Formal Complaint

[DoctaSax]

This is just going around in circles - we can't dump porn ads as long as there are porn mods here, and there always will be. Any and all payment options for donations or membership levels that are somewhat reliable also don't apply to LL. Sequestring non-porn to a different site where none of these restrictions apply is imo the best way to move ahead. That way one can keep the other afloat. That's long-term though, in the short term somebody should throw the boss a job with short hours.

[prideslayer]

Of course, we don't and can't charge for these mods;  but the idea of this being a "private club" setup  is a lot more appealing to me than the idea that we have to sink ourselves to this type of advertising to fund it.

We "don't" but we certainly "can". If someone is putting a lot of time and effort into a mod and wants to charge for it, they're free to do so. It's not something I'm interested in at all, but other modders may feel differently.

 

I agree with that next quote you posted too, (although you did not)  -  the bandwidth has got to be the major cost of the site because other sites who don't host  uploads/downloads can well afford the cost of the server without any advertising.

Oh I'm sure it's the major cost as well, I just have no idea how high it is. His first 8-10 TB/mo probably cost 10% of that total, maybe a bit more. I haven't asked him who is provider is or went digging to find out, it's not really relevant. The point is that it's expensive, and expecting him to shoulder all the costs himself with the tiny bit of payout from the advertising is absurd when everyone here is benefiting.

 

The last quote -  I don't even begin to understand or know about these things,  but if I'm getting what you said correctly, then I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to get into the business of hosting a site offering a haven to download mods, then complain it costs too much if any new members join and want to download those mods.  That is why this site is here/was created, isn't it?   So saying new members cost too much and must be avoided - I have a hard time understanding that.

I didn't mean to imply that new members should be avoided, that's silly. I was pointing out that new members are a further drain on finances when the only source of revenue is the advertising. Attracting more members was listed as some way of helping the financial situation -- but it doesn't help at all.

 

LL now HAS to rely on those ads to break even because there are not enough new members to take up the slack from this community.

LL is not "breaking even", not even close. Ashal has repeatedly stated this. I would be shocked if the advertising is covering more than 10-20% of the costs.

 

I agree with most of what you've said about the advertising, and how it drives other potential visitors away. There isn't a single person here who wants to see those advertisements. However, you say attracting more people would attract more contributors yet there is no way for them to contribute at present.

 

Membership fees for higher levels of access seem the only way forward to me. Donation accounts get shut down as soon as they're linked to the site, and there isn't a crowdfunding site that will touch this place.

 

To be honest, I don't care if they profit or not;  that is not my concern.

It needs to be your concern. The less those companies believe they are making thanks to the advertising, the less they'll pay for advertising. The less they pay for advertising, the less LL takes in for hosting the ads. If they stop banner advertising entirely, then great, none of us has to see the ads ever again -- but LLs gross income goes from small to zero, and how long will it last then?

 

I can understand why PayPal won't allow their logo on a page with those ads,  but they do have their logo on Nexus (who also hosts adult mods).   So I have a hard time believing it is all due to the content of the mods.

It has nothing to do with the ads. This site allows mod content Nexus doesn't, namely rape and bestiality.

 

even if it is just a personal account on different web page and a link from this site to access it by anyone wanting to make donations.

Paypal and others will freeze those accounts as soon as they figure out they are actually back doors into a site that they won't allow. That happens fast when you have people with an axe to grind who are probably watching this thread and will report the connection as soon as they discover it.

[prideslayer]

This is just going around in circles - we can't dump porn ads as long as there are porn mods here, and there always will be. Any and all payment options for donations or membership levels that are somewhat reliable also don't apply to LL. Sequestring non-porn to a different site where none of these restrictions apply is imo the best way to move ahead. That way one can keep the other afloat. That's long-term though, in the short term somebody should throw the boss a job with short hours.

Any "high risk" payment processor will be able to accept site payments for subscriptions, sales, probably even donations. AMS Visa, ccBill, ccnetpay, and AMP are a few of the better known ones. All adult sites as well as gambling and a few others are considered "high risk" and is why most CC processors won't touch them -- the risk of chargebacks due to fraud (stolen accounts, claims of shady auto-rebilling, etc) are just too high for them.

 

The high risk processors charge higher percentages and/or fees to cover the fraud risk.

[mALX]

 

Of course, we don't and can't charge for these mods;  but the idea of this being a "private club" setup  is a lot more appealing to me than the idea that we have to sink ourselves to this type of advertising to fund it.

We "don't" but we certainly "can". If someone is putting a lot of time and effort into a mod and wants to charge for it, they're free to do so. It's not something I'm interested in at all, but other modders may feel differently.

 

 

 

 

Not legally they can't; they are piggy-backing on material they do not own - Bethesda does. They are making these mods with a graphics engine Bethesda bought and packaged access to for us to play in - not profit from.    

 

Legally there is no way for any modder to charge for these mods.   If anyone puts a lot of their time and effort into a mod, it is because they like doing it and enjoy creating mods;  but they don't own or have rights to that Gamebryo engine their mods are created on; they don't own the game they are played in.    Bethesda provided them the ability to  stretch their own creative minds, not to go out and try to earn money with their creation kit.    

[prideslayer]

Selling a mod isn't selling the the GECK, the engine, or any copyrighted material owned by bethesda or zenimax. Regardless of why they created the CK, the copyright for user created content is held entirely by the user that created it. They are free to do what they wish with it, including sell it. Google "Fair Use" and "Derivative work."

 

If you don't own the copyright to any mods you make, then you have no right to say who can reuse your mod or rerelease it, where they can upload it, and so on. The idea of "permissions" for a mod, set by the creator, would be utter nonsense.

 

Edit: Actually you can even scratch the normal copyright protections. If bethesda had any say over what you can do with things you make with the CK, that would mean Stallman could also dictate terms to everyone building things with GCC, MS could demand royalties for every program compiled with VC++, and so on. It's just utter nonsense.

 

If you create something, you own it, and you can sell it. The tools you use do not matter.

[mALX]

Selling a mod isn't selling the the GECK, the engine, or any copyrighted material owned by bethesda or zenimax. Regardless of why they created the CK, the copyright for user created content is held entirely by the user that created it. They are free to do what they wish with it, including sell it. Google "Fair Use" and "Derivative work."

 

If you don't own the copyright to any mods you make, then you have no right to say who can reuse your mod or rerelease it, where they can upload it, and so on. The idea of "permissions" for a mod, set by the creator, would be utter nonsense.

 

Edit: Actually you can even scratch the normal copyright protections. If bethesda had any say over what you can do with things you make with the CK, that would mean Stallman could also dictate terms to everyone building things with GCC, MS could demand royalties for every program compiled with VC++, and so on. It's just utter nonsense.

 

If you create something, you own it, and you can sell it. The tools you use do not matter.

 

 

I don't believe you are correct in this, but I have no doubt you will defend your stance like a bulldog and I'm not going to - don't have to, because Bethesda has and does handle people who try to profit from their mods - case in point is the "Romance Mod"  (on this site now)  that got booted off Kickstarter and banned from Nexus for trying to sell something they don't own.  

 

Unless you go out and purchase the graphics engine and create the game it plugs into, you have no ownership.  Pay your self for your time and effort with the kudos or endorsements people that like your mod give you, because that is all you are entitled to.  

 

This attitude of entitlement is what is deteriorating the modding community as a whole.  You are not 10-13 years old if you are on this site, so the concept of copyright law should not be so foreign to you; you are arguing while standing on a sinking platform - the mod doesn't play without the game first and foremost; and couldn't have been made without the "Geck/CK/CS." which Bethesda holds all rights to.  

 

  

 

 

 

[mALX]

 

 

Bethesda Softworks provides this software utility download on a  

USE AT YOUR OWN RISK basis 

 

This downloadable editor, titled The Creation Kit™ (the “Editor”), enables the end user (“You”) to create new or customized levels or otherwise adjust Your experience in using the copy of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim® software product purchased by You (the “Product”). All uses of the Editor and any materials created using the Editor (the “New Materials”) are for Your own personal, non-commercial use solely in connection with the applicable Product, subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.  

 

PLEASE READ THIS STATEMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE DOWNLOADING AND USING THE EDITOR. YOUR DOWNLOAD AND USE OF THE EDITOR CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THESE TERMS OF USE (THIS “AGREEMENT”). IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THESE TERMS OF USE, DO NOT DOWNLOAD OR USE THE EDITOR. 

 

1. RESTRICTIONS ON USE 

The Editor is and shall remain the copyrighted property of Bethesda Softworks and/or its designee(s) and You shall take no action inconsistent with such title or ownership. You may not cause or permit the sale or other commercial distribution or commercial exploitation (e.g., by renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, disseminating, uploading, downloading, transmitting, whether on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise) of any New Materials without the express prior written consent of an authorized representative of Bethesda Softworks. This includes distributing New Materials as part of any compilation You and/or other Product users may create. You shall not create any New Materials that infringe upon the rights of others, or that are libelous, defamatory, harassing, or threatening, and You shall comply with all applicable laws in connection with the New Materials. You are only permitted to distribute the New Materials, without charge (i.e., on a strictly non-commercial basis), to other authorized users who have purchased the Product, solely for use with such users’ own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws. If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit. You also waive and agree never to assert against Bethesda Softworks or its affiliates, distributors or licensors any moral rights or similar rights, however designated, that You may have in or to any of the New Materials. If You commit any breach of this Agreement, Your right to use the Editor under this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice. 

 

Your breach of this Section shall constitute a material breach of this Agreement and/or of applicable copyright and other intellectual property rights laws and treaties, and may subject You to civil and criminal liability.  

 

2. WARRANTY DISCLAIMER

The Editor is provided “AS IS” and WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND INFRINGEMENT. USE OF THE EDITOR AND ANY NEW MATERIALS IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND YOU ASSUME ALL RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH THE PERFORMANCE OF THE EDITOR ON YOUR MACHINE.  

 

With respect to software that is enabled for use on or over the Internet, You acknowledge that Bethesda Softworks is not responsible for the Internet or whether it should continue to exist in its present form or whether or not a government or governmental agency, either foreign or domestic, will control, regulate or disband the Internet. Use of the Internet is at Your sole risk. 

 

3. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY 

IN NO EVENT SHALL BETHESDA SOFTWORKS OR ANY OF ITS AFFILIATES OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY (I) SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE, EXEMPLARY OR OTHER INDIRECT DAMAGES, (II) THIRD PARTY CLAIMS, OR (III) LOSS OR DAMAGE TO ANY SYSTEMS, HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE, RECORDS OR DATA, EVEN IF ADVISED OF OR AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF ANY SUCH DAMAGES.  

 

SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE LIMITATION OR EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY. ACCORDINGLY, SOME OF THE ABOVE MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. 

 

4. INDEMNITY 

You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Bethesda Softworks, its partners, licensees, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Editor pursuant to the terms of this Agreement. 

 

5. INCORPORATION OF ADDITIONAL TERMS  

In addition to the terms of this Agreement, any use of the Editor is also governed by the terms of the license agreement applicable to the copy of the Product purchased by You and by the terms and conditions of the Steam Workshop site available at http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/workshopsubmitinfo 

 

 

[mALX]

That is what you agree to right before the editor installs on your computer, and if you don't sign that agreement it does not install.  That is a signed contract when you click on "I agree."

 

If you try to sell your mods, you are in violation of the copyright laws, which you signed and agreed to on installing both your game and editor.  

[wulfgear09]

 What about The Divine mag or youtube ? there is people out there getting thousands of dollars to talk about freaking hair barrettes for god sake. Animated smut pays well i bet  though I really have no idea how strict youtube is with porn . Though terrorist can show beheadings <--- oops. (holds rage for other forums)

 

If someone would point to the best tools to make a video of a game i would gladly drag some poor dovahkiin into a barrow and have her come out the other side bound ,bleeding and smiling .

 

*checks map*. "Ok, where to next!" closes map ,breaks her last key in the pony boots. " oh,this is going to be a long walk ...wait is that a horse?"

[windpl]

That is what you agree to right before the editor installs on your computer, and if you don't sign that agreement it does not install.  That is a signed contract when you click on "I agree."

 

If you try to sell your mods, you are in violation of the copyright laws, which you signed and agreed to on installing both your game and editor.  

 

It wouldn't be selling a product but access to it. That's kinda different right? Don't be such a upright ass.

Anyway, premium that disable ads would be great.

[mALX]

 

That is what you agree to right before the editor installs on your computer, and if you don't sign that agreement it does not install.  That is a signed contract when you click on "I agree."

 

If you try to sell your mods, you are in violation of the copyright laws, which you signed and agreed to on installing both your game and editor.  

 

It wouldn't be selling a product but access to it. That's kinda different right? Don't be such a upright ass.

Anyway, premium that disable ads would be great.

 

 

 

Semantics,  but the problem is that all these people pulling this entitlement crap are going to ruin it for everyone if Bethesda quits packaging the editor because they were tired of the expense of quashing people without ethics that try to usurp their rights and gain off of something that is not theirs to gain with.  

 

People have been modding for years with no recompense;  for the sheer pleasure of doing it, to explore their creativity and skills, or many times to get jobs with Bethesda or another game company by showing their capability.  It is only in the last few years that suddenly everyone feels entitled to sell these mods claiming hard work and effort  and they have bills to pay - bills they didn't think about while sitting in front of the computer modding, I guess.  

 

Modding is a hobby, it only becomes a business if you get hired by a gaming company and get a paycheck for doing it.   

 

IF  someone likes your mods enough to donate something toward your time, that is a different story - that is a donation; and perfectly acceptable.  

[RitualClarity]

 

 

That is what you agree to right before the editor installs on your computer, and if you don't sign that agreement it does not install.  That is a signed contract when you click on "I agree."

 

If you try to sell your mods, you are in violation of the copyright laws, which you signed and agreed to on installing both your game and editor.  

 

It wouldn't be selling a product but access to it. That's kinda different right? Don't be such a upright ass.

Anyway, premium that disable ads would be great.

 

 

 

Semantics,  but the problem is that all these people pulling this entitlement crap are going to ruin it for everyone if Bethesda quits packaging the editor because they were tired of the expense of quashing people without ethics that try to usurp their rights and gain off of something that is not theirs to gain with.  

 

People have been modding for years with no recompense;  for the sheer pleasure of doing it, to explore their creativity and skills, or many times to get jobs with Bethesda or another game company by showing their capability.  It is only in the last few years that suddenly everyone feels entitled to sell these mods claiming hard work and effort  and they have bills to pay - bills they didn't think about while sitting in front of the computer modding, I guess.  

 

Modding is a hobby, it only becomes a business if you get hired by a gaming company and get a paycheck for doing it.   

 

IF  someone likes your mods enough to donate something toward your time, that is a different story - that is a donation; and perfectly acceptable.  

 

Yes. I really agree on this. However donations buttons usually seem to end up into being required donation to continue then to .. you have to pay before I work on a project as if it is a job. ..LOL

 

[windpl]

 

 

That is what you agree to right before the editor installs on your computer, and if you don't sign that agreement it does not install.  That is a signed contract when you click on "I agree."

 

If you try to sell your mods, you are in violation of the copyright laws, which you signed and agreed to on installing both your game and editor.  

 

It wouldn't be selling a product but access to it. That's kinda different right? Don't be such a upright ass.

Anyway, premium that disable ads would be great.

 

 

 

Semantics,  but the problem is that all these people pulling this entitlement crap are going to ruin it for everyone if Bethesda quits packaging the editor because they were tired of the expense of quashing people without ethics that try to usurp their rights and gain off of something that is not theirs to gain with.  

 

People have been modding for years with no recompense;  for the sheer pleasure of doing it, to explore their creativity and skills, or many times to get jobs with Bethesda or another game company by showing their capability.  It is only in the last few years that suddenly everyone feels entitled to sell these mods claiming hard work and effort  and they have bills to pay - bills they didn't think about while sitting in front of the computer modding, I guess.  

 

Modding is a hobby, it only becomes a business if you get hired by a gaming company and get a paycheck for doing it.   

 

IF  someone likes your mods enough to donate something toward your time, that is a different story - that is a donation; and perfectly acceptable.  

 

 

We aren't talking about people, we are talking about ship that keeps them afloat. A VERY EXPENSIVE ship.

[mALX]

 

 

 

That is what you agree to right before the editor installs on your computer, and if you don't sign that agreement it does not install.  That is a signed contract when you click on "I agree."

 

If you try to sell your mods, you are in violation of the copyright laws, which you signed and agreed to on installing both your game and editor.  

 

It wouldn't be selling a product but access to it. That's kinda different right? Don't be such a upright ass.

Anyway, premium that disable ads would be great.

 

 

 

Semantics,  but the problem is that all these people pulling this entitlement crap are going to ruin it for everyone if Bethesda quits packaging the editor because they were tired of the expense of quashing people without ethics that try to usurp their rights and gain off of something that is not theirs to gain with.  

 

People have been modding for years with no recompense;  for the sheer pleasure of doing it, to explore their creativity and skills, or many times to get jobs with Bethesda or another game company by showing their capability.  It is only in the last few years that suddenly everyone feels entitled to sell these mods claiming hard work and effort  and they have bills to pay - bills they didn't think about while sitting in front of the computer modding, I guess.  

 

Modding is a hobby, it only becomes a business if you get hired by a gaming company and get a paycheck for doing it.   

 

IF  someone likes your mods enough to donate something toward your time, that is a different story - that is a donation; and perfectly acceptable.  

 

Yes. I really agree on this. However donations buttons usually seem to end up into being required donation to continue then to .. you have to pay before I work on a project as if it is a job. ..LOL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:rofl:   I haven't seen that trick, lol.  

 

 

 

[PsychoMachina]

How about 'renting' advert space to modders who provide their own banner to be shown in place of some of the adult ads.  The banners are shown for a month during which they are rotated with other modder-supported banners.

 

The site gets some needed funding with fewer adult-related ads. 

 

[prideslayer]

Hey now, I'm an arrogant asshole, but the EULA says what it says. Fine by me. Not like I read it before now. I guess I'll have to turn to NX to make my millions. How much should I charge for the next version of it? Maybe I'll keep sexout free, but only ship it on CD, for a minor shipping and handling charge of course.

 

Premium access to disable ads is fine by me, but their has to be "more." The adblocker crowd isn't going to pay just for that, many of them won't pay for anything at all given a choice. Maybe in the meantime the new forum software will finally make it out and we can make the torrent thing a reality.

[prideslayer]

Modding is a hobby, it only becomes a business if you get hired by a gaming company and get a paycheck for doing it.

At one point, just about everything now commercial was "just a hobby". Modding is a business when the modder decides to turn it into one. So they can't use the CK, so what? You can still charge for mods that don't include content created with the CK, and if they're good enough, people will pay. Models, animations, textures, add-on utilities like NVSE, and so on.

 

I don't really understand why you're so against people being paid to do what they enjoy. Is your job that bad that you can't stand it if someone else is happy at theirs?

[mALX]

How about 'renting' advert space to modders who provide their own banner to be shown in place of some of the adult ads.  The banners are shown for a month during which they are rotated with other modder-supported banners.

 

The site gets some needed funding with fewer adult-related ads. 

 

 

This idea is Awesome/Brilliant!  

[mALX]

 

Modding is a hobby, it only becomes a business if you get hired by a gaming company and get a paycheck for doing it.

At one point, just about everything now commercial was "just a hobby". Modding is a business when the modder decides to turn it into one. So they can't use the CK, so what? You can still charge for mods that don't include content created with the CK, and if they're good enough, people will pay. Models, animations, textures, add-on utilities like NVSE, and so on.

 

I don't really understand why you're so against people being paid to do what they enjoy. Is your job that bad that you can't stand it if someone else is happy at theirs?

 

 

 

I'm not against anything;  you are just trying to turn this into an uncalled for personal attack on me now.    

 

You quoted me when I mentioned that we can't get paid for the mod but donations could be made to the site the mod is hosted on instead; and your response said,  "Oh yes we can charge for the mod if we want to."

 

I just responded back to you with a posting of the facts, the contract you and everyone that plays Bethesda games signs.  

 

Remember,  this whole discussion is about trying to help this site to get its head above water;  that is what my words you quoted were  in relation to.   

 

Let's get back on topic then, shall we?  

 

 

 

[wulfgear09]

 I just noticed some of the porn banners are gone...... Hope that dont mean what i think it means.

[Dubhorizon]

 

 

Remember,  this whole discussion is about trying to help this site to get its head above water;

 

Nope, this whole discussion started from you not wanting to see porn ads and complaining about it. Your complaint ended at page 1 when the owner of the site and moderators explained to you how things are and offered you a plethora of options. It has then somehow escalated into meaningless debate about content distribution.

[mALX]

 

Remember,  this whole discussion is about trying to help this site to get its head above water;

 

Nope, this whole discussion started from you not wanting to see porn ads and complaining about it. Your complaint ended at page 1 when the owner of the site and moderators explained to you how things are and offered you a plethora of options. It has then somehow escalated into meaningless debate about content distribution.

 

 

 

Actually, that is my suggestion that they were discussing implementing on page 5 or 6.  This discussion began because I complained about the ads, and the discussion evolved into the site needing the funds from those ads to stay afloat (because of the informative responses by the administration and Prideslayer).  

 

That is a pretty important discussion members should be having if they have a going concern for this site remaining a haven for them.   If they need money, and we want the site to stay afloat, we should be discussing how we can help.  

 

If instead of helping the site you all just want to start an all out personal attack on me like Prideslayer just did, then have at it; I'm just trying to help LL;  and so far your only contribution to the discussion was to snipe at me.   If the dialogue is not progressing, then I'd say that is because of pointless attacks on other members rather than constructive brainstorming.    

 

At least I'm trying to help the site,  and offering assistance in funding.  I'm willing to do my part, why would you attack that?  Where are those six dogs when you need them?  

 

 

 

[Cynical Misanthrope]

The only reason I can see for anyone to bitch about the type of ads that are here is because there afraid of having family members looking over there shoulders and finding out the type of sites they visit. If they are that worried about it why the hell visit those types of sites in the first place. Facetiousness is BORING.

 

And what do you base that on? I live all alone, been doing that for 20 years, so no one can look over my shoulders. I just dislike cocks and cunts being tossed in my face everywhere I go. When I surf around, I want a clean experience. But, I want to help LL as much as the guy next to me, but not to the expense of turning my adblock off. Thats why I am one of the members who also are willing to pay to help out.

[prideslayer]

This discussion began because I complained

Well, we agree on something.

 

If instead of helping the site you all just want to start an all out personal attack on me like Prideslayer just did, then have at it; I'm just trying to help LL;  and so far your only contribution to the discussion was to snipe at me.   If the dialogue is not progressing, then I'd say that is because of pointless attacks on other members rather than constructive brainstorming.

Where have I "personally attacked" you? I got close with that other whats-his-name, but he hasn't returned. You're going to need to buck up a bit if you think me calling you out over your view of what motivates (or "should" motivate) a modder is a personal attack.

 

My suggestion is if you want to offer ideas for how to help fund the site, you start a new thread for that. This one started out doomed from the first post, as the whole premise arose out of your own ignorance (personal attack?!) about how your browser and plugins work, and just what ads have been shown here for how long.

[gregathit]

And on that note....this thread has pretty much run its course I think.