Content Consumer's Alternate Starts

[Content Consumer]

I'm trying to get the creative dreams to start.  After talking to Mara, nothing happens.  Can't sleep in bed.  Dialog says I have other things to worry about

 

You mean Captured Dreams?

I'm not sure about that error. I've never seen that message, and don't know what mod it's from. You could ask in the Captured Dreams support thread though.

[myhouseatl]

 

I'm trying to get the creative dreams to start.  After talking to Mara, nothing happens.  Can't sleep in bed.  Dialog says I have other things to worry about

 

You mean Captured Dreams?

I'm not sure about that error. I've never seen that message, and don't know what mod it's from. You could ask in the Captured Dreams support thread though.

 

It doesn't look like an error.  It looks intentional. Captured dreams starts in the MCM.  However, if you have LAL installed, LAL teleports you back.  Froma what I have read on the CD GitHub, CCA overides that by choosing the  I've been enslaved! / I've been captured and bound in restrictive devices!  

The only option I see is the "I've been enslaved (CCA)".

 

GitHub:

 

 

 

As of version 3.5.3, Death Alternative is not required for SD+ to run.

DA is required if you want to trigger SD when:

•  
• you are killed by an enemy
•  
• you are killed by a trap
•  
• you are using Defeat
•  

Without DA, you can still trigger SD when:

•  
• you submit manually using the Surrender key
•  
• greedy NPCs or friendly creatures can try to enslave you directly
•  
• you are sent to a slaver using Simple Slavery
•  
• you start with a SD+ scenario using Content Consumer Alternate Start (CCAS)
•  

You don't need DA to go to Dreamworld on sleep.

 

 

I have DA installed.  Would that prevent CCA from showing the start for CD?

 

Update:  Looking at it some more, there is no CD option.  The closest one is "I am a Character in a dark tail (CCA)"

[Highborn]

I'm available for beta testing too. I really like this mod and alternate start - LAL. Might have played all the CCAS starts once to see which one would fit better for my role play.

[Content Consumer]

I'm available for beta testing too. I really like this mod and alternate start - LAL. Might have played all the CCAS starts once to see which one would fit better for my role play.

 

Added. Thanks.

[Content Consumer]

To anyone who's interested:

 

I'll be leaving in about a week for about a month or so, maybe six weeks max, so development is going to be stopping soon.

 

Some progress on the next version has been made, though. I'm sort of considering releasing it before I leave, and then just dealing with all the bug reports when I get back.

 

Here's a look at the dialogue tree for CCAS v14. It doesn't look like a circuit diagram any more... now it looks like someone squashed a bunch of cellar spiders in a book.

 

Here's the current changelog:

 

 

• Reorganized the mara statue dialogue menus. Hopefully this is a little better...
• Added a "back to previous menu" option in all submenus
• Added a new submenu to root - escaped slave, where you can pick a hold to start out in. Requires the latest DD version for the optional DD content.
• Moved the Red Wave dialogue option under the Prostitute submenu.
• Changed Bandit Honeypot scenario, now requires Bandit Honeypot mod (WIP/beta)
• Enabled the Trapped In Rubber scenario
• Removed SD+ requirement for Alicia and Dibellan Sisterhood.
• Added a "must be Nord race" requirement to the Ancient Nord Queen scenario (must be female, nord, and have sexlab stories installed). This may change in the future.
• Removed Estrus Chaurus requirement for the Chaurus Egg Breeder scenario (is an optional extra).
• Changed SD+ requirement to Sexlab Stories requirement for the Chaurus Egg Breeder scenario.
• Removed SD+ requirement from the Falmer Slave scenario (is an optional extra like all the SD+ enslavement scenarios) - note that the falmer may, in rare cases, be permanently hostile without it
• Fixed an array out of bounds error in the Surprise Me option (thanks skyrimll for catching that)
• Added the missing storageutil call to the Surprise Me option.
• A couple of changes to the Mara dialogue - typos, order issues, etc.
• Added Family Ties scenarios (currently Altmer, Breton/Redguard, Imperial, Nord, and generic Orphan) and root submenu.
• Added an Enslaved to a Seeker scenario (SD+ optional).
• Added an Enslaved to a Lurker scenario (SD+ optional).
• Added Reikling Shaman scenario (WIP/beta)
• Added a missing Inn Prostitute scenario (Ragged Flagon)
• Added a barebones "Beastess" scenario under Miscellaneous.
• Added a new Chaurus Slave scenario (SD+) because of the changes to the current Egg Breeder scenario.
• Added some new mechanics to the Witch of the Wilds scenario, new crafting benches, and new recipes. Like Bandit Honeypot, this may eventually work its way into a separate mod.
• Witch of the Wilds now sets SD+ spriggan infection to zero when starting. This can be changed in the MCM.
• Moved the Witch of the Wilds scenario out of Anise's cellar. The cave entrance/exit is now in the Rift. Cleaned up the basement and removd all my changes.
• Fixed a bug where the quest would not complete properly in the Soulgem Incubator scenario.
• Moved the "wrong way" trigger box in the Soulgem Incubator scenario closer to the starting area.
• Prevented Necromancers and some undead from being permanently friendly if taking the "bad" ending route in Soulgem Incubator.
• Added patrol markers to the Dark Counselor so he wouldn't get too busy playing with alchemy to stop the player in the Soulgem Incubator scenario
• Fixed the Dark Counselor's voice
• Updated Egg Factory scenario for version 1.7
• Fixed bad faction properties in the Egg Factory scenario
• Fixed a typo in the Egg Factory Cultist's journal.
• Completely reworked the Expectant Mother scenario from the ground up. This includes all dialogue, stages, locations, etc. Hopefully this won't be quite so buggy now.
• Updated Parasites volume 1 with new parasite
• Moved creature masters a bit farther away from the player, so script lag hopefully won't cause player damage or death.
• Added some minor things to the creature cell.
• Messed with the lighting in the creature start cell. Should be a bit better now, I hope.
• Added some missing navmesh in the creature cell (deliberately left some out though for testing).
• Moved the Falmer Slave scenario (standard SD+ enslavement) location to the creature cell.
• Moved the Spider scenario (SD+, not Arachnophobia) to the creature cell. Cleaned up blackreach.
• Added an extra Sabre Cat and Bear to the creature cell.
• Stripped out everything but the additem and modevent calls in the Egg Breeder scenario. This will prevent conflicts and extra script time with the new version of Stories/Parasites.
• Reworked Giant faction and slavetats effect. Should prevent conflicts with other mods in the Giant Offering scenario. Note - this scenario now uses custom giants, which means they will not be affected by any other mods that affect normal giants.
• Moved the SD+ Giant Slave start to Guldun Rock with a new master to prevent conflicts with the Giant Offering scenario. NB: This may or may not work properly as I have used a vanilla giant template with no aggro warning/attack settings. In practice, this *should* mean that your master is fine, but other giants will still attack you if you get too close (?). Note that since this is a templated actor with no alterations except the aggro settings, all other mods that alter giants should work.
• Added missing goodbye flag on Dremora's dialogue in the Aspiring Mage scenario
• A couple of (fairly minor) changes to the Maze of Oblivion cells.
• Added some more potions to the player's starting inventory in the Aspiring Mage scenario.
• Fixed some bad object alignment issues in the Maze of Oblivion cells.
• Added patrol markers to the Whiterun guard in the XPO scenario so he doesn't just sit in one place all day doing nothing. Users might not ever notice this unless they specifically use that scenario and even then only after getting out of prison.
• Moved starting location for Prison Overhaul closer to Whiterun
• Added a small item to the Inn Prostitute scenarios
• Fixed a typo in one of the Inn Prostitute scenarios
• Moved starting location for the Alicia scenario out of the prison (currently uses a forsworn camp).
• Changed SD+ parasite events to Kyne's Blessing events
• Added Kyne's Blessing parasites events (optional as always) to some scenarios where appropriate
• Family Ties (orphan) triggers the entry scene of the orphanage when exiting the punishment room.
• Fixed the Skooma Whore cleanup script from triggering a debug trace whenever you'd enter the area around the worker's house in Mixwater Mill regardless of whether or not you're using that scenario.
• Fixed a partially broken script in the Aspiring Mage scenario when talking to Urulaaska-Shun.
• Fixed the Forsworn scenario actor forcegreeting the player during the game if you didn't select that scenario to start.
• Changed the Orc Master (SD+ enslavement) to an orc at Bilegulch Mine
• Removed the bow and thorn rake (sword) from the Spriggan Host entry scenario, as skyrimll is adding them to the next version of Stories anyway. Kept the arrows though, because I like the look of the Riekling gear.
• Fixed a problem with mixed up Kynesgrove/Candlehearth Inn Prostitute scenarios.
• Changed the starting area in the Aspiring Mage scenario.
• Altered the mechanics of the Giant Offering scenario. Now the player is an offering specifically to the Talking Stone Giants, and not to ALL giants.
• Cleaned up .esp of unused items, spells, packages, globals, NPCs, etc. Players hopefully won't notice any difference, but it makes me happier.
• Deleted some unused meshes from the archive. Players hopefully won't notice any difference, but the archive should be a tad smaller now.
• Fixed numerous USLEEP overwrites... except the damnable Moldering Ruins issues. End users probably won't really notice anything, but take pleasure in the knowledge that CCAS is now (mostly) USLEEP-compatible.
• Renamed a lot of the topic information form scripts. Players won't notice any difference, but my sanity does.
• Changed how sexlab stats are seeded. Now 33% more better goodness!
• Added Apropos wear and tear seeding to all scenarios, if your apropos settings allow for W&T and after effects textures.
• Removed invalid race check. It's a resource hog and is too easy to bypass, making it mostly pointless.
• Fixed some missing/bad quest objectives
• Added missing north markers to some interiors
• Added some of actors to the Sexlab Forbidden faction. Should prevent enslavement, random sex, and sexist/derogatory comments.
• Added a modevent for Solstheim starts. Hopefully players won't notice any difference.

 

 

It looks bigger than it really is. (insert a "that's what she said" joke here)

 

By my count, there are currently 96 scenarios. Some of those are variants though (i.e. the Inn Prostitute scenarios, the Escaped Slave scenarios, etc). All told, there are 57 unique scenarios, up from I think about ~50 in v13.

 

And here are some pretty screenshots:

 

[thesteve812]

I'd like to get on the beta tester list too, thanks.

 

 

 

[Content Consumer]

I'd like to get on the beta tester list too, thanks.

 

Added, thanks.

[bicobus]

About the oblivion start, can we get a reward proportional to the time invested clearing the dungeon? Like spells or equipment or a little dremora hat with an inscription reading: "I've been to the oblivion realm and all I got is this stupid hat" (edit: or a tattoo!).

[Content Consumer]

About the oblivion start, can we get a reward proportional to the time invested clearing the dungeon? Like spells or equipment or a little dremora hat with an inscription reading: "I've been to the oblivion realm and all I got is this stupid hat" (edit: or a tattoo!).

 

(spoiler alert)

Interestingly, in the beta I just did the exact opposite. The last thing that happens is that you lose everything.

(/spoiler alert)

 

I agree, it's a long, forced linear intro to the game, and it makes sense to give the player something for their pains. Just remember, daedra aren't exactly nice, and your "reward" might not be a pleasant one.

[karlpaws]

About the oblivion start, can we get a reward proportional to the time invested clearing the dungeon? Like spells or equipment or a little dremora hat with an inscription reading: "I've been to the oblivion realm and all I got is this stupid hat" (edit: or a tattoo!).

 

 

 

About the oblivion start, can we get a reward proportional to the time invested clearing the dungeon? Like spells or equipment or a little dremora hat with an inscription reading: "I've been to the oblivion realm and all I got is this stupid hat" (edit: or a tattoo!).

 

(spoiler alert)

Interestingly, in the beta I just did the exact opposite. The last thing that happens is that you lose everything.

(/spoiler alert)

 

I agree, it's a long, forced linear intro to the game, and it makes sense to give the player something for their pains. Just remember, daedra aren't exactly nice, and your "reward" might not be a pleasant one.

 

 

At one time or another I think I found a total of 5 spell books, and i'm not sure if I found all of them when 2 were kinda hidden. Granted the one was custom and not terribly powerful, but it was there.

 

Grine does have a daedric woad tattoo in his package, if someone had slavetats that could probably be applied.

... by the player.

 

[bicobus]

 

About the oblivion start, can we get a reward proportional to the time invested clearing the dungeon? Like spells or equipment or a little dremora hat with an inscription reading: "I've been to the oblivion realm and all I got is this stupid hat" (edit: or a tattoo!).

 

(spoiler alert)

Interestingly, in the beta I just did the exact opposite. The last thing that happens is that you lose everything.

(/spoiler alert)

 

I agree, it's a long, forced linear intro to the game, and it makes sense to give the player something for their pains. Just remember, daedra aren't exactly nice, and your "reward" might not be a pleasant one.

 

 

In my opinion that isn't a good idea. The player has to get something from it, a story, an experience or some loot. Or in the case of a sadistic Dungeon Master like myself, I would create a Death Alternative scenario on blackout/death and transport the player back to the labyrinth after each death. The whole labyrinth would be reset mind you. But then, the lost items should be sent somewhere safe, like in a box deep in the dungeon of a bandit lord of some kind.

 

The parting gifts could be some devious devices (because we're on LL), and the keys hidden in a please easy of access. Like talking to the blacksmith in whiterun and she'll tell the player she found a set of keys some times back. How the player made it to whiterun? Heh, who knows.

 

But the feeling of emptiness after doing the whole oblivion realm is something to do away. I'm not doing it again because I get nothing out of it and I need to invest more time than I'm comfortable with for no gain. Gimme something, anything!

[Content Consumer]

At one time or another I think I found a total of 5 spell books, and i'm not sure if I found all of them when 2 were kinda hidden. Granted the one was custom and not terribly powerful, but it was there.

 

Grine does have a daedric woad tattoo in his package, if someone had slavetats that could probably be applied.

... by the player.

 

The custom one is hard to find, well guarded, and has a weak effect. I primarily included it as a way to distract the storm atronachs in a very early version - I had dozens of them lining the hallways in the black cell back then, and at high difficulty levels this proved too hard to play. I've since cut down their numbers, changed their positions, and modified the navmesh so there are plenty of places to stand where they can't get to you (this is true of all cells in the Aspiring Mage start BTW). I can actually get rid of that spellbook entirely. I'll go ahead and keep it as some sort of minor reward. Who knows - maybe late-game players can find a use for it against a horde of skeevers.

 

The Grine Daedric tattoo is a good one. You've given me a great idea there actually... (see below after the first bullet list)

 

 

In my opinion that isn't a good idea. The player has to get something from it, a story, an experience or some loot. Or in the case of a sadistic Dungeon Master like myself, I would create a Death Alternative scenario on blackout/death and transport the player back to the labyrinth after each death. The whole labyrinth would be reset mind you. But then, the lost items should be sent somewhere safe, like in a box deep in the dungeon of a bandit lord of some kind.

 

The parting gifts could be some devious devices (because we're on LL), and the keys hidden in a please easy of access. Like talking to the blacksmith in whiterun and she'll tell the player she found a set of keys some times back. How the player made it to whiterun? Heh, who knows.

 

But the feeling of emptiness after doing the whole oblivion realm is something to do away. I'm not doing it again because I get nothing out of it and I need to invest more time than I'm comfortable with for no gain. Gimme something, anything!

 

There are several conflicting concepts going on here. I shall marshal my arguments thusly:

• The maze represents a significant amount of time and effort to get through. Any player using this scenario should be rewarded. The loot found in v13 is, while somewhat more than any of the other scenarios (including vanilla LAL ones), not outstandingly greater in number or value. This is fine, except...
• When I played through it the last time (before stripping the player), I ended up finding so much stuff - food, armor, clothing, spellbooks, gems, ingredients, etc. that I felt extremely wealthy. This is partly due to the fact that I've added a couple of new sections, and by judicious looting in the old and new areas you can find a lot of stuff, ranging from value-less baskets all the way up to advanced spellbooks. I didn't want to have a game "start" that essentially made the player wealthy enough to buy Breezehome, because it wouldn't fit with any of the other scenarios. So I stripped the player of all belongings when ending. This has two problems - it is essentially punishing the player for succeeding, and putting a penniless player down in the middle of nowhere (Nightgate Inn) is extremely harsh.
• I can justify the first by hand-waving it with a vague explanation of "daedra are mean" and leave it at that. You would expect that of the Daedra, particularly a servant of Molag Bal (Urulaaska-Shun is a servant of Bal). Your "reward" in this case is a rape, possibly leading to pregnancy. Stealing your gear is just the cherry on top.
• I cannot justify the second, particularly after stealing your gear. I got around it by moving the location you end up to Whiterun, which actually fits much better with the newly-added last part of the maze. You are no longer naked and penniless in the middle of a frozen wasteland, but in a nicely populated place.
• Users of needs mods or frostfall will have some problems with all of this, which I feel is offset by users of prostitution mods or even just players who do a couple of quests first. The skill levels and spells you've learned in the maze will help you do even things like Andurs' quest, and by completing all of the quests in Whiterun that don't actually send you out of the city, you can get enough money and reward gear to clothe, feed, and house you, at least for a couple of days. Even without resorting to prostitution.
• Being dropped into Whiterun without any equipment is easier on the player than, for example, being dropped into the middle of the ocean using a "left for dead" scenario.
• But now we're back to the "emptiness" feeling. Playing through that scenario and ending up with nothing is great for hardcore gamers and people who enjoy beating a game - that is, conquering the mechanics and surpassing the designers' expectations - but doesn't do much for folks who just want to play an interesting scenario before starting the game proper. To cater to a wider audience than just myself, I've got to leave in some of the "challenge" while simultaneously rewarding the player for using CCAS rather than punishing them. So the anticlimax of ending up with nothing after working through the maze definitely does need to be addressed. While ending up bruised, battered, naked, alone, raped, and impregnated by a demon after navigating a dark and scary maze is fine for roleplaying, it kind of sucks for game-playing. If you're not having fun playing the game, it doesn't matter how pretty the game looks.

So...

Your idea about adding devious devices is a good one. Karlpaws' idea about adding a tattoo is also a good one. So here's what I'm thinking now. (spoiler alert)

• The reason the Dremora strips you down is because you "stole" his key. Instead of doing that, he can offer the player a choice - keep the key, or keep everything else. That is, keep a worthless key that does nothing, or keep all your hard-earned loot.
• I'm assuming most players will keep the loot. Only the insane, mentally incompetent, or adventurous will keep the key.
• In any case, you also get devices and a tattoo applied. I'd prefer to make custom devices for this, with fancy textures and the like, but I can't do that without making Devious Devices a dependency (the new modevents allow for adding of generic registered devices without dependency). In any case, at the very least a set of cuffs and a collar would be a good addition. About the tattoo - I'll use Grine's Daedric tattoo, it's a good one, using slavetats. In both cases, players without those mods won't have the effect, but there's nothing much I can do about that. I'd like to lock the tattoo to the player, and I've been looking at how QAYL does it this morning. As far as I can tell, it's all handled in the json file with an extra parameter, so it should be easy enough. I'll do some testing tonight. In any case, I can use Slavetats Events Bridge to do it, which might be easier.
• Back to the key - I can't use it to unlock a device, because of the DD dependency issue. At least, not directly - I might be able to get around that, actually. But I'm thinking more about the locked tattoo. Nobody wants to play the entire game with a tattoo they can't get rid of, particularly one with some form of negative magical effect. So that's where the key comes in. Players who stick with the key can take it somewhere - maybe a mage at the College of Winterhold, maybe somebody else - and have him/her "unlock" the tattoo using the key. You can get out of generic devious devices using generic keys, but the only way out of the tattoo is by using the key. Suck it, people who thought keeping the key instead of the loot was a bad idea!

That way people will get a reward either way, though one reward is considerably less than the other.

Whaddya think?

 

 I would create a Death Alternative scenario on blackout/death and transport the player back to the labyrinth after each death. The whole labyrinth would be reset mind you.

I have a couple of problems with that.

• The first is that I don't know how to make a DA scenario. There is a guide to doing that, but the last time I checked it looked a little difficult to follow. I'll check again.
• The second is that "resetting" the labyrinth is time consuming to set up. I've already got dozens (literally) of time-consuming things on my CCAS to-do list, and the more I add to it, the less energy I seem to have for any of it.

In general, it's a good idea, and I will certainly look into doing that. But probably not for a while.

Right now I'm trying to find the time to work on the forced marriage scenario, riekling shaman scenario, fixing bugs, bandit honeypot, witch of the wilds, and Simple Slavery tie-ins. I'm considering taking the Riekling Shaman, Witch of the Wilds, and Aspiring Mage scenarios and converting them into entirely separate mods, just like the Bandit Honeypot one already is. For that matter, the Forced Marriage scenario could also benefit from more unique work. My ideas for those have grown significantly and now no longer really qualify as simple "start" scenarios.

[bicobus]

The dremora can act like the genie from Cyanide & Happiness: "Sure, I can send you back to skyrim, but if you don't leave that loot - that you found in my realm - here you'll find yourself in a dire predicament."

 

I'm not quite sure about giving any debuff to the tattoo though. Maybe a little humorous twist that doesn't really affect a long term game even if it stays active? Something like: you get 100% frost resistance while naked, but if you are wearing clothes (if the tattoo is hidden) you get aroused twice as fast.

 

Also remember that for the various "needs" mods or frostfall, they don't get started right away. Thus dropping the player naked in the middle of a lake wouldn't be too annoying. I'm thinking about the one near Riverside, which is close to the vanilla starting area. To visualize it, see the player appearing 10 meters on top of the lake then "splash", then swim, then "help me out of this bondage" in riverwood/whiterun.

 

Anyhow, what you said is alright as long as the end result doesn't make me (the player) feel like I wasted my time.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

There are several conflicting concepts going on here. I shall marshal my arguments thusly:

• The maze represents a significant amount of time and effort to get through. Any player using this scenario should be rewarded. The loot found in v13 is, while somewhat more than any of the other scenarios (including vanilla LAL ones), not outstandingly greater in number or value. This is fine, except...
• When I played through it the last time (before stripping the player), I ended up finding so much stuff - food, armor, clothing, spellbooks, gems, ingredients, etc. that I felt extremely wealthy. This is partly due to the fact that I've added a couple of new sections, and by judicious looting in the old and new areas you can find a lot of stuff, ranging from value-less baskets all the way up to advanced spellbooks. I didn't want to have a game "start" that essentially made the player wealthy enough to buy Breezehome, because it wouldn't fit with any of the other scenarios. 

After reading the whole thing, i don't think it'll change your mind on that one, but in general i as a (role)player don't think it's a bad thing to have a start which leaves you pretty rich. It doesn't matter if it fits to the other scenarios, because i'm not playing those right now. I can understand that - as the developer - you might have the feeling that your starts should be somewhat balanced, but i disagree. It's totally fine to have a lot of starts just for a bit difference, but if some make some more difference, i'm all up for it.

 

For example, one character i loved to play was a very busty, little but stupid, and very rich bitch (i assume she got it from her parents) which avioded any work or fight any way she could. It made a lot of LL mods a lot more logical to play them with her.

So imho each scenario should only fit to itself (and dependencies maybe), but not care about others.

 

So... i'd be pretty much fine with any scenario you make up. No matter if i'm naked (and maybe even bound) in the middle of nowhere or rich as hell (or both, a lesson that you can't eat gold, nor use coins as clothes. ) Actually i think devious devices are much worse for gameplay than losing clothes, AND i'm really glad i've read about your plans... what i really hate are debuffs i can't change anymore. At least, if they don't fit the role i had in mind starting this game. It would be fine for the one mentioned above. 

 

Finally: what about a third option (not solving the final debuff, though). You can keep the key, you can keep the stuff, or you can get a promise. That promise would be keys for the devices, i'm not sure if that can be done without DD dependency, i imagine in case it isn't installed you wouldn't get anything for that choice - no devices and no keys. In case it is installed you get some in your inventory or a questmarker to a chest somewhere in or around whiterun. 

Or maybe Solitude, we're still talking about daedra, right?

 

*edit: the probably meanest option would be: check if cursed loot is installed, and point to the dollmaker in dawnstar. She will give you keys... but you have to work a lot for them.

[bicobus]

Right, forgot about the argument about wealth. I'm with Nazzzgul666 with that one: your starting wealth doesn't matter, it's how you spend it that matters. It's the whole point of the different LAL scenarios after all. If you explore a giant and dangerous oblivion realm, you're bound to gain (or lose) stuff. Knowledge, weapons, magical abilities. It's not small feat to go to oblivion and back.

[tinkerbelle]

One idea I haven't seen is to base punishment/reward on the difficulty level.  Easy would leave one with all kinds of nifty loot, Medium might get one abused and left with a few minor items, Hardcore, well, let's just say naked (except for some devious devices), pregnant and broke in the middle of nowhere.

 

tinkerbelle

 

[karlpaws]

Regarding wealth and such... vanilla LAL (I think) had both a left for dead scenario that gave you prisoner rags and maybe a knife in a wilderness area and ownership of Proudspire Manor.  Starts don't have to have equal outcomes because they will be used for different plays by different people with different goals.

 

Not every start has to be for everyone. Some are more for the RPers and some more for the game players. Having some starts that some people will never play should be fine.

 

A mage start that leaves me with little more than more spells and some experience in those spell schools is more than enough. Whiterun and the other walled cities do have plenty to do without leaving the city, though some of the quests do need the game "started" or a location change to activate. People will likely need to head outside the walls and come back in, but then you always had to do that anyway.

 

I kinda like that two states tattoo thing though. A positive effect when showing everyone you're marked. I think there were a couple mods that created problems for people displaying daedric influence and some that did general negative comments or such for a variety of things. Increased arousal or just loss of bonus, similar to the Dibella Defender mod might be easier.

[Content Consumer]

I'm not quite sure about giving any debuff to the tattoo though. Maybe a little humorous twist that doesn't really affect a long term game even if it stays active? Something like: you get 100% frost resistance while naked, but if you are wearing clothes (if the tattoo is hidden) you get aroused twice as fast.

I was thinking I'd try to make it depend on race, actually.

Altmer - Damage magicka regen

Argonian - Weakness to disease

Bosmer - Weakness to poison

Breton - Weakness to magic

Dunmer - Weakness to fire

Imperial - ???

Khajiit - ???

Nord - Weakness to frost

Orc - Damage health regen

Redguard - Damage stamina regen

 

The ??? can be something like slow movement speed, weakness to shock... I dunno. Maybe a speechcraft debuff for Imperials. I've no idea for nonvanilla races.

I'll probably chicken out and just do something generic to all races though. Your suggestion about arousal is a good one - maybe something irritating but not harmful, like QAYL's arousal meatstamp.

 

Thus dropping the player naked in the middle of a lake wouldn't be too annoying.

Actually, I have a scenario in mind that does just that. IIRC somebody in this thread suggested it. I was planning on tying it somehow to Tarhiel.

 

I can understand that - as the developer - you might have the feeling that your starts should be somewhat balanced

I do have that, but:

 

Starts don't have to have equal outcomes because they will be used for different plays by different people with different goals.

Right, forgot about the argument about wealth. I'm with Nazzzgul666 with that one: your starting wealth doesn't matter, it's how you spend it that matters.

So imho each scenario should only fit to itself (and dependencies maybe), but not care about others.

This is an excellent point.

 

One of my problems is that I frequently get trapped into conceptual dead-ends. I look at the vanilla game, and remember that by the time you leave Helgen you have a suit of armor, some food and drink, a couple of weapons, and (depending on your Official Acquisitiveness Rating) a whole bunch of imperial or stormcloak stuff and iron weapons. Compare that to my most-used LAL start (camping in the woods), which becomes my baseline... I then get into the habit of misliking anything that puts wealth too high or too low. Which is silly.

 

One idea I haven't seen is to base punishment/reward on the difficulty level.

Interesting notion. You mean based on the vanilla difficulty setting? I'm not sure if there's even a papyrus condition function that references that. Or a global? I should look into it.

 

For example, one character i loved to play was a very busty, little but stupid, and very rich bitch

You should check out Sexlab Hormones.

 

That promise would be keys for the devices, i'm not sure if that can be done without DD dependency

Currently, no. The development build gives me the ability to add generic devices without making DD a dependency, but not keys. I can use getformfromfile() (inside a getmodbyname() check) to do so, but I'd rather not do that more than absolutely necessary.

 

edit: the probably meanest option would be: check if cursed loot is installed, and point to the dollmaker in dawnstar. She will give you keys... but you have to work a lot for them.

Actually, I had a plan to include lots of Cursed Loot scenarios at one point, but then I realized that Cursed Loot has its own alternate start integration for those. So why duplicate?

 

though some of the quests do need the game "started" or a location change to activate. People will likely need to head outside the walls and come back in, but then you always had to do that anyway.

Really? I didn't know there were any quests like that. The closest that comes to mind is Blood on the Ice.

[bicobus]

 

though some of the quests do need the game "started" or a location change to activate. People will likely need to head outside the walls and come back in, but then you always had to do that anyway.

Really? I didn't know there were any quests like that. The closest that comes to mind is Blood on the Ice.

 

 

For instance with LAL "unbound" quest. You can enter helgen's keep and go down the path until you get to a dead end. If you TCL through the rubble to get into the cave, the LAL quest won't be active and you won't be able to talk to the wounded NPCs. You need to get outside and enter the cave the "right" way.

[karlpaws]

 

 

though some of the quests do need the game "started" or a location change to activate. People will likely need to head outside the walls and come back in, but then you always had to do that anyway.

Really? I didn't know there were any quests like that. The closest that comes to mind is Blood on the Ice.

 

 

For instance with LAL "unbound" quest. You can enter helgen's keep and go down the path until you get to a dead end. If you TCL through the rubble to get into the cave, the LAL quest won't be active and you won't be able to talk to the wounded NPCs. You need to get outside and enter the cave the "right" way.

 

 

The LAL quest is because that is where the quest update trigger is located, because you're not supposed to get through the other way.

 

Blood on the Ice is Exhibit A in Bethesda quest stupidity. Nuff said.

 

Some quests seem to depend on Unbound being completed but I think that is just my impatience or something else.  A number of the Whiterun fetch quests in particular have mentioned on the various wikis that you need to enter the city once, leave, return and then they will be available. Ysolda's tusk fetch, Adrianne's sword delivery and another I'm forgetting seem to have this. Amren's sword quest does not, as that scene will trigger when you enter the city, but if it isn't daytime he and his wife will walk out of their house, down to the blacksmith's, up that path to the market and up the steps before reaching their destination just around the corner.  Depending on how much I want to "do it right" I will wait outside and enter sometime after 8 am. Other starts in Markarth require some tricks too. The dog seller outside does not give you the quest to take food in all the time, the silver vendor won't give you the ring for Calcelmo though I think Bothela will give you the potion for the steward as long as the shop is open.  The silver vendor is probably most tied to the scene because her dialog options are limited until you've left and returned and her scene with her husband plays out.

 

 

I dunno. Maybe a speechcraft debuff for Imperials.

 

Are you thinking to reverse the racial buff entirely and give a minor penalty or just debuff them down to 0 bonus? A penalty to magica, regen or Conjuration skill would be appropriate given the circumstances. Possibly all three (with varying levels based on race if you want flavor).

 

 

planning on tying it somehow to Tarhiel.

 

With some extra play on Solsteim I have run across a bosmer in a random encounter that is talking to himself, casts a master level spell (two hands moving, magic thrown at the ground, etc) and he goes flying up in the air, then predictably lands with a bounce.

 

 

You mean based on the vanilla difficulty setting? I'm not sure if there's even a papyrus condition function that references that.

 

If there isn't a way to determine what level a player is on, possibly a dialog choice either early in the start or something through the daedra would let the player choose. A kind of "get what you wish for" from a riddle type question similar to what Morrowind used in character creation?

[Content Consumer]

Blood on the Ice is Exhibit A in Bethesda quest stupidity. Nuff said.

It's a real shame, too. Great concept, that one. When you look at how they did Canvas the Castle, for example, it could have been much better.

 

Are you thinking to reverse the racial buff entirely and give a minor penalty or just debuff them down to 0 bonus?

Considering the lack of utility Speechcraft has in general (I think the only other skill tree with less play is probably the Pickpocket one), a large debuff seems reasonable. I don't know about down to zero, but maybe -25 or so? Same with the other debuffs, medium-strength depending on the initial bonus. a 50% resistance to Frost should net a -25% weakness, something like that. Players won't be penalized more than they are otherwise, but those who have come to rely on the racial attribute (probably, at a generous estimate, like 0.0001% of all players ) will have some adjusting to do.

 

Part of the problem - at least for me - is that so many debuffs aren't readily apparent. I mean that for the most part, a 25% weakness to frost will almost never be noticed at all. With a game like this, ideal debuffs should be immediately apparent in some way - slowdown is a good one. IMODs are good too, though they conflict with most ENBs. A debuff I haven't seen many people use is weapon speed mult. Magicka regen is a good one, as is stamina regen. Health regen not so much. There are a couple of others, but in my opinion, stuff like elemental resistances are kind of pointless for both positive and negative values unless you're up against a difficulty wall.

Fallout 4, for example, dealt with the "radiation" issue very nicely. A simple health debuff wouldn't do it, because players might not notice until it's too late. Stat debuffs (like in Fallout 3) are similar - players probably wouldn't notice, at least at first, because that kind of thing isn't really visible.

A good debuff in any sort of game is one that really affects the game. 25% weakness to an element is only a viable choice if you're in a situation where attacks made by that element are very common. In a computer game, things that provide definite, strong audio or visual cues are good. Visceral ones (like slowdown) or those that impact the most commonly used mechanics are also good. Stat buffs that you aren't even sure you have until you open a menu and check are not.

tl,dr: I'd want to make it something highly noticeable, but not necessarily crippling.

 

 

With some extra play on Solsteim I have run across a bosmer in a random encounter that is talking to himself, casts a master level spell (two hands moving, magic thrown at the ground, etc) and he goes flying up in the air, then predictably lands with a bounce.

No kidding? I haven't found that one. Nice to know. I'll be looking forward to it.

 

If there isn't a way to determine what level a player is on, possibly a dialog choice either early in the start or something through the daedra would let the player choose. A kind of "get what you wish for" from a riddle type question similar to what Morrowind used in character creation?

Another good idea. A dialogue choice, or a forked path, or maybe even tie it in somehow with which spellbook you pick up first from the altar. Lots of possibilities here.

[bicobus]

Right, debuff don't matter much. I mean, I don't even know how much damage I'm being shielded from with my armor, there is just a number that means nothing to me. -25% frost resistance... Based on what? Playing with ordinator, you feel the different perks when they kick in. And you feel when your enemy has some nasty perks too. It goes from "well, I'm tanking alright." to "this bandit simply murdered me with his giant hammer.".

 

A noticeable and annoying debuff comes with realistic needs and diseases, when the player get a disease and the associated fatigue kicks in. Your character get tired very quickly and gives an incentive to get cured. Being low level, debuffs are more important to deal with because you have practically nothing to help you. Higher levels don't give a damn because there is so much stuff you have access to that a small minus here and there wouldn't drastically change the way you play.

 

I have no idea how to create something annoying and inherently devious without depending on existing mods. I mean, you could have a tat that transform the PC into a soulgem oven by constantly spawning new gems into the proper orifice, or a milkmaid by magically pumping the PC body with lactacid, or make the PC unable to walk with something other than pony boots.

[xeivous]

The problem with debuffing skills I think is that not everyone uses the vanilla perks. Many of the overhauls make speech actually useful. Targeting more directly what your intentions with the debuff might be a better idea.

 

Like if you wanna cripple the player's ability to sell shit, debuff their ability to sell shit directly and not just the speech skill.

[Content Consumer]

The problem with debuffing skills I think is that not everyone uses the vanilla perks. Many of the overhauls make speech actually useful. Targeting more directly what your intentions with the debuff might be a better idea.

 

Like if you wanna cripple the player's ability to sell shit, debuff their ability to sell shit directly and not just the speech skill.

 

That makes sense, except there are mods that alter that already. For instance, compare Ordinator and Trade and Barter. They're roughly the same popularity (in Nexus endorsements) so it is logical to assume that just as many people use the perk mod as use the economy mod.

 

I realize that Ordinator isn't the most popular perk overhaul mod - I think it's probably PerMa, at least I keep reading about it - but I wanted to pick a couple of mods that were pretty close in endorsement count. If I pick Trade and Barter and PerMa, that's about 75% instead of just about the same.

 

So I'd suggest that for every person who uses a perk mod that (continuing the above example) alters speechcraft, there are almost as many people (possibly the same people) who use an economy mod that alters buying and selling directly.

 

I can either say "fuck it" and do my own thing and let the rest of the modding world go hang, or I can try to accommodate other mods - at least the more commonly used ones. The first is a lot easier on me, but the second is better for the majority of users.

 

So I've got to find magical effects for buff and debuff that are, if not uncommon, at least don't interfere with other mods. And they also have to be immediately apparent, or have a dramatic impact on gameplay. Which drastically limits my options.

 

Here are some of my vague thoughts on the matter.

• Slowdown is a good one, but it's approaching a problem where all too many mods use it. Needs mods, disease mods, devious devices... they're all common enough (particularly here) that I don't want to get too heavy into slowdown.
• Another good one is weapon attack speed - that can be altered globally via perk, and very few mods affect it at all, and then only in very specific instances (at least, I'm not aware of very many that do). Of course, that only affects weapon users, not spellcasters. The same applies the other way around too - blocking spellcasting (if that's even possible) only affects mages, not fighters.
• IMODs are excellent, but unfortunately conflict with various ENBs, which are too many and varied to try to come to some sort of compromise. Not to mention that so many mods use IMODs I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a truly unique and fitting one.
• Tattoos are good too, but only affect people who play in third person. (NB for Fallout 4 mod makers: this doesn't hold much water in Fo4 due to the way the camera keeps bouncing back and forth between the speakers in a conversation).
• Direct (integer) stat buffs and debuffs are only readily apparent at very low levels. A -50 to health is devastating at level 1, but trivial at level 70. It might not even be noticed at all. Percentage stat buffs are a little better, in that level has less of an impact. The same applies to regeneration, skills, and resistances. Too easily overlooked except in very specific circumstances.
• Audio cues are almost as good as visual cues. The only mod I've seen that uses audio in its buffs/debuffs (besides some DD side-effects) is Realistic Sleep (and it has a serious bug, but that's probably just the mod and not the concept).
• Cloak spells might be good. There's a lot of hate floating around about cloak spells, but in this case I'm not talking about a wide-area cloak spell that attaches scripts to NPCs or something, I'm talking about something more like the vanilla flame/frost/shock cloak spells. They can provide a nice visual cue in first or third person, and don't interfere with anything much (but IIRC there's some problem with summoning spells being canceled when using cloaks?). And a purely visual thing can be a debuff - it doesn't have to affect the character at all, but like an IMOD, if it covers the screen with some sort of shimmer effect (or whatever), it can be distracting enough that players will want to get rid of it. Personally, I don't use the vanilla elemental cloak spells any more, because they cover far too much of my vision in combat.
• Cursed items. Devious Devices pretty much covers this, but it is certainly possible to create items that take up body slots and cannot be removed. Vanilla slot items like rings and amulets, for example. If you've just found (or enchanted) a powerful magic ring, you want to wear it - you don't want to be forced to not wear it because some stupid cursed thing is taking up your ring finger. The Cursed Ring of Hircine is an excellent example of this - much like devious devices, it takes up a slot, can't be removed, and randomly does something nasty to the player. Note that "cursed" items also applies to items that provide a very good bonus in one way but some form of penalty in another. Like every single goddamn unique gun in Borderlands 2. 
• Adaptive buffs and debuffs are rarely used too. Only one mod comes to mind, and that's Devious Training (IIRC there was also a mod that blocked various sex animations until you gained sexual experience, but I can't remember what it was). A debuff that disables spellcasting is meaningless to a pure fighter, but deadly to a dedicated spellcaster, so an adaptive debuff is the answer. Some form of debuff that periodically checks your highest skill and applies a penalty to that skill (or that skill's use) would be a good one. This applies to ramping effects too.
• Mod integration. Bicobus mentioned a tattoo that turned you into a soulgem factory, and this concept can be used with lots of mods. Is your character wearing a chastity belt? Pump arousal up to 100 and watch the poor girl stop walking to masturbate. Is Egg Factory installed? Forcefeed a dozen pregnancy draughts and watch her pop. Frostfall? Silently unequip all her gear when it starts snowing. Parasites? You should never have visited Froki's shack, you've been infected with spriggan sap! And so on.
• Obscure mechanics are a good place to put effects too. Buying and selling prices aren't something people think about usually, until a perk mod or economy mod comes along. What about other things though? Suppose you get hit on the head and develop amnesia, disabling all map markers? Fast-travel folks would have to go find them all again (this one in particular would hit me hard)! I wouldn't usually recommend messing with timerate, but that's another option. What about skill progression rates? Very few mods affect that in any way at all, so a debuff that doesn't touch skills directly but prevents you from learning any more would be quite a problem. I'm sure there are a bunch of game vars that could stand some attention.  Death is a good mechanic, but DAYMOYL, Defeat, and other mods already have a lock on that.
• When in doubt, steal other people's ideas. How about a time warp? Apocalypse Magic has an interesting spell (can't remember which one) that, when you cast it, sets a marker at your current position. You can then walk around, fight, whatever, for like 10 seconds, then get teleported back to the marker. Dammit, it took me ten minutes to climb that mountain, and now I'm back at the foot (apocalypse has a lot of great effects, actually).

[daedal]

i volunteer as tribute