Arachnophobia

Tj412 · March 14, 2016

This has probably already been answered but

-While this is LL, this isn't intended to include any sex/beastiality. There are no plans to rape the victims with oversized spider schlongs, impregnate them or anything of that sort.

Is there any particular reason why? Would it be difficult to implement, or is it something that doesn't interest you or that you may have something against? I mean there are already animations for that, I guess the issue would be transitioning between cocooned -> sex without all the webbing disappearing at once

Kazyn · March 14, 2016

Technical issues are definitely a thing. I'm still having technical issues with this mod that have caused no end to frustrations. Every time I come to work on this mod, I'm reminded of why I took a step back and it happens very frequently. It's primarily the reason the mod doesn't receive updates. That, and I'm unsure of how to improve the experience. Sure, I have ideas and people have given me some, but the trick is actually implementing it.

That's the other thing too, CK and papyrus have ways of behaving in such a way that if it were any other coding language, things would go so much smoother (and therefore, less frustrating). I understand why Bethesda did what they did, but it certainly does have its drawbacks.

That doesn't answer that scratching question though that everyone seems to ask: Why no sex? Short answer: It does nothing for me.

Since this is LL, I can give a long answer if for some reason someone wants to know more.

Storms of Superior · March 14, 2016

Technical issues are definitely a thing. I'm still having technical issues with this mod that have caused no end to frustrations. Every time I come to work on this mod, I'm reminded of why I took a step back and it happens very frequently. It's primarily the reason the mod doesn't receive updates. That, and I'm unsure of how to improve the experience. Sure, I have ideas and people have given me some, but the trick is actually implementing it.

That's the other thing too, CK and papyrus have ways of behaving in such a way that if it were any other coding language, things would go so much smoother (and therefore, less frustrating). I understand why Bethesda did what they did, but it certainly does have its drawbacks.

That doesn't answer that scratching question though that everyone seems to ask: Why no sex? Short answer: It does nothing for me.

Since this is LL, I can give a long answer if for some reason someone wants to know more.

He doesn't like spider-human sex, in other words. It still is a good mod, even if it isn't ever finished.

DonQuiWho · March 15, 2016

Thanks for the mod, Kazyn.

It makes for a great little detour as you try to fight your way round the main game, especially when, as I was, some wretched Frostbite cocoons you, ports you into the cave, you 'die' and then DA throws you off into an inn or the like, , and you then have to fight your way back to, and then through the whole of, Volskygge, and then out of the exit, just to get your gear back!

And then when you get back to where you got caught the first time, another arachnid does the same sort of thing

If, on principle, you don't use 'Fast travel', it makes for an entertaining set of diversions

Kazyn · March 15, 2016

He doesn't like spider-human sex, in other words. It still is a good mod, even if it isn't ever finished.

I just don't like sex in games in general. I mean, I don't judge people who get off on it - if that's your thing, that's your thing. Enjoy it. But even porn does nothing for me. I have my own sources of arousal and believe it or not, watching things have sex isn't one of them.

Thanks for the mod, Kazyn.

It makes for a great little detour as you try to fight your way round the main game, especially when, as I was, some wretched Frostbite cocoons you, ports you into the cave, you 'die' and then DA throws you off into an inn or the like, , and you then have to fight your way back to, and then through the whole of, Volskygge, and then out of the exit, just to get your gear back!

And then when you get back to where you got caught the first time, another arachnid does the same sort of thing

If, on principle, you don't use 'Fast travel', it makes for an entertaining set of diversions

Well, you've certainly a similar mind to mine, in that I believe in highly limiting the availability of fast travel if not disabling it entirely.

Varithina · March 15, 2016

You know what be awsome if the mod could be used along side the estrus spider mod instead of dying you become a breed host to the spiders... that would be awsome...

Take a look here http://www.loverslab.com/topic/46586-estrus-chaurus-v394-spider-addon/

May or may not be what you want, but you might be able to ask that mods author to do what you want.

DonQuiWho · March 15, 2016

Well, you've certainly a similar mind to mine, in that I believe in highly limiting the availability of fast travel if not disabling it entirely.

Absolutely! Only time I use it is to go to my little hut outside Riverwood when I want to update my mods or my MO structure, and then go straight back to where I was.

Anything else is just straightforward cheating...

Mind you, I have never yet finished a complete playthrough before my game was FUBAR....

Sceadugengan · March 15, 2016

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I think you could let the players keep their equipment when they're caught.

A spider wouldn't care about armor and stuff.

In nature spiders inject some kind of acid into their victim's body, which liquifies their innards, regardless of how thick their chitin armor is.

If it doesn't break the game's balance I'd prefer if Skyrim spiders behave in a similar fashion.

Kazyn · March 15, 2016

Well, you've certainly a similar mind to mine, in that I believe in highly limiting the availability of fast travel if not disabling it entirely.

Absolutely! Only time I use it is to go to my little hut outside Riverwood when I want to update my mods or my MO structure, and then go straight back to where I was.

Anything else is just straightforward cheating...

Mind you, I have never yet finished a complete playthrough before my game was FUBAR....

It's pretty rare these days that I make it past level 5 before my load order changes and I have to start over, lol

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I think you could let the players keep their equipment when they're caught.

A spider wouldn't care about armor and stuff.

In nature spiders inject some kind of acid into their victim's body, which liquifies their innards, regardless of how thick their chitin armor is.

If it doesn't break the game's balance I'd prefer if Skyrim spiders behave in a similar fashion.

Actually I was all for the player keeping their stuff. The problem was there was this issue with the animations that caused some unusual clipping and positioning of gear. In a far previous build there was an instance where instead the player kept their gear but it was just all unequipped to help alleviate that strangeness. This was a long time ago and I can't remember what it was, but there was also a problem with players keeping their gear too. I just can't remember what it was -.-. So that was my uh... band-aid solution. New build has players keeping their gear again. Main issue is controlling flow and followers. They just don't want to behave.

EDIT: Oh wait, I remember what it was now. Some mods like Equip overhaul or whatever that show your weapons on your back/in their sheaths will still show up even when not equipped.

EDIT 2: BALANCE QUESTION!

In addition to the default poison effects of Frostbite Spiders:

-Spider spit now slows.

-Spider bites now paralyze (up to a max of 8 seconds).

-The magnitude and duration respectively is affected by the size of the spider. The smallest spiders do not paralyze.

What I'm considering:

-Should spiders still be tougher? (More health)

-Should spiders hit harder? (More damage output)

For those interested, give me your thoughts.

iorelsan · March 16, 2016

As of the balance bit, yeah I do agree that spiders need a buff (at least the common ones, the big boss ones might be fine-ish) because if you are going the DA route, its going to be impossible to die to a spider on a normal play unless you die on purpose (which kills the intention of the mod in my opinion)

Adding a slow and a paralyze seems like the right way to go, though... maybe make the paralyze a % chance to happen? or else engaging in melee is just not going to be possible, at least with a random chance you can risk it and decide to burst it down on melee.

Slow on the other hand will make things complicated for ranged characters because it will make kiting harder and will get easier within melee range which as already established is risky. So this sounds great in paper.

As of the dps/health ratio I am not entirely sure if it needs to be touched, I guess that bit will surface with actual testing. Because with the addition of the slow/paralyze mechanics might be enough to make losing against a spider actually a thing. Though if one needs to be touched I say health, makes for longer and more tense battles, than quick and cheap "deaths".

In my head a fight with a tough spider should be a losing fight, the longer you stay in the fight, the more likely the spider will win. This is because the whole spider theme is that they cripple their victims one way or another (binding them partially, slowing them, poisoning them etc). Talking about poison maybe adding a DoT component would be great.... though that could lead to potential bugs I assume (getting killed after killing the spider etc). Maybe as well make their spits to have a chance to actually root you in place for a few seconds.

Of course all of this comes from a design perspective and not from an actual feasible thing, so I know maybe half of what I said cant be done =p.

Storms of Superior · March 16, 2016

As of the balance bit, yeah I do agree that spiders need a buff (at least the common ones, the big boss ones might be fine-ish) because if you are going the DA route, its going to be impossible to die to a spider on a normal play unless you die on purpose (which kills the intention of the mod in my opinion)

Adding a slow and a paralyze seems like the right way to go, though... maybe make the paralyze a % chance to happen? or else engaging in melee is just not going to be possible, at least with a random chance you can risk it and decide to burst it down on melee.

Slow on the other hand will make things complicated for ranged characters because it will make kiting harder and will get easier within melee range which as already established is risky. So this sounds great in paper.

As of the dps/health ratio I am not entirely sure if it needs to be touched, I guess that bit will surface with actual testing. Because with the addition of the slow/paralyze mechanics might be enough to make losing against a spider actually a thing. Though if one needs to be touched I say health, makes for longer and more tense battles, than quick and cheap "deaths".

In my head a fight with a tough spider should be a losing fight, the longer you stay in the fight, the more likely the spider will win. This is because the whole spider theme is that they cripple their victims one way or another (binding them partially, slowing them, poisoning them etc). Talking about poison maybe adding a DoT component would be great.... though that could lead to potential bugs I assume (getting killed after killing the spider etc). Maybe as well make their spits to have a chance to actually root you in place for a few seconds.

Of course all of this comes from a design perspective and not from an actual feasible thing, so I know maybe half of what I said cant be done =p.

Actually, the slow effect can be implemented easily through the poison spit attack. I have worked with poisons before, and the slow effect is one of my interests that I keep at the forefront. Go ahead and mess around in the CK. It doesn't take long to figure out alchemy and magic effects.

Kazyn · March 16, 2016

Well the spider spit is fairly easy to dodge, so I figure the slow is more than fair. Also, given that you'll rarely if ever face more than 2 giant spiders at a time, I think a guaranteed paralysis may still be the way to go. It makes you rely heavily on bashing to stop their bite attacks. I was doing some testing earlier and spawned five giant frostbite spiders on top of me with these changes ("player.placeatme 23aab 5" in the console if anyone else wants to see how they fare) and I actually held out for quite a long while.

This was after I had cleared Crovangr Broodlair which is the location with the most vanilla-placed spiders I'm led to believe. This was also with a level 27 character. Regular frostbite spiders are only level 14 with the white giant spiders being something like level 17.

Another thing I'm dabbling with is making a stronger, higher level spider and adding it to the applicable leveled character lists.

Regardless, I think what I'll do (if I can figure it out) is make the paralysis chance a configurable amount in the MCM... again, assuming I can figure it out. Personally, I would run 100%, but this would not be everyone's cup of tea. My battle tactics tend to revolve around kiting like a bawss. Also, this kiting's only possible because of navmesh exploits and silly AI.

Varithina · March 16, 2016

Another thing I'm dabbling with is making a stronger, higher level spider and adding it to the applicable leveled character lists.

Try having a look at this http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/27866/?

It adds high level enemies itself, it can also increase their magic and damage resistance if you install the optional mods.

gilgameshmkii · March 16, 2016

Yes, there are other mods that handle the toughness of mobs, but additional option in MCM wouldn't hurt. Adding difficulty in creative ways is also nice - the paralysis that was mentioned, the spiders could also theoretically shoot web at your mouth to stop you from casting/shouting, or disarming you with web. Could also add 'special' elite spiders that are invisible at the start of combat.

Kazyn · March 16, 2016

I'll certainly keep all of these things in mind. Enemies from other leveled lists are already pretty tough from other mods, but I'll definitely keep Varithina's suggestion in mind. As for modifying spider abilities themselves, I'll start with something simple, see how it goes, and then start to add or remove extra features depending on how it plays out. I've suffered from spreading myself too thin before. Rest assured though, chance of silence or attack speed reductions etc. will definitely be first on my list of considerations to add. : )

Averagezombie · March 17, 2016

EDIT 2: BALANCE QUESTION!

In addition to the default poison effects of Frostbite Spiders:

-Spider spit now slows.

-Spider bites now paralyze (up to a max of 8 seconds).

-The magnitude and duration respectively is affected by the size of the spider. The smallest spiders do not paralyze.

What I'm considering:

-Should spiders still be tougher? (More health)

-Should spiders hit harder? (More damage output)

For those interested, give me your thoughts.

In terms of balancing, I would think you could go about this in a few ways and would recommend you clarify to yourself what you intend to do. Specifically, what are you designing spiders to do? Some questions may be...

1. Are spiders more dangerous in packs or by themselves?

2. Do they become more dangerous as the fight progresses?

3. Do they snowball? (recursive power iterations)

4. Do they snare? (crowd control, debuffs, etc)

5. Are they dangerous because of long term effects (eg. disease or poison)

6. Are they becoming more dangerous in melee or range?

For the balance questions.

1. on hit slows are good because it increases danger to melee and increases danger to group tactics. If you want them to snowball, have the effect stack which makes them more dangerous as the player gets weaker. If you want it to be more dangerous have the slow scale with missing health.

2. paralysis is the strongest effect in the game practically because it shuts the player down with no real counterplay. I would recommend to use it sparingly or trigger the spiders to start applying webs instead of attacking once the paralysis is applied. Focus should be on keeping the player challenged, but not frustrated.

For your considerations, I would say toughness is tricky to balance. More health and damage is easy to do relatively. Another possibility is give them a cloak effect to detect health percentage around them that applies a magic effect that increases move speed based on missing health (blood in the water type of mechanic). Could also give them a health drain or stamina damage effect on hit.

Kazyn · March 17, 2016

Frustration from paralysis was a concern of mine. I myself find paralysis to be quite frustrating at times, but at the same time had it present to further encourage tactical play when in melee range. Dodging spider spit is something I regard to be easy, mainly because of the windup animation that plays warning you the spit is coming, as well as the slow missile speed in the projectile of the spit itself. The idea behind the paralysis was "oh crap! Ya got me!" situation.

Meanwhile spiders are rarely found in large groups and if they are grouped, it's usually several small ones that go down in one or two hits. The most I've seen from Bethesda is two giant frostbite spiders together and nothing more.

I'm not looking to do anything crazy in terms of balance, because frankly, it can never be universally achieved among EVERYBODY. Of course, that's also the intent of the MCM, but giving the spiders too many mechanics can also be frustrating.

A final note for this post: Being webbed also had a way of mimicking the paralysis effect in the first place. Apart from spamming buttons to break out, there was nothing you could do to prevent further incoming attacks. Sure they might ignore you for a bit until you break out but you still have to get up at which point they're already usually moving back toward you.

Averagezombie · March 17, 2016

A fair point. Stamina drain into paralysis if the stamina falls under a cut off point would be a decent approach because it has the potential be counter and places importance on keeping stamina from dropping while giving you the "oh shit, I should have stopped that and now they got me" situation. It would make something that normally feels like a dump stat feel much more important while fighting spiders and give you some lenience for balance and players can creation potions or gear to mitigate the effect.

Kazyn · March 17, 2016

Also a fair point. I'll look into paralysis being inflicted when under a certain threshold. If I can figure it out, I'll try and make that threshold configurable as well.

Storms of Superior · March 17, 2016

I was thinking the same when I suggested that the spit attack slows so the spider can catch the player in order to inject venom that would paralyze. It would be a two-step, dynamic attack that way.

Tougher spiders would work well, but spiders that deal more damage would ruin the immersion of being captured alive. Those are my thoughts.

DonQuiWho · March 18, 2016

@ Kazyn

Posted Yesterday, 05:35 AM

'Meanwhile spiders are rarely found in large groups'

FWIW, to liberate this property, you have to beat a whole mob of the big black ones - I have a spider retexture, so not sure if everyone will have/see the same style...

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/52460/?

It seems to be a once only task though :-/

Nepro · March 28, 2016

What will happen to the follower if player escapes from the cave and leave the follower behind in the cocoon? Does follower get killed?

Kazyn · March 28, 2016

If the follower is essential, they should be dismissed and returned home. If they're not essential, they should be killed.

bleeb · March 29, 2016

So.. I assume the progress on this mod is done? sounds like you've moved on Kazyn.

Kazyn · March 29, 2016

No it's not, just on some snags. The new version is pretty much done, apart from some weird follower issues, I think. There's just a lot of small bugs/inconsistencies that are just very difficult for me to locate. Example: Event A occurs, Result A occurs. Seemingly Event A occurs again, but then Result B or maybe even Result C occurs, when Result A is expected. Honestly, that has been the most frustrating part of this mod all along.

But I feel there are too many of these inconsistencies to release to others at the moment.

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