FNIS 4.1 Experimental: Can it solve some Load Game CTDs?

[fore]

User test indicate that with it's Behavior files structure (all custom behavior files are linked through a seperate custom file, FNISRoot_Behavior.hkx)

FNIS might contribute to CTDs when loading a save game.

Especially when CTDs are not permanent, or can be circumvented by first loading an older save game, and then loading the problem one.   

 

The FNIS 4.1 Experimental patch  tries to work-around these CTDs by linking the custom behaviors directly from Skyrim's 0_master.hkx. But since making this change has considerable impact on users, I don't want to permanently implement this change until I can be sure it is really beneficial.

 

Users having Load CTD problems download FNIS 4.1 Experimental, and install it on top of FNIS 4.0.2. To uninstall this patch, simply re-install FNIS 4.0.2

 

I DO NOT RECOMMEND INSTALLING FNIS 4.1 Experimental WHEN YOU DON'T EXPERIENCE LOAD CTDs. And IT WILL NOT HELP non-FNIS USERS. And PLEASE: Give feed-back if this patch fixes your problem.

[Shor]

OK, first I don't want to make assumptions - so what is the back out procedure?  Will using this patch result in saves that are no longer compatible?

 

Now, where is the file?

[Uriel]

Thanks for trying to fix this, Fore.

For now all i know here is that FNIS is indeed somehow involved in those CTD's and maybe ILS's. I had all this nearly everywhere some time ago, and started to search for the solution. In the process i found that removing all the damn lot of custom animations i were using(PCEA, gender spec, SL stuff, all the posers around) immediately helped with the problem - i were able to load a save that would otherwise crash.

I also did a couple of Process Monitor logs when Skyrim ILS's in Whiterun, and found that the last activity Skyrim does in this case is loading an animation file.

 

I'll try installing a bunch of anims again to look what happens with this version.

 

OK, first I don't want to make assumptions - so what is the back out procedure?  Will using this patch result in saves that are no longer compatible?

 

Now, where is the file?

The file is... guess where? It's on the Nexus! Because that's where you get your FNIS copy.

FNIS has nothing to do with saves. If you encounter a problem, install the release version again and rerun generator. That's all.

[Aegis]

Hmm, I definitely see an improvement. Loading a save in a cell with ~50 spawned npcs used to always crash on load, but with 4.1 the game only crashes ~30% of the time.

 

I'm curious though, what are the potential side effects for using a single master file to link all the behaviors?

[unscwupulous]

Will give this a whirl later, see if it helps me-  Thanks a lot!

[fore]

Thanks for trying to fix this, Fore.

For now all i know here is that FNIS is indeed somehow involved in those CTD's and maybe ILS's. I had all this nearly everywhere some time ago, and started to search for the solution. In the process i found that removing all the damn lot of custom animations i were using(PCEA, gender spec, SL stuff, all the posers around) immediately helped with the problem - i were able to load a save that would otherwise crash.

I also did a couple of Process Monitor logs when Skyrim ILS's in Whiterun, and found that the last activity Skyrim does in this case is loading an animation file.

 

I'll try installing a bunch of anims again to look what happens with this version.

 

 

Hmm, I definitely see an improvement. Loading a save in a cell with ~50 spawned npcs used to always crash on load, but with 4.1 the game only crashes ~30% of the time.

 

I'm curious though, what are the potential side effects for using a single master file to link all the behaviors?

 

I'm really interested in the responses. E.g. statements like 100% -> 30% also might help.

 

The problem with FNIS based behavior files is that they are isolated applications. In Skyrim everything evolves. It starts with 0_master.hkx, and then "special" situations will cause other behavior files (1hm_behavior, weapequip, ...) to be loaded via specific AnimEvents. I don't have this environment for FNIS based mods. Or every mod would have to send an AnimEvent before it starts regular animations. But I will look further into possible solution.

 

The down side is that now instead of generating a small FNISRoot_Behavior.hkx a large 0_master.hkx has to be generated (from a 52.000 lines xml file). And other mods modifying 0_master will not (fully) work any more (e.g. xp32's New Animation Pack makes a few fixes to 0_master).

[Crowzer]

I'm extremely concerned by Fore original post. I never was able to use FNIS without CTD on startup and after.

 

It's time to do some test !

[venomg3]

went to whiterun midday (12) saved at 2nd brazier on stairs near dragonsreach looking toward the market quit skyrim

 

4.0.2 loaded then quit that save 5 times

1 crash 4 loads

 

4.1.0 loaded then quit that save 5 times

no crashs

 

returned to 4.0.2 after dl fnis 4.0.2 again to get the fnis 0_master.hkx as 4.0.2 threw a warning about 4.1s 0_master

 

2 crashs 3 loads

 

----

gonna try just running around playing with 4.1 installed now plus im in whiterun and i hate that place

 

 

[cornbreadtm]

I was having loading crashes but they were rare and seemingly random, I'll try this out and see if Fnis was the cause though my rose-tinted glasses tell me it's not.

[Uriel]

The down side is that now instead of generating a small FNISRoot_Behavior.hkx a large 0_master.hkx has to be generated (from a 52.000 lines xml file). And other mods modifying 0_master will not (fully) work any more (e.g. xp32's New Animation Pack makes a few fixes to 0_master).

Then PCEA is in the list too i suppose?

[Cyndi]

First test:

 

 

 

Location: Riverwood under the Riverwood trader sign

4.1Fnis

3 load, 7 crashes

4.0.2 Fnis

0 load, 10 crashes

 

Location: Whiterun Beside the barrels at the blacksmith, facing towards the market

4.1 Fnis

2 load, 8 crashes

4.0.2 Fnis

1 load, 9 crashes

 

 

 

 

Side note:

4.1 Conflicts with Momo Jump for me regardless of install order, Xp32 will probably need to update it (Forward jump works backward jump fails, plays same as forward jump).

It overwrites 0_master.hkx

Edit: but you knew that already.

 

Control test:

 

 

 

Removed momo aj, (only mod I've kept since pre fnis which is about when I started getting crash on loads (iirc). non-fnis version is for v1.5 or lower skyrim)... Either that or it was when switching from 3.1.1 to 3.3.something Fnis, it's a little hard to remember.

 

4.1 Fnis

Riverwood, as above:

2 load, 8 crashes

WR, as above

3 load, 7 crashes

 

4.0.2 Fnis

Riverwood

1 load, 9 crashes

WR

0 load, 10 crashes

 

 

 

 

So...  roughly 20% average improvement over 40 vs 40 loads, but that's still a 75%'ish crash rate. So it's still easier for me to load an old save (nothing later than the execution scene at helgin) or coc qasmoke and then load a game.

 

I haven't tested this since I first started using fnis, but at that time, with no fnis, or animations it was more like a 5% crash rate. I'm not due for a clean install of skyrim for a little bit yet, and really don't want to try with it cleaned out again just now as another control test lol.

I've been playing on laptops aswell (2 different ones) the entire time, so some of that is more than likely spec related I would think.

Hardware Ref

[DeepBlueFrog]

I have been plagued with CTD on Load and infinite loading screens ever since I found LL mods.

I would never have thought to blame FNIS... my sights were on a necessary evil for SexLab

 

So far so good... a quick test yielded: 2 direct loads without crash and no infinite loading screen entering windhlem and whiterun (my usual test cases).

 

This looks very promising!

 

Edit: Nevermind - I take that back.

 

Crash on load returned.

 

[Crowzer]

I tested a bit and it works well for now. Tested on few zones and no issues so far.

Anyways, I'll wait that 4.1 files turn from expiremental to beta (or something else)

[dTd]

Was about to test this when I read that it won't work with xp32 animation package, that's a must for me.

[fore]

 

The down side is that now instead of generating a small FNISRoot_Behavior.hkx a large 0_master.hkx has to be generated (from a 52.000 lines xml file). And other mods modifying 0_master will not (fully) work any more (e.g. xp32's New Animation Pack makes a few fixes to 0_master).

Then PCEA is in the list too i suppose?

 

 

Yes.

 

First test:

 

 

 

Location: Riverwood under the Riverwood trader sign

4.1Fnis

3 load, 7 crashes

4.0.2 Fnis

0 load, 10 crashes

 

Location: Whiterun Beside the barrels at the blacksmith, facing towards the market

4.1 Fnis

2 load, 8 crashes

4.0.2 Fnis

1 load, 9 crashes

 

 

 

 

Side note:

4.1 Conflicts with Momo Jump for me regardless of install order, Xp32 will probably need to update it (Forward jump works backward jump fails, plays same as forward jump).

It overwrites 0_master.hkx

Edit: but you knew that already.

 

Control test:

 

 

 

Removed momo aj, (only mod I've kept since pre fnis which is about when I started getting crash on loads (iirc). non-fnis version is for v1.5 or lower skyrim)... Either that or it was when switching from 3.1.1 to 3.3.something Fnis, it's a little hard to remember.

 

4.1 Fnis

Riverwood, as above:

2 load, 8 crashes

WR, as above

3 load, 7 crashes

 

4.0.2 Fnis

Riverwood

1 load, 9 crashes

WR

0 load, 10 crashes

 

 

 

 

So...  roughly 20% average improvement over 40 vs 40 loads, but that's still a 75%'ish crash rate. So it's still easier for me to load an old save (nothing later than the execution scene at helgin) or coc qasmoke and then load a game.

 

I haven't tested this since I first started using fnis, but at that time, with no fnis, or animations it was more like a 5% crash rate. I'm not due for a clean install of skyrim for a little bit yet, and really don't want to try with it cleaned out again just now as another control test lol.

I've been playing on laptops aswell (2 different ones) the entire time, so some of that is more than likely spec related I would think.

Hardware Ref

 

 

I have been plagued with CTD on Load and infinite loading screens ever since I found LL mods.

I would never have thought to blame FNIS... my sights were on a necessary evil for SexLab

 

So far so good... a quick test yielded: 2 direct loads without crash and no infinite loading screen entering windhlem and whiterun (my usual test cases).

 

This looks very promising!

 

Edit: Nevermind - I take that back.

 

Crash on load returned.

 

I didn't say it will fix ALL save load issues. Save load CTD happens with vanilla Skyrim, not to talk about modded games. But apparently FNIS has it's share, and that's what I want to at least reduce.

 

Was about to test this when I read that it won't work with xp32 animation package, that's a must for me.

 

There are only a few minor modifications (like MoMo that won't do). But as an animation replacer it will work as usual.

[tazdotnet]

safety load on nexus may eliminate some of the load CTD's - it did for me at least. I also use Enboost for the memory use reduction. using these may weed out some CTD's and make the info more useful - since I don't get load CTD's anymore I can't help much beyond that

[Cyndi]

 

**Snip**

 

I didn't say it will fix ALL save load issues. Save load CTD happens with vanilla Skyrim, not to talk about modded games. But apparently FNIS has it's share, and that's what I want to at least reduce.

**Snip**

 

 

Every little bit helps, and the 20% ctd reduction is still a 20% bonus.

That said,  I think you should just relax, take a break and enjoy the game yourself for a little while, after all you have more than earned it already.

 

Besides those us who are plagued with a ctd on load, have learned to live with it, or adapted in other ways by now for the most part.

[DeepBlueFrog]

I did more tests and there is definitely a reduction of CTDs on load.

Difficult to measure since they are more or less random (and I gave up loading my save games without loading a 'blank' save first).

 

So.. for now, it does seem to help

[bob11]

Well, let's see.  Tested it a bit.  Using SafetyLoad 1.2 and ENBoost.  For the record, ALL my exterior and most of my interior saves result in CTD on load, so I generally use qasmoke and then load the save in question (which works for all saves), unless I'm in Breezehome or warmaiden's.  We're talking about an insanely modded game through Mod Organizer (200+ .esps and a total of 500 combined mods loaded on MO).  Just saying that my default is 100% CTDs on load so I won't have to mention it again

 

1. Exteriors in Cities.  City loads are a mixed situation.  For example, Whiterun and Solitude during day hours seem to have become better by 50% at least (percentage seems to vary, need to run more tests).  That is I can actually attempt to load them and it often actually works.  

However, a Morthal save just outside the inn had 0% change (still crashes all the time).  Not sure WHY, but that's what it is.

 

2. Interior cells besides Breezehome (Breezehome and Warmaiden's do not crash): Depends on how many NPCs are there apparently.  

Bee and Barb (not during evening peak hours), with 3 custom NPCs added, seems to have a close to 100% improvement (it actually loads as many times as I tried, vast improvement).

Drunken Huntsman, with around 12 custom NPCs added, had a 20% improvement, (4 crashes, 1 load), but I'm almost certain the percentage is lower, although I didn't have time to get more load attempts.  But there was no way I could have loaded that save even once before without qasmoke.

 

Overall, you seem to be unto something there.  I'll take ANY improvement I can get.

[ballsy]

The ratio seems to be pretty much the same on my end. I run tests of 10, so I that might not be enough. 50/50 saves have remained more or less 50/50. I'm guessing FNIS never contributed to any of my load CTDs. 

[D_ManXX2]

previous version seem too crash my save game allot when i load it the first time. the new 4.1 seem to vanish my crashes also i used too get some weird animation like T-pose when loading the game first time reloading again would solve this now the T-Pose on load is gone completely.

 

So something was defenantly up in previous versions.

[tryguy]

Hey, good work, Fore.

 

I was getting CTDs almost every time I tried to load my game. I actually thought it was a mod conflict, but I streamlined my install, and it still did it.

 

Anyway, I was probably trying to load about 5 or 6 times before one would work. I didn't know about loading an old game and then the latest game. So I tried that just now, and that works too. So, I'm guessing it's the same problem that you've been working on.

 

So, I installed 4.1 and this one loads my game 3/3 times. 4.0.2 wouldn't have close to those stats. So, whatever it is you've changed, it's a big improvement.

 

Oh, and I noticed something you might be interested in. On the times when I was loading my game with 4.0.2, in the moments that it succeeded, and the scene was created, my character would first look like she had dark hair, but then morph into what she should look like. I'm pretty sure that happened constantly, and while I was waiting for it to load, I'd always try to look for that, so see what was really happening there. It only showed for a few milliseconds, so I couldn't really see much.

 

But, with the new version, I don't see that anymore. When the game come on, my character appears correctly right from the beginning. There's a noticeable difference there. And, well, I haven't played Skyrim for ages, but I'm getting back into it, and I'm pretty sure the new loads resemble what I was getting a year or so ago. And, the old loads were... definitely odd.

 

So, make of that what you will. I really hope that what you're doing isn't too much trouble. In any case, I think this one works a lot better than 4.0.2. So, thanks a lot.

[ballsy]

Alright. I've come across something interesting. 

 

9/10 successes in a previously fifty-fifty save. To anyone who hasn't already, make sure you have pinup poser and the series uninstalled prior to testing. I'll post further results after starting a new save without the pinup esps. 

 

I came across a blog post of tktks (mod author of ECE, tk histop, recoil, combat, ultimate combat etc) discussing 初回ロード時CTDについて. Basically the topic talks about CTDs on very-first loads. He's been discussing with kapaer on the issue, and the reason why pinup poser causes CTDs is because it continues to branch down from FNISRoot_Behavior and writing the necessary stuff for pinups_behavior causes issues or something like that which I can't really fully explain with my shitty level of Japanese.

 

 

He links to a file of a modified 0_master.hkx which attempts to solve whatever problems Pinup Poser had with FNIS. This occurred before the experminetal 4.1 patch, and thus the file is now irrelevant if you're using the 4.1 experimental since 0_master.hkx is remade each time you run the generator. Probably. 

 

It's a very rough outline of what I can understand on his blog, so it might be better if I just leave a link here: http://skyrimshot.blog.fc2.com/

tktk is awesome. He made a real sweetroll. 

[bob11]

 

Alright. I've come across something interesting. 

 

9/10 successes in a previously fifty-fifty save. To anyone who hasn't already, make sure you have pinup poser and the series uninstalled prior to testing. I'll post further results after starting a new save without the pinup esps. 

 

I came across a blog post of tktks (mod author of ECE, tk histop, recoil, combat, ultimate combat etc) discussing 初回ロード時CTDについて. Basically the topic talks about CTDs on very-first loads. He's been discussing with kapaer on the issue, and the reason why pinup poser causes CTDs is because it continues to branch down from FNISRoot_Behavior and writing the necessary stuff for pinups_behavior causes issues or something like that which I can't really fully explain with my shitty level of Japanese.

 

 

He links to a file of a modified 0_master.hkx which attempts to solve whatever problems Pinup Poser had with FNIS. This occurred before the experminetal 4.1 patch, and thus the file is now irrelevant if you're using the 4.1 experimental since 0_master.hkx is remade each time you run the generator. Probably. 

 

It's a very rough outline of what I can understand on his blog, so it might be better if I just leave a link here: http://skyrimshot.blog.fc2.com/

tktk is awesome. He made a real sweetroll. 

 

 

I hardly get CTDs if I remove Pinup Poser I already knew that xP  The Pinup Poser modder had some trouble wrapping his head around the probability that this mod is a major culprit for onload CTDs.  Thankfully this experimental build actually fixes many of the CTDs even with PP enabled.

[ballsy]

Yeah I figured it out a while ago as well, but forgot about it after moving all my mod packages to a new comp. Unfortunately 4.1 doesn't improve the situation with pinup poser for me, but even exterior saves load close to 100% of the time.