Rockwell Pursuit

[DoctaSax]

I've often thought that in a way, that lexicon contains everything anybody needs to know about modding communities. It should be required reading.

[Blunderbuss]

I'm going to continue to be the kind respectful rebel here,

 

I'd again like to point out that the Rockwell Pursuit is not game breaking.

I had a wonderful time playing it with complete ease and gaiety. Don't worry about the scaremongering, I'd venture to say that nobody here has in fact played the mod but me?

 

In regards to his 'sinfully' dirty edits: since his file is an .esm, wouldn't this forcefully overwrite conflicts created with other .esp mods that alter the same entry?

 

Found the mod authour's response on the descent discussion. Uncalled for, but you have to admit the accuser was quite rude in his dealings with the dude. Nothing that couldn't of been PMed instead of pointing the finger of injustice... Probably why the accuser didn't include his comment in the quote. That's trickery in my eyes.

I digress.

[zippy57]

I'd again like to point out that the Rockwell Pursuit is not game breaking.

I had a wonderful time playing it with complete ease and gaiety. Don't worry about the scaremongering, I'd venture to say that nobody here has in fact played the mod but me?

We don't have to have played it. An experienced modder can tell from the file itself that there a large number of issues.

In regards to his 'sinfully' dirty edits: since his file is an .esm, wouldn't this forcefully overwrite conflicts created with other .esp mods that alter the same entry?

First, irrelevant, as his is not the only mod that is a master. Second, not an excuse for having a dirty mod.

Found the mod authour's response on the descent discussion. Uncalled for, but you have to admit the accuser was quite rude in his dealings with the dude. Nothing that couldn't of been PMed instead of pointing the finger of injustice... Probably why the accuser didn't include his comment in the quote. That's trickery in my eyes.

First, you're calling his comment rude and you didn't quote it either. That's trickery in my eyes. Second, if a mod is as horribly game-breaking as Descent was, you go straight to the public thread so all current and potential users are aware of the issue as soon as possible. A good modder will understand that the issue was brought up publically so that users didn't have their games ruined by it, and that if he didn't want the issue made public maybe he should have not screwed it up in the first place.

[Halstrom]

I'm going to continue to be the kind respectful rebel here,

 

I'd again like to point out that the Rockwell Pursuit is not game breaking.

I had a wonderful time playing it with complete ease and gaiety. Don't worry about the scaremongering, I'd venture to say that nobody here has in fact played the mod but me?

 

In regards to his 'sinfully' dirty edits: since his file is an .esm, wouldn't this forcefully overwrite conflicts created with other .esp mods that alter the same entry?

 

Found the mod authour's response on the descent discussion. Uncalled for, but you have to admit the accuser was quite rude in his dealings with the dude. Nothing that couldn't of been PMed instead of pointing the finger of injustice... Probably why the accuser didn't include his comment in the quote. That's trickery in my eyes.

I digress.

We may not have played the mod but we've played or even created other mods doing the same thing and experienced the potential chaos. It may run just fine 99% of the time, the other 1% of the time it may just screw up something else in another mod for a user who then reports an issue with the affected mod author, who doesn't use the Dirty edit mod so can't find why his mod is behaving screwy after hours of testing & bughunting. Regardless of what it overwrites where in the load order, it's overwriting stuff that's not even necessary to be overwritten, there are very few cases where that is necessary, the other problem is if someone else dirty edits his good edits he will be in the same boat of bughunting a non-existant bug. I have no problem with people reporting issues with my mods publicly, it happens quite frequently, I've had dirty edits at times in my own mods, for me it's habit now to check my mods in FNVEdit before every upload, issues shared publicly also share the learning too for others, some people just take things more personally than others.

[BruceWayne]

Found the mod authour's response on the descent discussion. Uncalled for, but you have to admit the accuser was quite rude in his dealings with the dude. Nothing that couldn't of been PMed instead of pointing the finger of injustice... Probably why the accuser didn't include his comment in the quote. That's trickery in my eyes.

I digress.

 

@ JacobWhinwright 

It should be happening given how many dirty edits you've made to VMS21 which is Bye Bye Love. You've deleted compiled scripts from a lot of the dialogue, you copied Vault 21 to include a copy of Carlitos and all the quests and triggers and markers. It's the kind of thing I was talking about in my previous post. You left a lot of dirty edits in the original vanilla parts you copied. Heck you even moved the Endgame location of Ron the Narrator and the location of the trigger that fires off the Endgame scene. The mod needs to be cleaned and organized or bugs will keep popping up as people stumble into the locations where you've left dirty edits or where you've deleted compiled scripts or copied existing triggers/scripted events.

 

This is the "rude" comment in question. Oh this foul trickery, he got us once again... /sarcasm

 

You know, if you wouldn't have decided to come here and stink up the place by defending your mod, nobody would be talking about this anymore. This thread would have been read by the five people that frequent this part of the forum, get maybe 50 hits over the course of a year and the whole discussion would have been over a long time ago. But if you want a debate about why your mod is so bad in detail, you shall get what you ask for.

 

 

[Blunderbuss]

All I'm saying is that your views here, and the views of others everywhere else strongly contradict each other.

I continue to defend this mod.... An individual has taken an immense amount of time out to build this masterpiece for you, with no sight of no reward. As far as I'm concerned we have no right to penalize this great modder for his charity. As somebody has already stated on these forums in the Rockwell Descent discussion:

I think of "beta" and "experimental" (within modding communities) as sort of weasel words - it gives the authors a bit of leeway, or at least a sense of it, in case of things exploding, causing cancer, killing pets, etc. "Hey, it's in beta, you should know things like this could happen."

Not that I blame them. At all. Users have no place to demand perfection from unpaid modders putting in hours and hours of work, but they often do.

 

 

Just to add, the mod in question has just won File of the Month...

And this devilish modder is currently on the development team for Project Brazil.

 

 

[DoctaSax]

I'd again like to point out that the Rockwell Pursuit is not game breaking.

 

Maybe not in your game. That will depend on people's load order. No mod is an island: most people play with more than one mod active. The definition of "dirty" is not "full of game-breaking errors" but "full of unnecessary edits that'll create conflicts with other mods", causing breakage, as well as headaches for both players and other modders.

 

 

In regards to his 'sinfully' dirty edits: since his file is an .esm, wouldn't this forcefully overwrite conflicts created with other .esp mods that alter the same entry?

First, irrelevant, as his is not the only mod that is a master. Second, not an excuse for having a dirty mod.

 

I would add: third, no. An esm doesn't magically transform dirtiness into un-dirtiness.

 

And yes, that number of dirty edits - more than just the occasional cell reference that got touched by accident - is sinful. Altering base objects instead of creating copies of your own to work with: sin. I have no idea when this stopped being common knowledge, but it's a sad state of affairs that it no longer is, apparently. Probably comes from giving FOTM status to dirty mods, and protecting beginners from the advice of the experienced.

Found the mod authour's response on the descent discussion. Uncalled for, but you have to admit the accuser was quite rude in his dealings with the dude. Nothing that couldn't of been PMed instead of pointing the finger of injustice... Probably why the accuser didn't include his comment in the quote. That's trickery in my eyes.

If the author had taken the criticism in stride, like most of us do regularly, and fixed it, none of us would be having this discussion. We all make mistakes, but we fix them and learn from them.

[Blunderbuss]

Right then, Perhaps we should not dwell on past feeble words anymore. Instead; reach out to, help and encourage other mod authors in our community. 

 

I'm sorry if I rocked the boat. But I felt entitled.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Right then, Perhaps we should not dwell on past feeble words anymore. Instead; reach out to, help and encourage other mod authors in our community. 

 

I'm sorry if I rocked the boat. But I felt entitled.

 

If you somehow decide to "reach out" by taking onboard the fair and constructive criticism you've received here and elsewhere, then yes, I'm 100% with you. But if you think FOTM somehow vindicates you in spite of the dirty edits of your mods, and that you do not need to heed the advice of those trying to help you out, then no. Not at all. 

[zippy57]

Let's say you're at a baseball game. There's runners on first and second with no one out, and the batter hits a fly ball out on the outfield grass behind short. The third base umpire calls Infield Fly. What happens? 40,000 people boo because the ball wasn't in the infield. But the fact that 40,000 people think that's how the Infield Fly Rule works doesn't mean it suddenly works that way.

 

I guarantee you that most of the users on the Nexus have never even opened the GECK, same as here. They don't have a clue whether or not a mod is actually properly created or not, nor would most of them know the difference even if it were happening in game, just ask the 157 who endorsed Rockwell Descent and I guess never noticed most of Vault 21 was missing afterwards. Those are the fans and the modders are the umpires. We know how this game works, and we know when something is wrong. Just because everyone else thinks the mod works fine doesn't mean it does.

 

A new modder is like a new umpire. You need to understand how to take criticism from your peers. If you don't, then when you call Infield Fly and 40,000 people agree with you it'll be because 40,001 people on the field were wrong.

[Blunderbuss]

Okay then. I understand where you all are coming from, and It's somewhat gotten through my thick skull.

But before I flee this website under the cover of darkness, with a trench coat and a horsehair mustache - being somewhat gracefully enlightened by my brief stay here, may I ask you the one question of:

In spite of the Modder's obvious mistakes, do you appreciate the time, imagination and work put into it? 

 

Call the question childish and self-absorbing, but at least encourage him. He's made mistakes I'm sure, and he's aware of it.

 

I'm pretty sure in the future, with this knowledge, he should 'clean' up his act.

 

Thanks Folks,

[zippy57]

He clearly put a lot of time and effort into those mods. Most of the negative impression of him is based less on the fact that the mod was dirty and more on the fact that he refused to fix it after he was told, and then went on to make a second dirty mod. So yes, I appreciate the effort involved. Making any mod, especially a quest mod, is not an easy task. I just wish he had accepted constructive criticism when it was given to him.

[ChancellorKremlin]

What Zippy said. At no point are we refuting the effort, time and energy put into the mod, we're simply questioning the ethics behind the hostility shown towards constructive criticism, and the modder's attitude towards fixing it (or lack of attitude) for that matter. 

 

When properly "cleaned" it would indeed make a great mod and with a change of attitude, you'd see a much friendlier response from your own fellow modders.

[Halstrom]

Okay then. I understand where you all are coming from, and It's somewhat gotten through my thick skull.

But before I flee this website under the cover of darkness, with a trench coat and a horsehair mustache - being somewhat gracefully enlightened by my brief stay here, may I ask you the one question of:

 

In spite of the Modder's obvious mistakes, do you appreciate the time, imagination and work put into it? 

 

Call the question childish and self-absorbing, but at least encourage him. He's made mistakes I'm sure, and he's aware of it.

 

I'm pretty sure in the future, with this knowledge, he should 'clean' up his act.

 

Thanks Folks,

No need to flee the site, if the author want's to come here himself he's welcome, help is given to those who ask well for it, if I hadn't come here, I'd probably be still doing dirty mods on Nexus myself, I deleted a lot of mine there as I was so appalled at my beginner works and they didn't seem to be popular anyway

In the end we want as little conflict between each others works as possible, and I can appreciate the work he's put in regardless of the mistakes, it a crap load more than the average "GodGun" mod, and obviously something a lot of people like, it just needs to be refined for final release with advice taken where offered.