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What do you want to see next in DFC?


Lupine00

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What do you want to see next in DFC?  

254 members have voted

  1. 1. What changes/features do you most want to see next in DFC?

    • New "games", where the follower takes advantage of you in bondage and dominates or humiliates you.
      135
    • Changes to deal mechanics so "classic" deals are more flexible and clash less with modular deals.
      38
    • Updated "LDC" and DD5.X support.
      51
    • "Official" SSE version.
      76
    • More deals and rules.
      93
    • More follower comments and dialog based on your situation/willpower.
      88
    • Improved DFC slavery.
      69
    • More follower personality features, such as personality driven deal selection or comments based on the follower personality.
      83
    • More interactions between multiple followers. Followers ganging up on you, etc.
      71
    • More follower-driven goals, such as the follower setting quest targets, dungeons they want to loot, inns they want to visit, etc.
      117

This poll is closed to new votes

 

Pick as many options as you like, but it counts less if you pick more things.

 

Currently a few voices on the forum tend to set the direction for development.

What do people think is most important to do next?

 

You might want to look at the Roadmap for more detail on what these different things could look like.

 

The feature for letting followers push deals more aggressively is a "done deal", no point voting on that.

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I fall pretty heavily into the 'more content category.  I have been finding myself with less time to play kink Skyrim lately but I know for sure I will come back to it. 

 

I am currently most interested in high quality, low quantity experiences. Short stories, and quests and the like that offer a high quality first few experiences and not necessary the procedural stuff that holds value out to the 100th playthrough.  Things like follower personalities and longer form games have a lot of appeal.

 

New deals and rules.  I fell in love with DFC for this feature. More of that is obviously amazing, I can tolerate a near unlimited amount of other shortfalls in exchange for this.

 

I have few performance/reliability complaints. 

 

I have no interest in slavery handoffs.  I usually end my games at the total enslavement step.

 

My most recent (distantly recent) experience I did notice more the issue of deal conflicts.  I was always a fan of the more coherent logical progression of the classic deals, but after reading your recent post I think I've come around to the belief that dumping the old system is best.

 

There is no vote for it but from narrative perspective I would like more early game content. My game setup usually has a good stretch of early game where I am "waiting" for boredom to pile up and/or some financial disaster to cause DF to kick in.  Some stuff for the follower to do during this stretch would be great.  Boredom generator events, events that change resource generation/consumption (gold, will, boredom ect.) gameplay options for short term benefit at long term cost, follower personality "intro quests" that sort of thing.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Darkwing241 said:

I am currently most interested in high quality, low quantity experiences.

 

The Devious Followers 2021 Roadmap has a fairly narrow idea of what might be done, but there's no law that says that can't be changed.

 

When it comes to content, there's a wide open space of possibility.

 

OTOH, things in the roadmap are mostly stuff people asked for in some form, or that I happen to be interested in for my own game.

 

The rest of 2.14.X is mostly high-value-low-effort fixes to things that are annoying right now. That should mostly all happen.

 

2.15.X looks like a lot of boring code changes that nobody really cares about until something is broken for them. Though maybe willpower based payment reduction is interesting?

2.16.X is only marginally better, as it's all "quality of life" stuff to make things a bit more immersive and give the player more options.

 

There's a lack of new games there, and that might be something it would be more fun to change.

I get quite bored of just fixing stuff too.

 

 

The roadmap does have quiet a few deal/rule suggestions, and there's scope to add more ideas there.

If deals come up as a "thing" probably should try a poll on that too, to see what is most exciting.

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13 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

**SNIP**

There is no vote for it but from narrative perspective I would like more early game content. My game setup usually has a good stretch of early game where I am "waiting" for boredom to pile up and/or some financial disaster to cause DF to kick in.  Some stuff for the follower to do during this stretch would be great.  Boredom generator events, events that change resource generation/consumption (gold, will, boredom ect.) gameplay options for short term benefit at long term cost, follower personality "intro quests" that sort of thing.

 

 

Made me think of the kids saying "Are we there yet?"

Maybe triggers based on learning new skills, since a lot of that is early game stuff (at least in my pt's):

"You better not be planning on me carrying all those potions you're making."

"Oh goodie, more useless weapons."

"By the Divines, stick an arrow in me if you stop to gather more plants!" Though, that might be harder to implement.

"Seriously, you hired me so you could sell cabbages?"

"If you're so into enchanting, how come I'm so bored?"

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14 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

There is no vote for it but from narrative perspective I would like more early game content. My game setup usually has a good stretch of early game where I am "waiting" for boredom to pile up and/or some financial disaster to cause DF to kick in.  Some stuff for the follower to do during this stretch would be great.  Boredom generator events, events that change resource generation/consumption (gold, will, boredom ect.) gameplay options for short term benefit at long term cost, follower personality "intro quests" that sort of thing.

 

 

In the same vein, I often find myself lacking ways to initiate sex that aren't too lovey-dovey (Eager NPCS), too interrupting (defeat mods), or just not something a presumably heroic character would do before being broken (prostitution).

 

Therefore I often wish there was some way to attempt to have sex with your DF. Perhaps something like the sex deal, but instead something you could always attempt. Probably not something you would succeed at very often, and perhaps usually with some sort of negative side effect (loss of willpower, added deal or debt, etc.) Of course the tone of their response would have to vary at least depending on Willpower, and perhaps even by deal count.

 

I'm almost surprised I haven't seen something like this mentioned more, but I guess most people either use one of the options I listed above or simply wait until they get a good selection of deals.

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What sets DFC apart from Submissive Lola is the blackmail and more immersive start. I think it'd be interesting to see this expanded. Right now, DFC generally starts with you getting into debt, but there could be other ways the follower gets you into compromising situations or slowly breaks down your will: truth or dare games, drugging you, fake quests that leave you in compromising situations with people who've secretly bribed the follower for the help, etc. 

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For me the big ticket items are:

  • Follower personalities (adds replay, makes being traded between followers interesting).
  • Follower driven goals (nothing feels like being under control of someone else than having to account for their goals). I could see the follower making a demand on what to do, and adding boredom/ debt if too much time passes before it's achieved.
  • Multiple follower interactions (because I often play with more than one follower). This is potentially a lot of work depending how you want to go about it and how deep you want to go. The basic question, of course, is whether the additional followers are in on exploiting you or whether they are being exploited too. I could see lots of fun having another follower struggle alongside the PC. But it's also potentially pretty interesting to have the PC be exploited by a group of people.
  • SSE version, because I play SSE.

I mean, everything on the list is great and In want it all. But those three are what I'd personally prioritize.

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Apologies for the long post. I agree with most of the posters above; TLDR: flavored, low-impact but theme-setting introduction quests and early-stage low-impact games with absurd, not-quite-disregardable justifications.

Spoiler

 

For me, the greatest potential future strength and already present strength of DFC lies in polishing the smooth, gradual transition of stages on the downward spiral of the power exchange with all the small details, each transition having some flavored justification by the follower, no matter how absurd it is. The transitions between the lower-to-lowest stages of the spiral have plenty of justifications already, and the follower doesn't have to be very creative to extend their manipulative grip on the player: locked gear, lots of deals, high debt, low willpower, gold control, intimidation. But there's a lack of justifications of the follower to keep the player from noticing where things are heading in the early stage transitions of the power exchange, apart from a bland 'accruing debt'.

 

Because of this, it feels as if there's fewer 'lighthearted to medium' content in general, regardless of whether that's accurate. That's precisely where the follower's supposed 'manipulative personality' could shine the most - the parts where they actually have to make up semi-believable reasons to a somewhat-still-sceptical player who can still say 'that's nonsense', and tell stories the player can't entirely disregard as 'made-up'. It's also the section where the differences between basic follower relationships (spouse, thane, mercenary, guildmember_or_ally) can be demonstrated the clearest and easiest, just by adding a simple differently flavored justification, a single dialogue line to a request according to the relationship- after all, the further down the power exchange the player gets, the less the follower has to justify, well, anything in their relation. At that point, the differences between follower archetypes are only visible in their demands - different from the start, where their initial relationship type to the player defines which explanations - and events - they can pull off. That's only half of the 'archetype' story; the latter and more juicy half (that most players seem to skip to, straight over the early debt stages), but still.

 

The attention to detail put into DFC is already amazing. But it feels as if there's less intermediate steps of little content pieces in the early-to-middle grounds where the player slowly loses control, too slow to notice, but still has some initiative and willpower, requiring the follower to be quite creative in their justifications, altering the relationship from 'random acquaintance' down to 'eye-level', and then further. And while some settings go with a heavy-handed 'player is a weak failure' already as the starting point, there is no reason for DFC to limit its focus almost exclusively on this part of the spiral, starting already slightly below eye-level with the follower. Some extra steps on the way between the feelings of 'Whatever, I hired you' and 'Your demands get more bothersome by the day!' can go a long way in fixing this impression of content balance. Just adding some more of the lighter content as smoother steps on the early curve, making it feel equally filled as the tons of more heavy-handed content lower down the spiral that's already there: That could make DFC equally enjoyable for those focusing mostly on lighter stages and themes, and those that love the humiliating extremes, in my opinion.

 

It has already been discussed that nothing stops DFC from serving a wide range of settings regarding the player's relationship to the world, from SexlabSurvival to SLola, and beyond - it just needs to show that it already has all the pieces in place. Some ideas have already been suggested, see other posts and the first line of this post. I'll post some more detailled ideas in the actual mod thread.

 


EDIT: added spoiler to keep post short on the page.

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7 hours ago, Aldid said:

Therefore I often wish there was some way to attempt to have sex with your DF. Perhaps something like the sex deal, but instead something you could always attempt. Probably not something you would succeed at very often, and perhaps usually with some sort of negative side effect (loss of willpower, added deal or debt, etc.) Of course the tone of their response would have to vary at least depending on Willpower, and perhaps even by deal count.

This is in the existing roadmap as a 2.16.X item, so it's been considered, just not given a high priority.

If this was done to be integrated with follower-personalities, it would be better than just a generic feature.

 

 

22 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

My game setup usually has a good stretch of early game where I am "waiting" for boredom to pile up and/or some financial disaster to cause DF to kick in.  Some stuff for the follower to do during this stretch would be great.  Boredom generator events, events that change resource generation/consumption (gold, will, boredom ect.) gameplay options for short term benefit at long term cost, follower personality "intro quests" that sort of thing.

Boredom, as it stands is a very basic mechanic. I think people expect more of it, but it was something I originally added to my "custom" DF back in the 1.X era, that was just there to try and auto-balance debt-pressure.

 

The long-standing pain with DF was that you could never get the daily payments quite right. Too low, and you never had any trouble. Too high, and it felt stupidly impossible. Combined with the older Base + X * Level price mechanic, and you tended to either "price into" or "price out of" peril as you levelled. Usually it was the latter, with DF becoming impotent at higher levels unless you changed the costs repeatedly. If you tried to price for those levels initially it would be impossible, because earning capacity is not linear with level, and that's even worse with SLS in your game. When you're constantly tweaking your payments in the MCM, it feels like you are deciding to be in trouble or not, it's no longer a game.

 

So, I added a mechanism to my own game - no deals means you're doing fine, increase boredom. In my original implementation boredom was a chance to suddenly impose a big chunk of debt "out of nowhere" ... which was unpredictable and made you constantly unsure when it might happen. The downside was that it was not particularly immersive. It didn't matter because it was just for me.

 

Since boredom has been in, people have generally expected it to be more sophisticated. They expect to see it vary more organically (currently it just resets to zero if anything remotely interesting happens) and they expect it to have pervasive effects. Currently, it just modifies your discount, potentially cancelling it, or turning it into a penalty.

 

As things are, there aren't even quite enough impacts from willpower, so boredom is really far behind.

Also, trying to create subtle bias to outcomes in dialogs is bordering on impossible.

 

For boredom (and to a lesser extent willpower) to have more interesting consequences, the consequences have to be created as fresh content that was designed to account for such variables.

 

When a scene or game occurs rarely, and there are different variants for willpower, a player may never even realize. They play it with a willpower in a certain range, and if they ever see that scene again, there's a fair chance they have the same willpower the second time around. Even if they don't, and it's different, they may not appreciate that it's willpower that's making the difference. It's like when people ask on the forum why they are "suddenly" calling their follower "master"... They lost all their willpower and didn't notice.

 

 

Early game content seems like it might be the wrong name... New follower content seems more flexible as a concept. It would be good to have some things the follower can do before you build up a debt, or if you simply aren't building up a debt. Is it sufficient to simply use boredom for that? Possibly.

 

6 hours ago, regretably said:

but there could be other ways the follower gets you into compromising situations or slowly breaks down your will: truth or dare games, drugging you, fake quests that leave you in compromising situations with people who've secretly bribed the follower for the help, etc. 

Some of this I have in my game idea list already, but fake quests ... any specific ideas?

 

 

@jammingserver1, thanks for a great post. It brings back a lot of the thoughts I had about DF in its earlier days. The problem is when you get stuck in the code base, it's easy to become bogged down in "oh so many problems here", and to end up making changes that were driven by easy ways to fix broken stuff, or minor enhancements that can be added to something existing, rather than the big experience.

Spoiler

 

The core logic of DFC is purely reactive. There isn't a single function that codes the follower's mind-state, nor is there state for it beyond lives and boredom. There are a few stats on the PC: willpower, resistance, fatigue, and between, there's debt, and all the limits and rates. The follower simply fires dialogs that are enabled depending on conditions, randomly, from the available set, or responds to player dialog. Working within that framework, it's hard to create a sense of story, or even deliver events on a suitable schedule. That's something that needs to change, and I'm evolving my thinking on how it should be improved.

 

The games use that same model. If you match the conditions, it can happen randomly (and probably will, depending on the cooldown) and all the logic is in those simple conditions.

 

I wouldn't have made a mod that works this way. You can see my preferred approach in the updated deal system and licensing, where the dialog is controlled by quest scripting and the dialog conditions are trivial checks against a state variable that was computed elsewhere - removing the limits imposed by reliance on dialog conditions.

 

I see a lot of mods constrained by driving everything through dialog conditions and what can be put in a dialog condition (and the hard dependencies they require on factions, keywords, etc), and it's a common pattern that the original DF followed consistently. I want to get away from that, but that's where things are now, for the most part.

 

The more I do on DFC, the more I am putting into a code-base that is overdue replacement. One thing is for sure, if I did a DFC 3.0 it would be its own follower framework and would not support or even be compatible with other frameworks. That might turn a few people off, but it would remove a huge amount of complexity while making the multi-follower scenario a first-class experience. For now, the path is gradual fixing and refactoring of 2.0, with major new features going into their own quests as much as possible.

 

 

I'm going to keep watching the votes. 

Also, interested to see the comments. I want all this stuff too, but can only do things at my slow rate.

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7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

This is in the existing roadmap as a 2.16.X item, so it's been considered, just not given a high priority.

If this was done to be integrated with follower-personalities, it would be better than just a generic feature.

Oh, sorry. It's been a while since I read it, so I must have missed it.

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This is probably pushing the edges of the scope of your mod, but I'd love it if this mod was aware of other complex follower behavior (Joyful Followers comes to mind) and only offers the starting dialogue for DFC if a particular follower isn't already "enrolled" in a similar mod. Of course, I'd want the other mods to have the same behavior towards followers enrolled in DFC, but that's definitely out of scope for DFC.

 

Anyway, food for thought - I won't complain if more substantive features like followers suggesting destinations takes priority. I'm sure the population of players who like to run these kind of mods in parallel is fairly small.

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On 5/12/2021 at 10:53 PM, gregaaz said:

Of course, I'd want the other mods to have the same behavior towards followers enrolled in DFC, but that's definitely out of scope for DFC.

There's just no point wasting effort automating this further than I already have.

 

You can control which followers will be Devious already in the MCM, as a block, or individually.

There are also API features that let a mod mark its followers out of bounds for DFC.

So, it's possible for those mods to respect DFC, if they care to, and DFC has a practical enough way to protect other mods.

 

There's also scope for mods to automate this dynamically; so DCL could automatically control Chloe eligibility, or flip Sasha devious if you aren't nice enough to her.

The "highly relevant" SLTR integration is only of interest to a few, and I've made enough trouble for myself with follower frameworks.

The JF author knows very well that DFC exists, and has existed since before there was a trace of JF. So if they want to integrate, the facilities are there for them.

 

I don't see any advantage to cluttering the MCM with extra options for this mod or that mod when there's already a good solution.

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:40 PM, Lupine00 said:

Some of this I have in my game idea list already, but fake quests ... any specific ideas?

I'm not thinking so much fake quests, but what if there is a quest where you get captured and go unconscious, you wake up and see that your follower has finished the fight, and now you owe her your life.  And she intends to make sure you stay around to pay that debt.

 

This may or may not have been arranged by the follower...

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6 hours ago, Jayleia said:

I'm not thinking so much fake quests, but what if there is a quest where you get captured and go unconscious, you wake up and see that your follower has finished the fight, and now you owe her your life.  And she intends to make sure you stay around to pay that debt.

 

This may or may not have been arranged by the follower...

 

This sounds a bit like it could be pre-DFC event that puts you immediately into DFC debt (like an SS++ outcome).

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:40 PM, Lupine00 said:

Some of this I have in my game idea list already, but fake quests ... any specific ideas?

Simple would just be the follower claiming to have gotten a miscellaneous quest, but when they arrive on the scene, they are force-greeted by ambushers, who demand a ludicrous bribe for release. Dragonborn can't pay and is thrown in a cage.  Follower arrives, releases, claims he/she paid bribe, then adds debt.

 

More elaborate:

  • Follower steals gold or items while asleep, claims to have spotted someone sneaking out with the items. They follow clues to contacts (fake: follower's friends), each of whom requires the Dragonborn to choose: do something compromising OR pay bribe OR let Follower pay bribe (debt). They finally reach a "hideout" that's an ambush; Dragonborn knocked out and locked up. Follower "bribes" ambushers to let Dragonborn go, then adds as debt.
  • Follower claims to have a lead on a stolen item to recover for a noble. The item is not actually stolen, so Dragonborn is the one stealing it. She is ambushed by (fake) guards and held prisoner. Follower shows up, says he's gotten her released, but claims s/he had to pay huge bribe, adds as debt.
  • Follower asks Dragonborn for favor: pose as girlfriend when meeting old friends/parents/whatever. Friends/parents/whatever turn out to be scary, claim Dragonborn is scam artist after Follower's inheritance, demand proof that "girlfriend" is loyal/fun/genuine. Dragonborn forced into compromising positions, or to reveal truth, which enrages Follower, who adds debt.
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On 5/14/2021 at 1:52 PM, regretably said:

Follower steals gold or items while asleep, claims to have spotted someone sneaking out with the items. They follow clues to contacts (fake: follower's friends), each of whom requires the Dragonborn to choose: do something compromising OR pay bribe OR let Follower pay bribe (debt). They finally reach a "hideout" that's an ambush; Dragonborn knocked out and locked up. Follower "bribes" ambushers to let Dragonborn go, then adds as debt.

 

I like this idea. Follower could simply say lets ask people around town if they saw anything suspicious (could just add an option when talking to anyone in the town to ask if they saw anything). Then they have a few options: pay money, do a "favor" etc. The responses could just simply lead you to talk to a certain npc in town which has you go to a bandit hideout to recover your things (just like when you ask an inn keeper if there is any leads on work). From there it could be a simple loot your things from the chest, or maybe its trapped? Not too sure about how to end it really.

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In general I just love having less control over what my character has the freedom to do so anything in the direction of that last point is great in my eyes. And like I have mentioned in other posts I would love to see some progression towards bondage through dungeon events.

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I have noticed something in Extensible Follower Framework (EFF) that allows for a setting and clearing of a follower's home location. This could be part of a deal which allows the player character, to sell home(s) which Devious Follower then owns. As such one of those sold home(s) can potentially be set using, what I discovered as a property where the follower lives, with the PC (either before and during enslavement).

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On 9/1/2021 at 1:06 AM, Leoosp said:

I have noticed something in Extensible Follower Framework (EFF) that allows for a setting and clearing of a follower's home location. This could be part of a deal which allows the player character, to sell home(s) which Devious Follower then owns. As such one of those sold home(s) can potentially be set using, what I discovered as a property where the follower lives, with the PC (either before and during enslavement).

 

Being able to trade your home(s) to the follower in exchange for debt relief would be great, and I think it would be popular. One problem is that SLS likes to evict you, so it would need some research to work around that.

 

Presumably, once a follower owns the home, you can't be evicted - or they can't - but they might decide you need to pay rent to stay there, or meet other highly arbitrary conditions, such as acting as their pet if you want to enter. Probably one place where the pet-suit wouldn't be too bad, as the follower could use very carefully selected sex animations to take advantage of the PC.

 

You could also get free drinks - from your pet bowl, and free food, as long as you don't mind eating it from a bowl on the floor.

Other ideas:

  • A sleeping location at the foot of the follower's bed.
  • An alchemy station that the follower uses to brew potions the PC is forced to drink.
  • Other humiliating outfits you can wear inside besides the pet suit.
  • A chest where you can store things, but the follower can dip into it, to sell or use the items.
  • Integration with the pre-existing idea of being the follower's maid.

Lots of work to do that, but it's fun to imagine.

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It's pretty clear that despite a broad spread of voting, it's "games" and follower driven behavior that have most interest.

 

Ideas like the theft-scam fall under games, as do other scams, such as fake quests, dungeon trips that turn out to be shakedowns, etc.

 

The best games are usually the ones that combine putting the PC in a lot of devices, then making them have a lot of sex - it destroys so much willpower - and if that scenario also has a fetish fantasy associated with it, all the better.

 

I'm thinking that there are some more easy things to do there, and beyond that, some harder ones, involving quest oriented content.

 

A way to join this up with a general system for follower-driven dungeoneering - probably with bonus items in boss chests that are double-edged in some interesting way - is something I'm thinking about.

 

And ... yes I am thinking about DFC again ... but I will still, definitely, put out an update to SLAX first, which will have some feature that will have interesting synergy with DFC - or any other mod that has a lot of sex, or chastity items.

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Good to see you around @Lupine00, looking forward to any updates you put out :)

 

Re: the "selling your home" to a DFC follower - it's definitely fun imagining. Any thoughts on what would happen if you managed to pay off your follower while they had your home? Would going to the home function as a "now you're back with me" trap? Or would it be "buying back the home is a prerequisite for escaping the deal" kind of thing?

 

Fun to think about :) 

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9 hours ago, Anunya said:

Good to see you around @Lupine00, looking forward to any updates you put out :)

 

Re: the "selling your home" to a DFC follower - it's definitely fun imagining. Any thoughts on what would happen if you managed to pay off your follower while they had your home? Would going to the home function as a "now you're back with me" trap? Or would it be "buying back the home is a prerequisite for escaping the deal" kind of thing?

 

Fun to think about :) 

I feel like buying the house back shouldn't be a requirement for dismissal. Partly because it's just something your follower owns now, and partly because it would get incredibly expensive.

 

I adore the idea of being forced to interact with your former tormentor in order to get your house back, with some humiliating consequences for old times' sake. The only problem being that you could just buy another house, I guess. Perhaps other homes are suddenly more expensive for "unrelated" reasons?

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On 11/11/2021 at 5:57 PM, Anunya said:

Fun to think about

Devious Landlords ... now there's something else fun to think about.

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4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Devious Landlords ... now there's something else fun to think about.

 

I recently read a story a bit along those lines....

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@Lupine00 Using the API of the continuation of Last Seed - Primary Needs Wellness Disease at Skyrim Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com) to allow for the functions, to handle follower's needs. As well as player character's health and other needs, for instance managing their food and/or drink for them, as well as possibly using it as a punishment. Also possible to handle diseases through it as well, such as having events or scenes when such events happen.

 

Also Last Seed also integrates tightly with Campfire and Frostfall 3 enabling certain features to be available with them present concurrently.

Edited by Leoosp
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