A "What was that?" moment.

[rjn]

Travelling up the side road towards Wolfskull Cave I spotted a troop of Thalmor running towards me on the road.  No big deal, but they were being pursed by a ghost horse charging after them - and bringing up the rear was the headless horseman ghost frantically chasing his horse.

[Grey Cloud]

3 hours ago, rjn said:

and bringing up the rear was the headless horseman ghost frantically chasing his horse.

That was the rare horseless, headless horseman.

[Melissa_69]

I had this happened while I was in that direction but I decided to kill the Thalmors, I hate them.

[MorePrinniesDood]

On 4/18/2025 at 12:41 PM, Melissa_69 said:

I had this happened while I was in that direction but I decided to kill the Thalmors, I hate them.

 

There are people who don't kill the random Thalmor patrols?

[Melissa_69]

3 hours ago, MorePrinniesDood said:

 

There are people who don't kill the random Thalmor patrols?

I do, I despite them. I even went as far as going to the Thalmor Embassy to wipe them all out except Elenwen, she wouldn't die lol.

[Darkpig]

3 hours ago, MorePrinniesDood said:

 

There are people who don't kill the random Thalmor patrols?

Sometimes I just stealthily tail them because they make good cannon fodder for which to make my escape.

Edited April 21, 2025 by Darkpig

[Count Chocula]

4 hours ago, MorePrinniesDood said:

 

There are people who don't kill the random Thalmor patrols?

Sure. Unless one of the reasons you play is to just run around and kill things, killing them does nothing to further the story (although no doubt there are mods that make it part of a story). Killing dragons furthers the story. Killing vampires furthers the Dawnguard story, plus they appear and attack first. Killing bandits guarding a quest objective furthers the story. Killing Dark Brotherhood targets furthers that story. Killing the Thalmor patrols is as pointless story-wise as killing non-hostile wildlife is.

[Darkpig]

2 hours ago, chocula said:

Sure. Unless one of the reasons you play is to just run around and kill things, killing them does nothing to further the story (although no doubt there are mods that make it part of a story). Killing dragons furthers the story. Killing vampires furthers the Dawnguard story, plus they appear and attack first. Killing bandits guarding a quest objective furthers the story. Killing Dark Brotherhood targets furthers that story. Killing the Thalmor patrols is as pointless story-wise as killing non-hostile wildlife is.

Except non-hostile wildlife are far more likeable than the Thalmor ever were or really most characters in Skyrim.

[Count Chocula]

1 hour ago, Darkpig said:

Except non-hostile wildlife are far more likeable than the Thalmor ever were or really most characters in Skyrim.

If critter likability is relevant to someone for random killing, sure. For me, the question is "Do I want to spend time doing something that does not really have anything to do with the story?" For me, that answer is "No, I don't."

[FauxFurry]

4 hours ago, chocula said:

Sure. Unless one of the reasons you play is to just run around and kill things, killing them does nothing to further the story (although no doubt there are mods that make it part of a story). Killing dragons furthers the story. Killing vampires furthers the Dawnguard story, plus they appear and attack first. Killing bandits guarding a quest objective furthers the story. Killing Dark Brotherhood targets furthers that story. Killing the Thalmor patrols is as pointless story-wise as killing non-hostile wildlife is.

If the emergent story that a person is playing out using gameplay as their medium centers on tripping up the Thalmor, then slaying them wherever they may be is central to their story. 

[Count Chocula]

36 minutes ago, FauxFurry said:

If the emergent story that a person is playing out using gameplay as their medium centers on tripping up the Thalmor, then slaying them wherever they may be is central to their story. 

If someone is playing in their head canon, fine. I don't play in a head canon. If I had mod installed that made killing Thalmor patrols part of its story, then I would attack them. And I'm sure there's no end of "trip up the Thalmor" mods. "Killing" pixels simply for the sake of "killing" pixels doesn't do anything for me. EDIT: Or if someone kills them because they want the loot, sure, that makes sense to me. Our characters need loot (at least until they get to the point where they have more gold then they'll ever need).

Edited April 22, 2025 by chocula

[Miauzi]

Vor 11 Minuten sagte chocula:

Wenn jemand in seinem Kopfkanon spielt, ist das in Ordnung. Ich spiele nicht in einem Kopfkanon. Wenn ich einen Mod installiert hätte, der das Töten von Thalmor-Patrouillen zu einem Teil der Geschichte macht, würde ich sie angreifen. Wenn ich den Thalmor ein Bein stellen wollte, bin ich mir sicher, dass es unzählige Mods gibt, die das zum Teil der Geschichte machen. Pixel zu töten, nur um Pixel zu töten, bringt mir nichts.

 

Seriously?

Really?

 

I've been playing "computer games" for more than 40 years... and reading novels, novellas, stories, etc. for more than 50 years.

 

All of this takes place IN the respective person's respective "head canon"... that's my own life experience.

 

And there's nothing "bad" about that... for me, it shows that we are all individuals... and that's really good.

 

Of course, your own "head canon" isn't as exotic as my own... but that's neither "good" nor "bad"... it just shows that we humans are different!!

 

And in each of my more than 20 "playthroughs" of Skyrim, I've set a different "canon" for myself... why should I do the same thing twice, or even twice??

Why am I still "activating" the same game after almost 15-20 years?? -> it allows us a very individual "escape from reality" - and here I can decide how certain things unfold... something that is simply NOT possible for me in "real life"!

 

We should all remember that being "human" includes the ability to "play a game"... without such a thing, the "hairless apes of this provincial planet" would have collectively "shot themselves in the head" long ago...

 

😇

[Count Chocula]

2 hours ago, Miauzi said:

I've been playing "computer games" for more than 40 years... and reading novels, novellas, stories, etc. for more than 50 years.

 

All of this takes place IN the respective person's respective "head canon"... that's my own life experience.

😇

Really?

Seriously?

Then you and I play computer games quite differently. And to reply to a part of your post I snipped, no one said "head canons" are bad. How someone else plays a single player computer game is no skin of my ass.

 

If I want an open-ended experience along the lines of what you seem to be talking about, I play a TTRPG (which I do a lot of).

 

When you ask "Why should I do the same thing twice?" during different Skyrim playthroughs,, well, you do do the same thing twice. Changing your "head canon" doesn't change going to Sovngarde and killing Alduin. Unless you installed a mod that changes it, it's the same thing every time and you know exactly how it's going to go down (which is why people make and install mods).

 

I just finished the Dawnguard storyline and I find the slog though the Darkfall Passage and the Vale for Auriel's Bow so fuckin' tedious that I cheated through parts of it. No amount of pretending on my part that it's different (i.e, using a different "head canon") is going to change that or lessen the tedium (overall I like Dawnguard or I wouldn't do it at all).

 

That's one gigantic difference between a computer game and a TTRPG. The computer game can only do what it's set up to do. In a TTRPG, the players (which includes the game master) can create an infinite variety of situations in the story they collectively build. That's not a slap at computer games, because that's not something computer games can do. That would be like someone criticizing me for being unable to run as fast as an Olympic sprinter.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, chocula said:

someone is playing in their head canon

Head Canon's are in Fallout 4, one of the rare mutations that occurred after the war.  

       

 

Besides... every time I pass by the Thalmor there are usually antagonistic words hurled so yup... Slaying time, then back to nice and quiet! 

Edited April 22, 2025 by Raven 54

[Miauzi]

Vor 6 Stunden sagte chocula:

Wirklich?

Ernsthaft?

Dann spielen wir Computerspiele ganz anders. Und um auf einen Teil deines Beitrags zu antworten, den ich weggelassen habe: Niemand hat gesagt, dass „Kopfkanonen“ schlecht sind. Wie jemand anderes ein Einzelspieler-Computerspiel spielt, geht mich nichts an.

 

Wenn ich ein Erlebnis mit offenem Ausgang in der Art haben möchte, wie Sie es anscheinend beschreiben, spiele ich ein TTRPG (was ich häufig tue).

 

Wenn Sie sich fragen: „Warum sollte ich dasselbe zweimal tun?“, während Sie Skyrim durchspielen, nun ja, Sie tun dasselbe zweimal. Das Ändern Ihres „Kopfkanons“ ändert nichts daran, nach Sovngarde zu gehen und Alduin zu töten. Sofern Sie nicht einen Mod installiert haben, der dies ändert, ist es jedes Mal dasselbe und Sie wissen genau, wie es ausgehen wird (weshalb Leute Mods erstellen und installieren).

 

Ich habe gerade die Dawnguard-Storyline beendet und finde die mühsame Reise durch die Darkfall Passage und das Tal für Auriels Bogen so verdammt langweilig, dass ich teilweise geschummelt habe. Auch wenn ich so tue, als wäre es anders (z. B. mit einem anderen „Hauptkanon“), wird das nichts daran ändern oder die Langeweile verringern (insgesamt mag ich Dawnguard, sonst würde ich es gar nicht erst spielen).

 

Das ist ein riesiger Unterschied zwischen einem Computerspiel und einem TTRPG. Ein Computerspiel kann nur das tun, wofür es konzipiert wurde. In einem TTRPG können die Spieler (einschließlich des Spielleiters) eine unendliche Vielfalt an Situationen in der Geschichte erschaffen, die sie gemeinsam erschaffen. Das ist kein Angriff auf Computerspiele, denn das können Computerspiele nicht. Das wäre, als würde mich jemand dafür kritisieren, dass ich nicht so schnell laufen kann wie ein olympischer Sprinter.

 

Why would someone travel to "Sovngarde" more than once and eliminate a dragon god there?

 

Because buying the game obligates you to complete the "endgame"?

 

More than 20 "playthroughs" and then not reaching the end?

 

Of course not... especially with series like "TES" or "Fallout," you can start dozens of times... without making it to the so-called "endgame."

 

And to keep things from getting boring -> I modify my games.

I've even played several hundred hours WITHOUT seeing a single dragon in the game!

 

Oh, by the way - I completed the quest line about the "stupid bow" and the little vampire waifu 5-6 times, right up until after Harkon's death... of course, I'm taking "shortcuts" here.

There's even a mod that gives the player a (Korean) companion who uses a "magic dance" to bring about these story advancements (with the associated teleportation).

But first, you have to exorcise her "fox spirit"!

[Count Chocula]

7 hours ago, Miauzi said:

Why would someone travel to "Sovngarde" more than once and eliminate a dragon god there?

 

Because buying the game obligates you to complete the "endgame"?

 

Oh, by the way - I completed the quest line about the "stupid bow" and the little vampire waifu 5-6 times, right up until after Harkon's death... of course, I'm taking "shortcuts" here.

You say you've done Dawnguard several times, but you question why a player would kill Alduin more than once? Maybe you meant that question to be a joke. Why would a player kill the king of the vampires more than once? You've done it more than once. Why? The answer is "Because you found it fun." Which is also the answer to your question about killing Alduin. There's only one reason to play a game or to do anything in that game: fun.

 

[Miauzi]

Gerade eben sagte Chocula:

Du sagst, du hast Dawnguard mehrmals gespielt, aber du fragst dich, warum ein Spieler Alduin mehr als einmal töten sollte? Vielleicht war die Frage scherzhaft gemeint. Warum sollte ein Spieler den König der Vampire mehr als einmal töten? Du hast es mehr als einmal getan. Warum? Die Antwort lautet: „Weil es dir Spaß gemacht hat.“ Das ist auch die Antwort auf deine Frage nach dem Töten von Alduin. Es gibt nur einen Grund, ein Spiel zu spielen oder irgendetwas darin zu tun: Spaß.

 

 

As long as the quest line isn't over with Harkon's death, Serana isn't considered a "normal" companion.

For me, that's the reason why I'm ultimately finishing this "non-epic" hunt for the damn bow.

 

And killing Harkon is no fun at all... because this final battle is completely bugged.

You can kill Harkon with a single blow - assuming you have the right skills and equipment... but then the entire "logic" breaks - the quest crashes.

Harkon must be wounded to such an extent that he MUST use the Blood Fountain... only then can he "be" killed.

 

Users of the "Serana dead sexy" mod have a companion in Serana - who can kill Harkon at any time with a single "snap of the fingers"... only then does the "engine logic" crash into oblivion.

 

I obviously have a completely different understanding of "fun" than you... but that's probably normal.

 

Ah, the final battle with "Miraak" triggers even more "excitement" for me... that's even more of a "pit of shit."

[Count Chocula]

2 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

 

As long as the quest line isn't over with Harkon's death, Serana isn't considered a "normal" companion.

For me, that's the reason why I'm ultimately finishing this "non-epic" hunt for the damn bow.

 

And killing Harkon is no fun at all... because this final battle is completely bugged.

 

I obviously have a completely different understanding of "fun" than you... but that's probably normal.

We all have slightly different ways we have fun. But that's not relevant. The point is, no one plays a game for any reason other than "to have fun." You say you kill Harkon because you want Serana to finally become a "normal" companion. Well, then, that is what's fun for you in finishing the quest and killing Harkon. When I do Dawnguard, I finish it because I enjoy the storyline (the hunt for the bow notwithstanding). Aside from the first time, I stop using Serana as a companion once I kill Harkon (I don't particularly like her personality or her VA's voice). I've played with Serana Dialog Add-on and Serana Relationship Revamped (but not Serana Dialog Edit) and neither of them add anything that I can recall that makes me want to keep her as a companion once the questline is over. Maybe one or both of those mods have something and I've simply never come across it.

 

If the final fight against Harkon is bugged, that's a different issue from "Why do Dawnguard more than once even while questioning why a player would kill Alduin more than once?"

[DocClox]

On 4/22/2025 at 4:03 AM, chocula said:

If I want an open-ended experience along the lines of what you seem to be talking about, I play a TTRPG (which I do a lot of).

 

My TTRPG group is all married with kids and scattered across three continents these days. I like games like Skyrim because they're about as close as I can get to that experience with a computer game.

 

And honestly, I've cleared the main quest so many times I could probably clear it in my sleep ("hey, you, you're finally awake "  🤣). So I tend to mess around with mods and spin my own plotlines using Skyrim and Alduin as a backdrop, and advancing the quest lines only as they suit my story.

 

As for "headcanon", isn't that the point? There *is* no canon storyline. The bare essentials are fixed, but most of the story lies in the sidequests and activities. Were they warrior, rogue, or mage? Stormcloak or Imperial? Vampire or Dawnguard? Where did they live?  Fud they marry? Have children?

 

Any telling of the main story is going to be a collaboration of the player and the game's designers, and it honesty breaks my heart that so many people take the one thing that make Bethesda games special and dismiss is as " just headcanon".

 

OK. Bit of a hobby horse of mine there. Rant over 😄

[Count Chocula]

2 hours ago, DocClox said:

My TTRPG group is all married with kids and scattered across three continents these days. I like games like Skyrim because they're about as close as I can get to that experience with a computer game.

 

As for "headcanon", isn't that the point? There *is* no canon storyline. The bare essentials are fixed, but most of the story lies in the sidequests and activities. Were they warrior, rogue, or mage? Stormcloak or Imperial? Vampire or Dawnguard? Where did they live?  Fud they marry? Have children?

When I say "head canon" I mean pretending something is true (or false) about the game world or the stories that are not as they are presented in the game, whether that be vanilla or by mods.

 

And there is a canonical story, for every quest in the game. For example, in Dawnguard, the player character is either a member of the Dawnguard working the destroy Harkon, or they are  working for Harkon to destroy the Dawnguard. If a player wants to pretend their character is the leader of another powerful vampire clan and is using the Dawnguard to destroy a powerful rival, without installing a mod to implement that, that's pure head canon.

 

Lack of people to play TTRPGs with is one reason people who like TTRPGs might play a computer game like Skyrim. It's a poor substitute for a TTRPG, but that doesn't mean it's not fun.

[DocClox]

6 hours ago, chocula said:

When I say "head canon" I mean pretending something is true (or false) about the game world or the stories that are not as they are presented in the game, whether that be vanilla or by mods.

 

Pretending is what it's all about though. This is make believe for grown ups.

 

6 hours ago, chocula said:

And there is a canonical story, for every quest in the game

 

Actually there isn't. In fact Bethesda have repeatedly declined to offer a canon version of events for anything in the games. 'Least, according to the sidebar on Reddit's /r/teslore. They take this sort of thing seriously, so I'm inclined to believe it.

 

6 hours ago, chocula said:

For example, in Dawnguard, the player character is either a member of the Dawnguard working the destroy Harkon, or they are  working for Harkon to destroy the Dawnguard

 

Case in point. Which faction did the canon Dragonborn join? There is no canon. About all you can say with certainty is that TLD defeated Alduin and Miraak. Probably have to credit him )or her - no canon gender either) with defeating Harkon, but if it wasn't for a single line of dialogue from Durneviir, anyone could have done it.

 

7 hours ago, chocula said:

If a player wants to pretend their character is the leader of another powerful vampire clan and is using the Dawnguard to destroy a powerful rival, without installing a mod to implement that, that's pure head canon.

 

I don't see why it has to be any sort of canon at all, to be honest. I spend most of my time playing as a vampire mage seeking out the writings of his ancient ancestor and keeping a harem of beautiful vampire cattle to sustain him in his search, but it's never once crossed my mind to suggest that was anything other than me RPing. To call it "headcanon" makes it sound tawdry and trivial, something that some speccy horror somewhere wants you to believe is part of the lore, even  though there's no support for his version of events.

 

This isn't that. This is the game's primary function. It's why we do it, so we can spin out own narratives.

 

7 hours ago, chocula said:

It's a poor substitute for a TTRPG, but that doesn't mean it's not fun.

 

It#s not that poor.  Granted, a cRPG is never going to be as responsive and flexible as a human GM, but with a little creativity it can scratch the same itch. You just haven't got to play it like some on-rails jRPG where the main story is everything and any side missions are utterly trivial.

[Count Chocula]

5 hours ago, DocClox said:

 

Pretending is what it's all about though. This is make believe for grown ups.

 

 

Actually there isn't. In fact Bethesda have repeatedly declined to offer a canon version of events for anything in the games. 'Least, according to the sidebar on Reddit's /r/teslore. They take this sort of thing seriously, so I'm inclined to believe it.

 

Case in point. Which faction did the canon Dragonborn join? There is no canon. About all you can say with certainty is that TLD defeated Alduin and Miraak. Probably have to credit him )or her - no canon gender either) with defeating Harkon, but if it wasn't for a single line of dialogue from Durneviir, anyone could have done it.

 

It#s not that poor.  Granted, a cRPG is never going to be as responsive and flexible as a human GM, but with a little creativity it can scratch the same itch. You just haven't got to play it like some on-rails jRPG where the main story is everything and any side missions are utterly trivial.

No, pretending has nothing to do with it. I don't sit around and imagine the world of Skyrim is different from what the game, or the mods I have installed, presents to me. If I want to play as a, to use the same example I used before, Thalmor agent, I'll install a mod that has that in its story. Simply pretending my character is a Thalmor agent doesn't do it for me. If it does it for other players, good for them.

 

Bethesda can say there's no canon, but there is. Every story can go down in only a limited number of ways. In the civil war, without mods, you have three options, canonically. Anything beyond those three options is not canon, whether that be by "head canon" or mods.

 

Yes, a good computer game can scratch the TTRPG itch, a little bit. But they are also fun in their own right. Some people no doubt prefer computer games and also play TTRPGs. I prefer TTRPGs and also play computer games. I don't expect a computer game to offer anything even remotely close to the role playing I do in a TTRPG, because it can't (and AI has a long way to before it can).

[DocClox]

13 hours ago, chocula said:

No, pretending has nothing to do with it.

 

Oh, pretending has everything to do with it! "Pretending" is just the use of imagination, and without imagination, we're just sitting watching patterns of pixels on a computer monitor.

 

13 hours ago, chocula said:

I don't sit around and imagine the world of Skyrim is different from what the game, or the mods I have installed, presents to me

 

Of course not, that would be silly. On the other hand, the game leaves vast tracts of detail open to the player's interpretation. Here you can spin whatever stories you like. Those details are left vague precisely so we can do this.

 

13 hours ago, chocula said:

Simply pretending my character is a Thalmor agent doesn't do it for me.

 

Well, Lord knows I'm not going to ask you to do anything you don't want to do. Still, as long as it doesn't contradict anything in game, why not be a Thalmor agent? I expect the Thalmor are as keen to live on a world un-eaten by Alduin as anyone else. It's unfortunate that you couldn't read Elenwen in on your identity, but tackling Alduin meant going off-mission and you couldn't take the chance that she might interfere. On the other hand, Ancano was mad and Estromo refused to listen to reason, so there shouldn't be a problem squaring that away in your final report. Just don't interfere in the Civil War and I don't see a problem.

 

13 hours ago, chocula said:

Bethesda can say there's no canon, but there is. Every story can go down in only a limited number of ways. In the civil war, without mods, you have three options, canonically. Anything beyond those three options is not canon, whether that be by "head canon" or mods.

 

That's ... not what canon means.

 

Canon is a religious term used to denote the body of dogma sanctioned by the head of the Church. The term was adopted by gamers to describe appealing to the IP holder for a work to settle disputes about what really happened in a game - debates often conducted with similarly religious fervor.

 

If the body authorized to set canon (Bethesda in this instance) declines to do so, then there is no canon.

 

13 hours ago, chocula said:

Every story can go down in only a limited number of ways. In the civil war, without mods, you have three options, canonically

 

Ah, but canon has a single correct answer to everything. Expanding the concept to "it's one of three things" is itself  headcanon, and can thus be disregarded.

 

13 hours ago, chocula said:

Yes, a good computer game can scratch the TTRPG itch, a little bit.

 

I don't have a problem with you having a preference in the matter.

[belegost]

On 4/21/2025 at 4:13 PM, MorePrinniesDood said:

 

There are people who don't kill the random Thalmor patrols?

No, I fuck them first. Or have them fuck me first. Whichever I feel more like doing at the moment.

[Grey Cloud]

With apologies to Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

Canon to right of them,

Canon to left of them,

Canon in front of them

 

but