LAPF 1.5 with 1st person cam: impressions

[rynak777]

Support for the "1st person cam in 3rd person view"-plugin, is the primary new feature in LAPF 1.5, as i understand things. It has been in extended closed testing, before finally being released. Given the above, i find this particular version of LAPF a bit odd for various reasons:

 

There is no adequate documentation on how to get the 1st person cam to work (i.e., nowhere is it even mentioned, that this requires a seperate plugin - you're supposed to know already). In a nutshell, this is a major version bump in LPK, that offers nothing significantly new to anyone, who hasn't been "in the loop" already: Only those who have been following the cam development, get major benefits.

 

Or do they perhaps not? After playing around a while with this mode, i'm suspecting that the reason 1.5 was released with little fanfare, wasn't to cop out from support and documentation work. Rather, i'm getting the impression, that this new feature isn't really all that useable yet: It's not "ready". Various issues make it not all that usable:

 

1. Distances are so small that the camera will either clip through your partner's head, or through your own head (looking at your own gibs is really sexy, isn't it?). There isn't even a single reason why this happens - instead, it's the result of multiple issues....

 

2. First, the minimum distance to the camera, before stuff clips, was never meant for such short distances. Oblivion wasn't designed with this in mind. For example, if you in oblivion.ini reduce fNearDist to a value small enough, that is usable for such short distances.... then the MENUs and INTERFACE will glitch out! Backgrounds and buttons start disappearing, because the 2D GUI apparently follows camera rules too (widescreen users will be familiar with this problem).

 

3. Second, the animations of course were never designed with such a camera in mind. However, its not just that some anims are unwatchable without getting vertigo.... and its not just that minimum distance wasn't taken into account - no, it gets much worse: Many of the anims that come with the LAPF, have outrightly defective facial animations. And i really mean "defective" as in "bugged": Plenty of cases where chars have one eye wide open, and the other eye closed - and more such weirdness.... stuff you don't notice until you zoom in and position the cam to look someone straight in the face. Sooo, now the "animation team" (aka, one-man army gregahit) no longer just has to update all animations to make proper use of literal "boners", no longer has to update all the creature anims.... someday, no longer just has to rework all those old animations and axe semi-crucified stuff..... no, now on top of all this, all facial and head animations would need to be reworked as well.

 

4. LogicDragon's plugin offers no way to disable the player head during those anims - which multiplies the above issues like tenfold. And i doubt that the problem is, that it cannot be done, or is hard to do. No, in a worst case, thanks to blockhead one could during first person sex anims simply replace the player's head with an invisible dummy one. But probably no one with blockhead knowledge was available for months to implement this tweak.

 

5. Finally, i'm not sure who is to blame, but the interaction between LAPF and the FPC DLL is buggy: The camera does not properly reset back to first person view, after sex - as a result, you always have to manually reset it.... and you really have to, because the state the cam is in after sex, makes one seasick and controls as responsively as an oil tanker.

 

So, in summary..... congrats on getting this far.... but i don't think this seriously is a "stable" release, right? It's basically a pre-beta regarding the new feature? To avoid misunderstandings: I'm NOT criticizing that certain things do not work.... i'm criticizing that this version was released in a way that implied "okay, we're done with our months-long internal testing phase - it's ready", when in fact, it is not ready at all.... you simply decided that you currently do not have the time to finish it properly, and there were other unrelated changes as well, so instead of keeping this under wraps forever, you made public what you got thus far. That's fine by me, but why not outrightly tell people so? Why call it a stable release, when it in fact is basically now a public beta?

[mem4ob4]

Greetings,

 

Support for the "1st person cam in 3rd person view"-plugin is one of the new features but we also see:

changes to animation adjustments-
    Allowing adjustment of NPC/NPC sex.
    Allow use of 10-key pad to make those adjustments.
    Use of the grab key to change NPC/NPC animations.
    I believe this includes some options that were in lovers extender that are now
    part of LAPF (moving actors out of walls, holding shift for fast movement, etc.?)
    
Body types can be set via spell and/or ini for individuals. (including penis/futa/dildo)
    If I have a few NPC's or my player using a 'setbody' different than my installed body, this
    keeps things looking good.

And we have a 'preset' ini file now that makes my startup (on a new game) much faster.

Ability to mark specific clothing as not strippable. (my toon can keep her 'bound boobs' top on while normal tops are stripped)

If a modder wants to make a direct call to a creature animation, it will actually call it as
apposed to grabbing a random one from its set.

 

So I see the cam option as just one of several features as apposed to the primary.

I do agree that in the OP, there is only a mention of the required plugin for the optional
support of 1st person cam. It is inside the spoiler under 'Technical details of what is included:'
and inside that spoiler.

I use the plugin and the options that LAPF have for it, but I never use 1st person for sex animations.
I use the flying camera roaming smooth cut to get a cinematic view of the sex act. I usually push the distance
out a ways from the default values (set in the ini). For me, that is the 'major feature' of it as
apposed to the 1st person view. I know there was quite a bit of testing for positioning of the camera
for this type of view with animations.
I can not say I know the minds of those that did the actual coding but I find the 'main feature' is
the 3rd person cinematic as apposed to the 1st person view. (I get sea sick way too easy)

Perhaps a bit more visible info on the OP would be helpful.

As you have noted elsewhere, there does seem to be something going on with saved variables with 'rape hostile' and I am sure it is being looked at. I have seen very few reports of other types of bugs related to this release.
To call this "a public beta", I would respectfully disagree.

Memrosh

[Vaelorian]

You clearly misunderstood things. So, let's bring you up to speed:

 

First person camera support was never the "main" feature of the update. There've been many changes and the first person camera, while nice for some people, will not be used by many users more than once (if at all).

 

Now, since I never used it, I'll have to answer things that aren't related to it exclusively (that is to say, things that happen even without it) and try to explain why they happen, how to avoid them, and how to fix them should they happen anyway:

 

#3 Is an engine problem. You weren't careful when swapping out animations and\or opened menus one too many times too quickly. The same will happen with idle objects if you swap too quickly with those.

The Oblivion engine was never meant for such quick swapping of animations. You can repair this by switching to a different animation that has the bugged objects\facial expression parts and let it update, then swap back.

Now, should swapping to a different animation not work, you can try to use the 'update3d' console command to try and reset it. Another command you can try is 'pickidle'. At the most extreme scenario you can try using a pose crystal's reset animation function to try and resolve this, but I strongly suggest against this.

 

As for your #4, I'm not sure what you're trying to say; if all you want is an empty model to be equipped whenever you start an act at first person, then that's a very basic edit and does not in any way shape or form require blockhead.

If you want something else, you should try to be a bit more clear.

 

Now, as a one-time thing I'm trying my best to ignore the aggressive wording of your post. But for next time, try to think if you'll offend someone before you post... And if you're wondering "Why on earth would he say that?"... Well, look at your #3 and then you'll understand.

Because sometimes, it's much better to ask if something is a problem before outright stating that it is when you don't know the technical side of things.

[Nightwynd]

.....

5. Finally, i'm not sure who is to blame, but the interaction between LAPF and the FPC DLL is buggy: The camera does not properly reset back to first person view, after sex - as a result, you always have to manually reset it.... and you really have to, because the state the cam is in after sex, makes one seasick and controls as responsively as an oil tanker.

 

 

 

I gotta say that is not LAPF's  fault at all. The camera bugging happens often if you switch between views too quickly, regardless of whatever you are doing. However, it is fixed by sheathing/unsheathing the weapon while clicking the view switch key.

 

Personally I really like the implementation and I am grateful for all the hard work that was put into into. So the best solution here is: If you don't like it, don't use it.

[rynak777]

As for your #4, I'm not sure what you're trying to say; if all you want is an empty model to be equipped whenever you start an act at first person, then that's a very basic edit and does not in any way shape or form require blockhead.

If you want something else, you should try to be a bit more clear.

 

I'm not sure what was hard to understand about my explanation. I was talking about disabling the player's head - not the entire actor model - while in a first person sex animation. From many past discussions, i was under the impression that it is very hard and complicated, to change the body meshes of actors (as opposed to the hackfix of "equipping" something as armor). As i understood things, blockhead made such switching of body meshes (on a per-actor basis) easy, without one having to resort "equip" hackfixes.

 

If hiding the player model's head (but not the upper and lower body) during motions is that easy, then why was this not offered? After all, it lesses the majority of the problems with the first person cam, because if the head is hidden, one can move the camera a bit further back (without clipping INTO the head), so that all the distance issues less severe - the player's nose will also no longer obscure stuff when looking down.

 

 

I gotta say that is not LAPF's  fault at all. The camera bugging happens often if you switch between views too quickly, regardless of whatever you are doing. However, it is fixed by sheathing/unsheathing the weapon while clicking the view switch key.

I'm quite sure we're talking about a different type of camera bugging here. What i experience has never happened before to me in years, but now with 1st person sex happens 100% of the time. What seems to happen is, that actor head tracking is stuck in the mode, that is used during sex. For example, you turn left with the mouse, and the camera lags behind as if there were lots of inertia involved (it feels a bit similiar to when in gfx chip settings, one sets "frames to render ahead of time" way too high - basically, everything lagging behind input). In fact, no camera or model changes happen at all over here, when sex concludes - there is no switch - nothing at all. Only if i tap V once, there's a switch, and the strange tracking and lagging behavior is gone.

 

If i in LAPF settings disable first cam, then once again this never happens.

[D_ManXX2]

 

 

3. Second, the animations of course were never designed with such a camera in mind. However, its not just that some anims are unwatchable without getting vertigo.... and its not just that minimum distance wasn't taken into account - no, it gets much worse: Many of the anims that come with the LAPF, have outrightly defective facial animations. And i really mean "defective" as in "bugged": Plenty of cases where chars have one eye wide open, and the other eye closed - and more such weirdness.... stuff you don't notice until you zoom in and position the cam to look someone straight in the face. Sooo, now the "animation team" (aka, one-man army gregahit) no longer just has to update all animations to make proper use of literal "boners", no longer has to update all the creature anims.... someday, no longer just has to rework all those old animations and axe semi-crucified stuff..... no, now on top of all this, all facial and head animations would need to be reworked as well.

 

That is not really animations fault more like the animator not knowing how to use facials in oblivion. Real problem is it is very difficult to do facials in blender period. if open up blender and import skeleton and meshes you will actually see what the problem is. Facials or done a different way. So creating animations is 1 thing but doing facials is very difficult to say the least. you cannot really test facials so all is done in game but changing a few keys usually make animators just say hey finished.

 

Look at fallout where there is no facials at all this is not like skyrim you know.

[rynak777]

Report on the weird post-sex camera behavior - i suspect LAPF 1.5 does not implement 1st person cam support correctly.

 

See, unless enabled in the ini file of the cam DLL, the player head is never visible in normal gameplay - it only appears when trying to support mods that do 3rd person animations (like LAPF sex scenes). BUT: After sex, the head remains, so that tells me that LAPF probably doesn't tell logicdragon's plugin when the sex animation finishes.

 

So, i return to the nexus page of the plugin, and find this little infobit:

 

Note for Modders:
This plugin allows for compatibility with mods that switch to third person to play animations so they can now be played in first person. All that is required is to run "ToggleFirstPerson 0" and "player.PickIdle" within the same frame. Then the animation should play in a fake first person mode. After the animation is done playing, use "ToggleFirstPerson 1" to restore first person view.

 

Maybe LAPF fails to do that? Unfortunatelly, given how much a piece of shit the TESCS is, it doesn't even offer a search function to search through all scripts - and given how many scripts there are for LAPF, i am NOT going to read the ENTIRE LAPF CODEBASE to see if the required codeline exists anywhere.

 

Instead, i decide to look for a function that is called when player sex ends.... like for example xLoversMainScriptStepFinalize:

 

    ;Rev59 ƒRƒŠƒWƒ‡ƒ“ONi•K‚¸j
    if xme==Player || zme==Player
        if IsGlobalCollisionDisabled
            SetDisableGlobalCollision 0    ;ƒRƒŠƒWƒ‡ƒ“—LŒø
        endif

        ToggleFirstPerson 1
    endif

 

I load the game to test it, and.......... works!

 

Maybe i inserted that line not at the most ideal position - i don't know much about LAPF code.... but it would seem that this line is missing somewhere: LAPF 1.5 tells logicdragon's plugin, when the fake-firstperson cam should start, but not when it should end.

[Vaelorian]

 

As for your #4, I'm not sure what you're trying to say; if all you want is an empty model to be equipped whenever you start an act at first person, then that's a very basic edit and does not in any way shape or form require blockhead.

If you want something else, you should try to be a bit more clear.

 

I'm not sure what was hard to understand about my explanation. I was talking about disabling the player's head - not the entire actor model - while in a first person sex animation. From many past discussions, i was under the impression that it is very hard and complicated, to change the body meshes of actors (as opposed to the hackfix of "equipping" something as armor). As i understood things, blockhead made such switching of body meshes (on a per-actor basis) easy, without one having to resort "equip" hackfixes.

 

If hiding the player model's head (but not the upper and lower body) during motions is that easy, then why was this not offered? After all, it lesses the majority of the problems with the first person cam, because if the head is hidden, one can move the camera a bit further back (without clipping INTO the head), so that all the distance issues less severe - the player's nose will also no longer obscure stuff when looking down.

 

I see no possible logical reason as to why equipping an empty model will not work. It's not a "dirty" or "hackfix", it's the exact same method used for adding bits to actors during an act, and if it's good enough for lowerbody slots it's good enough for head & hair slots.

And yes, you can select exactly which slots you want hidden.

The reason this was not implemented in the first place is probably because the coder simply didn't think about it as an issue (whether he decided this was easily fixable on the user's end, preferred things as they are or whatever other reason is entirely irrelevant).

 

But hey, you seem to know a bit about the CS yourself, so how about a little experiment? Make an empty model file. Go to the CS. Make it into clothing. Select the HEAD & HAIR slots (only). Save it. Load up the game. Equip that model during an act and come back here to tell me how it works.

[gregathit]

Guys, let's play nice.  While there was in fact a closed alpha and beta test run, the 1st person cam was not the main feature we were pushing.  It just sort of popped up and WappyOne slapped together some code for it.  The alpha and beta tests were run by a very small group and all of those happened to be heavy into the cam usage so there may be things that we might need to fix for the general public.  Right now it is still listed as a patch and I might change it to "optional 1st person cam patch" to be clear.

 

I don't play with 1st person cams myself, so I can't give an informed decision one way or the other.  From all the feedback that I saw in the alpha\beta, the smooth cut cam was the best.

 

As to facial animations.........that really is a mixed bag.  Blender doesn't show facial animations, so there is no way to animate them at the same time as the rest of the action.  As D_ManXX pointed out, you just have to make a wild ass guess and hope for the best.  Being as facial animations can be changed with nifskope, I just slapped some facial code in with blender (you just cut and paste in a text field box) and let it ride.  If someone wants to take the time to work out a good facial animation combo then all you need is nifskope, notepad and a bit of time to copy\paste and save.  I barely managed to finish the bulk of the animation project as it was........

[DeadSomething]

wow, at first i was like "wow, a review for the great new release", from there it turned into a rant and ended in a heavy debate...

 

the game engine was never meant for such complex stuff as what LPK/LAPF does. so i never was surprised when my game went odd or had CTD, especially, as it is modded too muich already.

 

i actually liked the 1stperson-plugin and apart from just a few minor problems, it still is awesome.

i didn't use 1stperson LAPF scenes yet, but i imagine it as being great

[rynak777]

i didn't use 1stperson LAPF scenes yet, but i imagine it as being great

Go ahead and try it. Then come back and post with a clue.

 

(No, i'm not going to apologize for the above. Everyone else in the thread has voiced reasonable arguments and corrected me in matters where i was mistaken. You however, have nothing informative to say at all - not even "informative ranting" which i still would have appreciated. Your post was nothing more than mindless cheerleading.)

 

 

 

As to facial animations.........that really is a mixed bag.  Blender doesn't show facial animations, so there is no way to animate them at the same time as the rest of the action.  As D_ManXX pointed out, you just have to make a wild ass guess and hope for the best.  Being as facial animations can be changed with nifskope, I just slapped some facial code in with blender (you just cut and paste in a text field box) and let it ride.

Well, rechecking all the animations just to get good facial animations might not really be worth it. With the little manpower available, there is already more than enough animation work on the plate. However, i suppose its not too difficult, to set a >>static<< expression for the entire motion? So basically, no facial animation at all? I'm asking because for those anims where things are really broken - like one eye wide open and the other closed.... a plain static stare would actually be preferable to that. So, i can understand that its too difficult and too much work to do good facial animations, but i suppose stuff not being worse than a plain static neutral stare, is a reasonable minimum bar?

 

If yes, then i could note down motion numbers where i notice weirdness. This way, you don't have to search for problematic motions one by one.

[gregathit]

You can delete or modify facial expressions with nifskope alone:  http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php/Facial_expressions_in_animations

 

I did the hard work via blender in adding the text blocks.  Now all you have to do is delete them or change them.

[Nightwynd]

 

i didn't use 1stperson LAPF scenes yet, but i imagine it as being great

Go ahead and try it. Then come back and post with a clue.

 

(No, i'm not going to apologize for the above. Everyone else in the thread has voiced reasonable arguments and corrected me in matters where i was mistaken. You however, have nothing informative to say at all - not even "informative ranting" which i still would have appreciated. Your post was nothing more than mindless cheerleading.)

 

 

 

As to facial animations.........that really is a mixed bag.  Blender doesn't show facial animations, so there is no way to animate them at the same time as the rest of the action.  As D_ManXX pointed out, you just have to make a wild ass guess and hope for the best.  Being as facial animations can be changed with nifskope, I just slapped some facial code in with blender (you just cut and paste in a text field box) and let it ride.

Well, rechecking all the animations just to get good facial animations might not really be worth it. With the little manpower available, there is already more than enough animation work on the plate. However, i suppose its not too difficult, to set a >>static<< expression for the entire motion? So basically, no facial animation at all? I'm asking because for those anims where things are really broken - like one eye wide open and the other closed.... a plain static stare would actually be preferable to that. So, i can understand that its too difficult and too much work to do good facial animations, but i suppose stuff not being worse than a plain static neutral stare, is a reasonable minimum bar?

 

If yes, then i could note down motion numbers where i notice weirdness. This way, you don't have to search for problematic motions one by one.

 

 

I know Greg said we should be good, but the tone of your posts make it sound as if you felt entitled to whatever changes you wanted, and it was the modders obligation to provide what you want. You should remember you are having these mods for free and without putting any amount of work on them like modders like Greg have done. Modders don't owe you anything, not even "informative ranting". You owe them for the chance to be able to spice up your game.

 

If you are so annoyed by the facial expressions, make your own patch and either release it or keep it private, because in all my time here I've never seen anyone making such a big deal of it.

[D_ManXX2]

 

 

If yes, then i could note down motion numbers where i notice weirdness. This way, you don't have to search for problematic motions one by one.

 

Not sure but you can check Bethesdsa site. if i remember right there was an external tool Bethesdsa used to have facials and lipsync to work. Not sure what it is called it been long time since i last played oblivion for real i still need to reinstall it after my pc format. But if you can find that tool and make facials you can note the offset and that is what you use for facials txt file in blender.

[rynak777]

@gregathit, DMan:

Thank you for the useful information.

 

@Nightwynd:

Yes, i am well aware that most humans put much higher priority on how someone says something, than what is actually being said. If that weren't the case, quite a lot mass manipulation in society, as well as pretty much the entire marketing profession, would be pointless, right? I'm fully aware of my tone and people having issues with that - and i don't give a damn.

 

 

I've never seen anyone making such a big deal of it.

I wonder why - maybe because the feature in question didn't exist before.... oh wait, i forgot.... you're argueing based on "feelings", "morals" and "tone", nevermind - i get it now.

 

But to answer your implied question: I'm not necrophile enough to enjoy fucking people who look like corpses or being braindamaged! Yes, it's this bad for certain anims. I wasn't kidding when i said "a blank static stare would be preferable".

[Vaelorian]

If this issue is re-create-able for you, please post the animation files. Make sure you can switch to the animation and it's always\mostly the case (try three times, switch slowly). If it is, post the files. I'll change it for you. Deal?

[DeadSomething]

 

i didn't use 1stperson LAPF scenes yet, but i imagine it as being great

Go ahead and try it. Then come back and post with a clue.

 

(No, i'm not going to apologize for the above. Everyone else in the thread has voiced reasonable arguments and corrected me in matters where i was mistaken. You however, have nothing informative to say at all - not even "informative ranting" which i still would have appreciated. Your post was nothing more than mindless cheerleading.)

[...]

 

first of all, my install is about 4 years old and very bugged, so everything i add or change is likely to make it even more unstable.

second, i just wanted to comment on this, as from reading the thread-title i was expecting something else.

third <°)))>< .

[Mumin]

Some of the animations are really awesome in 1st person .....others look like shit due to clipping and wild camera motion  I think it would be very nice if it was possible to switch between 1st and 3rd person view with a key (like "z" for changing position" instead of having to select it in the settings. No idea if it is easy to implement or how to do it though.

[fejeena]

? I tested the camera Mod before it was integrated  into LAPF and the R key and mouse weel still works to Switch from 1st to 3rd view. Is it now blocked ?

Yes some animations are stupid with 1st view, when I am fucked from behind, face at the ground I can see the roots of the plants under the ground ( if there would be any )

[D_ManXX2]

They where never made to be first person compatible.. i think there currently allot of those animations in LAPF also once where the head keeps turning this would also make the first person not a well experience.

[Mumin]

? I tested the camera Mod before it was integrated  into LAPF and the R key and mouse weel still works to Switch from 1st to 3rd view. Is it now blocked ?

Yes some animations are stupid with 1st view, when I am fucked from behind, face at the ground I can see the roots of the plants under the ground ( if there would be any )

I can only swivel around by holding the wheel button. No zooming out with R or the wheel otherwise :/

 

Switch between 1st person and flying camera was what I actually meant to mean by the way ><

[D_ManXX2]

no the R key is by default switched off in lovers with pk by default code. r key is used for pulling out weapon or holstering your weapon. So i guess that is why it was turned off.

 

Or was it the other way around both codes to switch to 3rd person and holstering is deactivated by lovers with pk code. So maybe they need to check the code if == 1stperson and disable that part to re-enable these options.

 

I think they will be needing to rewrite allot of coding. To implement such a thing. The original author who wrote lovers with pk never implemented the ability to have 1st person probably because there was no easy way to have it now. Also lovers with pk makes characters uncounceance witch makes any button mute to use.