ck2 [mod] Lesbocracy

[Malum Oculus]

13 hours ago, Buzhidao said:

Eventually. But I decided to finish up with the main features first and then start making compatibility patches.

That's fair, once CK2plus is finally finished will you be updating that patch too?

[Malum Oculus]

Also is it possible when you reform you religion and choice polygamy as well as Lesbian Divine, that you could have multiple wives?

[Buzhidao]

On 9/7/2019 at 9:32 AM, Malum Oculus said:

Also is it possible when you reform you religion and choice polygamy as well as Lesbian Divine, that you could have multiple wives?

They should be incompatible actually. In any case the game wouldn't let women have multiple spouses if I am not mistaken. Harems are only available to men from what I can gather from dev notes.

You can always have concubines. They are functionally the same thing with procreation out of the picture.

[Malum Oculus]

Thx

[Miss AshleyJ]

I know this is probably an interaction issue with the new major TCM I've just started playing, but I figured this would be a decent heads up.

 

I just started using "After the End Fan Fork", part of a series of mod that shifts the action to post apocalypse North America in the 2600s (I'm a huge Fallout fan, so this was right up my alley)

 

I have a fully established New Californian Empire which is both Lesbian and Tentacle. 

 

My current character apparently had a son with someone before her rise to power and every time I win a war, my inheritance rules reset, causing him to become my new heir instead of his sister. In game all I do is click back onto 'women only" succession, and it's fine, but I have to do that every time I conquer new territory.

[Dehlaz]

I am curious, and it's possible my particular playthrough missed this due to shifting versions and mod versions, but what is required for the School of Sappho to stop being persecuted? I'm still having members burned at the stake despite over 200 in-game years passing and lesbianism being very widespread, with my Female Superiority-ruled Roman Empire covering most of the European side of the map, with the presiding faith being Hellenism with Enatic Clans and the majority of rulers are homosexual females. Not to mention my ruler also being the head of the religion.

[Buzhidao]

On 10/13/2019 at 4:30 AM, Dehlaz said:

I am curious, and it's possible my particular playthrough missed this due to shifting versions and mod versions, but what is required for the School of Sappho to stop being persecuted? I'm still having members burned at the stake despite over 200 in-game years passing and lesbianism being very widespread, with my Female Superiority-ruled Roman Empire covering most of the European side of the map, with the presiding faith being Hellenism with Enatic Clans and the majority of rulers are homosexual females. Not to mention my ruler also being the head of the religion.

Characters will always be imprisoned and burned by mistake.

If the society interface no longer has a progress bar, then lesbians are no longer persecuted (however this doesn't apply to realms where the top liege is male, for example).

[malvic]

Hey, a couple of questions and a couple of suggestions, if you can stand to wade through the bulk of this text.

 

If playing Byzantine, what threshold needs to be passed to remove the "against tradition" negative modifier for selecting a female heir? The full status of women law? (Admittedly I assume this is a question of vanilla mechanics rather than something the mod changes.)

 

The other question is regarding the "Lesbian Divinity" reformation option. Specifically, what does it do exactly?

I see the heir-selection component of meritocracy, that's clear and simple.

And the other three features are fairly apparent, correct me if I'm wrong but they are:

Full Enatic (which can otherwise be obtained from the last female authority law?)

No penalty from female rulers (which can otherwise be obtained from the full status of women law?)

And Lesbian marriage is allowed (which can be obtained either automatically shortly after founding a tribal matriarchy OR by fulfilling the school of sappho progress bar twice?)

Assuming all of those details are correct(I can only assume, again, correct me if I'm wrong)

Is that all that "Lesbian Divinity" does?

 

Let's say hypothetically, you play a catholic dynasty and unlock lesbian marriage through the society, and pass the full status and full female authority laws.

Then would the player have all of the effects of "Lesbian Divinity"? (except of course meritocracy)

If that is the case, then is "Lesbian Divinity" just a shortcut(plus meritocracy) to what can be otherwise achieved through persistent gameplay?

 

If the aforementioned catholic dynasty had passed all of the mod's content, then converted to Hellenism(for example) and reformed the religion with the "Lesbian Divinity" feature, would there be any difference between it and the same realm under the catholic faith, specifically in regard to this mod?

 

The nature of my question is mostly a concern of "wasting" the religion reformation slot if say as a tribal matriarchy, merely being a tribal matriarchy awards full status of women plus lesbian marriage. So again excluding the meritocracy component, to me it seems like the only point of picking "Lesbian Divinity" would be to skip through passing the female authority laws. Which seems like a waste of a slot.

Does it function as I have outlined and provide nothing that progressing through the mod's features as any religion doesn't also provide?

 

Sorry for the long-winded question. I've been enjoying the mod quite a bit. As niche as the subject matter is, strangely enough I consider it to be a pretty well polished mod compared to most mods that Paradox games typically see. I just have a drive to understand the nuts and bolts that something is made from.

 

The suggestions just fall within the realm of flavor events and decisions and such.

I understand the theme of the mod, having a core of realism or at least some chain of rationality in the less realistic extreme examples(like the higher female-authority laws, and a female tribal ruler just deciding to completely overhaul society all of a sudden). So I don't mean to suggest anything too far outside of those restrictions. But I suppose the ideas are more accurate to call reasonable extrapolations of an ahistorical lesbian society than something with realistic origins. Also kinda just smutty, which is is why I'm posting it here instead of on steam.

I really like the "spartan training" mission sequence, so having more stuff to involve lesbianism with martial pursuits would be great. The spartan training stuff could be extrapolated into a sort of female-only Olympic games(or similar physical competition) decision in an established lesbian-ruled society. Or perhaps more widespread and public spartan training for ceremonial purposes. Maybe it could be an event involving a female marshal in a lesbian society. A recruitment drive, maybe? The women of the village emerging from their homes to watch the spectacle of female soldiers participating in spartan training as a way to drum up interest in martial pursuits and military service etc.

 

Regarding great works, which I think I've spotted you commenting on before: In lieu of full great works dedicated to the theme of the mod(which would be nice), something which probably wouldn't require much effort to implement could perhaps be great work *features* specific to lesbians or society members or so on. A grove in the royal gardens dedicated to showcasing erotic statues of women perhaps, with similar positive and negative effects to the artistic artifacts already present.

Perhaps a secret bath-house or lounge within a palace with an effect like allowing for lesbian-orgies without having the lifestyle focuses selected.

 

Finally, going in a more taboo direction: So far, with my experience of the mod I don't see any way in which incest is possible. It's an interesting taboo as most doctrines that focus on it(be it with a positive or a negative spin) generally espouse reproduction as the primary concern/benefit of familial coupling. The way the mod presents lesbians reproducing, it appears to disregard most conventional concerns regarding breeding(except for the eugenics aspect with the decision). So in a society that is very unrestrained in freedoms regarding reproduction as opposed to historical Europe, the main argument for or against incest seems to be gone. Which one could then conclude to mean that an incestuous pairing of lesbians is unremarkable and reasonable to pursue if both parties are inclined to do so. So that could be an area for expansion.

The other taboo is probably something that rationality could attribute to the "Lesbian Divinity" reformation option actually. More aggressive conditioning of a youth's sexuality. Obviously putting anything illicit in the developmental years is off-limits. But perhaps there could be a coming-of-age ceremony where if say, the heir to an empire believing in Lesbian Divinity is not homosexual, they are incentivized to lean in that direction. Regardless of whether or not it works. It stands to reason as a possible religious ceremony.

 

And while I could probably think up some more stuff, I'll take pity on anyone actually reading this and stop here.

Thanks for the mod as well, before I forget.

 

[Trioculus]

2 hours ago, malvic said:

If playing Byzantine, what threshold needs to be passed to remove the "against tradition" negative modifier for selecting a female heir?

I think this is just a matter of succession laws : in a agnatic-cognatic elective succession, female heirs are seen as "against tradition", whereas in enatic-cognatic male are.

 

2 hours ago, malvic said:

Is that all that "Lesbian Divinity" does?

If I'm correct, Lesbian Divinity also allow women and disallow men to hold temples. Which is not the case in your exemple of a catholic dynasty UNLESS you also pass the law "female ordination".

[malvic]

12 hours ago, Trioculus said:

I think this is just a matter of succession laws : in a agnatic-cognatic elective succession, female heirs are seen as "against tradition", whereas in enatic-cognatic male are.

 

If I'm correct, Lesbian Divinity also allow women and disallow men to hold temples. Which is not the case in your exemple of a catholic dynasty UNLESS you also pass the law "female ordination".

Ah yeah I'd forgotten to mention that component. But I suppose that doesn't change the nature of the question, whether or not Lesbian Divinity does anything that isn't achievable as a non-pagan religion through laws.

[Buzhidao]

@malvic you are right that "Lesbian Divinity" gives you basically the same set of "traditions" that a Catholic Queen would get through the society + laws. The main difference is that for a non-pagan these "traditions" are enforced by the crown, which means they will only apply within your own kingdom. With Lesbian Divinity every realm of your faith will be forced to follow these "traditions" as well. As a consequence, if you are in charge of a super-empire that annexes everything in sight, there will be no reason to have Lesbian Divinity.

 

There's also the matter of the Matriarchal Deposition casus belli - you can still use it if you don't have Lesbian Divinity or Enatic Clans, but it will cost you 1000 prestige (or something like that).

 

Thanks for the kind words! This mod has gotten so big that I can no longer recall every detail without looking it up. So there may be some other features that I forgot to mention. Or some bugs that I don't know about. Always looking for bug reports from the player community, so don't hesitate to contact me.

 

As for your suggestions - they are all good and I like them

I'll see what they might turn into with further development.

 

Adding new features to existing great works sounds interesting, but it would almost definitely require that I overwrite some vanilla files, which I usually try not to do. But we'll see if there are any possible workarounds.

 

Side note: I am still looking for an artist who can make 3D-models for great works and some regular images for them. As soon as I find a volunteer, I will start working on adding at least one new great work to the mod.

 

Regarding incest - marriage between sisters has been possible from the very first iteration of this mod. Other than that I haven't really done anything about incest, other than add some flavor text for Zoroastrians in the latest big update.

 

I think that's everything.

[malvic]

Cheers for the response.

I've only a very basic grasp of diving into the code of the game and couldn't tell for sure if I'd missed something or not. So it is good to know for sure what the effects are.

I like to construct at least a vague string of objectives before diving into a new game, so it becomes an issue of note there sometimes.

For example: Byzantine count>Byzantine Empress>Roman Empress>Hellenistic reformation as a concept has the ideas clash, as it's somewhat reasonable to assume that all of the society's progress and realm laws would be complete by the point that a player is ready to select "Lesbian Divinity" Which makes it a bit of an odd choice.

Alternatively, reforming Hellenism earlier and without the Roman Empire step complete typically requires some secret-religion society work. Which then clashes with the mod's society. Which isn't the best solution either.

Though these complaints aren't really projected towards the mod at all.(If anything, I'm mildly annoyed at how rigid the vanilla game is in regard to the Byzantine/Roman/Hellenism stuff),

I just thought I'd provide the sorts of things that led me to contemplate the exact nature of the reformation option.

 

Also on the topic of poorly understanding game files. I'm not quite sure how files overwrite one another, or to what extent the game can accept multiple additive files. But on brief inspection, both the "Ancient Religions Reborn" and "Dido's Legacy" mods feature files in the "wonders" and "wonder_upgrades" folders that are distinct from the files in the vanilla install directory.

But uh, yeah I don't know if that means anything or not.

 

And the incest stuff was something that I hadn't attempted in awhile. I think I recalled being unable to seduce other homosexual sisters at some point, and extrapolated that incest stuff in general was discarded.

Is Lesbian-incestual marriage available for any society with "Lesbian Divinity" or otherwise full law/society progression? Or does it still demand the Divine Marriage religious feature(despite the non-reproductive nature of the union)?

[zb123thecat]

19 hours ago, malvic said:

Cheers for the response.

I've only a very basic grasp of diving into the code of the game and couldn't tell for sure if I'd missed something or not. So it is good to know for sure what the effects are.

I like to construct at least a vague string of objectives before diving into a new game, so it becomes an issue of note there sometimes.

For example: Byzantine count>Byzantine Empress>Roman Empress>Hellenistic reformation as a concept has the ideas clash, as it's somewhat reasonable to assume that all of the society's progress and realm laws would be complete by the point that a player is ready to select "Lesbian Divinity" Which makes it a bit of an odd choice.

Alternatively, reforming Hellenism earlier and without the Roman Empire step complete typically requires some secret-religion society work. Which then clashes with the mod's society. Which isn't the best solution either.

Though these complaints aren't really projected towards the mod at all.(If anything, I'm mildly annoyed at how rigid the vanilla game is in regard to the Byzantine/Roman/Hellenism stuff),

I just thought I'd provide the sorts of things that led me to contemplate the exact nature of the reformation option.

 

Also on the topic of poorly understanding game files. I'm not quite sure how files overwrite one another, or to what extent the game can accept multiple additive files. But on brief inspection, both the "Ancient Religions Reborn" and "Dido's Legacy" mods feature files in the "wonders" and "wonder_upgrades" folders that are distinct from the files in the vanilla install directory.

But uh, yeah I don't know if that means anything or not.

 

And the incest stuff was something that I hadn't attempted in awhile. I think I recalled being unable to seduce other homosexual sisters at some point, and extrapolated that incest stuff in general was discarded.

Is Lesbian-incestual marriage available for any society with "Lesbian Divinity" or otherwise full law/society progression? Or does it still demand the Divine Marriage religious feature(despite the non-reproductive nature of the union)?

are you starting your byzantine countess runs on the island of Lesbos, as well? And what start year do you usually choose?

 

also, with divine marriage, is it possible to arrange a marriage for two of your daughters or is it only for the player characters themselves?

[Buzhidao]

On 10/19/2019 at 4:50 PM, zb123thecat said:

are you starting your byzantine countess runs on the island of Lesbos, as well? And what start year do you usually choose?

This^ There is a small variation in one of the events if you start on Lesbos.

On 10/19/2019 at 4:50 PM, zb123thecat said:

also, with divine marriage, is it possible to arrange a marriage for two of your daughters or is it only for the player characters themselves?

You have to rely on chance, sorry. I've had daughters fall for each other, but there are no guaranteed ways to make it happen. And you can't arrange marriages, but you still have some influence over who your children decide to marry.

On 10/18/2019 at 9:11 PM, malvic said:

For example: Byzantine count>Byzantine Empress>Roman Empress>Hellenistic reformation as a concept has the ideas clash, as it's somewhat reasonable to assume that all of the society's progress and realm laws would be complete by the point that a player is ready to select "Lesbian Divinity" Which makes it a bit of an odd choice.

Alternatively, reforming Hellenism earlier and without the Roman Empire step complete typically requires some secret-religion society work. Which then clashes with the mod's society. Which isn't the best solution either.

Though these complaints aren't really projected towards the mod at all.(If anything, I'm mildly annoyed at how rigid the vanilla game is in regard to the Byzantine/Roman/Hellenism stuff),

I just thought I'd provide the sorts of things that led me to contemplate the exact nature of the reformation option.

I've been working on giving the SoS some of the powers of secret religious cults (but only in regards to Hellenism) to accommodate this exact playthrough. Sadly, I've still not finished them.

On 10/18/2019 at 9:11 PM, malvic said:

Also on the topic of poorly understanding game files. I'm not quite sure how files overwrite one another, or to what extent the game can accept multiple additive files. But on brief inspection, both the "Ancient Religions Reborn" and "Dido's Legacy" mods feature files in the "wonders" and "wonder_upgrades" folders that are distinct from the files in the vanilla install directory.

Only if the files have the exact same names, are the mods incompatible.

On 10/18/2019 at 9:11 PM, malvic said:

Is Lesbian-incestual marriage available for any society with "Lesbian Divinity" or otherwise full law/society progression? Or does it still demand the Divine Marriage religious feature(despite the non-reproductive nature of the union)?

Incestual marriage is available to everyone. Divine Marriage only adds its own perks to this union.

[Dehlaz]

On 10/15/2019 at 12:07 PM, Buzhidao said:

Characters will always be imprisoned and burned by mistake.

If the society interface no longer has a progress bar, then lesbians are no longer persecuted (however this doesn't apply to realms where the top liege is male, for example).

Good to know, I must've misunderstood (thought that persecution being stopped meant the School members would no longer be hunted as apostates, but I'm guessing that's not a thing that can be modded easily/at all). I guess I'll just have to keep targeting the lieges/chaplains doing the burning with conversion. Thanks for the reply and continued work on the mod! I'll be saving my next Rome/Hellenism run until you add in some content for that, trying tribal content now; it's fun establishing a matriarchy in the relatively isolated Eastern European lands and reforming the Slavic faith with Lesbian Divinity.

[malvic]

On 10/20/2019 at 12:20 AM, zb123thecat said:

are you starting your byzantine countess runs on the island of Lesbos, as well? And what start year do you usually choose?

I have an awful compulsion to always start in the earliest date available. Which is probably a reason my interest in CK2 has waned ever since Charlemange, as it's an incredibly boring start compared to the Old Gods one.

I haven't done the game yet, I was just contemplating doing it.

My two Byzantine count games post-Holy Fury have been the ruler of half of Cyprus and then a count in Sicily.

I'm not sure where I'd start for a SoS playthrough, though Lesbos does stand out as obvious. And moreso if there's a nod to doing so.

 

On 10/21/2019 at 4:12 AM, Buzhidao said:

There is a small variation in one of the events if you start on Lesbos.

What are the requirements? It must be your capital?

On 10/21/2019 at 4:12 AM, Buzhidao said:

I've been working on giving the SoS some of the powers of secret religious cults (but only in regards to Hellenism) to accommodate this exact playthrough. Sadly, I've still not finished them.

Only if the files have the exact same names, are the mods incompatible.

Ah, that's an interesting idea. A lot of unity between the faith and the mod's lens for sure.

Still hard to decide if I want to enforce the mod's laws through reformation or through secular law though. The law route does feel more satisfying to me.

 

I'd assumed that was how compatability was working. If those mods have differently named .txt file in the wonder_upgrades folder then I'd assume there would be a way to add wonder upgrades without issues of overwriting anything, or am I misunderstanding what I'm seeing?

[Buzhidao]

12 hours ago, malvic said:

What are the requirements? It must be your capital?

Yes, only that.

13 hours ago, malvic said:

I'd assumed that was how compatability was working. If those mods have differently named .txt file in the wonder_upgrades folder then I'd assume there would be a way to add wonder upgrades without issues of overwriting anything, or am I misunderstanding what I'm seeing?

Wonder upgrades are defined for each wonder, meaning if I want to add a new upgrade to an existing wonder, I have to overwrite the vanilla file with that wonder.

[Femmesaint]

Playing as Byzantine Empire for over 100 years now.  I reached the first threshold of society prestige, and am about half way to the 2nd.  I have the law Female Superiority, and Status of Women is full, but "Lesbian Tyranny" still is not an option.  Obviously I am not able to form a Tribal Monarchy at any point, so it is possible to enact the the Tyranny law?

[SuccinctScrivener]

For female_guild_1, one of the potential requirements is set as "county = { has_law = status_of_women_4 }", but I believe that won't return true if the owner has a higher title. I would suggest "FROM = { has_law = status_of_women_4 }", which would check to see if the settlement holder has the law, and also "FROM = { any_liege = { has_law = status_of_women_4 } }", which would let vassals of a lord who has passed the law to build the building as well.

[Buzhidao]

On 10/28/2019 at 9:03 AM, Femmesaint said:

Playing as Byzantine Empire for over 100 years now.  I reached the first threshold of society prestige, and am about half way to the 2nd.  I have the law Female Superiority, and Status of Women is full, but "Lesbian Tyranny" still is not an option.  Obviously I am not able to form a Tribal Monarchy at any point, so it is possible to enact the the Tyranny law?

There's a cooldown (50 years, I think?).
Or you can kill off your character, then the cooldown will reset.

5 hours ago, ThrowAwayToThrowAway said:

For female_guild_1, one of the potential requirements is set as "county = { has_law = status_of_women_4 }", but I believe that won't return true if the owner has a higher title. I would suggest "FROM = { has_law = status_of_women_4 }", which would check to see if the settlement holder has the law, and also "FROM = { any_liege = { has_law = status_of_women_4 } }", which would let vassals of a lord who has passed the law to build the building as well.

Is this conjecture or did you encounter this bug in the game?

[123789654]

A bug - I reached full status of women as an independent duchy (catholic, feudal from the start) before I acquired a kingdom title, and when I did, all four sections of female authority crown law were greyed out. Cycling status of women down to notable and back up to full using allow_laws fixes it. However someone playing ironman for whatever reason can't do this, hitting them with a 10-20 year delay from doing it manually.

[SuccinctScrivener]

12 hours ago, Buzhidao said:

Is this conjecture or did you encounter this bug in the game?

I have experienced the bug of not being able to construct Female Guilds in my demesne despite having the Full Status of Women law in my kingdom, and with the tooltip returning that the county does not have the law. Based on examining my saves in a text editor, I suspect that one's lesser titles' unused parameters like laws aren't updated until the game needs to update them for some reason.

 

A side note that "FROM = {"  and "FROM = { any_liege = {" are the scopes used for the vanilla bloodline-enabled buildings.

 

Edit: Looking at the mod more closely, it appears the issue may be "any_demesne_title = { add_law = { law = status_of_women_4" is added as a pass_effect, but when playing around with the console, it doesn't appear to be working. And even if it was working, wouldn't it not apply to provinces acquired after the law is passed? And also, if status_of_women_4 is added by event from another mod, it is not necessarily added to demesne provinces. Checking FROM is probably more robust.

[Buzhidao]

On 10/30/2019 at 4:40 AM, 123789654 said:

A bug - I reached full status of women as an independent duchy (catholic, feudal from the start) before I acquired a kingdom title, and when I did, all four sections of female authority crown law were greyed out. Cycling status of women down to notable and back up to full using allow_laws fixes it. However someone playing ironman for whatever reason can't do this, hitting them with a 10-20 year delay from doing it manually.

Just waiting a bit fixes the issue too.

[SuccinctScrivener]

Another minor issue. I had the female_authority_2 law and the les_gynarchy_government, and somehow or another reverted to absolute cognatic inheritance. That's not really an issue, easy enough to correct, but it appears that there is no government flavour that applies to the feudal governments added by lesbocracy if you don't have enatic or enatic-cognatic succession, at least other than anarchy.

 

[Buzhidao]

17 hours ago, ThrowAwayToThrowAway said:

Another minor issue. I had the female_authority_2 law and the les_gynarchy_government, and somehow or another reverted to absolute cognatic inheritance. That's not really an issue, easy enough to correct, but it appears that there is no government flavour that applies to the feudal governments added by lesbocracy if you don't have enatic or enatic-cognatic succession, at least other than anarchy.

 

There is no need for a non-enatic gynarchy flavour, because it shouldn't even be possible to revert back to absolute cognatic with female_authority_2. I would be grateful if you could detail how you managed to revert to absolute cognatic, so that I could patch this issue in a future update.