Repeated CTD upon saving

[Tlam99]

In this link posted by @Tiress is mentioned iNeed edits the leveled list what has been mentioned as reason for this.

 

[Q2R51]

23 minutes ago, alex77r4 said:

 

Go to your save game folder and rename the skse co-save file.

Open your game and load the saved game that not have skse co-save file.

You can get messages of error from some mods claiming about data lost but not worry because this is a simple test.

Try save your game and, if works, try load the new save game.

 

If all that works your problem is inside the skse co-save and ReSaver can not solve it.

Look what mods you have that store data in skse using PapyrusUtil or JContainers because some of them have bad data.

 

If you can not load your save game without the skse co-save, probably, the saved game is damaged but that is strange because ReSaver say the save game is correct.

 

 

Right... @-Caden- sadly the solution was short lived. I had closed Skyrim, and reopened it now via MO2 and SKSE. Loaded the newly made save that I had created by trying the player.kill workaround. Waited 30s, tried saving. Got an instant CTC.... so while the player.kill might perhaps temporarily fix smth while Skyrim runs, it isn't a stable/permanent solution. I guess @alex77r4 was onto something.

 

I tried your suggestion Alex, and I could load the game without issue, no warnings from missing data with the SKSE co-save file gone. But saving in game still gives the same instant CTD. So not sure what to think of that, since Fallrim tools found no errors. I've uploaded the save here, as I don't know much about the cleaner tools, perhaps I did something wrong while trying to find the issues.

 

Save257_9E5EB527_0_457272616E646972_Tamriel_010240_20210829213221_25_1.ess Save257_9E5EB527_0_457272616E646972_Tamriel_010240_20210829213221_25_1.skse

[Tlam99]

The Famous "Crash on Save" Bug
	--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	CTD occurs when saving your game
	Possible Relevant Objects: TESLevItem(FormId: xxxxxxxx, File: `Example.esp <- xxx.esp <- Skyrim.esm`)
	Callstack: mentions BGSSaveGameBuffer::unk_xxxxxx+xx somewhere
	*While this issue can arise from a leveled list issue, it can also occur from a save error that occured when trying to save the game during your playthrough. This happens from a lack of memory when trying to save causing a sort of loop that leads to a CTD. Once it occurs, it will keep on HAPPENING. This save is such a chronic and ongoing hassle in the community that it deserves a category of its own.
	MAIN FIX: I, HellLizard, as well as a couple of other testimonies have been investigating into the possibility of this crash stemming from a leveled list issue. Many people have claimed that deleting the leveled list using XEdit works, but, in my experience, this has caused more troubles and doesn't really fix the issue, especially if that leveled list is a vanilla one. However, modifying saves that list scripts that modify these leveled lists is a different method on its own. It has become clear that a couple of mods that change leveled list mid-game using scripts may contribute to this issue as well. Certain mods like LOTD: The Curators Companion(TCC) or INeed are known to modify certain leveled lists like spell tomes that could possibly be contributing to this crash. Specifically, it would add to the count for 2 of the spell tomes added by TCC until it reaches a certain amounts that causes the crash. Though this mod has been updated and this issue been rectified, I think it is important to be aware of possible long-term issues that are attributed to mods that modify leveled list mid-game improperly. Using ReSaver, look up the last 5 digits of the leveled item mentioned in the crash log(ex. A297A) and delete all mentions of it. I would make a backup save before doing this, should you decide to replace it. A couple of people states that this works(I can attest to this as well) and it would help if more people tried it for further confirmation. While the fixes below are still very much relevant, more information could help lead to understanding more about the nature of this crash. Below are some listed mods with this issue and will be updated accordingly when fixed:
	INeed
	ALTERNATIVE ROUTES: There are three OTHER ways to go about dealing with this issue. REVERT back to an older save that doesn't have this issue, WORKAROUNDS, or the SLIGHTLY PERMANENT FIX
	WORKAROUNDS: For most people, this is a way of dealing with the issue temporarily. However, this will only delay the crash for a short time and it will occur again sooner and with a vengeance.
	1st Method-Player.kill Method: This method is exactly as it is stated. You load your particular save. You then kill yourself(presumably by console command or yeeting off a cliff-your choice) and once you respawn, save your game. For your forseeable sitting playthrough, you should be able to continue to save without crashing. However, if you have been using this method to delay fixing this issue for quite some time, you could still crash after a cell change, death, sleeping, or exiting and entering back into the game.
	2nd Method-Load twice Method: This method has also seemed to work for many others and myself included. Simply load your savefile and once it has loaded, load it again from the start menu. This seems to temporarily end the loop like the first method but is also prone to the same issues.
	SLIGHTLY PERMANENT FIX: This seems to work and delays the issue indefinitely(at least for me for the last 50 hours). First and foremost, make sure you have a bashed patch created and enabled. Not having a bashed patch could cause and even exacerbate the issue. Look up tutorials on how to create one. First we need to direct ourselves to the save file for Skyrim. This is usually in the documents file under My Games. In it, you will find temp.ess files for saves that were attempted but CTD. These are created when the save manager is put in sort of a loop. DELETE ALL OF THOSE. You cannot convert them to an actual save file. Having these files will cause the CTD on save to occur more frequently. Once deleted, proceed to use one of the workarounds and this should solve the issue from happening again for a long time.
	PREVENTION ADVICE: To prevent this issue from happening, common consensus states it is wise to set the "SaveGameMaxSize" in "SSE Engine Fixes" ini(toml) file to true. I also recommend increase your minimum and maximum paging file size to a decent amount respectively in BethINI under Customs: Section-Papyrus. I personally use 1024 and 3072 respectively. This should help give a reasonable amount of memory to the game when it comes to running scripts. Due note, this is an individualized tweak that works for MY load order. I would always recommend making changes that would help fit yours as you not only have different hardware, but different mods as well. I also suggest getting rid of autosaves and quick saves as the saving procedure for these MAY be a bit different than regular saves(While this has not been documented, I err on the side of cautiousness. It would be nice if someone extensively tested and affirms to this theory once and for all). If you insist on having some sort of quicksave feature, I suggest enabling "Regular Quicksaves" in SSE Engine Fixes that would make the quicksave hotkey make a new save each time. Make sure, however, to regularly delete old saves that you might not load in your playthrough. Another suggestion that I have heard from many people is to set SaveGameMaxSize to true in SSE Engine Fixes(This, however, should already be enabled but verification won't hurt). Lastly, a reasonable suggestion that goes along with my recommendation for modifying the pagefile size is modifying fUpdateBudgetMS. This is, again, a change that should be personalized and adhere to the performance your hardware is presenting. Here is a statement from tattwood that addresses this nicely: "the objective for the choice of value for fUpdateBudgetMS should be:
	1. Small enough to not take away from other game processes, and spread script processing over several game frames (thus reducing stutter during periods of high game activity).
	2. Large enough so that all scripts are processed relatively quickly (over a few seconds maximum) thus emptying the script queue, otherwise a backlog will build up which destabilizes your game."
	With any of these changes, make sure that no other mod is modifying the same thing. Mods like SchakenFM or SSE Display Tweaks attempt to modify these settings.

[alex77r4]

6 minutes ago, Q2R51 said:

But saving in game still gives the same instant CTD.

 

Seems that Net Script Framework give the best possible info.

Searching inside the save game for the bad leveled list show a possible problem with iNeed when change the leveled list.:

Spoiler

 

Try load your save game, go to the MCM of iNeed and try make a Reset.

I iNeed not have a Reset function, i not know because i always use Realistic Needs, try disable Ineed.

 

Play one minute or two, make fast travel some times, open some doors with loading screens and try save.

If you get CTD again, bad lucky, the only posibility is make a surgeon operation that is not garanteed and nobody, except me, want make it.

 

 

 

[Tlam99]

Delete with resaver this id causing the crash.

 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Q2R51 said:

 

 

Right... @-Caden- sadly the solution was short lived. I had closed Skyrim, and reopened it now via MO2 and SKSE. Loaded the newly made save that I had created by trying the player.kill workaround. Waited 30s, tried saving. Got an instant CTC.... so while the player.kill might perhaps temporarily fix smth while Skyrim runs, it isn't a stable/permanent solution. I guess @alex77r4 was onto something.

 

I tried your suggestion Alex, and I could load the game without issue, no warnings from missing data with the SKSE co-save file gone. But saving in game still gives the same instant CTD. So not sure what to think of that, since Fallrim tools found no errors. I've uploaded the save here, as I don't know much about the cleaner tools, perhaps I did something wrong while trying to find the issues.

 

Save257_9E5EB527_0_457272616E646972_Tamriel_010240_20210829213221_25_1.ess 7.62 MB · 3 downloads Save257_9E5EB527_0_457272616E646972_Tamriel_010240_20210829213221_25_1.skse 60.7 kB · 1 download

It could also be that this works in LE, might not have the same effect in SE

[Q2R51]

41 minutes ago, T-lam said:

Delete with resaver this id causing the crash.

 

 

I had read through that github list of suggestions. I admit I'm a bit weary of deleting id's from the save file, since I don't understand what exactly it does and how it might (negatively) effect the integrity of the file. But if the error returns, I might have no other option than to try it.

 

For now I've tried disabling iNeed in the MCM menu. I verified that this worked; I had some diseases that were affecting me (might have contributed to the save CTD as well?). Once I disabled iNeed, those were gone. Weirdly enough I did still have the statuses of 'well sated, well hydrated, well rested'. I thought only iNeed added those. I did some fast travelling, which normally would impact the passing of time and hence the degeneration of those statuses, but they seemed to be stable. Probably a relic of iNeed in the save/scripts, without it actively changing?

 

Either way, I played around a bit with iNeed off, I made a save and had no issue. Then I re-enabled iNeed, played a bit, loaded a new cell or two, fast travelled and made a save. No issue. I then 'waited' in game, so that I could test whether or not the statuses degenerated, and they did; I became hungry etc. and my food got stale. I saved again in a new file, without issue. I then shut down the game, restarted it, opened the last save and made a new save: also without CTD (this is the point where even if 'fixed' like with the player.kill command the bug would return, when restarting Skyrim entirely).

 

So for now it seems just disabling and re-enabling iNeed might have done the trick? Question will be for how long; I'll try playing again tomorrow and the coming days to see how it advances. Should it reappear I'll report here and try deleting the troublesome ID (if anyone could explain to me what exactly that does and how it impacts the save/scripts running, that would be helpful - will the game just recreate those IDs, will it be potentially missing a vital part causing more crashes in the future, ...).

 

PS: I had also found this about CTDs on save and iNeed: 

Spoiler

 

 

 I've tried it (before I tried any of the above) by removing my old saves and renaming the last good save to number 22. But it didn't work, CTDs were still there.

 

 

UPDATE: seems what I did is indeed one of the suggested fixes in the iNeed Nexus Forum posts as well: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/19390?tab=posts&BH=0

I've also seen that 'snquestscript' mentioned that Alex highlighted above; there is a potential fix that's still being tested. I could manually integrate it but since it's still 'experimental' and currently my game works, I'll refrain from doing so. I'll keep an eye on the Nexus for if and when iNeed gets updated to include the fix, if it turns out to be the right one. Fingers crossed I just won't have any issues anymore for a good while.

 

Either way a big thank you to everybody for pitching in and helping me find solutions. Let's hope you won't hear from me again about this issue.

[Tlam99]

there is no risk changing a save, just make a backup before.

 

Deleting it forces the engine to create it new, without bug caused by script lags

[alex77r4]

23 minutes ago, Q2R51 said:

I had read through that github list of suggestions. I admit I'm a bit weary of deleting id's from the save file, since I don't understand what exactly it does and how it might (negatively) effect the integrity of the file. But if the error returns, I might have no other option than to try it.

 

That is the surgeon operation about i talk and is always the last resort because not have any guaranty about the results.

A lot of times the game can regenerate the deleted data whitout any problem, others times make CTD when load, others times break the mods or the game... Nobody know the result until try it and look what happen.

 

23 minutes ago, Q2R51 said:

Either way, I played around a bit with iNeed off, I made a save and had no issue. Then I re-enabled iNeed, played a bit, loaded a new cell or two, fast travelled and made a save. No issue. I then 'waited' in game, so that I could test whether or not the statuses degenerated, and they did; I became hungry etc. and my food got stale. I saved again in a new file, without issue. I then shut down the game, restarted it, opened the last save and made a new save: also without CTD

 

Well, clearly a problem with iNeed that has been solved by simply disable and enable iNeed.

Why show the problem? Ask to the developer.

Can happen again? Of course. If happen one time can happen two.

How prevent it? Not use iNeed.

 

Probably, the problem was not caused by the thing made. Was caused by the exact moment when iNeed make it.

Simply you have bad lucky and one mod, iNeed this time, make some bad thing in a bad moment.

[anjenthedog]

the killplayer "solution" has never worked for me. Not even once during the past ~3 years I've been playing SE. That's why if Fallrim doesn't do it, I backpeddle to previous saves (if I hadn't just installed a mod and encountered it, in which case I dump the new mod first)

[Grey Cloud]

3 hours ago, T-lam said:

Will not discuss this, as it's a clear case for @Grey Cloud

 

Sorry, you have lost me there. ?