[mod] Carnalitas Slavery Reimagined

[pharaox]

View File

Carnalitas Slavery Reimagined

---

A comprehensive rework of the Carnalitas slavery system aiming at improved balance and better integration with other aspects of the game. Now also compatible with AGOT via a compatibility mod.

The latest version is compatible with CK3 1.12.x and Carnalitas 2.5. If you are still on CK3 1.11.x, use version 0.18.0 instead with Carnalitas 2.2.

The latest version of the CSR AGOT compatibility mod is compatible with CK3 1.12.x, Carnalitas 2.5, CSR 0.20.x, and AGOT 0.2.x. Use it with Carnalitas AGOT Compatibility.

Overview

Carnalitas added a much-needed slavery system to CK3. While this is great in itself and the basics of the original system are solid, there are certain things that could be improved, perhaps due to Carnalitas ambition to be a "unified sex mod framework" rather than a well-balanced mod in its own right.

In particular:

• Slave prices don't correspond well to other aspects of the game, they are way to high with claims and way to low otherwise.
• The reasons behind the AI accepting or initiating slavery interactions are not convincing, and the AI never initiates some of them.
• It's not exactly easy for the player to find rulers willing to buy or sell slaves, and there are rather few slaves owned by the AI to begin with.
• Enslave is possible on free courtiers, which doesn't make much sense.
• Once a prisoner is converted to a slave, it's no longer possible to ransom him or her.
• Religious doctrines that govern whether owning slaves of certain faiths is considered a crime, shunned, or accepted, are not followed consistently when determining if someone should be enslaved, freed, bought, or seized.

In a nutshell, what you can do as a player is easily enslave a lot of people, sell any you don't need to the AI, and buy any you may fancy from the AI, while the AI mostly passively obliges. With mods such as Carnalitas Slavery Expansion you can also assign them "professions" for additional benefits. However, these are also human-only, the AI never assigns them. All of this undermines the realism and immersion, and makes the game both a lot easier and less interesting than it could be.

This mod introduces a redesigned slavery system, one aiming to better integrate slavery with other aspects of the game, make interacting with slaves and other rulers more interesting and rewarding, achieve a better game balance, enable more roleplaying options, and maintain a reasonable challenge for the player. It does this by reworking most of the slavery interactions, introducing some new ones, making slaves more desirable for council and court positions, adding slavery attitudes and slave-related events, and rebalancing or fixing many of the original effects and outcomes, while still maintaining compatibility with other Carnalitas features and other mods based on Carnalitas.

With this mod:

• The AI competes actively in obtaining and keeping the best slaves, and evaluates them better taking into account their skills, aptitudes, claims, attraction, age, price, current jobs and more when buying, selling, enslaving or freeing.
• Slave prices better reflect the actual usefulness of slaves.
• Slaves can be also ransomed, gifted, or liberated, and the AI will occasionally do it as well.
• It's much easier to find rulers willing to buy, sell, or ransom slaves via special convenience interactions.
• Slavery doctrines have a significant and consistent impact that better reflects their original meaning.
• Slaves can be assigned to (some, but not all) council and court positions for additional benefits, and the AI is fully capable of doing this as well. There are also new court positions reserved for slaves or former slaves, such as Slave Concubine, Slave Eunuch or Mameluke Captain, available depending on religion, culture, and government form.
• You can choose a slavery attitude, one of Slaver, Liberator, Slave Trader, or Slave Employer to get a minor modifier and a unique slavery-related perk. This unlocks additional roleplaying options for players and results in actual "human trafficking" when used by the AI.
• Additional slaves fit for specific occupations are spawned into the world via events. Useful characters are more likely to be captured (and then enslaved) instead of killed during raids and sieges.
• There are slavery-related flavor events, such as a slave running away, demands for a slave's freedom, etc. There are also hidden events for AI rulers to interact with their slaves in ways that were previously only available to the player, e.g. have sex with them.
• There are fame traits that add roleplaying flavor, such as the negative Infamous Slaver trait and the positive Famous Liberator trait.

All taken together, slaves are now genuinely useful to their owners, there is an actual demand for them conditioned by religion and culture, and this demand is satisfied by warfare, raiding, slave trade, and slave-related events. As a player, you can choose between many different ways to interact with the system to either roleplay or use it to your advantage, and it's more challenging and hopefully more interesting to do this.

Compatibility

This mod requires Carnalitas as a prerequisite (obviously). While it modifies the slavery system in a substantial way, it doesn't touch other Carnalitas features and should be compatible with all of them.

This mod also supports changing its game rules mid-game with the Gamerule Gadget mod.

Compatibility with Mods Based on Carnalitas

This mod should be compatible with all mods based on Carnalitas that don't modify the slavery system. Compatibility with the following mods has been explicitly verified, but most others should work as well:

• Character Body Overhaul
• Physical Attributes

This mod may not be compatible with all other mods that modify the slavery system. However, it should still be compatible with mods that don't change the original Carnalitas slavery interactions, modifiers, or effects. Compatibility with the following mods has been explicitly verified:

• Carnalitas Slavery Expansion.

Compatibility with Total Conversion Mods

Due to its changes to vanilla files, this mod may conflict with changes done by total conversion mods. This is also true for Carnalitas itself. For best experience, such mods require compatibility patches for both Carnalitas and CSR.

CSR is now fully compatible with A Game of Thrones with Carnalitas AGOT Compatibility and a CSR AGOT compatibility patch available as a separate download.

If you still want to try using CSR with a different conversion mod, be prepared that some features might be broken. To make the best of it, follow these recommendations:

• Load Carnalitas and CSR before the total conversion mod. They overwrite a few vanilla files entirely, and if there are conflicts you would rather want the conversion mod overwrites, not the Carnalitas / CSR ones. Note that they also overwrite some specific vanilla objects, and will always do so, no matter the order.
• Change the Universe CSR game rule to Fantasy. This avoids errors for historical religions, cultures, and titles that may have been removed by the conversion mod. Note that there may still be errors for other removed vanilla objects that can't be clearly identified as "historical".

Localization

This mod is currently available in English, Russian (translated by @Undertalk), Chinese (translated by @Dark_Crow), and French (translated by @don-vip).

Links

• GitHub Repository

If you like this mod, you may also consider my other mods:

• Carnalitas Love Reimagined, a rework of the Carnalitas Make Love interaction and its related effects.
• Search & Trade Artifacts, search for artifacts, buy them from other characters, and sell them to other characters.
• Travelers, characters always travel to their home when it changes instead of teleporting.
• Active Courtiers, courtiers search for spouses themselves for less micromanagement, stronger AI, and immersion.

For detailed information on all features and changes, see the full README. For more information on the CSR AGOT compatibility mod, see its README.

---

• Submitter
  pharaox
• Submitted
  01/29/2023
• Category
  Crusader Kings 3
• Requires
  Carnalitas

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by pharaox

[ptp190]

Awe it's not compatible with slavery expansion. I'm looking at the features and like them but it would be nice if they paired together. I'll give your mod a try. And give you feedback. The slave trade is essential to my play style (barbary pirates). So hopefully with your mod I can actually get the "trade aspect going.) 

[ptp190]

I do want to ask do you have any goals or plans to "Slave breeding and work detail." Slavery expansion solves this well with forced labor, slave soldiers, and prostitutes. If you mod does something similar or finds a way to join the two I'd say this is a win win for the community. Since the Slavery expansion is the breeding/work system. Yours is more trade and interactions according to what I'm reading respectfully. 

[pharaox]

3 hours ago, ptp190 said:

I do want to ask do you have any goals or plans to "Slave breeding and work detail." Slavery expansion solves this well with forced labor, slave soldiers, and prostitutes. If you mod does something similar or finds a way to join the two I'd say this is a win win for the community. Since the Slavery expansion is the breeding/work system. Yours is more trade and interactions according to what I'm reading respectfully. 

 

I am afraid I don't have any such plans at the moment. I will however take a closer look at the compatibility with the slavery expansion mod. My problem is that I don't really like the ideas of this mod and will probably not use it in my own gameplay. From its description it seems it goes rather in the opposite direction than what I am trying to achieve (less balance and more options for the human player to exploit the system). But I may be wrong, so let me give it a try.

 

3 hours ago, ptp190 said:

Awe it's not compatible with slavery expansion. I'm looking at the features and like them but it would be nice if they paired together. I'll give your mod a try. And give you feedback. The slave trade is essential to my play style (barbary pirates). So hopefully with your mod I can actually get the "trade aspect going.) 

 

Thanks, I will certainly appreciate feedback!

[ptp190]

3 hours ago, pharaox said:

 

I am afraid I don't have any such plans at the moment. I will however take a closer look at the compatibility with the slavery expansion mod. My problem is that I don't really like the ideas of this mod and will probably not use it in my own gameplay. From its description it seems it goes rather in the opposite direction than what I am trying to achieve (less balance and more options for the human player to exploit the system). But I may be wrong, so let me give it a try.

 

 

Thanks, I will certainly appreciate feedback!

You totally be getting feedback. Right now I'm liking the movement of slaves if that makes sense. But I think the issue is then mostly being somewhat Ai generated? Like when you get two which is fine do they keep on living after a player says no or do they die? That was one thing I'm the early slave mods where you'd have too many. The expansion mod semi resolved this since it revolved around the idea of players generating their own through a breeding process. Another modder created a "breeder mod" which was a buff to the already expansive mod. What it helped do was facilitate the production of more skilled slaves the player produced and could educate. What your mod solves is what to do when a player has too many. The expansion caps how many slaves one can have as slave soldiers, prostitutes, sex slaves and forced laborers balancing this with a cost factor of gold maintenance. If there's a way to make both mods works it would complement both since it would essentially complete them. Yours having a trade system where the expansion has professions and balance to an extent. It negates ever having knights or champions outside slaves. Which is fine. It also allows for filling court positions with slaves. The downside is they hate you, each other and end up killing each other frequently which once again balances out the system using ingame content. The player can manipulate the mod files themselves in order to increase size of these professions limitations so instead of 10 forced laborers, they can increase it to 50 or 100 respectively. Which is great because for me that's what simulated a slave income outside of raiding. Which itself needs to be fixed since when you raid you don't capture slaves at all. You'll get one person rarely. If your mod changes this, it too will make things better and make raiding for slaves a viable option as well. It's the joys of both mods I see that truly complement each other but don't work with each other yet. Hopefully, they will someday

[pharaox]

18 hours ago, ptp190 said:

Like when you get two which is fine do they keep on living after a player says no or do they die?

 

They die. Only those that the player (or AI) pay for survive. The AI does this only rarely, so this currently adds about 10-15 new characters per year in total (in the vanilla game where initially there are about 28k characters)

 

18 hours ago, ptp190 said:

... when you raid you don't capture slaves at all. You'll get one person rarely. If your mod changes this, it too will make things better and make raiding for slaves a viable option as well.

 

Not yet, though I have thought about it. So far I only added an effect (carnx_capture_potential_slaves_effect) that could be added to specific casus belli objects (or potentially also to the raid mechanic) to capture people that are "marked for enslavement" via a modifier, so the AI would also know what to do with them. I am still testing this and haven't integrated it with anything else. I am a bit wary of making it too easy to enslave too many people without balancing this with some negative consequences.

Edited January 30, 2023 by pharaox

[ptp190]

44 minutes ago, pharaox said:

 

They die. Only those that the player (or AI) pay for survive. The AI does this only rarely, so this currently adds about 10-15 new characters per year in total (in the vanilla game where initially there are about 28k characters)

 

 

Not yet, though I have thought about it. So far I only added an effect (carnx_capture_potential_slaves_effect) that could be added to specific casus belli objects (or potentially also to the raid mechanic) to capture people that are "marked for enslavement" via a modifier, so the AI would also know what to do with them. I am still testing this and haven't integrated it with anything else. I am a bit wary of making it too easy to enslave too many people without balancing this with some negative consequences.

And that's perfectly fine. A thing I noticed with my games was that many people when using the expansion mod, tended to die of diseases more often or injury. I'm not sure if that was part of the mod authors intentions or if it was the game itself when a player had too many courtiers. I noticed this during more recent vanilla game updates. With yours currently I have no issues. It's nice to see money come in. However, I do miss the aspect of breeding, educating and giving slaves court positions or knight positions. The trading aspect is sound. Truth be told play with other slave based mods I basically turned ck3 into a slave farming game. But doing so in order to mix races and draw out whatever I came up with. 

[pharaox]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:04 PM, ptp190 said:

However, I do miss the aspect of breeding, educating and giving slaves court positions or knight positions.

What stops you form doing all these things? Slaves are regular courtiers and so they can have children (and often do), can educate or be educated, can hold councilor or court positions, or serve as knights - of course, provided that they meet the faith restrictions that apply to other people as well. In my games, I see the also AI actually employ slaves in various occupations all the time, especially the more skilled ones.

[ptp190]

57 minutes ago, pharaox said:

What stops you form doing all these things? Slaves are regular courtiers and so they can have children (and often do), can educate or be educated, can hold councilor or court positions, or serve as knights - of course, provided that they meet the faith restrictions that apply to other people as well. In my games, I see the also AI actually employ slaves in various occupations all the time, especially the more skilled ones.

Nothing but it's mainly towards the other professions within the other mod. I haven't had any issues yet save for the breeding one. Like I miss personally having that option especially when it came to getting more desirable traits or particular looking people's into an area. Funny note, I repopulated all of the African continent as Ginger people once before. I forget what gene it was irl but it was like red hair and freckles. Basically everyone looked simar to the current live action little mermaid ??. But yeah over all really liking the mod just wish more stuff was in it. But it'll come along. Be nice to have gladiators and what not. That's something that was missing in the other mod. Like gladiators and gladiator based events. Miss that about ck2. 

[joemann]

I will also try this mod. I like the approach. Are you thinking of adding some graphical items. I am thinking of a slave collar or a brand? I have tried creating stuff like this myself but I dismally fail when I try and use blender.

[pharaox]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:46 PM, ptp190 said:

Nothing but it's mainly towards the other professions within the other mod

 

I verified the compatibility with Carnalitas Slavery Expansion and actually it seems they are already fully compatible, you could try them out together. I updated the description accordingly. Also I just uploaded a new version with some minor changes.

[pharaox]

2 hours ago, joemann said:

I will also try this mod. I like the approach. Are you thinking of adding some graphical items. I am thinking of a slave collar or a brand? I have tried creating stuff like this myself but I dismally fail when I try and use blender.

 

Thanks! I am afraid I am not much of a graphics person myself. I will stick to the game mechanics for the time being, Carnalitas and other mods already have some good graphics I think.

[SGTHatred]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:51 PM, pharaox said:

All in all, AI is in general quite reluctant to buy slaves that are useless, or sell slaves that are useful to them. As a human player, you may find it impossible to find buyers for your slaves unless they have some of the useful qualities listed above. So instead of enslaving just about everybody you come across, you may want to consider whether you would be able to sell them first.

This is a mistake. If an individual has their faculties then they can be put to work. If they can be put to work then they are useful.  Even if the price is low, someone should still be willing to buy able bodied slave laborers. 

 

On 1/29/2023 at 12:51 PM, pharaox said:

Unlike Carnalitas, a person can only be enslaved if he or she is a prisoner. The Enslave interaction is not available on free courtiers. Since a prisoner doesn't really have a choice, both Enslave and Seize Slave interactions are accepted automatically.

People throughout history voluntarily sold themselves into slavery to settle debt. Maybe this could be integrated somehow?

 

 

On 1/29/2023 at 12:51 PM, pharaox said:

Compatibility

This mod requires Carnalitas as a prerequisite (obviously). While it modifies the slavery system in a substantial way, it doesn't touch other Carnalitas features and should be compatible with all of them. It is also compatible with other popular mods based on Carnalitas that don't modify the slavery system, such as CBO, CBO Carnal Court, Physical Attributes, etc. It is not compatible with mods that modify the slavery system, such as Carnalitas Slavery Expansion.

This mod is NOT compatible with the Slavery System: Consensual Only Carnalitas game rule (carn_slavery_content_consensual_only).

 

I'm currently running this mod with elder kings 2. It seems to be working but I have run into one major issue. It keeps telling me that npc lords can not afford to buy slaves because they do not have the money when they have plenty of coin in their inventory. As of now, nobody ever wants to buy my slaves. This might be a problem with ek2 since it messes with the vanilla currency. I will try the mod alone with carnalities and slavery expansion only to see if I have the same problem and let you know. 

 

It is nice to finally see npc lords snatching up slaves left and right. Prior to this mod my pc was the only slaver in town. Now they are all over the place and their status actually makes sense. Thank you for that. Hopefully you can/will further integrate this mod with slavery expansion so that lords will start assigning their slaves as soldiers, laborers, prostitutes, or harem slaves based on their stats, attraction, traits, etc. 

 

It would also be interesting to see zealous lords forcibly convert their slaves. 

 

Another issue I noticed was that slave memories was not always working. Some slaves have it in their memories while some are still blank. I will check this out when I try the vanilla game to see if it is EK2 related. 

 

I had no problem selling enslaved children before. Now, their own parents wont even offer a single coin for them. People should be willing to buy their kids back. I understand that the whole child slavery thing is a bit unsavory but they were a valuable commodity in the past for a lot of obvious reasons. They could learn languages and other skills much faster than adults, they were less likely to rebel or run away and so on. I think it is odd that if I enslave the children of my enemies that absolutely nobody on the map is interested in buying them.  They have a potential lifetime of devoted service to offer. That should be worth something to the AI.

 

I am not sure I like the fact that unfaithful spouses are getting executed instead of enslaved. Before I could just buy my adulterous dynasty members from their spouses and then set them free. Now that they get executed instead of being enslaved, I feel compelled to arrest, torture, sometimes rape, and then execute the lords that execute them. It would be great if the AI learned from that but it does not have that capacity. Perhaps an NPC lord that is intimidated by or terrified of the PC might opt to enslave the PC's dynasty members instead of executing them. Just an idea. 

 

All in all I really like this mod. The convenience of the new buy/sell system and the proliferation of slave ownership by npc lords is a great addition to the game. I hope you keep working at it and keep it up to date. Thanks you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gerfeniks]

Lol, this mod just adds another way to break vanilla economy and if it's not compatible with Carnalitas Slavery Expansion which has birth control system and gender focus it goes to the trashdump =/

Edited February 5, 2023 by Gerfeniks

[pharaox]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

This is a mistake. If an individual has their faculties then they can be put to work. If they can be put to work then they are useful.  Even if the price is low, someone should still be willing to buy able bodied slave laborers.

 

Perhaps in general, but I am looking at it strictly in game terms. The AI decision to buy or sell slaves should be motivated by reasons that fit well

with the rest of the game. A "useless" person in game terms is not worth spending money for. A useful person on the other hand is worth spending more than they cost in Carnalitas. The details of how much exactly and why are not yet final, I am still tweaking this and I am certainly interested in your feedback.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

People throughout history voluntarily sold themselves into slavery to settle debt. Maybe this could be integrated somehow?

 

This seems like an interesting event idea, thanks for the hint, I'll think about it. But I believe "voluntarily" is rather incorrect, in most cases they didn't have much choice and were either forced or at least coerced into slavery.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

It keeps telling me that npc lords can not afford to buy slaves because they do not have the money when they have plenty of coin in their inventory.

 

Interesting. The condition actually check whether their "short term gold" is greater than "medium gold value". A similar condition is checked in many other places in the vanilla game before the AI decides to spend money, and I think it makes sense. A "short term gold" is a portion of the AI's budget for short term expenses (ransoms, gifts, purchases, etc.), and "medium gold value" is the half-year income, but min 50. So it's possible and expected that in certain situations the AI has enough money but still refuses to buy because it prioritizes other things. I should probably add a description to the modifier to explain this better.

 

I certainly don't see this as a problem in my games though, quite the contrary, I see a lively trade going on between AI rulers (lots of "Slave bought" messages in debug.log) and most of the time they have enough "short term gold" for my slaves as well. Not sure if this has anything to do with EK2, I haven't tried this mod myself yet.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

Hopefully you can/will further integrate this mod with slavery expansion so that lords will start assigning their slaves as soldiers, laborers, prostitutes, or harem slaves based on their stats, attraction, traits, etc.

 

Sorry, you should ask the authors of the slavery expansion mod for that, they own these interactions and only they could enable the AI to use them, I can't do this in my mod.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

It would also be interesting to see zealous lords forcibly convert their slaves. 

 

In fact, vanilla rulers, zealous or not, convert their courtiers (and also slaves) all the time. With historical slavery doctrines in the vanilla game where owning slaves of your own faith is a crime, this means that most slaves get freed usually in 5 to 10 years. I actually "fixed" this by making the AI less likely to convert slaves (the only vanilla change I did in the mod). I could probably introduce a game rule for that since I can see why some people may prefer it the other way.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

Another issue I noticed was that slave memories was not always working. Some slaves have it in their memories while some are still blank.

 

Memories "fade with time". In practice this means that some memories disappear rather quickly, while others last, sometimes seemingly at random.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

I had no problem selling enslaved children before. Now, their own parents wont even offer a single coin for them. People should be willing to buy their kids back.

 

No, they should be willing to "ransom" them. Not "buy" because the AI could be rather slow to free them and you would keep seeing

people being owned by their relatives. But ransoming is possible, have you tried "Ransom Slave" on a parent, relative, kinsman, friend, or lover?

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

I think it is odd that if I enslave the children of my enemies that absolutely nobody on the map is interested in buying them.

 

Again in game terms, a child is a big unknown. Unless they have a great genetic trait, you have no idea how they would turn, so the AI reluctance to buy them makes sense. However, it still makes a lot of sense to own, even buy children. You could give them the best education you can afford, and once they turn 16 try selling them again. This doesn't always work of course, since you don't fully control their skills on adulthood.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

I am not sure I like the fact that unfaithful spouses are getting executed instead of enslaved. Before I could just buy my adulterous dynasty members from their spouses and then set them free. Now that they get executed instead of being enslaved,

 

"Before" for you is before my mod. "Before" for me is before Carnalitas. From my perspective Carnalitas broke the vanilla game here rather badly. I am trying to find a middle ground, if the AI is determined to execute let them do it, but if they didn't do it in 2 years then perhaps it's ok to enslave.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:48 PM, SGTHatred said:

All in all I really like this mod. The convenience of the new buy/sell system and the proliferation of slave ownership by npc lords is a great addition to the game. I hope you keep working at it and keep it up to date. Thanks you.

 

Thank you too for the great feedback! I really appreciate it even if I don't agree with some of the points. Will think about your suggestions.

[pharaox]

21 hours ago, Gerfeniks said:

Lol, this mod just adds another way to break vanilla economy and if it's not compatible with Carnalitas Slavery Expansion which has birth control system and gender focus it goes to the trashdump =/

 

My intention is certainly not to "break the vanilla economy", quite the contrary. Have you tried it, do you have concrete feedback how exactly it breaks something? I could improve the balance further if I get more concrete feedback.

 

I verified that the mod is fully compatible with Carnalitas Slavery Expansion and posted an update 2 days ago. Forgot to update this forum topic though, so did it now.

[SGTHatred]

24 minutes ago, pharaox said:

Perhaps in general, but I am looking at it strictly in game terms. The AI decision to buy or sell slaves should be motivated by reasons that fit well

with the rest of the game. A "useless" person in game terms is not worth spending money for. A useful person on the other hand is worth spending more than they cost in Carnalitas. The details of how much exactly and why are not yet final, I am still tweaking this and I am certainly interested in your feedback.

I already found a work around. I simply use a valuable slave to bring up potential buyers, select them and then swap out the valuable slave for the worthless one. The AI does not pay much but will always buy. Labor slaves in slavery expanded are worth a few gold. 

 

26 minutes ago, pharaox said:

This seems like an interesting event idea, thanks for the hint, I'll think about it. But I believe "voluntarily" is rather incorrect, in most cases they didn't have much choice and were either forced or at least coerced into slavery.

I think a diplomacy or intimidation challenge to convince debtors would be fun. A prowess challenge to forcibly enslave characters could also work.

 

27 minutes ago, pharaox said:

Interesting. The condition actually check whether their "short term gold" is greater than "medium gold value". A similar condition is checked in many other places in the vanilla game before the AI decides to spend money, and I think it makes sense. A "short term gold" is a portion of the AI's budget for short term expenses (ransoms, gifts, purchases, etc.), and "medium gold value" is the half-year income, but min 50. So it's possible and expected that in certain situations the AI has enough money but still refuses to buy because it prioritizes other things. I should probably add a description to the modifier to explain this better.

 

I certainly don't see this as a problem in my games though, quite the contrary, I see a lively trade going on between AI rulers (lots of "Slave bought" messages in debug.log) and most of the time they have enough "short term gold" for my slaves as well. Not sure if this has anything to do with EK2, I haven't tried this mod myself yet.

 

I started a clean save with a new lord and this issue has not come up since. With my old save as High King 200 years in there is an issue. I will see about loading, replicating and taking a screen shot in the future. I'll try to do the same for any other issues I come across. 

 

29 minutes ago, pharaox said:

In fact, vanilla rulers, zealous or not, convert their courtiers (and also slaves) all the time. With historical slavery doctrines in the vanilla game where owning slaves of your own faith is a crime, this means that most slaves get freed usually in 5 to 10 years. I actually "fixed" this by making the AI less likely to convert slaves (the only vanilla change I did in the mod). I could probably introduce a game rule for that since I can see why some people may prefer it the other way.

I just noticed that my enslaved grandson has been converted to the faith of their owner. 

 

32 minutes ago, pharaox said:

"Before" for you is before my mod. "Before" for me is before Carnalitas. From my perspective Carnalitas broke the vanilla game here rather badly. I am trying to find a middle ground, if the AI is determined to execute let them do it, but if they didn't do it in 2 years then perhaps it's ok to enslave.

If you were terrified of someone, would you execute their family members? I also think the AI should take into account that UNLAWFULLY executing an unfaithful spouse will give their max dread torturer murderer emperor liege a valid imprisonment/ title revocation/ imprisonment reason. Do they already take that into account? Are alliances factored in? Breaking a powerful alliance or an alliance with your liege that protects you from things like title revocation should definitely factor into the AI decision to execute. I could understand if the NPC lord has the inbred, lunatic, or stupidity trait that they would probably go all King Jeoffrey on their spouse regardless of consequences but reasonable lords would probably show more restraint.  

 

37 minutes ago, pharaox said:

Thank you too for the great feedback! I really appreciate it even if I don't agree with some of the points. Will think about your suggestions.

I think most of my issues with the mod revolved around the fact that I could no longer get rid of low value slaves. Now that I found a bait and switch work around it does not matter. Other issues are with slavery expansion and not your mod.

 

I am curious as to why I can not buy my grandson from a petty lord that inherited him from the lord I murdered for enslaving him and refusing to sell him. He does have some great traits but the AI isn't even using him for anything.  With carnalities I could always buy back my dynasty members. Having to constantly raid and attempt abduction schemes to get him back is a real pain in the ass. If the petty lord was my rival or my grandson's lover then the immersion would be epic level but I am pretty sure they are just unwilling to sell me any of their slaves because reasons. I will try to save up a lot more gold and see if that is the determining factor.

 

I would like to thank you for solving the slave wandering issue. I am 100 years in and not a single slave has left my court on their own to return to their normal liege. This happened all the time before running your mod. I also noticed that I can not simply invite an npc lord's slave to my court to imprison and seize them. It makes a lot more sense for them to be bound to their owner's court. I'm not sure how you fixed that or if you even intended to but thanks.  

 

Speaking of wandering slaves, if you are taking suggestions then maybe some runaway slave events could be interesting. They could be challenges based on your own traits like hunter or your master of the hunt's aptitude if you are running royal court. That would be fun. 

 

I love the travelling slave dealer event. It adds a lot of quality genetic traits to the game world. 

 

Thanks again for the mod.

 

 

 

 

 

[pharaox]

18 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

I already found a work around. I simply use a valuable slave to bring up potential buyers, select them and then swap out the valuable slave for the worthless one.

 

Wow, you found a major bug, thanks! Let me see if I can fix it in the next version. Honestly, one of the main ideas of the mod is not to be able to sell your useless slaves, but instead to become creative in procuring useful ones that people actually want to buy.

 

Regarding what you could do with slaves nobody wants to buy:

* Ransom them with their relatives for their normal ransom cost.
* Gift them to other rulers for a modest opinion gain (not currently possible but I plan to include it in the next version)

* Free them and offer them as concubines to other rulers.

* Free them and marry them off to attract useful people to your court (knights, physicians, antiquarians, etc.).

* Free them out of the goodness of your heart and let them go.

* Keep them because they have something else you enjoy (e.g. voluptuous, exotic race, etc.)
 

I am thinking of also other ways a slave could be useful to AI in vanilla or Carnalitas terms (not slavery expansion). Perhaps if a slave could serve as a prostitute this could boost the AI willingness to buy, but only if the AI could actually benefit from that, which unfortunately is not the case at the moment.

 

19 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

A prowess challenge to forcibly enslave characters could also work.

 

You already have something similar, it's called "Imprison". It's essentially a diplomacy + intrigue challenge against unsuspecting innocent people. So if you want to enslave innocent people you can already do that, for a well-deserved tyranny gain. I am not sure if it makes sense to introduce an entirely new mechanic just for enslave, imprison + enslave works just as well.

 

19 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

If you were terrified of someone, would you execute their family members?

 

Perhaps not, but I am not sure how practical it would be to make the AI do such a check. Besides, it's a vanilla mechanic and so far I am inclined to change such mechanics only if absolutely needed, since they are rather well balanced most of the time and I could easily do more harm that good.

 

Regarding all the other things you mention, no, the AI is mostly not able to properly take such things into account, but neither would it be easy to make them do it. It's just one of the many areas where the AI is "dumb", I am afraid we can't do much about it, and I don't see how enslaving instead of executing would make any difference.

 

19 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

I am curious as to why I can not buy my grandson from a petty lord that inherited him from the lord I murdered for enslaving him and refusing to sell him

 

What do the modifiers when you point at "Will Not Accept" say?

 

19 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

I'm not sure how you fixed that or if you even intended to but thanks.

 

No, it was not intended, and I am really glad it works like this, thanks for letting me know! I simply listen for the "on_leave_court" event and if I detect a slave that somehow escaped their owner's court, and their owner does have a court, I put them back in. If their owner doesn't have a court (not a ruler any more), I free them.

 

19 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

Speaking of wandering slaves, if you are taking suggestions then maybe some runaway slave events could be interesting.

 

Absolutely. A runaway slave is a great event idea, thanks! Perhaps even a slave riot of sort if you have a number of armed slaves (e.g. knights). If you have more ideas how to make owning slaves have some drawbacks, please share them.

 

19 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

I love the travelling slave dealer event. It adds a lot of quality genetic traits to the game world. 

 

Thanks, I rather like it too. I almost always buy, sometimes just for the fun of it.

[ptp190]

5 hours ago, pharaox said:

 

Wow, you found a major bug, thanks! Let me see if I can fix it in the next version. Honestly, one of the main ideas of the mod is not to be able to sell your useless slaves, but instead to become creative in procuring useful ones that people actually want to buy.

 

Regarding what you could do with slaves nobody wants to buy:

* Ransom them with their relatives for their normal ransom cost.
* Gift them to other rulers for a modest opinion gain (not currently possible but I plan to include it in the next version)

* Free them and offer them as concubines to other rulers.

* Free them and marry them off to attract useful people to your court (knights, physicians, antiquarians, etc.).

* Free them out of the goodness of your heart and let them go.

* Keep them because they have something else you enjoy (e.g. voluptuous, exotic race, etc.)
 

I am thinking of also other ways a slave could be useful to AI in vanilla or Carnalitas terms (not slavery expansion). Perhaps if a slave could serve as a prostitute this could boost the AI willingness to buy, but only if the AI could actually benefit from that, which unfortunately is not the case at the moment.

 

 

You already have something similar, it's called "Imprison". It's essentially a diplomacy + intrigue challenge against unsuspecting innocent people. So if you want to enslave innocent people you can already do that, for a well-deserved tyranny gain. I am not sure if it makes sense to introduce an entirely new mechanic just for enslave, imprison + enslave works just as well.

 

 

Perhaps not, but I am not sure how practical it would be to make the AI do such a check. Besides, it's a vanilla mechanic and so far I am inclined to change such mechanics only if absolutely needed, since they are rather well balanced most of the time and I could easily do more harm that good.

 

Regarding all the other things you mention, no, the AI is mostly not able to properly take such things into account, but neither would it be easy to make them do it. It's just one of the many areas where the AI is "dumb", I am afraid we can't do much about it, and I don't see how enslaving instead of executing would make any difference.

 

 

What do the modifiers when you point at "Will Not Accept" say?

 

 

No, it was not intended, and I am really glad it works like this, thanks for letting me know! I simply listen for the "on_leave_court" event and if I detect a slave that somehow escaped their owner's court, and their owner does have a court, I put them back in. If their owner doesn't have a court (not a ruler any more), I free them.

 

 

Absolutely. A runaway slave is a great event idea, thanks! Perhaps even a slave riot of sort if you have a number of armed slaves (e.g. knights). If you have more ideas how to make owning slaves have some drawbacks, please share them.

 

 

Thanks, I rather like it too. I almost always buy, sometimes just for the fun of it.

Agreed. It's like playing dawn of man and the trader comes. 

[SGTHatred]

23 hours ago, pharaox said:

Wow, you found a major bug, thanks! Let me see if I can fix it in the next version. Honestly, one of the main ideas of the mod is not to be able to sell your useless slaves, but instead to become creative in procuring useful ones that people actually want to buy.

 

Regarding what you could do with slaves nobody wants to buy:

* Ransom them with their relatives for their normal ransom cost.
* Gift them to other rulers for a modest opinion gain (not currently possible but I plan to include it in the next version)

* Free them and offer them as concubines to other rulers.

* Free them and marry them off to attract useful people to your court (knights, physicians, antiquarians, etc.).

* Free them out of the goodness of your heart and let them go.

* Keep them because they have something else you enjoy (e.g. voluptuous, exotic race, etc.)
 

I am thinking of also other ways a slave could be useful to AI in vanilla or Carnalitas terms (not slavery expansion). Perhaps if a slave could serve as a prostitute this could boost the AI willingness to buy, but only if the AI could actually benefit from that, which unfortunately is not the case at the moment.

 

It's cool. I downloaded another mod that lets me kill them outright with a "murder slave" option. Making them worthless is a mistake. Most families so far have refused to ransom. Even when it is for a favor they almost always decline. The gift Idea would be great. I was going to recommend it. I can't tell you how many times I have thought about how useful that option would be. Free them? No. They are all relatively useful to me because I am using slavery expansion but I would like the option to just sell them for cheap. 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, pharaox said:

You already have something similar, it's called "Imprison". It's essentially a diplomacy + intrigue challenge against unsuspecting innocent people. So if you want to enslave innocent people you can already do that, for a well-deserved tyranny gain. I am not sure if it makes sense to introduce an entirely new mechanic just for enslave, imprison + enslave works just as well.

 

What about a "duel for slave" prowess challenge against other owners? That could be fun.

 

23 hours ago, pharaox said:

Perhaps not, but I am not sure how practical it would be to make the AI do such a check. Besides, it's a vanilla mechanic and so far I am inclined to change such mechanics only if absolutely needed, since they are rather well balanced most of the time and I could easily do more harm that good.

 

Regarding all the other things you mention, no, the AI is mostly not able to properly take such things into account, but neither would it be easy to make them do it. It's just one of the many areas where the AI is "dumb", I am afraid we can't do much about it, and I don't see how enslaving instead of executing would make any difference.

 

I don't think "going back to vanilla" is something I am interested in. Openly murdering a pc's family member is a direct action against them. A "smart" AI would divorce and ransom rather than commit suicide.

 

23 hours ago, pharaox said:

I am curious as to why I can not buy my grandson from a petty lord that inherited him from the lord I murdered for enslaving him and refusing to sell him

I can't even get that far. The "buy slave" option does not even exist. Maybe it is a conflict with expansion or dominatio. 

 

On 2/6/2023 at 2:28 PM, pharaox said:

No, it was not intended, and I am really glad it works like this, thanks for letting me know! I simply listen for the "on_leave_court" event and if I detect a slave that somehow escaped their owner's court, and their owner does have a court, I put them back in. If their owner doesn't have a court (not a ruler any more), I free them.

Shouldn't they be seized or inherited instead?

 

On 2/6/2023 at 2:28 PM, pharaox said:

Absolutely. A runaway slave is a great event idea, thanks! Perhaps even a slave riot of sort if you have a number of armed slaves (e.g. knights). If you have more ideas how to make owning slaves have some drawbacks, please share them.

 

I think vanilla had something similar with northern lords. I remember a runaway thrall event triggering that did not actually involve an npc. It was just a simple challenge - reward event.

 

 

Suggestions: Dominatio seems to be a dead mod but it still works surprisingly well even with EK2. One of its features is the addition of a unique building line. It is a brothel that is somewhat pointless but it serves as a proof of concept. It shows how a triggered event can result in a unique mod related building line. I would think a slave market or auction house with mod related benefits would be more practical and immersive. I've seen how triggered events can result in building lines being constructed but can it work the other way around? Can a building line be used as a trigger for recurring events or act as a requirement for recurring decisions? From what I can tell they can not but I am having trouble finding verification. 

[pharaox]

1 hour ago, SGTHatred said:

I downloaded another mod that lets me kill them outright with a "murder slave" option

 

Which mod? Outright murder is not to my taste. However, I am thinking of adding "free imprison" (no tyranny for imprisoning slaves) and then you could execute, torture, etc., with or without penalties depending on faith.

 

1 hour ago, SGTHatred said:

Most families so far have refused to ransom. Even when it is for a favor they almost always decline.

 

I will double check the AI willingness to ransom then, it probably needs some rebalancing. My intention was for ransoming to be possible, unless they really hate both you and their enslaved relative.

 

1 hour ago, SGTHatred said:

They are all relatively useful to me because I am using slavery expansion but I would like the option to just sell them for cheap.

 

The problem is, even if you are using slavery expansion to get advantages out of your slaves, the AI is not, so they can't realistically want to buy every slave you offer them. The entire slavery expansion mod is practically human-only - lots of advantages for the human player, nothing for the poor AI. And it's not like the human player is not super overpowered already, as sadly the situation is the same with other mods (e.g. Carnalitas), and also with some of the vanilla interactions ("Invite to Court" comes to mind). Instead of mods that further boost the human player, this game badly needs a "stronger AI" mod. But since this is rather difficult to do properly, the least I could do is make sure the AI doesn't spend their precious gold on useless stuff.

 

Anyway, I see your point, perhaps I could boost the willingness to buy (and sell) a bit, within certain limits. I have the following ideas so far:

* Enable spending of hooks for selling / buying slaves. If you have a hook on the buyer and spend it, they will always buy, within their available budget.

* Add "sell at half price / buy at double price" (or similar) options that add a (small, but sometimes decisive) boost to AI willingness, but only for slaves that are considered by the AI at least marginally useful (if they are buying).

 

1 hour ago, SGTHatred said:

I can't even get that far. The "buy slave" option does not even exist.

 

OK, I think I know the reason. The interaction is only enabled on "close" rulers (vassals in your realms or neighboring rulers, including across water). This is done for performance reasons, and to make sure the AI and the human player get similar opportunities. So the lord in question is most likely not your neighbor. If they somehow become one the interaction should appear.

 

1 hour ago, SGTHatred said:

Shouldn't they be seized or inherited instead?

 

By whom? At the point of time the situation is detected, I don't think it's even possible to check what exactly happened to their owner so that they lost their titles, or even what these titles even were. Did they lose a war, or were they captured and enslaved themselves? In both cases, could another person claim ownership of their slaves? After all, slaves are bound to a person, not to a title. It's all too complicated, so I am afraid we should leave those slaves enjoy their unexpected luck.

 

1 hour ago, SGTHatred said:

I think vanilla had something similar with northern lords

 

Thanks, will double check this. Thanks for all your other suggestions as well!

 

[SGTHatred]

On 2/7/2023 at 4:29 PM, pharaox said:

 

Which mod? Outright murder is not to my taste. However, I am thinking of adding "free imprison" (no tyranny for imprisoning slaves) and then you could execute, torture, etc., with or without penalties depending on faith.

 

Dominatio: Like I said, it is dead but still works surprisingly well. It would be hard to find historical examples of slave owners not having the legal right to kill their slaves. It is not tasteful at all. It just is. 

 

On 2/7/2023 at 4:29 PM, pharaox said:

The problem is, even if you are using slavery expansion to get advantages out of your slaves, the AI is not, so they can't realistically want to buy every slave you offer them. The entire slavery expansion mod is practically human-only - lots of advantages for the human player, nothing for the poor AI. And it's not like the human player is not super overpowered already, as sadly the situation is the same with other mods (e.g. Carnalitas), and also with some of the vanilla interactions ("Invite to Court" comes to mind). Instead of mods that further boost the human player, this game badly needs a "stronger AI" mod. But since this is rather difficult to do properly, the least I could do is make sure the AI doesn't spend their precious gold on useless stuff.

 

Anyway, I see your point, perhaps I could boost the willingness to buy (and sell) a bit, within certain limits. I have the following ideas so far:

* Enable spending of hooks for selling / buying slaves. If you have a hook on the buyer and spend it, they will always buy, within their available budget.

* Add "sell at half price / buy at double price" (or similar) options that add a (small, but sometimes decisive) boost to AI willingness, but only for slaves that are considered by the AI at least marginally useful (if they are buying).

 

I've tried to do some experimenting with slavery expansion to see if the AI is capable of benefiting from slave prostitutes, laborers and soldiers. I sold a ton of prostitutes to my vassals and it seemed like they were making money off of them. I can't be sure though. Most mechanics offered by mods are not used properly or at all by the AI unfortunately. I've tried using mods where the AI will attempt abduction schemes on me or my courtiers but it has not worked. In EK2 the magic system is not used by the AI at all. It is unfortunate but I think it is the norm.  

Maybe you could just boost the AI's income based on how many slaves they own. Something simple that both gives the AI an advantage and is unavailable to the player

On 2/7/2023 at 4:29 PM, pharaox said:

OK, I think I know the reason. The interaction is only enabled on "close" rulers (vassals in your realms or neighboring rulers, including across water). This is done for performance reasons, and to make sure the AI and the human player get similar opportunities. So the lord in question is most likely not your neighbor. If they somehow become one the interaction should appear.

They were on my border but they were a vassal of the actual ruler

 

On 2/7/2023 at 4:29 PM, pharaox said:

By whom? At the point of time the situation is detected, I don't think it's even possible to check what exactly happened to their owner so that they lost their titles, or even what these titles even were. Did they lose a war, or were they captured and enslaved themselves? In both cases, could another person claim ownership of their slaves? After all, slaves are bound to a person, not to a title. It's all too complicated, so I am afraid we should leave those slaves enjoy their unexpected luck.

 

I would not know how to code it but if a ruler lost all titles or died then their slaves should be given to either their heir if they are rulers or to to whoever took their last primary title. 

 

 

 

 

It is for sure possible to create a unique building line and use it as a trigger or as a requirement for a decision. EK2 adds an orphanage that when built allows you to use an "adoption" decision if you do not have an heir. This could definitely be reconfigures into a slave market. 

[Durante]

What decides whether a prisoner is taken as a slave or a concubine?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Durante

[pharaox]

13 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

It would be hard to find historical examples of slave owners not having the legal right to kill their slaves

 

I am not arguing about this. I just don't see the need to introduce a "murder" mechanic if there is already "execute". "Not to my taste" in a sense "not the way I think it should be designed".

 

13 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

I sold a ton of prostitutes to my vassals and it seemed like they were making money off of them.

 

They will keep their "profession" but never set it themselves or change it. The corresponding interactions are human only, it's easy to check in the code.

 

13 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

I would not know how to code it but if a ruler lost all titles or died then their slaves should be given to either their heir if they are rulers or to to whoever took their last primary title. 

 

On death this is already the case, the slaves go to their primary heir. On losing titles while alive - perhaps, but I would need to do something entirely different to figure out who exactly should inherit. Perhaps it's possible, but I am not sure how important is this to spend time on. Maybe I could return to this at a later point.

 

13 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

Maybe you could just boost the AI's income based on how many slaves they own.

 

This is again "not to my taste". I think I should rather make sure that the AI can benefit from slaves in ways already prescribed by the game - by using them as councillors or knights, by selling or ransoming them, by pressing their titles, or by enjoying their attractiveness (this last one is a bit problematic, I know).

[pharaox]

1 hour ago, Durante said:

What decides whether a prisoner is taken as a slave or a concubine?

 

You mean how the AI would make such a decision? With a prisoner, you can never be sure. There is a number of competing interactions that are executed by the AI with different frequency. The first one that results in a positive ai_will_do modifier will be randomly checked with probability the value of that modifier divided by 100. If the check succeeds, the effects listed in on_accept will be performed. As a result, a prisoner may be executed, enslaved, ransomed, freed, etc.