Sheogorath irritates me. (spoilers perhaps)

[leddis3]

Having now seen Sheogorath... I suppose this was inevitable since, well, they're not going to drop/redesign a major lore character because of players but.. Sheogorath rubs me the wrong way. Why? Because he's Sheogorath.

 

Why is that a problem? Because *I'm* Sheogorath.

Or rather, my characters are. Characters I've invested time and thought into RP wise. That also just happen to be female.

Yet here comes Skyrim and tells me "Nah, sorry. Your character was fake, twas a dude all along. Har har!"

Personally I feel miffed when a story my character has taken part in and I've had fun with is basically torn to shreds by the developers in an instant.

 

Am I overreacting here? Does anyone else feel the discomfort as I do?

[Jexsam]

Here's the thing; your hard work crafting this character's story basically means jack shit when it comes to sequels. Everything is out the window when this happens. You may not like it, but you can't change it. Hell, Shivering Isles might not even be TES canon where Skyrim is concerned (which would be annoying, but they've done dumber things).

 

You can do one of two things; adapt to the established canon (maybe this character got bored of being mad?, or perhaps some other supernatural event divided Sheogorath permanently from Jyggalag and he decided he wanted his throne back?), or mod your game so that your character actually is Sheogorath.

 

The only advice I can offer is roleplay your way around it.

[leddis3]

Yeah I know generally our individual stories are meaningless unless save files or whatever are involved. Still, most games have the decency to not rub contrary choices in your face.

[gregathit]

While your character technically was Sheogorath for a time....that is the key...it is now two hundred years later. While our characters inherited the god-like power of Sheogorath we were still "mortal". Why do you think Jyggalag agreed to leave you alone? Obviously because you beat him in battle, but he realized that time would defeat you where he could not and once you died, then he simply seized power once again. Is that cannon....who knows?? I'd be curious to know the real story......

 

As to the sex......well the original was a dude so likely they just were lazy and stuck with it. Who knows......

[leddis3]

Well Daedric Princes are immortal so the time thing isn't an issue.

And your char does become immortal, it's even a (weak) gameplay element.

 

As to the sex......well the original was a dude so likely they just were lazy and stuck with it. Who knows......

 

You know it just strikes me that if they weren't willing to kill him off, well, they shouldn't have killed him off!

I mean I can understand why, I do actually like Sheogorath as a character, but still.

[Jexsam]

Well Daedric Princes are immortal so the time thing isn't an issue.

And your char does become immortal' date=' it's even a (weak) gameplay element.

 

As to the sex......well the original was a dude so likely they just were lazy and stuck with it. Who knows......

 

You know it just strikes me that if they weren't willing to kill him off, well, they shouldn't have killed him off!

I mean I can understand why, I do actually like Sheogorath as a character, but still.

 

But you're not immortal. They outright tell you when you take the throne that you aren't actually Sheogorath, or even a Daedric Prince, more like a stand-in with the various perks that come with the job. The character in question, barring outside rp'd immortality, is still beholden to time, and would eventually die.

 

Secondly, Sheogorath didn't die. He became, or more accurately reverted into, Jyggalag.

 

My theory is Jyggalag pulled the same "I'll make everything Orderly!" nonsense again and the other Princes got pissed and just turned him back into Sheogorath. Which essentially means Shivering Isles, even if it was canon, was basically an exercise in futility...

 

...but then again, isn't the definition of madness doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...?

[Old Book]

I've always thought that Jyggalag threw that fight. He never wanted to be Sheogorath. He wanted to pass on the curse, and now he has. To you. He's free, you're stuck going mad as the curse consumes you, just as it consumed him.

 

That said, Sheogorath is a shape changer. Maybe 200 years later, completely consumed by madness, your Sheogorath has decided to change forms again. After all, he changed forms in the time between Daggerfall and Morrowind, and again between Morrowind and Oblivion. Gender doesn't mean much to a Mad God.

[stgmilleralive]

Have you ever considered that being the lord of madness in a plane of Oblivion is really more of spiritual than a physical condition?

 

Perhaps the Sheogorath you're speaking to really is the Champion of Cyrodil but after two hundred years inside a realm of MADNESS has been changed to reflect that realm.

 

Sheogorath was as much the ruler of the Isles as the Isles were an extension of his mental and physical appearance. I could imagine that the planes of Oblivion aren't pleasant to live in and neither is it likely that a mortal is meant to 'replace' a Daedric Prince.

 

Likely, you 'became' Sheogorath over two hundred years of ruling the daedric realm. Even if your character was female, this process could still apply. Like how the black knight in Infinity Blade is your father if you choose to join the God King. It makes sense because Sheogorath was the epitome of an insane scotsman and his very title was that of Mad-God. I doubt Daedric Princes can change their nature and must do what their ideals are, for they have no 'true' free-will.

 

If you find this nonsensical then do yourself a favor and read up on the freaking 'time-warp' they justified at the end of Daggerfall lol.

[Jexsam]

If you find this nonsensical then do yourself a favor and read up on the freaking 'time-warp' they justified at the end of Daggerfall lol.

 

The Warp in the West as explained be professionals.

[Goryokaku]

he was based round the mad-king of scots so i expect it but i think it wouldn't have harmed them to put a save game reader into it if nothing else but to collect data on the gender of your hero if it detects a Shivering Isle save however if you have multiple saves how do you decide which one to pick? cause you arn't necessarily going to play female every time... Mind you i do... but that's just me. I can't really make assumptions for anyone else.

[oblivioner]

Well them making people into gods isn't entirely out of the question though, is it?

 

They made Tiber Septim into a god for just unifying most of tamriel. Your character in Oblivion saves all of Tamriel and the empire Tiber created, helps kick Mehrunes Dagon back into his place and saves the Jyggalag from the curse of madness.

 

As to why Sheo would be a guy now regardless of your character's gender: Just take it like Discworld's Death (or Om for that matter), the image and personality the gods(et al.) take on is representative of what their believers think they should look like.

 

EDIT: If you talk your character to full lengths... not only did you save the empire and the entire realm of Tamriel, you are also arch-mage for the entire mages' guild, grey fox, the listener for the DB, and the champion to every single one of the Daedric princes. The Daedra might have just made your char a god just to give you something to do to keep their jobs safe.

[GrimReaper]

Daedra don't have a gender. They may appear as a male or female but that's up to them (Azura is often depicted as a female and even has a female voice but Azura is a Daedra Prince - genderless).

 

 

That being said, after Shivering Isles you became the new Sheogorath. I assumed that the hero would eventually transform into the old Sheogorath, being only a vessel and so forth.

[stgmilleralive]

If you find this nonsensical then do yourself a favor and read up on the freaking 'time-warp' they justified at the end of Daggerfall lol.

 

The Warp in the West as explained be professionals.

 

 

Bah, give it the fancy name the lore says I still say it's the most laughable compensation for a player-base. A time-warp crazy hole causes all the events to happen at once, such a twist wouldn't work in video game story-writing today.

 

Sure it appeases to the players but it really didn't 'fit' with the high fantasy vibe of Daggerfall.

[DocClox]

Perhaps the Sheogorath you're speaking to really is the Champion of Cyrodil but after two hundred years inside a realm of MADNESS has been changed to reflect that realm.

 

I think this is almost certainly the case. There were a number of hints in SI that the player might "grow into the role"' date=' and (Lore wise) I think we can take this as confirmation. The Champion took on more of Sheogorath's power over time, and (perhaps inevitably) more of his personality as well.

 

Of course, you could make an equal case for Jyggalag's curse re-asserting itself as it always has in the past, and the original Sheogorath coming back a decade or so later and saying "[i']Thanks for looking after the place during the Greymarch, I'll have my throne back now, please.[/i]".

 

I doubt we'll ever know for certain which scenario applies, but I think it has to be one of the two.

[gregathit]

Perhaps the Sheogorath you're speaking to really is the Champion of Cyrodil but after two hundred years inside a realm of MADNESS has been changed to reflect that realm.

 

I think this is almost certainly the case. There were a number of hints in SI that the player might "grow into the role"' date=' and (Lore wise) I think we can take this as confirmation. The Champion took on more of Sheogorath's power over time, and (perhaps inevitably) more of his personality as well.

 

Of course, you could make an equal case for Jyggalag's curse re-asserting itself as it always has in the past, and the original Sheogorath coming back a decade or so later and saying "[i']Thanks for looking after the place during the Greymarch, I'll have my throne back now, please.[/i]".

 

I doubt we'll ever know for certain which scenario applies, but I think it has to be one of the two.

 

Your forgetting a spin on the 2nd option....that your pc dies and THEN the jyggalag curse comes back. I can't find one single reference where the pc becomes a god. Yes you inherit god-like power (through the staff) but are still mortal. Many different times this is mentioned during the game so I am confused as to why anyone would think or assume otherwise....?

[DocClox]

Your forgetting a spin on the 2nd option....that your pc dies and THEN the jyggalag curse comes back. I can't find one single reference where the pc becomes a god.

 

There are well established cases of mortals becoming gods. Vivec' date=' for isntance. Or closer to Skyrim, Talos. Why should this be beyond the PC?

 

Yes you inherit god-like power (through the staff) but are still mortal.

 

That's right. The question is left ambiguous.

 

Many different times this is mentioned during the game so I am confused as to why anyone would think or assume otherwise....?

 

I did say you could make a good case for either outcome. I'm confused as to why anyone would think that only was possible.

[gregathit]

@DocClox, the question still stands where does it mention your pc becomes a god? I am just wondering why some make this assumption? Besides it is worth mentioning that if the pc somehow DID become a god in an oblivion realm he is stuck there and can't go back due to the compact.

 

Sure others have attained deity, but no game references exist with regards to the pc. Perhaps something is buried in skyrim for us to find (that would be cool, yea?) but definitely not in oblivion. So presented with the lack of any mention of you being anything but a mortal, I just don't follow the leap in logic of becoming a god.

 

In the case of Talos becoming a god - he didn't do it on his own as the other gods raised him up. Can't recall the circumstances on Vivec.... Are folks implying that somehow jyggalag bestowed god-hood on the pc? Seems kind of a far fetched scheme to me as most deadric princes are hell bent for leather after all the power they can grab. Jyggalag only backed off due to loosing the battle and that he didn't want to become sheogorath again.

 

Of course since this is a fantasy game no real logic need apply and folks can think as they wish.

 

 

[galgat]

I laughed all the way through the Sheogorath instance, I thought it was funny.. I needed it after beating my way through about a dozen or more dungeons..lol, its like the Alice and wonderland tea party.. Just a few moments of absolute insanity..

[Old Book]

Are folks implying that somehow jyggalag bestowed god-hood on the pc? Seems kind of a far fetched scheme to me as most deadric princes are hell bent for leather after all the power they can grab. Jyggalag only backed off due to loosing the battle and that he didn't want to become sheogorath again.

 

Of course since this is a fantasy game no real logic need apply and folks can think as they wish.

 

 

 

The text of the game seemed to read that Jyggalag passed on his curse to the PC, which carried with it Daedra Prince-like powers in the Shivering Isles. There was also plenty of text about the PC growing into his role, and prophesies that seemed to imply that a mortal would become Sheogorath.

 

So, your character became "A king? A god? It seems uncertain."

 

I read it as Jyg throwing the fight to free himself, and seeding the Player Character with a chunk of his power and his curse in the bargain.

 

I don't think you won the fight at all; Jyg was a pushover. As Sheo, he could crush you like a bug.

[gregathit]

Exactly my point As a daedric prince in his own realm you as a mortal wouldn't stand a chance in a fight to the death (whether he was sheo or jyg makes no real difference - why...because its his realm and thus he could change the rules of it at anytime he pleased).

 

So the main motivation was for you to help jyggalag get rid of the curse. Perhaps it was enough for you to become sheo to break the cycle of the curse for a brief time thus nullifying it forever (kissing the frog type deal).

 

No real way of ever proving this theory or any of the others for that matter until Beth provides more info one way or another. The fact that there still IS a sheo - be it the pc or jyg falling back into the cycle of the curse just confuses things further. Perhaps in a future dlc or tes6 sheo will make a comment about filling a pit with clowns AND having a mortal champion as two failed schemes...

 

Interesting to speculate about regardless of which side of the mountain you happen to be viewing....

[Old Book]

I always save my major mod cheating for after I'm Sheo. After all, now that I have a chunk of the power of a Mad God, all of those sweet stupid uber spells make more sense.

[DocClox]

@DocClox' date=' the question still stands where does it mention your pc becomes a god?

[/quote']

 

Nowhere. But then again it doesn't say that he doesn't either. What we do have are repeated suggestions that the PC might attain godhood by virtue of assuming Sheo's throne, which is why I don't think we can rule out the possibility. I also don't think we can rule out the possibility that the original Sheo returned to take his throne, under whatever circumstances. In fact, the second option is probably the more likely one ... but not the only one

 

I don't have my gaming box to hand at the moment, but as I recall Sheo, Jyg and Haskell all speculate on the possibility that the PC might grow into the role.

 

I am just wondering why some make this assumption?

 

It's not really an assumption in my case. It's one of two possible outcomes' date=' given the data available, and the one I prefer to think is true. But the facts available are ambiguous, intentionally so, I suspect.

 

Besides it is worth mentioning that if the pc somehow DID become a god in an oblivion realm he is stuck there and can't go back due to the compact.

 

Of course. If he is still there, he's probably "grown into the role" to the extent that he's effectively indistinguishable from the original. I'm certainly not suggesting that our Oblivion PCs are still sitting on the throne of the courts of madness, unchanged after 200 years.

 

Sure others have attained deity' date=' but no game references exist with regards to the pc. Perhaps something is buried in skyrim for us to find (that would be cool, yea?) but definitely not in oblivion. So presented with the lack of any mention of you being anything but a mortal, I just don't follow the leap in logic of becoming a god.

[/quote']

 

The possibility is raised in Oblivion, and to my mind cannot be lightly dismissed. There is no evidence either way.

 

In the case of Talos becoming a god - he didn't do it on his own as the other gods raised him up. Can't recall the circumstances on Vivec....

 

Vivec used the power of the heart of of Lorkhan to propel him to Godhood' date=' along with the other members of the Tribunal.

 

Are folks implying that somehow jyggalag bestowed god-hood on the pc? Seems kind of a far fetched scheme to me as most deadric princes are hell bent for leather after all the power they can grab. Jyggalag only backed off due to loosing the battle and that he didn't want to become sheogorath again.

 

I think Sheogorath gave the PC just enough juice to jump start him on the journey to godhood. it's plausible that this power, along with the staff of Sheo and the whole "symbols have power" thing gave him enough impetus to fully ascend over time.

 

All speculation, of course. But I think it's as valid a theory as any other.

 

Of course since this is a fantasy game no real logic need apply and folks can think as they wish.

 

Of course. We both agree that we'll never know for sure' date=' short of a definitive statement from Beth, and from some of the hints about the nature of the Elder Scrolls, it's possible that definitive answer is in fact impossible.

 

That said, we do know mortals can ascend to godhood; we know Sheo was grooming the PC for the role; and Sheo, Jyg and Haskell all seemed to think PC goodhood was a possibility, albeit something of a remote one.

 

So no, I'm not saying that the PC absolutely [b']did[/b] turn into Sheo. But equally, I don't think there are sufficient grounds to dismiss the possibility out of hand, either

 

Interesting to speculate about regardless of which side of the mountain you happen to be viewing....

 

Here, I think, we are agreement

 

[LifeandEd]

I usually play male characters, but when I first did mind of madness, this same thought occurred to me as well. The way I personally see it is simple: the champion "grew into it," as others have said, not only mentally, as in going crazy, but also physically. So if you played a female char, her appearance changed into that of a man. It may seem strange, but it's hardly the craziest thing to happen in the history of the Shivering Isles.

 

On the positive side, if Sheogorath really WAS the champion, I have to give Bethesda credit: they really made up for putting the nevarine out to sea on a boat to get him out of the way. Making the Champion one of my favorite characters in the history of gaming is a stroke of genius, in my opinion.

[ogre3000]

The world shapes the man...that said...its no wonder he ended up like that being in a world full of madmen for 200 years...gues its also no wonder he went on a vacation as well:D

Anyway the basic player character is an imperial male theyre going for the basic not the option you chosen...just like in skyrim its a male nord

[chukkake]

potentially tangentially related?