Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[krzp]

Have anyone ever got their character in a device called Rope Armbinder?

If you did, you probably know that in case anything triggers the DDArmbinderSolo animation leads to your character's hands casually exiting the device like it isn't there.

 

I've looked at the code,

Function CreateDDArmbinderSolo(int id)
<...>
Anim.AddPositionStage(a1, "ZapArmbHorny01", 0, silent=false)

 

That animation isn't working at all with elbowbinder-type devices.

 

So, what I'm proposing, is to either replace ZapArmbHorny01 with something more... both arm binder and elbow binder friendly (I did that, I'm lazy - ft_horny_elbowbinder_1 works well enough, especially if you tweak the elbows just a little bit for regular arm binder-type devices), or create a separate animation group, something like:

 

Spoiler

Function CreateDDElbowbinderSolo(int id)
    libs.Log("Creating DDElbowbinderSolo")
    sslBaseAnimation Anim = SexLab.GetAnimationObject("DDElbowbinderSolo")
    if Anim != none && Anim.Name != "DDElbowbinderSolo"
        Anim.Name = "DDElbowbinderSolo"
        Anim.SetContent(Sexual)
        int a1 = Anim.AddPosition(Female)
        Anim.AddPositionStage(a1, "ft_horny_elbowbinder_1", 0, silent=false)

        Anim.SetStageTimer(1, 20.0)
       
        Anim.AddTag("Solo")
        ;    Anim.AddTag("Masturbation")
        Anim.AddTag("F")
        Anim.AddTag("Elbowbinder")
        Anim.AddTag("DeviousDevice")
        Anim.AddTag("NoSwap")
       
        Anim.Save(-1)
    EndIf
EndFunction

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by krzp

[Kimy]

Lots of good points here! Thanks for the input, everyone!

 

A few points to consider from my own side:

 

1. Anyone guessing that I have limited experience with SE is correct. I have SE installed, but never really used it much. I guess a lot of the new and exciting SE features you guys are talking about I might have never heard of. Some of them sound definitely intriguing, though!

2. I do agree with many of you that SE should have better support than it has now.

3. I have no plans to outright retire the LE version.

4. I am also not too keen on the idea to outright fork DD and hand SE development to an independent maintainer. I'd like the two versions still follow the same vision.

5. One idea I have been toying with is lifting the current requirement that everything added to DD also must be in the LE version. Which would allow us to compile a list of desirable SE-only features to add to DD and see if we can add them to the SE version. This would not hurt LE players, as these features are not available for LE anyway.

6. One exception from the above is devices, which I still would love to offer both the LE and SE version. But I don't expect devices to use any SE exclusive features anyway (I can't think of any SE only features they could use, at least), so it should be all good.

7. New features that make sense on LE will get backported whenever possible, as will bugfixes.

 

While this will make the development process a bit more complicated on my end, DD is largely a mature project at this point, so the workload should be manageable (I'd probably see this differently if I expected DD still to evolve and grow dramatically, but I think it's fairly feature complete at this point). The only caveat is my own inexperience with SE, so I'd probably need some help with the new features.

 

Thoughts?

[HexBolt8]

24 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Thoughts?

It seems like a balanced approach that offers benefits for SE players, while keeping LE players and developers in the fold, and maintaining a common vision across both versions.  The common vision will facilitate mods that want to offer LE/SE/AE versions, knowing that the concepts behind the devices will be consistent.

[naaitsab]

30 minutes ago, Kimy said:

 

Thoughts?

I went a full 180 on LE vs SE a few months ago and I can only suggest others to try it (again). Near everything is ported now or even surpassed and it's wayyyy less of a let's keep it positive, "adventure" to get it up and running without crashing every 5 minutes or running like crap 

 

I think the setup you've written is about what most people are aiming for. Foremost it will give SE some very much needed spit and polish and can integrate all nice tweaks instead of being "just" a conversion. It will also shift the 'new stuff' attention more towards SE as there are awesome mods that just don't exist for LE. So it does not feel like LE is the ball and chain keeping it tied down. We do need to keep an eye out to keep the main API calls the same. How it works under the hood can be totally different of course.

 

Might be a good time for the discussion to shift it towards the how and not the why anymore. Perhaps splitting this beta/dev thread into a LE and SE version would help? Posting stuff here and marking it LE or SE with discussions in between probably will be a mess. For code only stuff Git could still be a great tool to use. As it allows merging and change tracking on the text based script files. So it does not have to be a forumpost that can get lost in other chatter. And then it can be marked as merged or getting comments on it by other contributors.

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

Lots of good points here! Thanks for the input, everyone!

 

A few points to consider from my own side:

 

1. Anyone guessing that I have limited experience with SE is correct. I have SE installed, but never really used it much. I guess a lot of the new and exciting SE features you guys are talking about I might have never heard of. Some of them sound definitely intriguing, though!

2. I do agree with many of you that SE should have better support than it has now.

3. I have no plans to outright retire the LE version.

4. I am also not too keen on the idea to outright fork DD and hand SE development to an independent maintainer. I'd like the two versions still follow the same vision.

5. One idea I have been toying with is lifting the current requirement that everything added to DD also must be in the LE version. Which would allow us to compile a list of desirable SE-only features to add to DD and see if we can add them to the SE version. This would not hurt LE players, as these features are not available for LE anyway.

6. One exception from the above is devices, which I still would love to offer both the LE and SE version. But I don't expect devices to use any SE exclusive features anyway (I can't think of any SE only features they could use, at least), so it should be all good.

7. New features that make sense on LE will get backported whenever possible, as will bugfixes.

 

While this will make the development process a bit more complicated on my end, DD is largely a mature project at this point, so the workload should be manageable (I'd probably see this differently if I expected DD still to evolve and grow dramatically, but I think it's fairly feature complete at this point). The only caveat is my own inexperience with SE, so I'd probably need some help with the new features.

 

Thoughts?

Yes, of course....if you want?!

 

This all discussion can easily become answered:

SSE is for best to be used for sexLab and it´s all 3BBB suporting bodies-simply for sex-action-that´s it. Most people use it for such a gameplay. But those simply can not follow that DD/ZAP can´t become "ported" with all their features - but WHY??? ...

SexLab and other mods which mostly are mentioned to work and have been created into or FOR the LAB of that mod (sexLab), means: animation replacers and specially all the new body-designs with overstyled collision and marco-detailed sex-part(s), simply do not suit to lot of assets coming inside of DD and also of ZAP. In the past ZAP did not even spend one single asset for Bodyslide-was pretty a lightweigted and easy to convert version, that ZAP 6.11...

 

That´s why I absolutly do not go to support all those stuff by trying to follow an unserious way of serving SSE with content, which simply has no suiting technology to offer.

Aside of a no serious smp-physic inside of SSE (yes it is lacking in compare with LE, I´m sorry to say so), SSE is lacking in different other technical aspects, which make us seriouly say, that lot of special mods can simply not become converted: you can convert particulary some stuff-but lot of assets and functions simply don´t work seriously, so...at the end of the day, smp is not even working inside of the race-menu of sse, and their sliders only work with a tremendious delay, which makes race-menu nearly to become a not serious working mod inside of sse. Another port. Maybe SKSE for SSE has not the necessary bandwith compared with LE...

While the whole code-stuff is mostly untouched or more ideal to program by using a professional format under SKSE inside of SSE, lot of creators think that everything is FINE to switch to SSE-but that´s wrong.

SSE will always stay at it´s technical limitations, compared with LE and that is now since some years not a changer and won´t become a changer in future.

SSE is ideal for CONSOLE-gameplay, sexLab-sex-mods and there it mostly has been made for...

Of course CAN we "port", but the whole SSE seems to be such a "PORTISSIMO" and simply it can´t be supported even by suiting tools. Converters also are not error-free and mostly and endless textures of LE now run inside of SSE, which normally is been made for a much more better depth of gamebryo-file-creation.

The LL threads are full with request for porting from or to LE/SSE, specially for the confusion of the existing body-models in any direction....on the one hand it seemes to be cool to have an individual game(pla) but on the other side are comsumers drowning between third-party mods and endless physics-versions up- and down LL and also NEXUS. The users oversee for which version a mod has been created and often want to convert stuff, which really needs a deeper insight of the different techniques of both games, which sadly have the same name: SKYRIM !!!

 

If one is bringing a new framework/old framework for SSE, it is HIGHLY recommended to offer that mod by using ONLY NEMESIS-compatible new animation-behaviors (nothing, what has been made under/by FNIS, to avoid another parallel use !!!. The price is herewith, to drop the creature animations, but on the other hand you get a fully working and game compatible animation-behavior for also BD/SM stuff. COmpatible means solid animations which "rock" onto the original behavior of skyrim. Lot of work but if created, you have it with all the official game features.

 

Modding into SSE means specially to me to begin FOR SSE to create stuff and NOT TRY to port !!!! This is a very, very important difference and it is the only chance to allow NEW and cool stuff for SSE in future. SOme few modders/creators on NEXUS went that HARD way with a few NICE and serious new results for SSE-which can´t by the way become "ported" into OLDRIM. A serious mod, which has been made for SSE can indeed not become converted to LE, same is for LE->SSE.

SKYRIM SSE and SKYRIM LE are DIFFERENT games, comparable like SKYRIM LE with FO3. This is the crux.

[krzp]

25 minutes ago, t.ara said:

nothing, what has been made under/by FNIS, to avoid another parallel use !!! The price is herewith, to drop the creature animations,

One can still handle creature behaviours through FNIS, and Nemesis handles the rest just fine, at least from my experience. I didn't test all the mods, of course, but major ones - SL/Zap/DD worked rather well with it.

[DonQuiWho]

4 hours ago, Kimy said:

Lots of good points here! Thanks for the input, everyone!

 

A few points to consider from my own side:

 

1. Anyone guessing that I have limited experience with SE is correct. I have SE installed, but never really used it much. I guess a lot of the new and exciting SE features you guys are talking about I might have never heard of. Some of them sound definitely intriguing, though!

2. I do agree with many of you that SE should have better support than it has now.

3. I have no plans to outright retire the LE version.

4. I am also not too keen on the idea to outright fork DD and hand SE development to an independent maintainer. I'd like the two versions still follow the same vision.

5. One idea I have been toying with is lifting the current requirement that everything added to DD also must be in the LE version. Which would allow us to compile a list of desirable SE-only features to add to DD and see if we can add them to the SE version. This would not hurt LE players, as these features are not available for LE anyway.

6. One exception from the above is devices, which I still would love to offer both the LE and SE version. But I don't expect devices to use any SE exclusive features anyway (I can't think of any SE only features they could use, at least), so it should be all good.

7. New features that make sense on LE will get backported whenever possible, as will bugfixes.

 

While this will make the development process a bit more complicated on my end, DD is largely a mature project at this point, so the workload should be manageable (I'd probably see this differently if I expected DD still to evolve and grow dramatically, but I think it's fairly feature complete at this point). The only caveat is my own inexperience with SE, so I'd probably need some help with the new features.

 

Thoughts?

 

Just read the quotes below

 

My suggestion would be to go for a change in which the primary emphasis moves from LE to SE from a fixed future date - gave it 18 months or so - so as not to all be done in a mad rush, but in a controlled manner that gives everyone the chance to realise what will happen and 'get used' to the notion.   We're really, really, not going back to LE as the game of preference and the sooner folk get that, the better

 

But let's face it, people don't want to be, or like to feel that they've been, railroaded into things (anything, anywhere, anytime!), but they will bow to the inevitable much better and, even if a bit begrudgingly, if they know about it's coming, and have time for their own personal grief, acceptance, and personal thought realignment, and conviction of the need for change to work through properly  

 

The advantages are that the ones who want to play, and develop, on a fairly stable base game aren't rushed into a change that, like all such things, may well come with sometimes rather dodgy implementation of important stuff.  Just reflect on the past Windows change progression, DOS 5, DOS 7, Win 3.0, 3.1, 95, 98. Me (who is ever going to forget that!) XP, Vista, W7, W10 and W11. Personally I stayed off changing from those I used as long as I could, and I am still using OpenShell to make Win10 look like XP, and am only going to change to W11 if I am both still alive and fairly sure it won't bork stuff I use regularly  LOL

 

The human factor is what matters, making sure that you keep all the important people - and I'm not one of those - as happy as possible

 

And as for us punters, it's got to be a change from something that the heroes amongst us have made fun to play with, to something that then plays even better - and as this is the DD thread, what I (personally) see as core here is a mod that provides gameplay with 'in your head functionality', not one that 'presently looks pretty and might be nice to prance around in'  And. let's face it, the present issues with glitchy/stroppy functionality that some encounter may probably be but a memory in 18 months time

 

So, change?  Go for it!  Sensibly ....

 

Now, after some practice, I shall return to trying to make 'Pee and Fart' work better  ?

 

DQW

 

 

 

 

[krzp]

Speaking of LE, Devious Devices for LE users, I'm trying to create a drop-in DAR version for LE like I did for SE, and I need your help with your version. ?

I don't think I can reuse my behaviour files, they are from the 64-bit version of Skyrim - and I don't have a regular LE FNIS on hand, I only have the SE version tucked away somewhere in the archives.

 

Backup first, naturally!

 

Can someone please overwrite three text files located in:

meshes\actors\character\animations\DD

meshes\actors\character\animations\DD2

meshes\actors\character\animations\DD3

 

with the three I've attached, run GenerateFNISforModders on those files, and send the resulting meshes\actors\character\Behaviors\FNIS_DD_Behavior.hkx, FNIS_DD2_Behavior.hkx and FNIS_DD3_Behavior.hkx my way?

 

Don't forget to restore your old files afterwards.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

edited: got them, many thanks to @HexBolt8

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by krzp

[naaitsab]

18 hours ago, t.ara said:

Yes, of course....if you want?!

 

This all discussion can easily become answered:

SSE is for best to be used for sexLab and it´s all 3BBB suporting bodies-simply for sex-action-that´s it. Most people use it for such a gameplay. But those simply can not follow that DD/ZAP can´t become "ported" with all their features - but WHY??? ...

SexLab and other mods which mostly are mentioned to work and have been created into or FOR the LAB of that mod (sexLab), means: animation replacers and specially all the new body-designs with overstyled collision and marco-detailed sex-part(s), simply do not suit to lot of assets coming inside of DD and also of ZAP. In the past ZAP did not even spend one single asset for Bodyslide-was pretty a lightweigted and easy to convert version, that ZAP 6.11...

Currently SE only gets 'ported' with some required tweaks like the Bodyslide and DLL. But one of the things we are trying to achieve. Is to step away from the current situation and make it a proper SE orientated build. So no longer just a LE-> SE port. As featurewise, and then I'm referring to things like OAR, Nemesis, P+ etc it's lacking all of them. So a big potential is currently left untouched.

 

I assume you can't fully transfer FNIS animations to Nemesis/OAR without converting them? There are not that many new animations lately but I also think there is no animator onboard at the moment. So fully converting those to remedy some FNIS issues, might be a bit of a hindrance.

[t.ara]

33 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

Currently SE only gets 'ported' with some required tweaks like the Bodyslide and DLL. But one of the things we are trying to achieve. Is to step away from the current situation and make it a proper SE orientated build. So no longer just a LE-> SE port. As featurewise, and then I'm referring to things like OAR, Nemesis, P+ etc it's lacking all of them. So a big potential is currently left untouched.

 

I assume you can't fully transfer FNIS animations to Nemesis/OAR without converting them?

 

Not everything can become converted to NEMESIS

 

 

There are not that many new animations lately but I also think there is no animator onboard at the moment.

You talk about the DD-development I guess...anyway, creating animation-idles is technically no problem.

 

So fully converting those to remedy some FNIS issues, might be a bit of a hindrance.

Those issures are known since years.

To be honest with you I can let you know from my experiences with NEMESIS which I made some time ago:

NEMESIS HAS THE CLEANER IMPLEMENTATION FOR HUMAN-ANIMATIONS RIGHT DIRECTLY TO BECOME USEABLE AS PART OF THE ORIGINAL ANIMATION-SYSTEM. Sorry for the cap-lock....^^^!

I made a pillory with a featuring enter, idle and an outro-animation which simply is solid working as an first ever created master example for a serious furniture inside of skyrim. A pic of that with an NPC stucking in there is on the ZAP-thread. This is NPC compatible as well. The animation has a perfect quality and works also for NPCs without any problems because it is built up like a chair-behavior. As soon you use offset animations by using Nemesis by it´s way of integration, you will earn all the solid offsets quite well known like from the original game as well. It´s possible to add serious animations without any issures into the skyrim-engine. Anyway is it HARD stuff to do, because you expand the animation-graph itself by adding additional animations and then store all those as an alternative new behavior-This behavior is NOT anymore compatible to work aside or with/under FNIS, means you can ONLY use NEMESIS for your mod, then. There´s no other combination possible with FNIS with such a creation, because FNIS is using templates, which are simply only containing the actual known stuff from it´s menu. New animation-behavior or edited behaviors can´t become used aside or thru FNIS. It would cause FNIS to not work any longer.

It´s everything depending on each other and as I mentioned, you can´t do both, how some comments again are suggesting-this is simply not possible...FNIS + NEMESIS can only be used together if you let NEMESIS run FNIS mod´s list-txt-files...and use the new behaviors of your mod by NEMESIS. But then you get issures with AA-animation content-this all can not be used directly and you will fail with all animations which use animated objects (NEMESIS can not support those, which have been made by using FNIS!!! ...and there are some few other problems showing up, then. NEMESIS can not play those FNIS-animations 1:1, and all the problems of animation-idles will also under NEMESIS show up again with same and more issures again.... The combination is only interesting if you use NEMESIS aside with some new attack-animations aside with FNIS, but then the FNIS-content mods have to be made compatible for Nemesis to make those animations work well-you have to prepare some FNIS stuff to become workable by using Nemesis. It´s then possible to use also creature-mod´s animations via FNIS-correct!!, ...but not working together at once and error-free and so the normal users will get issures.

Means that FNIS animations are not compatible in whole with the nemesis-mod-you can feed nemesis with FNIS stuff, but some features will be missing as mentioned.

It´s no problem to create animations by simply using the rigged skeleton-existing-stuff by pornphile or some other interesting "fast-working-rigs", but the problem is to add those wisely into the game. NEMESIS is the more professional way as it can handle serious new animation behaviors and sum those all up from different authors to prepare also including the fnis-stuff to become a bigger working animation-behavior for skyrim! FNIS can not do that in this way all alone as it´s structure is based on fixed templates, which can become edited too, but FORE made some sad and BAD mistakes, specially inside of the furniture-behavior-graph for skyrim. During his creations and making of FNIS, he probably could not see that (he found a more "simpler way to handle some stuff "like furniture" and "AA-animations" for example) and during that time some years ago, I also did not "see" that problems, but in between I know the problems of FNIS very exactly, as I studied the skyrim behavor graph now since a longer time. The second issure is this template-system, which aviods to use different new behavior-creations side-by-side inside of the game (he made that how I think not against creators-FNIS simply got this way of structure). Pity, that he´s not anymore online and not active any longer. I could help him to make FNIS solid and become a wonderful slot-behavior tool-but that´s too late now. I  ´m not able to work with program-code, but I can show and explain about the detailed mistakes inside of FNIS with it´s results  and I could help correcting those to make FNIS seriously to become a professional tool, which could add solid animations into the game. OK-too late!....lol.

Adding animations and it´s progressive new behaviors is FUN, specially if you get finally solid results-but it is taking longer time because it is more complexer, compared using FNIS. Anyway :::::: that´s all about this story.

 

FNIS is perfect for modders and animation-creators, it´s a handy and a very fine spending "hack" - tool with moderate and nearly perfect results. The rest of semi-professionalism mostly came all the years by additional code from different third-party creators so to surround some few issures of FNIS (luckily no issure of ZAP, not of sexLab and so on and so far)-but that´s simply also a part of "modding-action" to find alternative well working solutions.

A full transfer from FNIS - mods into NEMESIS is not possible because the animators and creators of those mods have also to know about the behavior-graph of skyrim with lot of professional details for such an integration, so when I think of ZAP to have thousands of furnitures to add by using the graph only, NO THANK YOU !!!-human´s life has to be used more wisely !!

If you add probably 20 furnitures by using only nemesis, this would be a nice and perfect result at all. But then you still do not have sexlab, no DD....you then create a single mod, which makes other users to force to play with your content with nemesis aside of FNIS probably, which is not really a nice step.

 

 

 

[krzp]

2 hours ago, naaitsab said:

I assume you can't fully transfer FNIS animations to Nemesis/OAR without converting them? There are not that many new animations lately but I also think there is no animator onboard at the moment. So fully converting those to remedy some FNIS issues, might be a bit of a hindrance.

Alternating animations, which DD uses for movement, are handled perfectly by OAR, we even added new swimming & petsuit ones made @iivanvv - with old FNIS, in order to add this, they would've been hardcoded into the zadboundcombat, and with OAR it's literally just drag and drop. Every other animation in DD has been handled by Nemesis just like they did with FNIS, at least in my experience - both the Sexlab stuff, contraptions and the regular struggles.

 

I don't know why we are talking about this, DD has been compatible with Nemesis (the author's of Nemesis actually fixed bugs with it and DD), aside from the combat movement, for quite some time.  I've been using it since 2021.

[HexBolt8]

13 hours ago, krzp said:

Speaking of LE, Devious Devices for LE users, I'm trying to create a drop-in DAR version for LE like I did for SE, and I need your help with your version

I don't normally use GenerateFNISforModders, so I was hoping that someone else would volunteer.    But I saw zero downloads, so I didn't want to leave you waiting.  I will message you the files that you requested.

[naaitsab]

10 hours ago, krzp said:

Alternating animations, which DD uses for movement, are handled perfectly by OAR, we even added new swimming & petsuit ones made @iivanvv - with old FNIS, in order to add this, they would've been hardcoded into the zadboundcombat, and with OAR it's literally just drag and drop. Every other animation in DD has been handled by Nemesis just like they did with FNIS, at least in my experience - both the Sexlab stuff, contraptions and the regular struggles.

 

I don't know why we are talking about this, DD has been compatible with Nemesis (the author's of Nemesis actually fixed bugs with it and DD), aside from the combat movement, for quite some time.  I've been using it since 2021.

Having to scour trough pages and pages for a download link and relying on hearsay if something works is exactly why we should be talking about it. I'm not sure if FNIS -> Nemesis on it's own would be enough of a step up to justify a 'official framework' change for the SE version. If it would fix laggy/broken poses and NPC glitching out for me personally it would be. But as OAR is a plugin and drop-in compatible it would be a no-brainer to bundle that in the official download.

[krzp]

14 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

I'm not sure if FNIS -> Nemesis on it's own would be enough of a step up to justify a 'official framework' change for the SE version.

But that's the thing, DD doesn't really need to change frameworks - if one wants to still use FNIS, sure, let them. Using DAR/OAR as an movement animations driver makes up DD to be finally fully compatible with Nemesis (well, at least from my user standpoint , perhaps there are differences from the animators standpoint, i can't comment on that side of the argument), and this suddenly makes it play nicely with all technological advances that happened since mr Fore retired, i.e. Precision, True Directional Movement, Tk Dodges, and the rest of them. No longer the gamers would have to choose what they want to play with, dd OR the modern mods, it should work nicely together - and that alone is why I think the sooner this happens, the better - and not as an optional patch, imo, this should a main thing (maybe keep the old FNIS version as a legacy thing or something).

 

Plus it's faster, doesn't suffer from the laggy AA application,  it's scriptless, and it's very configurable, and we can add a ton of features with a simple copy-paste. ?

I mean, setting up a proper bound bleedout idle, instead of hard coding it, can be as simple as copying a new animation into the proper folder, and this solves a ton of problems with immersion. Want to add an aroused idle? Previously one had to monitor it with a script, poll slautilscript every x seconds thru papyrus, then send an FNIS animation event - and with DAR, copy something like ft_horny_armbinder.hkx to a new folder, create a simple text config (or, with OAR, even better, do it from a nice MCM-like menu), let SKSE check the arousal faction ultra-fast, and set up a randomizer. It's beautifully easy!

 

While we are on a subject, thanks to the magnificent @HexBolt8 for helping me out with the files and a bit of testing, the LE version of DAR is done and is now resting in @Kimy's inbox along with the DAR and OAR ones for SE, what happens with them now is up to her. ?

 

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, naaitsab said:

Having to scour trough pages and pages for a download link and relying on hearsay if something works is exactly why we should be talking about it. I'm not sure if FNIS -> Nemesis on it's own would be enough of a step up to justify a 'official framework' change for the SE version. If it would fix laggy/broken poses and NPC glitching out for me personally it would be. But as OAR is a plugin and drop-in compatible it would be a no-brainer to bundle that in the official download.

 

NEMESIS has the power to create a new game out of skyrim-you do not need then any further "framework". The game can do that additional humanoid-behavior all alone, then. But that needs a drastical change of many existing behavior-stages and a lot of work inside of Creation-Kit at the same time, then. Restraints would get finally their meaning in "virtual-life". But you need to find loverslab-creator-slaves, doing that for us. LOL:-))

 

?

Edited July 5, 2023 by t.ara

[krzp]

Speaking of Behaviour generators, there's going to be a new kid on that particular block soon-ish, I've heard.

 

Pandora Human and Creature Behavior Engine (patreon link, it's paywalled while it's in development, a-la OAR was)

 

plus, Nemesis team are working on the Nemesis re-write. Be prepared for a new wave of "WHY ARE ME CHARACTER ARMS NOT STAYING IN THE ARMBINDERS" ?

[t.ara]

2 hours ago, krzp said:

Speaking of Behaviour generators, there's going to be a new kid on that particular block soon-ish, I've heard.

 

Pandora Human and Creature Behavior Engine (patreon link, it's paywalled while it's in development, a-la OAR was)

 

plus, Nemesis team are working on the Nemesis re-write. Be prepared for a new wave of "WHY ARE ME CHARACTER ARMS NOT STAYING IN THE ARMBINDERS" ?

 

 

Keep in mind that Nemesis has the idea to be able to add additional new behaviors, new parts or changed behaviors of the original game all inclusive combining all the creations of different authors. This also NEEDS that a mod author is asked to create not stuff over other stuff-and that is herewith possible. Under FNIS this problem doesn ´t exist. At the moment there´s nothing so far which could be harming each other so far-but specially in the case if one is changing parts of the original behavior, paired with deeper Creation-Kit changes, this would mean for the game and other mods to become USELESS  aside of such a mod/game-integration. And that ´s the TRAP of Nemesis. With FNIS, this has been excluded as FORE had the hands over those changes and a mod author had to ask him for such an implementation.

That´s WHY I personally think that NEMSIS is a more PERSONAL MOD /HACK to become used for individualists on ONLY a personal skyrim-installation rather useful as a sharing tool, compared with FNIS. While FORE made FNIS, he might exactly also thought about this aspect to keep clarity between different creators and have lot of different mods all work beside each others. This aspect is VERY important to be kept in mind when it comes to such drastical changes of the game-engine.

 
So, now...

I´ll not wasting your time any longer here cause you have more DD-important stuff to discuss here.

 

When I´m done with ZAP, I have offered as promised to work a little for KIM into DD.

Will be nice to see there some new and more furnitures inside:-)) But my creations are of course primary for SLE.

You need to do the easy-going "port" then by yourself:-))) ?

:-)))))

 

 

[DonQuiWho]

1 hour ago, t.ara said:

 

 

Keep in mind that Nemesis has the idea to be able to add additional new behaviors, new parts or changed behaviors of the original game all inclusive combining all the creations of different authors. This also NEEDS that a mod author is asked to create not stuff over other stuff-and that is herewith possible. Under FNIS this problem doesn ´t exist. At the moment there´s nothing so far which could be harming each other so far-but specially in the case if one is changing parts of the original behavior, paired with deeper Creation-Kit changes, this would mean for the game and other mods to become USELESS  aside of such a mod/game-integration. And that ´s the TRAP of Nemesis. With FNIS, this has been excluded as FORE had the hands over those changes and a mod author had to ask him for such an implementation.

That´s WHY I personally think that NEMSIS is a more PERSONAL MOD /HACK to become used for individualists on ONLY a personal skyrim-installation rather useful as a sharing tool, compared with FNIS. While FORE made FNIS, he might exactly also thought about this aspect to keep clarity between different creators and have lot of different mods all work beside each others. This aspect is VERY important to be kept in mind when it comes to such drastical changes of the game-engine.

 
So, now...

I´ll not wasting your time any longer here cause you have more DD-important stuff to discuss here.

 

When I´m done with ZAP, I have offered as promised to work a little for KIM into DD.

Will be nice to see there some new and more furnitures inside:-)) But my creations are of course primary for SLE.

You need to do the easy-going "port" then by yourself:-))) ?

:-)))))

 

 

 

Hi @t.ara

 

Do you mean like these?  You hashed them up for me - looking back that was as long ago as July 2019 - and said then that you would give them to Kimy to include in the DD suite

 

Not sure if you did, and it just got forgotten in everything else, or not.  However your now doing those as DD entities would be rather nice.

 

 With a little tip jar to collect the punters cash, with anims cribbed from/based on the ZAZ or POP pillory, they would be something nice in which we could park our AYGAS etc working slaves, in town centres, or by the roadsides, to earn their keep.  That would be good to have ?   Maybe even add a player 'catch in passing' event would add a little spice and risk as well. 

 

And that little box would make a great little temporary parking aid, and with a bit of imagination would be something tyhe slave could even carry around with them ... LOL

 

If LE though, would need to be something convertible to SE

 

I guess it's nice to dream, but I'll still probably be dead first .... ?

 

DQW

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by DonQuiWho

[t.ara]

8 minutes ago, DonQuiWho said:

 

Hi @t.ara

 

Do you mean like these?  You hashed them up for me - looking back that was as long ago as July 2019 - and said then that you would give them to Kimy to include in the DD suite

 

Not sure if you did, and it just got forgotten in everything else, or not.  However your now doing those as DD entities would be rather nice.

 

 With a little tip jar to collect the punters cash, with anims cribbed from/based on the ZAZ or POP pillory, they would be something nice in which we could park our AYGAS etc working slaves, in town centres, or by the roadsides, to earn their keep.  That would be good to have ?   Maybe even add a player 'catch in passing' event would add a little spice and risk as well. 

 

And that little box would make a great little temporary parking aid, and with a bit of imagination would be something tyhe slave could even carry around with them ... LOL

 

If LE though, would need to be something convertible to SE

 

I guess it's nice to dream, but I'll still probably be dead first .... ?

 

DQW

 

 

 

 

Yes yes yes-I have your wishes in mind, but the HDT-PE stuff we let aside-so to stay compatible to SSE. That BALL with the weight (chain-balls) can all also be made by using SMP very easily. But it needs a serious trim so that the heavy stuff is not flying around like feathers, touched by the wind.

If you like those, we will add those- as far KIM is agreeing....we need a permission for that things,  to make it an official new release, then.

The box might become a restraint and a furniture, if wanted. But then the player is immobile.

[Scrab]

Frankly, as one of the only authors making active use of DDC I prefer to keep the amount of furniture devices at a small scale, with general purpose devices being at the forefront. Anything else should - if at all - be some 3rd party resource that may be inlined into the mod that wants them, as opposed to forcing everyone to download and have them loaded into their game all the time

Not only does an excessive amount of furnitures create an "asset bloat" in the users game, it also hinders development of authors wishing to making actual use of these furnitures. Not seeing the wood for the trees and all that

 

If anything DDC related at all, Id prefer idle and furniture markers over actual furniture objects

• Idle Markers similar to wall lean markers with actors holding hands against the imperial iron bars
• an idle marker for groping an actor in a specific furniture (with associated example on how to place them)
• idle markers for whipping an actor, with a proper whipping animation and a proper smp whip to go along that over the stick and vanilla 1h attack idle
• Sitting idles specifically for actors in an armbinder or yoke

and so on

 

More furniture feels redundant. If anything at all, then more along the lines of: More pillory poses, at most one pillory alternative, another chair mesh with its own 2-3 idles but even these things, not so important. I dont need more XCrosses, Gallows and I dont need "BDSM boxes", "through walls" walls. This kinda stuff is much too specific and exotic to ever find concrete use in a way where an XCross wouldnt get the job done as well. These things may sound good on paper but will never find actual use in game

 

Id much prefer things to interact with existing furniture, allowing to make better use of whats already there, give more detail to whats already there, actually use them to tell a story for once, instead of just being there to look nice

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Scrab

[DonQuiWho]

29 minutes ago, t.ara said:

Yes yes yes-I have your wishes in mind, but the HDT-PE stuff we let aside-so to stay compatible to SSE. That BALL with the weight (chain-balls) can all also be made by using SMP very easily. But it needs a serious trim so that the heavy stuff is not flying around like feathers, touched by the wind.

If you like those, we will add those- as far KIM is agreeing....we need a permission for that things,  to make it an official new release, then.

The box might become a restraint and a furniture, if wanted. But then the player is immobile.

 

Thanks

 

To avoid any confusion, I'm not interested in anything that the NPC in the pics is wearing as clothes/additional restraints etc.  just the furniture, so I don't think that HDT-PE SMP etc issues matter?

 

I'm ONLY interested in the furniture, please, and the ability to use it in mods allied to, or ideally even part of, things like musje's HSH/AYGAS/iBDSM and trollautokill's DOM

 

DQW

[DonQuiWho]

34 minutes ago, Scrab said:

Frankly, as one of the only authors making active use of DDC I prefer to keep the amount of furniture devices at a small scale, with general purpose devices being at the forefront. Anything else should - if at all - be some 3rd party resource that may be inlined into the mod that wants them, as opposed to forcing everyone to download and have them loaded into their game all the time

Not only does an excessive amount of furnitures create an "asset bloat" in the users game, it also hinders development of authors wishing to making actual use of these furnitures. Not seeing the wood for the trees and all that

 

If anything DDC related at all, Id prefer idle and furniture markers over actual furniture objects

• Idle Markers similar to wall lean markers with actors holding hands against the imperial iron bars
• an idle marker for groping an actor in a specific furniture (with associated example on how to place them)
• idle markers for whipping an actor, with a proper whipping animation and a proper smp whip to go along that over the stick and vanilla 1h attack idle
• Sitting idles specifically for actors in an armbinder or yoke

and so on

 

More furniture feels redundant. If anything at all, then: More pillory poses, at most one pillory alternative, another chair mesh with its own 2-3 idles but even these things, not so important. I dont need more XCrosses, Gallows and I dont need BDSM .. "boxes", "through walls" walls. This kinda stuff is much too specific and exotic to ever find concrete use in a way where an XCross wouldnt get the job done as well. These things may sound good on paper but will never find actual use in game

 

Id much prefer things to interact with existing furniture, allowing to make better use of whats already there, give more detail to whats already there, actually use them to tell a story for once, instead of just being there to look nice

 

 

Take your point, and broadly I'd agree with almost everything you say

 

But there's some history to this.  When I first suggested these they would have been additional, and hopefully could have been used to add to the ZAZ and DD mod families, as I just mentioned in my reply to t.ara.  The items were knocked up OK, and disappeared.  I tweak t.ara's tail every time the general subject gets raised, just in case I get lucky ... ?

 

As for what these would do, they still did add additional story/capabilities in playing with what's available from those mods both then and now. 

 

AYGAS 'stops' at the point where you have slaves you really could do something useful with if it had existing ZAZ/DD items/furnitures actually USING the functionality that is out there, but otherwise just not available, either within them, or on a standalone basis.  That's been an underlying recurring comment for all the years I've used that mod, and something that has long long been mooted as a development that has just never happened, on a mod which is otherwise excellent.  You can get them to use ZAZ furniture indoors in training, but once trained and t/f to PAHE to use via AYGAS, it's a functional dead end

 

The issue would go away if we even justt had something like inte's POP pillory/wheel scenes, with their working functionality, available as simple standalones into which you could use to

 

- pop your AYGAS slave to into them to make some money (you can put them in ZAZ furniture now with AYGAS, but none of that actually 'functions', but it's boring, with lack of active visual boring being the problem)

 

- get the PC popped into by

 

           some bandit/other random passer by, to make them some cash, or as an

           an outcome from Simple Slavery, free use, with a tip

 

etc

 

I've dangled this in front of people as a suggestion before - think that might have included you too ? - but no one has ever bitten

 

I was actually getting to the point where I was wondering about just doing a spec for something simple, and seeing if I could commission someone to do it.  It really shouldn't be a huge endeavour, as almost everything is there already.  Just needs something simple that could be patched into those mods, or even just standalone

 

Hope that helps you see where I'm coming from

 

DQW

Edited July 5, 2023 by DonQuiWho

[naaitsab]

9 hours ago, krzp said:

But that's the thing, DD doesn't really need to change frameworks - if one wants to still use FNIS, sure, let them. Using DAR/OAR as an movement animations driver makes up DD to be finally fully compatible with Nemesis (well, at least from my user standpoint , perhaps there are differences from the animators standpoint, i can't comment on that side of the argument), and this suddenly makes it play nicely with all technological advances that happened since mr Fore retired, i.e. Precision, True Directional Movement, Tk Dodges, and the rest of them. No longer the gamers would have to choose what they want to play with, dd OR the modern mods, it should work nicely together - and that alone is why I think the sooner this happens, the better - and not as an optional patch, imo, this should a main thing (maybe keep the old FNIS version as a legacy thing or something).

 

Plus it's faster, doesn't suffer from the laggy AA application,  it's scriptless, and it's very configurable, and we can add a ton of features with a simple copy-paste. ?

I mean, setting up a proper bound bleedout idle, instead of hard coding it, can be as simple as copying a new animation into the proper folder, and this solves a ton of problems with immersion. Want to add an aroused idle? Previously one had to monitor it with a script, poll slautilscript every x seconds thru papyrus, then send an FNIS animation event - and with DAR, copy something like ft_horny_armbinder.hkx to a new folder, create a simple text config (or, with OAR, even better, do it from a nice MCM-like menu), let SKSE check the arousal faction ultra-fast, and set up a randomizer. It's beautifully easy!

 

While we are on a subject, thanks to the magnificent @HexBolt8 for helping me out with the files and a bit of testing, the LE version of DAR is done and is now resting in @Kimy's inbox along with the DAR and OAR ones for SE, what happens with them now is up to her. ?

 

If it fixes laggy AA application for my personally it would justify switching on it's own.  While FNIS was the first and still works, it's far from perfect. Especially with the advancement in more advanced, or more specific other approaches to the same goal (adding extra animations).

 

I think it would be a good idea to write the things we would need to change, or if we change nothing if we hinder the process in any way. For example if one would switch FNIS 1:1 with Nemesis and without other tweaks to DD you can't fully utilize Nemesis it's feels like a wasted effort. This could also function as a manual for those who want to switch themselves if we don't adopt it official so to speak.

 

2 hours ago, Scrab said:

More furniture feels redundant. If anything at all, then more along the lines of: More pillory poses, at most one pillory alternative, another chair mesh with its own 2-3 idles but even these things, not so important. I dont need more XCrosses, Gallows and I dont need "BDSM boxes", "through walls" walls. This kinda stuff is much too specific and exotic to ever find concrete use in a way where an XCross wouldnt get the job done as well. These things may sound good on paper but will never find actual use in game

 

Id much prefer things to interact with existing furniture, allowing to make better use of whats already there, give more detail to whats already there, actually use them to tell a story for once, instead of just being there to look nice

 

Adding animations to the current items, so they all have struggle animations (more than 1 would make it feel less 'robotic') and SL animations would greatly increase the usage for the current stuff I recon. The mods that now use it seems to focus solely on the pillory as that is only device that supports SL scenes. 

 

If new stuff would be added then a focus on other poses might be a thing to filter on. For example the box that forces the user to bend over is not a pose currently in DDC. Having another bondagepole feels a bit more of the same. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by naaitsab

[krzp]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:22 PM, krzp said:

Can anybody who's actually understands this take a look and tell me why this is a bad idea?

So, considering no one stopped me (or, perhaps, noticed ?), and considering that there is permission to post modified versions of this script, can the users of the DAR/OAR conversion test this new version with me?

 

Changes that I've made, compared to the one that's currently in the conversions posted:

 

1. deleted all the old FNIS properties

int Property ABC_h2heqp Auto
<...>

 

2. Evaluate AA and Clear AA now look like this:

Spoiler

Function EvaluateAA(actor akActor)                                                                                        

    libs.log("EvaluateAA(" + akActor + ")")
    if !libs.IsAnimating(akActor)
        Debug.SendAnimationEvent(akActor, "IdleForceDefaultState")
    EndIf
    
    libs.UpdateControls()
    
    If !HasCompatibleDevice(akActor)
        libs.log("EvaluateAA: Reverting to unbound AA")        
        ClearAA(akActor)
        RemoveBCPerks(akActor)
    Else
        ApplyBCPerks(akActor)    
    endif
EndFunction

 

Function ClearAA(actor akActor)                                                            
    if akActor != libs.PlayerRef && !akActor.isDead()
        akActor.EvaluatePackage()
        if !libs.IsAnimating(akActor)
            Debug.SendAnimationEvent(akActor, "IdleForceDefaultState")
        EndIf
    EndIf
EndFunction

 

I'm sending a IdleForceDefaultState so the idles will update quicker when something gets equipped.

 

3. Killed the ResetExternalAA function to save on some papyrus cycles (it's empty now, the function itself is still there per se, in case i've missed something that refers to it in DD's code). The logic behind this is that if the person knows about and has DAR/OAR, there's a 99.9% chances they aren't using FNIS sexy move, so no real point in having that function alongside the DAR conversion, imo? We aren't setting AA's anymore with DD anyway, so no need to reset them.

 

Feed back and thoughts would be grand. ?

 

I'll stress again - this is for the DAR/OAR versions only, don't use this if you're still on regular FNIS-AA (also, stop using FNIS-AA, lol)

 

zadBoundCombatScript.psc zadBoundCombatScript.pex

Edited July 5, 2023 by krzp

[t.ara]

Seems to me you have a problem and you will have to discuss this - "thing" for DD here.

So, if you need me, let me know.

It´s also fine if somebody else is doing that,

you can pick up the asset you like to see and use inside of DD, always fine!

But maybe you need to ask KIM which way to go.

 

Tip: New assets are offering new possibilities and more creativity for quest-mods.