain them by searching for them then everybody in the community can also do the same.

So why is this de-privatizing thread even a thing? Everybody has access to them just by searching. They're already de-privatized.

 

Maybe you will understand the issue with this parable :.

WW is like a compagny producing a media player accepting only one codec, actively forcing people producing media to use their codec and banning people looking for another media player.

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

  

39 minutes ago, BatDood said:

In your first post of this thread you clearly state that the rigs are locked inside of Wicked Whims. It's the second sentence in your post. But you also stated here that you got access because you searched for them.

I'm little confused here.

Since you can obviously obtain them by searching for them then everybody in the community can also do the same.

So why is this de-privatizing thread even a thing? Everybody has access to them just by searching. They're already de-privatized.

I don't think I was clear enough "locked" wasn't the right word when describing the rigs themselves. I should have stated this for the blend files for the rigs. The blend files are what is used to make Animations and CAS Parts with is not accessible. The blend files aren't in the Wicked Whims package. I don't have access to those.

 

The blend files for the various rigs are what needs to be made available to everybody. In one convenient place to download them. So the page would be the following:
1. A place to gain access to blend files (for animating/cas part creation) for various rigs from various authors.

2. A place to gain access to install various rigs from various authors.

 

36 minutes ago, Scorpio said:

Pretty sure you need to buy the game unless you have a pirated copy.

WW is also free to use on LL.

I'm sure claiming you own the rigs because you bought the game will hold up in a court of law. It is stated in the EA TOS that EA owns both the assets of Sims 4 and any modifications made to them, including adding new bones or extracting blend files from the rigs with new bones.

 

Are you saying everything in WW is free to use in other mods? I don't think that is accurate.

Edited June 24, 2022 by ColonolNutty

[Scorpio]

6 minutes ago, ColonolNutty said:

I'm sure claiming you own the rigs because you bought the game will hold up in a court of law

Who claimed they owned the rigs, not me.

[BatDood]

7 minutes ago, ColonolNutty said:

I don't think I was clear enough "locked" wasn't the right word when describing the rigs themselves. I should state the blend files for the rigs, used to make Animations and CAS Parts with is not accessible. The blend files aren't in the Wicked Whims package. I don't have access to those.

I see. So you can basically get access to certain things by going through the internals of Wicked Whims but the blend files aren't available.

So where do those blend files originate? EA? Wouldn't you be able to search for those as well if that's the case?

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

  

19 minutes ago, Scorpio said:

 

It appears as though you are simply here to troll, since you haven't put a "like" on the second post to indicate your disagreement/disapproval. We could debate all day, but in the end, you haven't casted your vote, so what you say ultimately wouldn't matter toward the outcome.

  

13 minutes ago, BatDood said:

Wouldn't you be able to search for those as well if that's the case?

That would be convenient.

If there is such a page that provides a wide range of rigs as well as the blend files for them, then I will happily delete this thread after WW updates their mod to support a user choosing which rigs they wish to use and stops complaining to people about "incorrect" rigs.

Edited June 24, 2022 by ColonolNutty

[Gambit]

14 minutes ago, BatDood said:

I see. So you can basically get access to certain things by going through the internals of Wicked Whims but the blend files aren't available.

So where do those blend files originate? EA? Wouldn't you be able to search for those as well if that's the case?

 

Finding rigs is not so hard, imo :

https://turbodriver.itch.io/wickedwhims/devlog/139574/creating-basic-animations-in-blender-1

 

[IfYouOnlyKnewMe]

12 minutes ago, Gambit said:

 

Finding rigs is not so hard, imo :

https://turbodriver.itch.io/wickedwhims/devlog/139574/creating-basic-animations-in-blender-1

 

Looks like a Wicked Whims page to me. It does not look like a page that provides all rigs (especially old rigs).

 

These blend files also do not match what is currently in Wicked Whims.

Edited June 24, 2022 by ColonolNutty

[BatDood]

1 hour ago, ColonolNutty said:

If there is such a page that provides a wide range of rigs as well as the blend files for them, then I will happily delete this thread after WW updates their mod to support a user choosing which rigs they wish to use and stops complaining to people about "incorrect" rigs.

That's all well and good but it doesn't answer my question about who in your opinion created these blend files.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

All that matters is that the current WW implementation BREAKS user's choice in using custom rigs, whichever it would be.

Like Nutty keeps on coming back to, some people might even prefer the old WW rigs, but Turbo just chose to not let people choose.

It's a no-brainer to want to have a choice. If you don't want to have a choice and feel like one modder is supposed to pick for you, you surely don't respect yourself.

WW enforcing these new rigs breaks content and instead of having choice modders are forced to update that content.

I've mentioned in my previous post in this thread that this is basically eliminating an option of making mods that would implement custom bone layout for stuff like tail animation for anthros, or any other custom bone setup. Because Turbo doesn't care for our choice but for making WW idiotproof and goes the easy way, instead of implementing a pretty good compromise of WW checking what rigs are used while still letting advanced users pick what they want.

Edited June 24, 2022 by BenjiThatFoxGuy