Why not on Nexus?

[cornbreadtm]

A few example of child-like followers here on LL which work with sex mods right out of the box or could be easily made 'compatible'.

 

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1408-meyla-the-berzerker-female-child-companion/

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1411-xunianas-nessa-follower/

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/513-lost-children-of-sky/

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/464-child-followers-liette-and-natesse-standalone/

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/436-liette-child-follower/

 

The thing is, if you go down the road and make rules around what people could potentially do, you're going down the wrong road. The last consequence would then be to ban anything related to sex, because someone can and will use the tools you provide them with to make something work that you don't want to see.

 

 

"would not be" I assume you mean, I haven't left. I'm aware of the Donkey fiasco, he created a lot of the animations that I added to Sexout and we worked together pretty closely. I was sorry to see him go, though I understand why he did.

 

Multiple edits in quick succession do that to me. My apologies.

 

The main rule is: no pics. If people do use those mods with Sexlab it's their own business and you wouldn't know just from roaming the site. Hell most people here probably didn't even know they could. It's not even allowed on the Japanese sites I frequent. So it's not a problem.

 

People making child follower mods aren't the same as Ashal who makes Sexlab, so they are in no way connected. So any one making a child follower mod isn't required to make them compatible with Sexlab in the sense that they are marked children.

 

[prideslayer]

The thing is, if you go down the road and make rules around what people could potentially do, you're going down the wrong road. The last consequence would then be to ban anything related to sex, because someone can and will use the tools you provide them with to make something work that you don't want to see.

 

This is true and trying to ban mods on either side of the "if combined, evil" divide is impossible. I was speaking from the point of view of a modder working on something on one side of that divide, not suggesting rules. Is sexout compatible with any of those? I don't know. I hope not. When I have a little more time I'll check, and if it is, I'll fix it.

[...0...]

Visit everyday nexus and download regular mods there, have nothing agains nexus.

[Erundil]

Visit everyday nexus and download regular mods there, have nothing agains nexus.

I'd probably do the same - visit Nexus and have nothing against it, if they didn't ban me and then blacklist my IP adress completely.

If you're curious what I've done to bring this upon myself, I'll explain. I made a mod and placed "compatible with XYZ from LoversLab" in description.

 

I'd be very happy if someone migrated the most important Nexus mods somewhere else (like UNP, RaceMenu, SkyUI...)

I try not to hate Nexus openly, but I do have developed a deep resentment to Nexus moderators and I don't believe it's my fault.

[Loogie]

rape exists because of humans

 

Also because of ducks.

[Acornus]

Just to add, part of the problem is also the community. The bigger it becomes, the tighter the rules have to be to manage it, especially if it gets out of hand with the user feedback. This can lead to some draconian situations.

 

The mod (can't recall name) which was uploaded that had religious themes in it with Jesus and stuff (the author wanted to recreate Jesus and his story in Skyrim) was constantly reported by a plethora of users. It got so bad, that one of the Moderators has to close the thread and essentially told people to 'knock it off, there is nothing wrong with this mod, stop reporting it for no reason'.

 

Same issue with several smaller/younger female characters, the Moderators were being swamped with reports on the files themselves as being flagged for "pedophilia" and such, it was hilarious, because during the drama around the female vampire (called Farida or something?), one other mod got reported for the same reasons, and it had a full grown ass woman in it.

 

With almost 40K files (Warhammer not included), and with over 5 million registered users iirc, I would say even if 1% of them report a file, for whatever reason, that is about 50K bollocks you have to taste about how a mod that has Jesus look alike in it "hurting muh feelings".

[quin666]

This going replace nexus silly server potato topic? Because can't see difference between this topic and other one. Far as modding websites go nobody like each other for whatever reason. That how internet work. Sad part is never going change. I'm not a modder, I'm just ahead curve when come drama related stuff.

 

 

[GrimReaper]

This is true and trying to ban mods on either side of the "if combined, evil" divide is impossible. I was speaking from the point of view of a modder working on something on one side of that divide, not suggesting rules. Is sexout compatible with any of those? I don't know. I hope not. When I have a little more time I'll check, and if it is, I'll fix it.

 

 

Well, I followed some links from /tesg/ a while ago and one site had instructions on how to bypass... sexout's or sexlab's, I don't remember anymore, restrictions when it comes to children. I guess it's like copy protection, no matter how good it is, someone will eventually find a way to crack it open.

 

I personally think no one can be held responsible for what other people do with the things you give them. If I give someone a spoon and that person murders someone else with said spoon, it's hardly my fault. And it certainly shouldn't encourage you to never again give someone a spoon because in theory, they could use the spoon you give them to do something horrible.

[prideslayer]

 

This is true and trying to ban mods on either side of the "if combined, evil" divide is impossible. I was speaking from the point of view of a modder working on something on one side of that divide, not suggesting rules. Is sexout compatible with any of those? I don't know. I hope not. When I have a little more time I'll check, and if it is, I'll fix it.

 

Well, I followed some links from /tesg/ a while ago and one site had instructions on how to bypass... sexout's or sexlab's, I don't remember anymore, restrictions when it comes to children. I guess it's like copy protection, no matter how good it is, someone will eventually find a way to crack it open.

 

If push comes to shove, I can and will implement the protections in such a way that the only reasonable ways around it will be to use old versions of sexout, or fork it the old version and try to re-implement subsequent updates. Right now the situation doesn't strike me as widespread enough to warrant it.

 

I personally think no one can be held responsible for what other people do with the things you give them.

Let me make this clear: I cannot be held responsible by others, but that does not mean that I feel no responsibility. I put these protections in place not because I'm worried that other people will blame me if I don't -- but because I personally want them there.

[Kpnut]

 

I personally think no one can be held responsible for what other people do with the things you give them. If I give someone a spoon and that person murders someone else with said spoon, it's hardly my fault. And it certainly shouldn't encourage you to never again give someone a spoon because in theory, they could use the spoon you give them to do something horrible.

The mention of the spoon reminded me of this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y

 

But still you're right you can't be HELD responsible for what someone else does with something you gave them, but as prideslayer said you can still feel responsible for it even though the only thing you had anything to do with it is giving them the tool to do it with on the assumption that they didn't or couldn't do anything you didn't want them to do with it.

[Duoleb The Chosen]

TL;DR

 

 LL is full of sickfukery

[Kendo 2]

 This is true and trying to ban mods on either side of the "if combined, evil" divide is impossible. I was speaking from the point of view of a modder working on something on one side of that divide, not suggesting rules. Is sexout compatible with any of those? I don't know. I hope not. When I have a little more time I'll check, and if it is, I'll fix it.

People took my Chrysalis Bar and Grill mod for FO3 and made it work with Children of the Wasteland and they now have little girls stage and lap dancing.  They took my mod meant for an adult representation of a topless bar turned it into a pedophile's Wonderland.  I ain't happy about that in the least, but what I could I have done to prevent it?  I could have put conditions (ischild=0) for every package and line of dialogue but what would that have accomplished?  I didn't do that because it never occurred to me that fucked up people would twist and pervert what I made.

 

There is no stopping people if they are determined.  I was even attacked personally at Nexus for putting a proviso on my mod pages that loli/shojo conversions would not be allowed.

[prideslayer]

Well, two things.

 

1) If you put important things in a script along with the checks, you can delete the script source from the plugin with FNVEdit. This makes it impossible to modify and must be reconstructed, as I don't believe there is a script decompiler that works for FO3/FONV like there is for Skyrim.

 

2) I'm the author of NX as well. I'll put fucking strong crypto in there if I have to, and take it closed source, if it comes to that. I have some experience in this field. If a determined person wants to get around it, they'll be able to, but it's not something your average (or above average) modder will be capable of doing.

[Kendo 2]

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  I know there are older versions of Sexout that were made workable with kids.  It was on the same Jap web site where they had the Chrysalis mod and nude versions kiwi's COW meshes and textures.  The laws in Japan have changed but that doesn't mean they aren't still out there.  Like you said, if it becomes a problem you can hard wire Sexout to slam the door shut on casual mod tinkerers.

 

What is a real shame is that these considerations are being batted around at all. 

[cornbreadtm]

Honestly. NV has almost no children in it compared to FO3. Sexout is pretty much only available on FNV, and you have to put in work to get TTWs working while most people don't cause, work. If people are playing with kids in that game. Then they really like kids and you're not going to stop them no matter what you do. They will literally gut your mod to get what they want.

 

My advise don't worry about it. It isn't your problem. Car companies don't sit around all day wondering how they make their white vans pedophile proof. So why should you?

[prideslayer]

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  I know there are older versions of Sexout that were made workable with kids.  It was on the same Jap web site where they had the Chrysalis mod and nude versions kiwi's COW meshes and textures.  The laws in Japan have changed but that doesn't mean they aren't still out there.  Like you said, if it becomes a problem you can hard wire Sexout to slam the door shut on casual mod tinkerers.

 

What is a real shame is that these considerations are being batted around at all. 

Yes, that's my intention, and I feel the same way. I don't want to waste time on shit like this, but I will if I feel I have to.

 

They will literally gut your mod to get what they want.

My intention is, if push comes to shove, force them to do exactly that.

 

My advise don't worry about it. It isn't your problem. Car companies don't sit around all day wondering how they make their white vans pedophile proof. So why should you?

Because I detest the idea that much, and enjoy the challenge. The analogy doesn't really fit either, it's really more like DRM (evil as that may sound) and engineers do sit around all day thinking about it.

[GrimReaper]

Honestly. NV has almost no children in it compared to FO3. Sexout is pretty much only available on FNV, and you have to put in work to get TTWs working while most people don't cause, work. If people are playing with kids in that game. Then they really like kids and you're not going to stop them no matter what you do. They will literally gut your mod to get what they want.

 

My advise don't worry about it. It isn't your problem. Car companies don't sit around all day wondering how they make their white vans pedophile proof. So why should you?

 

I think it's more about mods that add children to the game rather than what's there in vanilla. Thing is, even if Sexout/Sexlab was coded in a way that no one could ever crack it, people would still bypass those regulations by changing the children to be compatible with sex mods, rather than changing the sex mods to be compatible with children. Anyway, if prideslayer thinks that he should do everything to prevent that from happening, by all means, he should do it.

 

By the way, I wasn't aware that japan changed the laws regarding this stuff. On the Skyrim Image Uploader you can still find nude children in sexually explicit situation every now and then. They only delete pictures that aren't censored properly.

 

 

 

 

 

ANYWAY. The original point someone made was that nexus is a bad place because they allow child followers to be hosted there and that LL is better because it would be against the rules to do so here. But that's wrong, LL does allow it. I get that many people are angry at the nexus and they have every reason to do so if they so desire, but don't make shit up. With all the things the nexus staff does poorly, one wonders why there is a need to invent non-existant issues.

[prideslayer]

ANYWAY. The original point someone made was that nexus is a bad place because they allow child followers to be hosted there and that LL is better because it would be against the rules to do so here. But that's wrong, LL does allow it. I get that many people are angry at the nexus and they have every reason to do so if they so desire, but don't make shit up. With all the things the nexus staff does poorly, one wonders why there is a need to invent non-existant issues.

I'm in full agreement with this sentiment, the sidetrack was unintentional. That topic just sets my blood boiling.

[cornbreadtm]

But you don't want to forget who your target audience is. Is it the modders on this site who enjoy adding to your mod and/or using it in their game for it's intended purpose. Or is it the pedophiles who use it?

 

You don't want to lock out your target audience, just to have pedophile unlock it, which they will. Then they will share it like always, meaning only one person has to for all of them to profit.

 

I mean look at the once great Nintendo. They're target audience is adults. But they market to kids. So when adults by their system for their kids they only get 2-3 games that the kid likes and that's it. Since Video game systems as suppose to be sale 10-20 games per home per system. Nintendo systems have been failing in comparison to Sony and Microsoft who market their kid games to adults. Adults have the money and buy the games for their children. Many adults have played games growing up now, so they make discussion on the games being played by their kids now unlike in the early 1990s. If you focus to greatly on the wrong audience, you will always fail to meet everyone expectations. No many how big you are.

[prideslayer]

How would my "target audience" be "locked out" by stronger anti-pedo protection? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[cornbreadtm]

 

By the way, I wasn't aware that japan changed the laws regarding this stuff. On the Skyrim Image Uploader you can still find nude children in sexually explicit situation every now and then. They only delete pictures that aren't censored properly.

 

 

 

 

 

ANYWAY. The original point someone made was that nexus is a bad place because they allow child followers to be hosted there and that LL is better because it would be against the rules to do so here. But that's wrong, LL does allow it. I get that many people are angry at the nexus and they have every reason to do so if they so desire, but don't make shit up. With all the things the nexus staff does poorly, one wonders why there is a need to invent non-existant issues.

 

 

Yeah, I saw a few the last time I was checkout the site. It isn't Sexlab being used though, just halo poser. Not to sure on the new laws but it might not allow full sex with children. Just nudity and the depiction of pervy old men surrounding them. Their laws have a habit of being rather loose like that. Gonna have to read up on it some more. Just hard to get any current information that isn't in Japanese or some kind of political satire (we really have to get serious about the new).

 

And the only problem with the before mention follower was the fact that people shoved her in skimpy clothing and used halo poser on her then took a bunch of pictures and uploaded them. Everyone flipped on the Nexus. Now it wasn't any mods from this site but I get where people are coming from when it comes to not wanting that to be possible.

 

But stopping kids from being used with Fnis and halo poser would stifle peoples creativity, I've seen a lot of nice and funny stories being set up with those mods on this site and off. I enjoy a good Skyrim comic or picture story, not everything as to be about sex. Both Fnis poser and halo poser have acquirable sexual themed poses (I dont use halo so I'm not sure if they are build in, I know brainsperm makes adult content for Fnis though) but putting restrictions on them would only hurt rather than fix any problem. Mostly because people would just remove the ischild flag from everything and use a shortened skeleton and do it any way. Again basically only hurting the regular modders.

[prideslayer]

But stopping kids from being used with Fnis and halo poser would stifle peoples creativity

Nobody is suggesting this any more than they're suggesting that MAX or blender restrict creating or animating children. We are (or were) talking about sexually explicit framework mods like sexout and sexlab. FNIS needs to stay compatible with children. Sexout and Sexlab do not.

[cornbreadtm]

How would my "target audience" be "locked out" by stronger anti-pedo protection? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

If your going to lock them out. You'd have to keep various things like source scripts (for example) to yourself. End the long run you prevent anyone that you haven't given the scripts to from accessing your mod. It's not that big of a problem especially with a framework like yours but depending on how large of a mod someone is trying to make or if you even pass the project on it could be a problem.

 

I've seen it happen a few times with Oblivion and NWN2.  Anti-pedo protection works about the same as anti-theft if done right. I remember one guy years back when I was still working with NWN2, some used his mod without permission and pretty much told him "fuck you" when he asked them to stop. So he lost it and block all usage of the new updates to his mod. He gave it to a select few and pretty much blocked out 99% of his original audience. Everyone agreed that those guys sucked for stealing his mod but it sucked more to lose such a great mod in the end.

 

You can do what you feel is best with your mod, I'm just wary of "cutting off the nose to spite the face" and i'm opinionated.

[cornbreadtm]

 

But stopping kids from being used with Fnis and halo poser would stifle peoples creativity

Nobody is suggesting this any more than they're suggesting that MAX or blender restrict creating or animating children. We are (or were) talking about sexually explicit framework mods like sexout and sexlab. FNIS needs to stay compatible with children. Sexout and Sexlab do not.

 

 

Fnis has worst sexual poses than Sexlab and sexout combined... Which is the problem. There isn't a real win-win solution but since Fnis is an animation framework people can make what ever they want for it. You don't have to use it as such but most people don't know the difference form a Fnis pose to a sexlab one.

 

http://brainsperm.blog.fc2.com/

NSFW

Any of these poses are compatible with most any character you can think of. They are all really good too.

[prideslayer]

It's not that big of a problem especially with a framework like yours

Well that's all we were talking about, sexout, lovers, sexlab, whatever. Other jerks are already using the first technique (deleting the script source) to keep their "trade secrets" which I think is stupid, but it's the only way to keep something like the anti-pedo stuff functional in the face of such easy modding.

 

I've seen it happen

That situation was entirely different. I'm not suggesting that I will take my ball and go home. Hiding the source to a few scripts isn't the same as throwing a tantrum and only giving updates to my BFFs.

 

You can do what you feel is best with your mod, I'm just wary of "cutting off the nose to spite the face" and i'm opinionated.

I'm just as opinionated, don't worry about it. I have no intention of doing damage to the mod, I know the risks, and they will always be able to use old versions (the current version) anyway. If I can make it a pain in the ass for them to use new versions with kickass new features though, I'll do it.

 

A little trade secret -- I don't just block children from having sex. I block them, then do some other things that tend to generate bug reports. This has outed (so far) 2-3 pedo types since I first implemented it, via tech support requests. I find that far more satisfying than just blocking it and letting them find workarounds in secret.

 

 

But stopping kids from being used with Fnis and halo poser would stifle peoples creativity

Nobody is suggesting this any more than they're suggesting that MAX or blender restrict creating or animating children. We are (or were) talking about sexually explicit framework mods like sexout and sexlab. FNIS needs to stay compatible with children. Sexout and Sexlab do not.

 

 

Fnis has worst sexual poses than Sexlab and sexout combined... Which is the problem. There isn't a real win-win solution but since Fnis is an animation framework people can make what ever they want for it. You don't have to use it as such but most people don't know the difference form a Fnis pose to a sexlab one.

 

http://brainsperm.blog.fc2.com/

NSFW

Any of these poses are compatible with most any character you can think of. They are all really good too.

 

FNIS itself does not have any sexual poses at all. It's just something that allows poses and animations from other sources to be incorporated into skyrim. Sexlab uses it, as do many other things.