Proposition to De-Privatize the Rigs used in most Animations and CAS Parts

[BatDood]

4 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

All that matters is that the current WW implementation BREAKS user's choice in using custom rigs, whichever it would be.

Like Nutty keeps on coming back to, some people might even prefer the old WW rigs, but Turbo just chose to not let people choose.

It's a no-brainer to want to have a choice. If you don't want to have a choice and feel like one modder is supposed to pick for you, you surely don't respect yourself.

WW enforcing these new rigs breaks content and instead of having choice modders are forced to update that content.

I've mentioned in my previous post in this thread that this is basically eliminating an option of making mods that would implement custom bone layout for stuff like tail animation for anthros, or any other custom bone setup. Because Turbo doesn't care for our choice but for making WW idiotproof and goes the easy way, instead of implementing a pretty good compromise of WW checking what rigs are used while still letting advanced users pick what they want.

If you don't like the way that WW has gone, then it's a simple case of uninstalling it. A nice, easy solution.

You're referring to giving people a choice, and you have one.

It's Turbo's mod to do with as he pleases and there's no opinions that can be put on the table that state otherwise.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

1 minute ago, BatDood said:

If you don't like the way that WW has gone, then it's a simple case of uninstalling it. A nice, easy solution.

You're referring to giving people a choice, and you have one.

It's Turbo's mod to do with as he pleases and there's no opinions that can be put on the table that state otherwise.

it's not a choice if a mod that i like using, is done so lazily it makes making other mods impossible.

It's not a choice if I want to make something for his mod, but his mod is done in a way it's impossible so even if he said "go ahead" i couldn't.

it's Turbo's mod to do with as he pleases yes, but the way he chose to build WW doesn't take into consideration other mods. He builds WW, not caring what the user would want to have installed alongside it. Prioritising his ease of work and completely disregarding the community, to the point of even ignoring bug reports and feedback from patrons.

Look at the rest of the sims 4 modding community, with some exceptions (and i won't call names) many modders even COMMUNICATE to make sure people can use both mods at the same time! How's that for a change!

[BatDood]

2 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

it's not a choice if a mod that i like using, is done so lazily it makes making other mods impossible.

It's not a choice if I want to make something for his mod, but his mod is done in a way it's impossible so even if he said "go ahead" i couldn't.

it's Turbo's mod to do with as he pleases yes, but the way he chose to build WW doesn't take into consideration other mods. He builds WW, not caring what the user would want to have installed alongside it. Prioritising his ease of work and completely disregarding the community, to the point of even ignoring bug reports and feedback from patrons.

Look at the rest of the sims 4 modding community, with some exceptions (and i won't call names) many modders even COMMUNICATE to make sure people can use both mods at the same time! How's that for a change!

None of this changes anything.

It IS a choice to continue to use a mod "that i like using, is done so lazily it makes making other mods impossible."

Continuing to use it is YOUR choice.

 

It IS a choice "if I want to make something for his mod, but his mod is done in a way it's impossible so even if he said "go ahead" i couldn't."

You can create content for it or you don't. Yes, that's a choice as well.

 

You're not happy about it. That's clear. But as you've acknowledged, it's his mod to do with as his pleases and nothing anybody says changes that.

[Matthewn]

99% of users don't understand how the rig in the sims 4 is extremely limited and 99% of them agree with this thread. A XPMSE sims version of a rig is impossible and not doable. Multiples rigs will create desastrous conflicts and an immense confusion among users and creators. In fact, it will make the entire community even more divided. 

 

Do not blindly listen to what ColonolNutty is writting. Do not stay ignorant and stay informed by how animations and rigs are handled by developpers in the sims. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Matthewn

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

Just now, BatDood said:

None of this changes anything.

It IS a choice to continue to use a mod "that i like using, is done so lazily it makes making other mods impossible."

Continuing to use it is YOUR choice.

 

It IS a choice "if I want to make something for his mod, but his mod is done in a way it's impossible so even if he said "go ahead" i couldn't."

You can create content for it or you don't. Yes, that's a choice as well.

 

You're not happy about it. That's clear. But as you've acknowledged, it's his mod to do with as his pleases and nothing anybody says changes that.

This changes everything, as WW keeps on being the main mod used and while Turbo boasts about choice and customizability the choice is severely limited and the custom content creation process is extremely unfriendly.

Riddled with having to navigate old tutorials and asking him for hints, only to learn that he didn't get back to me but instead implemented my idea for a plugin i've asked for assistance on how to make into the main mod.

Lack of proper documentation and implementation that basically blocks a freedom the game gives you.

Close to 50 people are not happy about it, and that's VERY clear.

And as I've also acknowledged, it's his mod that imposes serious limitations on anyone who choses to use it while still being the one many prefer.
That's called a monopoly.

As Nutty said, look at the Skyrim community.

It's a valid criticism.

It would only be the icing on the cake, the creme de la creme to let us use custom rigs on top of WW's (IMO) good Nudity and Sex implementation.

Some people prefer DD, i support Nutty but I like WW and that's why it's weird how Turbo would keep this limitation in.

I'm vocal because it's hard to not say that this lack of choice, even if it's his choice is basically a crutch to WW's otherwise mostly good experience.

If the rigs weren't privatized, people could still reinstall the old rigs and keep on using old body parts.

In a few years time, a ton of them will become useless as some creators become inactive and WW's careless and destructive no-choice update process makes everything incompatible but keeping only the few blessed creators's creations functional.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

9 minutes ago, Matthewn said:

99% of users don't understand how the rig in the sims 4 is extremely limited and 99% of them that agree with this thread are them. A XPMSE sims version of a rig is impossible and not doable. Multiples rigs will create desastrous conflicts and an immense confusion among users and creators. In fact, it will make the entire community even more divided. 

 

Do not blindly listen to what ColonolNutty is writting. Do not stay ignorant and be informed by how animations and rigs are handled by developpers in the sims. 

If there's a risk of the community dividing itself because of different preference, then it's not a bad risk.
Limiting people to one thing just so that you can force them into one clump is in my opinion dumb.

Look at Sims 4 venue lists, somehow modders were able to agree to make the file separated.

And it was only possible because Turbo wasn't involved.

Nobody implied a XPMSE implementation for Sims 4 is possible, in fact the Sims 4 rig limitation is exactly why having an option to swap and choose rigs would be cool for people who want to experiment. If the rig limitation didn't exist, WW would have a big fat rig by now and custom rigs could add bones WW could disregard.

The rig limitation is THE REASON people think having the rig be separated would be a good idea, just so that different preferences can all still be accomodated.

Edited June 25, 2022 by BenjiThatFoxGuy

[Matthewn]

1 minute ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

If there's a risk of the community dividing itself because of different preference, then it's not a bad risk.
Limiting people to one thing just so that you can force them into one clump is in my opinion dumb.

Look at Sims 4 venue lists, somehow modders were able to agree to make the file separated.

And it was only possible because Turbo wasn't involved.

Nobody implied a XPMSE implementation for Sims 4 is possible, in fact the Sims 4 rig limitation is exactly why having an option to swap and choose rigs would be cool for people who want to experiment. If the rig limitation didn't exist, WW would have a big fat rig by now and custom rigs could add bones WW could disregard.

The rig limitation is THE REASON people thing having the rig be separated would be a good idea, just so that different preferences can all still be accomodated.

 

No one prevent you to create your own rig. The rig limitation is intaured by EA, not turbo.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Matthewn

[Matthewn]

41 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

All that matters is that the current WW implementation BREAKS user's choice in using custom rigs, whichever it would be.

 

The old rig is still available to download in this site. No one is forcing anyone to use wickedwhims with the new rig.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

2 minutes ago, Matthewn said:

 

No one prevent you to create your own rig. The rig limitation is intaured by EA, not turbo.

no, the custom loading rig limitation is from WW.

Mods can influence things like rig load, and WW unnegotiably messes up all custom rigs but the one that comes bundled with it.

and that's the gist of it, so that custom rigs can be used without at all asking him to do anything more.

just giving people choice and not making other rigs impossible.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

Just now, Matthewn said:

 

The old rig is still available to download in this site. No one is forcing anyone to use wickedwhims with the new rig.

wickedwhims is forcing me to use wickedwhims with the new rig, if i download the old rig wickedwhims will spit out an error and the old rig will not function properly.

this is what we're all talking about here, didn't you see? this one and only thing, this simplest thing.

[Gambit]

5 minutes ago, Matthewn said:

99% of users don't understand how the rig in the sims 4 is extremely limited and 99% of them that agree with this thread are them. A XPMSE sims version of a rig is impossible and not doable. Multiples rigs will create desastrous conflicts and an immense confusion among users and creators. In fact, it will make the entire community even more divided. 

 

Do not blindly listen to what ColonolNutty is writting. Do not stay ignorant and be informed by how animations and rigs are handled by developpers in the sims. 

 

Oh yes, you're certainly one of the 1% clever dudes. Do not stay ignorant : don't think to new solution.

 

It's maybe because Sims4 rig have limitations that several rigs for different situations would be a plus. It's because multiple rigs could create complications and division, that communication and cooperation is important. Fat chance, the Sims4 community is maybe one of the most toxic one.

[Matthewn]

Just now, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

no, the custom loading rig limitation is from WW.

Mods can influence things like rig load, and WW unnegotiably messes up all custom rigs but the one that comes bundled with it.

and that's the gist of it, so that custom rigs can be used without at all asking him to do anything more.

just giving people choice and not making other rigs impossible.

 

But it's not true. You can add the old rig with a loading priority. WW will throw you a fatal error you can ignore.

 

[Matthewn]

1 minute ago, Gambit said:

 

Oh yes, you're certainly one of the 1% clever dudes. Do not stay ignorant : don't think to new solution.

 

 

The solution looks interesting, but in practice, it's not great. We aren't in Skyrim.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

Just now, Matthewn said:

 

But it's not true. You can add the old rig with a loading priority. WW will throw you a fatal error you can ignore.

 

i can't ignore the error as WW was built in a way to purposefully block this. 

we wouldn't be having this thread if this wasn't the case, do you not understand?

i've given example of Venue lists as the one great example of Sims 4 modders being able to agree on something.

i really have nothing more to say, as you clearly misunderstand the problem and how people that aren't Turbo behave in relation to other modders.

it makes no sense to try and explain to you if you're trying to tell me things that aren't true.

i'll just continue the discussion with someone who can at least listen, without "if you don't like it, uninstall it" and "that's not true" without making sure if it really is.

and that's not you

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

2 minutes ago, Matthewn said:

 

The solution looks interesting, but in practice, it's not great. We aren't in Skyrim.

it's not great, but what would you call the current solution?

i'm genuinely curious of your defence to this whole "keep it integrated, nobody cares" stance.

i really am trying to get to know both sides of the argument.

[BatDood]

1 minute ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

Close to 50 people are not happy about it, and that's VERY clear.

If you're using that as a gauge then you should re-evaluate that opinion. Anybody can log into alt accounts to boost the likes on a thread. They mean nothing.

 

7 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

If the rigs weren't privatized, people could still reinstall the old rigs and keep on using old body parts.

If you had read through the previous posts made today you would have realized that it's not the rigs that are the issue. It's the blend files as ColonolNutty pointed out directly to which he can't access.

EA has no ownership over blend files. If a person incorporates them into their mod then so be it. The original post is misleading because it doesn't state the actual issue. The statement that "rigs are locked inside Wicked Whims" is dramatic at best.

 

And I hate to pop your balloon but it's not a monopoly when there are alternatives, as referenced by your statement:

"Some people prefer DD, i support Nutty but I like WW and that's why it's weird how Turbo would keep this limitation in."

 

16 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

I'm vocal because it's hard to not say that this lack of choice, even if it's his choice is basically a crutch to WW's otherwise mostly good experience.

I think you missed the point. It's not his choice that's in question where the subject of "choice" is concerned. It your choice and to try and say that you don't have one is a little weak.

[Gambit]

6 minutes ago, Matthewn said:

 

The solution looks interesting, but in practice, it's not great. We aren't in Skyrim.

 

99% of new stuff came after some idiot didn't listen to old wise men saying "It is not possible".

 

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

9 minutes ago, BatDood said:

If you're using that as a gauge then you should re-evaluate that opinion. Anybody can log into alt accounts to boost the likes on a thread. They mean nothing.

 

If you had read through the previous posts made today you would have realized that it's not the rigs that are the issue. It's the blend files as ColonolNutty pointed out directly to which he can't access.

EA has no ownership over blend files. If a person incorporates them into their mod then so be it. The original post is misleading because it doesn't state the actual issue. The statement that "rigs are locked inside Wicked Whims" is dramatic at best.

 

And I hate to pop your balloon but it's not a monopoly when there are alternatives, as referenced by your statement:

"Some people prefer DD, i support Nutty but I like WW and that's why it's weird how Turbo would keep this limitation in."

 

I think you missed the point. It's not his choice that's in question where the subject of "choice" is concerned. It your choice and to try and say that you don't have one is a little weak.

of course they mean nothing. to you because you disagree with me. and you can easily check who liked a thread then do a simple detective's work to find out alts and whatnot.

the rigs AND the blend files are both the issue, and holding these files hostage would be basically equivalent of sims 4 studio team giving access to their tool only to chosen creators. Who needs a level field when you can just monopolize the field. That statement isn't dramatic, as they are and it's causing a whole load of trouble.

 

And i'd hate to pop your baloon but it is a monopoly if an alternative is being purposefully limited by the competitor in a drastic way.

Alternatives don't count against this argument if they're being purposefully limited as it's not a level field and it remains a monopoly.

 

I didn't miss the point, you're just misunderstanding everything and we could just as well find out in some time you might just be one of Turbo's patrons or friends.

If you weren't, why would you defend such ignorant and selfish behaviour?
Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything and nobody is asking Turbo to give away what he did for WW.

People are asking for free access to rigs and for limitations to not be imposed by WW.

As simple as that really.

Edited June 25, 2022 by BenjiThatFoxGuy

[Scorpio]

3 hours ago, ColonolNutty said:

It appears as though you are simply here to troll, since you haven't put a "like" on the second post to indicate your disagreement/disapproval. We could debate all day, but in the end, you haven't casted your vote, so what you say ultimately wouldn't matter toward the outcome.

  

There are no rules here that require me to vote and it's already been stated that the outcome won't change the decisions by Mod Creators.

I'm simply asking questions in a logical non-emotional format.

If you think I'm a troll that's on you not me. 

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

2 minutes ago, Scorpio said:

There are no rules here that require me to vote and it's already been stated that the outcome won't change the decisions by Mod Creators.

I'm simply asking questions in a logical non-emotional format.

If you think I'm a troll that's on you not me. 

I can see that Nutty is just trying to get some voluntary vote system going on to show Turbo what people want, and they called you a troll because you keep on asking questions. I can see you asking questions being valid, as I can see Nutty's focus on trying to get Turbo's attention. Stay cool guys it would be cool to get a reply and not get someone turn this into a flame war to make Turbo ignore it.

[BatDood]

11 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

People are asking for free access to rigs and for limitations to not be imposed by WW.

Asking for something doesn't put someone in a position where they are required to grant that request. If you don't get what you want then you have to face that disappointment.

 

12 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

the rigs AND the blend files are both the issue,

This is something that you should probably take up with ColonolNutty because by his own statements, the rigs can be accessed but the blend files can't.

 

17 minutes ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

If you weren't, why would you defend such ignorant and selfish behaviour?

It's not ignorant or selfish. If you were in someone's house and asked them if you could take their computer home with you because yours is broken, does that make them ignorant or selfish if they say no? Of course not because it's their property to do with as they see fit and making the assumption that they should hand it over is ignorant and selfish on the part of the person asking for it in the first place.

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

5 minutes ago, BatDood said:

Asking for something doesn't put someone in a position where they are required to grant that request. If you don't get what you want then you have to face that disappointment.

 

This is something that you should probably take up with ColonolNutty because by his own statements, the rigs can be accessed but the blend files can't.

 

It's not ignorant or selfish. If you were in someone's house and asked them if you could take their computer home with you because yours is broken, does that make them ignorant or selfish if they say no? Of course not because it's their property to do with as they see fit and making the assumption that they should hand it over is ignorant and selfish on the part of the person asking for it in the first place.

You don't need to explain this to me, I'm the person who rightfully harshly criticizes Turbo while underlining of course nobody can't force him to do anything! 

But if he won't, it's just proving his carelessness and imposing things on people.

There's so many cool projects here on LL killed by WW's imposed limitations which wouldn't be a thing were the rigs be separated. And once again you're missing the point. It's all about Turbo's carelessness. WW brings him money and it's about time WW became more modular and creating content for it wasn't so backwards.

It's my harsh response as WW's implementation is just outright excluding possibilities.

I'm not facing similar stupidies in the SFW mods world, simply because the rest of Sims 4 modding community is much much different. This is why so much valid criticism is being brought upon. It could be the same kinda ordeal and there's no proper explanation as to why does WW force me or anyone to use that one and only rig. It's just keeping things simple at expense of limiting possibilities.

All of you keep on trying to derail the thread, by saying "you don't like it boohoo" but miss the sole purpose which is a criticism, feedback and a proposition.

All we do is talk about why we're proposing something and you keep on reminding us we aren't entitled to it, just to make us look bad like the people who are trying to force someone to give us something.

Look at the beginning of this thread, these misunderstandings happened back then and Nutty gladly explained what is the exact issue with the rigs being integrated and unavailable.

 

[shorty943]

With the current situation and updates having broken so many other creators mods, both EA and WW updates, I tend to agree with CN on this point.

For a very long time I have been a user of WW, one of the few mods that make this silly game worth keeping up with. However with how so many others mods have been broken by recent EA and WW updates, other alternatives are looking like good ideas right now.

 

PS

CN, your own S4 Community Library seems to be broken badly since the latest updates too, and I use mods by others that use that library.

 

Keep up the good work and the fight.

[the0fromnexus]

3 hours ago, BenjiThatFoxGuy said:

custom bone layout for stuff like tail animation for anthros

Heeey now we're going somewhere! :3

 

*looks at patreon rules, giggles, and flips a tiny bird*

 

Quote

Multiples rigs will create desastrous conflicts and an immense confusion among users and creators

How so? Elaborate?

 

Well linking to anim packs and a penis model isn't so hard, i'm sure the same would work with a rig just fine. Users do figure out the first two. The WW troubleshooting pages are quite idiot-proof so that is good. It's a day and night difference from skyrim modding and yet people manage that too.

And are you implying that creators are incapable? Come on.

Edited June 25, 2022 by the0fromnexus
quoting across multiple forum pages is hard

[BenjiThatFoxGuy]

19 minutes ago, the0fromnexus said:

Heeey now we're going somewhere! :3

 

*looks at patreon rules, giggles, and flips a tiny bird*

Doesn't have to use the patreon builds haha. Also anthro bits for WW by Bernise are available for a pretty big while now ? 

Edited June 25, 2022 by BenjiThatFoxGuy