Facial Expressions: Why don't we have one as extensive as Skyrim yet?

[Arrow and the Knee]

Just curious, not placing blame/asking people to make it. I'd just like to know the limitations behind Fo4 that is making it harder to develop

[Guest]

Missing the equivalent of MFGConsole?

[VonHelton]

Some of pipers mouth movements are downright CREEPY!! I wasn't gonna say anything, but you brought up the topic, so........

 

!!!

 

 

[Arrow and the Knee]

Missing the equivalent of MFGConsole?

Is there no equivalent, or grounds for an equivalent thats found in Fo4? 

 

Some of pipers mouth movements are downright CREEPY!! I wasn't gonna say anything, but you brought up the topic, so........

 

!!!

I've noticed and chose to ignore it as much as possible....until this moment. Would be nice to have more facial animation mods, though I'm not quite sure how long it took Skyrim to develop such features. I've only been stalking the Bethesda modding scene since early-to-mid 2014, where a good portion of these mods were already out

[Nevtelenseg]

Some of pipers mouth movements are downright CREEPY!! I wasn't gonna say anything, but you brought up the topic, so........

 

!!!

Just Piper? I put facemasks and full-face helmets just to hide the hideous "talking animations".

I really wonder how nobody told them after the very first game trailer how awkward the actors during the conversations!

[VonHelton]

Some of those smiles look like the Joker.........No bullshit.

 

!!!

 

 

[Vuulgar]

I kinda feel like some of the mouth issues are lighting issues too. There seems to be light from inside the head shining behind the teeth and lips accentuating the strange look of smiles.

[VonHelton]

I kinda feel like some of the mouth issues are lighting issues too. There seems to be light from inside the head shining behind the teeth and lips accentuating the strange look of smiles.

 

I dunno......All I know is that the smile Piper made when we first go into Diamond City creeped me the fuck out!!

[Guest]

I could be wrong but I thought the reason was because we lack tools like Race Menu or ECE where users were able to directly modify facial morphs? I'm not versed in Skyrim modding but facial expressions were mostly done through there correct?

[ongwk733]

I could be wrong but I thought the reason was because we lack tools like Race Menu or ECE where users were able to directly modify facial morphs? I'm not versed in Skyrim modding but facial expressions were mostly done through there correct?

 

While true that RaceMenu and ECE had functionality to give a character facial expressions, they were permanently in that expression and still based on the game's MFG system, which can be controlled in console to give characters emotions and facial expressions temporarily for screenshot/roleplaying purposes.

 

The MFG has console commands that directly control aspects of a player/NPC's face like:

 

'mfg expression 2 100' >>>>>> the '2' is the happy emotion from a list of preset emotions in mfg and the '100' is the intensity of the emotion.

 

'mfg phoneme 0 50' >>>>> phoneme is the part of mfg that controls the mouth. Here, the '0' represents a certain mouth position (specifically the 'Aah' which is just an open mouth.) from a list of preset mouth positions. The '50' once again means intensity, so the character will be opening their mouth wide, but not as much as if it were '100'.

 

'mfg modifier 11 100' >>>>>> modifier is the part that modifies eye/brow movements. 'modifier 11' controls upward movement of the eyes, so '100' intensity has the character looking as high as they can.

 

 

With Racemenu and ECE, they directly implement the mfg console's functionality into character creation and give your player that expression permanently.

 

 

 

Edit:

Forgot to say, AFAIK since the last time I played FO4, there doesn't seem to be any mfg console-equivalent that would give a similar control of facial expressions over characters. The only mods I've seen then were a preset list of expressions that were entered into console, but no fine adjustment of eye direction or whatever.

[Arrow and the Knee]

 

I could be wrong but I thought the reason was because we lack tools like Race Menu or ECE where users were able to directly modify facial morphs? I'm not versed in Skyrim modding but facial expressions were mostly done through there correct?

 

While true that RaceMenu and ECE had functionality to give a character facial expressions, they were permanently in that expression and still based on the game's MFG system, which can be controlled in console to give characters emotions and facial expressions temporarily for screenshot/roleplaying purposes.

 

The MFG has console commands that directly control aspects of a player/NPC's face like:

 

'mfg expression 2 100' >>>>>> the '2' is the happy emotion from a list of preset emotions in mfg and the '100' is the intensity of the emotion.

 

'mfg phoneme 0 50' >>>>> phoneme is the part of mfg that controls the mouth. Here, the '0' represents a certain mouth position (specifically the 'Aah' which is just an open mouth.) from a list of preset mouth positions. The '50' once again means intensity, so the character will be opening their mouth wide, but not as much as if it were '100'.

 

'mfg modifier 11 100' >>>>>> modifier is the part that modifies eye/brow movements. 'modifier 11' controls upward movement of the eyes, so '100' intensity has the character looking as high as they can.

 

 

With Racemenu and ECE, they directly implement the mfg console's functionality into character creation and give your player that expression permanently.

 

 

 

Edit:

Forgot to say, AFAIK since the last time I played FO4, there doesn't seem to be any mfg console-equivalent that would give a similar control of facial expressions over characters. The only mods I've seen then were a preset list of expressions that were entered into console, but no fine adjustment of eye direction or whatever.

 

 

 

I could be wrong but I thought the reason was because we lack tools like Race Menu or ECE where users were able to directly modify facial morphs? I'm not versed in Skyrim modding but facial expressions were mostly done through there correct?

 

So is that to say that the expression mods included with pose packages on the nexus isn't a reliable foundation for exploring expression editing?

 

I understand you're limited to the emotion-expressions in that mod -A.K.A, the base game- but it sounds to me that it's almost similar to picking and choosing expressions to skyrim, albeit having less control over expression intensity and less options over what to tweak (eye position, mouth open, smile/frown, etc.) without the use for a racemenu equivalent. And even then, would it be hard to incorporate it into LooksMenu?

 

I'm just kinda intrigued that it seems like the tools are there, or equivalent tools exist, but we can't do anything with them. (Unless I'm completely off by a longshot and no support exists in any way, shape, or form lol)

 

 

[ongwk733]

 

 

 

I could be wrong but I thought the reason was because we lack tools like Race Menu or ECE where users were able to directly modify facial morphs? I'm not versed in Skyrim modding but facial expressions were mostly done through there correct?

 

While true that RaceMenu and ECE had functionality to give a character facial expressions, they were permanently in that expression and still based on the game's MFG system, which can be controlled in console to give characters emotions and facial expressions temporarily for screenshot/roleplaying purposes.

 

The MFG has console commands that directly control aspects of a player/NPC's face like:

 

'mfg expression 2 100' >>>>>> the '2' is the happy emotion from a list of preset emotions in mfg and the '100' is the intensity of the emotion.

 

'mfg phoneme 0 50' >>>>> phoneme is the part of mfg that controls the mouth. Here, the '0' represents a certain mouth position (specifically the 'Aah' which is just an open mouth.) from a list of preset mouth positions. The '50' once again means intensity, so the character will be opening their mouth wide, but not as much as if it were '100'.

 

'mfg modifier 11 100' >>>>>> modifier is the part that modifies eye/brow movements. 'modifier 11' controls upward movement of the eyes, so '100' intensity has the character looking as high as they can.

 

 

With Racemenu and ECE, they directly implement the mfg console's functionality into character creation and give your player that expression permanently.

 

 

 

Edit:

Forgot to say, AFAIK since the last time I played FO4, there doesn't seem to be any mfg console-equivalent that would give a similar control of facial expressions over characters. The only mods I've seen then were a preset list of expressions that were entered into console, but no fine adjustment of eye direction or whatever.

 

 

 

I could be wrong but I thought the reason was because we lack tools like Race Menu or ECE where users were able to directly modify facial morphs? I'm not versed in Skyrim modding but facial expressions were mostly done through there correct?

 

 

So is that to say that the expression mods included with pose packages on the nexus isn't a reliable foundation for exploring expression editing?

 

I understand you're limited to the emotion-expressions in that mod -A.K.A, the base game- but it sounds to me that it's almost similar to picking and choosing expressions to skyrim, albeit having less control over expression intensity and less options over what to tweak (eye position, mouth open, smile/frown, etc.) without the use for a racemenu equivalent. And even then, would it be hard to incorporate it into LooksMenu?

 

I'm just kinda intrigued that it seems like the tools are there, or equivalent tools exist, but we can't do anything with them. (Unless I'm completely off by a longshot and no support exists in any way, shape, or form lol)

 

 

 

 

I'm no expert or mod-maker, but I think it's a safe guess that is the case.

 

IMO the expressions and mouth movements characters make in FO4 during conversations are quite good looking, even if some might find them over-exaggerated and cartoonish.

I'd wager a guess that either modders haven't found a good way to implement the expressions into mods yet, or Bethesda made it very hard to tinker with expression control.

 

I also find it hard to believe how after all this time there's still mfg equivalent for FO4. Expressions are a big part of taking screenshots, which makes it very hard for me to want to take them in FO4 as much as in Skyrim.

 

If someone here has proper knowledge of this, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

[parrotheada1a]

FYI, Dave's poses includes the same expressions in it as  Show your Emotion. That being said, you can't get open mouth expressions as like when talking. You can't get a toothy smile... or even an angry  gritting your teeth type either. Any screenies of Mac that I've taken with her mouth open are from when she is in a conversation with an NPC. I pause and TM the menu so she is frozen untill I can get the shot I like.  One thing I notice though, is that if I use an expression from the pose menu, that same style seems to carry over into the conversation part. Here's a couple that I did awhile back. The first one is from when Mac was talking to someone at the Institute.

 

ENH20170813232506_1 by paladina1a, on Flickr

 

The next one is of Mac just posed with her happy face.

 

ENH20170705142856_1 by paladina1a, on Flickr

[D_ManXX2]

maybe it is a mesh issue. if the mesh is not rigged properly you also get terrible facial animations facial animations are much more difficult to do then normal animations.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, D_ManXX2 said:

maybe it is a mesh issue. if the mesh is not rigged properly you also get terrible facial animations facial animations are much more difficult to do then normal animations.

Naw... as a professional animator, I can tell you that facial animation is MUCH easier. We only need to set morph controller values at specific keyframes to cause facial movements. Unlike with rigged bodies where we need to account for joint compression, IK/FK rig resolution and gimble issues. No, facial anim is MUCH easier. Provided of course that we have the morph targets to utilize.

[parrotheada1a]

On 11/19/2017 at 10:11 AM, lwflashy said:

Naw... as a professional animator, I can tell you that facial animation is MUCH easier. We only need to set morph controller values at specific keyframes to cause facial movements. Unlike with rigged bodies where we need to account for joint compression, IK/FK rig resolution and gimble issues. No, facial anim is MUCH easier. Provided of course that we have the morph targets to utilize.

 

I believe those targets are already in the game, considering the facial anims work for the base game. I could be wrong, but we might just need to figure out where they are, which ones look good, and if they need some special trigger. I'm no modder, but this intrigues the hell out of me. 

[Guest]

Well, there was one animator here, cant recall his name nor his mods name, but I know it used Blue Floor Squares to position the actors... anyways, he knows how to make mouths open and tongues move during sex animations. He mentioned adding expression names into a notation / timeline or some such and that was how he got the above mentioned facial animations to work on a blowjob - which by the way, was epically better than what he have in FP now...

[Fredas]

Well, I'm late to this discussion, but I'll add my thoughts.

 

I made use of Skyrim's expressions (via MFGConsole of course) for a mod of mine.  Honestly, the options for achieving expressions in Skyrim are frustratingly limited and even a little broken.  Off the top of my head:

• There are two types of expression control.  One simply gives you access to a set of predefined full-face expressions, like smiling or whatever.  The other is a series of variables that allow tweaks to the mouth, eyes, eyebrows etc.  The first type smoothly transitions the facial expression; the second type applies the tweaks instantly, with no option to force a similarly smooth transition.
• These two types of expression fight with one another when the first type is transitioning.  In fact any animation of the face (such as during talking) fights with the second type, resulting in the face twitching every frame.
• Despite the second type giving one much greater control than the first type, the only way to achieve a smile (upturn of the mouth) is by taking advantage of one of the first type's expressions in conjunction with tweaks, because there is no tweak that modifies the mouth in this fashion.
• If there are tweaks present on a given actor, and a game is reloaded, those tweaks will almost invariably remain on the actor after loading; in other words, facial tweaks are not included in game saves and are not even reset to zero when loading a game.
• At least one of the MFGConsole functions is partly broken because it fails to return the current value of one of the variables.

So basically... I really hope that what we get in FO4 is a little more streamlined.  I actually do have some plans for the game that involve expressions (still waiting on NiOverride, damn it) so this isn't idle grumping.

[Arrow and the Knee]

I went MIA for quite some time, so hopefully we will see some type of breakthrough this year.

Last year we had FourPlay and many features arrive. So let's keep our fingers crossed for 2018

[SkyAddiction]

On 11/23/2017 at 6:13 PM, Flashy (JoeR) said:

Well, there was one animator here, cant recall his name nor his mods name, but I know it used Blue Floor Squares to position the actors... anyways, he knows how to make mouths open and tongues move during sex animations. He mentioned adding expression names into a notation / timeline or some such and that was how he got the above mentioned facial animations to work on a blowjob - which by the way, was epically better than what he have in FP now...

 

This is the mod you were thinking of.

[Guest]

there are some mod that can make your character show some expressions. Dave's poses is one of them. But I'd love if I could make it via console, like skyrim.

 

[Jazzman]

Well, I for one would prefer a more differentiated facial expression in game, a revised animation. Remember, not all of us use prefab static poses that are by definition unrelated to the game which consequently gets easily reduced to a mere kabuki theater set. Instead, I try to catch the rare special in-game moments that are lost forever when I click the button for a few milliseconds too early or too late. So, I'd appreciate any meaningful development in that direction.

Now, what does a 'special moment' look like? Almost natural. Well, this one shows the interaction between lovers after she seemingly has finished to make her point, waiting for an adequate response by him, while he still appears to be listening and/or already thinking about the things heard. 

And, oh yes, I always set mi shots to music to give voice to what I see. I'm a moron, so what.

 

We Can Do Dat

 

⚠ Radio Radroach-Free Wasteland on 88.3 MHz

[ Dancehall ]  │  Mi lubricated enuff fi yuh glide in   ?

[KoolHndLuke]

I found this one awhile back. What would be great is to assign different facials to hotkeys and add to some of the animations for 4Play. From what I have seen with other mods, if the means to manipulate facial movement is in the game through console, then a "system" could be made by someone through scripting and other techniques/tools that might allow for timed expression changing as well as a permanent "look" -I would think. Maybe a way to utilize the saves in looks-menu would give us a way to tailor specific facial animations that could be "played" on a timer via a menu like Dave's poses?