Yeah Lets talk about Patreon

[hdiddy]

Paid mods have been a constant point of contention in basically every community for modding games, including MG.  That said I would like to hear from the community on your take.  I have my opinions which I will add in a reply to this post, but I only set this club up as I saw a need I can fill.  And in my opinion the community should be the ones who decide what they want to allow for things that are a matter of opinion.  Call it my American democratic side if you like...just my opinion.

 

That said check the poll and vote (it's anonymous).  I am curious about the Pros and Cons for not allowing or allowing folks to Post links to Patreon. 

 

Lets keep it civil, we all have the same goals here to make increase the community engagement for all TK17 users.

[Oz70NYC]

I'll try to keep this brief, but I want to firmly establish that I voted yes...and also explain why. I preface this by saying I don't have content on Patreon. I probably never will. However I support 3 creators on Patreon, because they put major effort into their content, and I show my appreciation by way of throwing them a "tip". That in essence is all it actually is. "Tipping your Uber driver for services rendered." At the end of the day, content creators (modders, pose makers, texture makers and model makers) do so on their own volition. Some put in weeks if not months on content. If those that do want a little monetary motivation to keep upping their game, let them. You're not forced to donate to them...nor are you entitled to the content they provide. Also, I hate that phrase "pay wall". It's not a pay wall. If a creator was charging you $3 per content...then yea, that's a pay wall (and also sketchy as fuck). You donate upwards of $10 a month for all of the content said creator provides. You could donate for 1 month, download everything that creator as uploaded, then cancel the next month. It's on the creator to continue putting out content to keep you a patron. If they don't, you can split no questions asked.

[pes1972]

I also said yes, since I´m all for it when people are using patreon for posting original stuff, what I don´t like are the people only selling animations with poses/models created by other users and all they do is using a different room/setting and a lousy story to go with it.

[Mr_Smoke]

lol No one is promoting that here. Seriously, will the individual get his head out his ass and stop pretending to be on a righteous cause.

But I'll bite and play devils advocate. A ban on patreon - So what? Will that person want a ban those mentioning Hook5. If so, you'll be killing off a big part of the community by banning those finding interest in the game because of the graphical improvement that Hook5 gives. Hell, I modded and created stuff because of the visual improvements that Hook5 created.

 

What is funny about this discussion is that Patreon has always been a problem but the failures to even address it correctly and those at top always decided to ignore it. Firstly, it chased away most of the modders because those on top decided to ignore it and let video and picture patreon users flourish. But at the thought of a modder making a patreon, all of sudden a light bulb starts to turn on and people start targeting and labeling modders as bad.

 

A ban is outright wrong. You'll chase off key people. You ban Pervk, you'll be killing off the game because most remaining modders will move on to another platform because there is no point to even modding the game with a standard limited graphical capabilities.

[Oz70NYC]

5 minutes ago, Mr_Smoke said:

lol No one is promoting that here. Seriously, will the individual get his head out his ass and stop pretending to be on a righteous cause.

But I'll bite and play devils advocate. A ban on patreon - So what? Will that person want a ban those mentioning Hook5. If so, you'll be killing off a big part of the community by banning those finding interest in the game because of the graphical improvement that Hook5 gives. Hell, I modded and created stuff because of the visual improvements that Hook5 created.

 

What is funny about this discussion is that Patreon has always been a problem but the failures to even address it correctly and those at top always decided to ignore it. Firstly, it chased away most of the modders because those on top decided to ignore it and let video and picture patreon users flourish. But at the thought of a modder making a patreon, all of sudden a light bulb starts to turn on and people start targeting and labeling modders as bad.

 

A ban is outright wrong. You'll chase off key people. You ban Pervk, you'll be killing off the game because most remaining modders will move on to another platform because there is no point to even modding the game with a standard limited graphical capabilities.

Smoke's logic is sound. If you're going to ban the usage of Patreon, it needs to be ACROSS THE BOARD...which would include ultimately killing off the Hook5 project. I've been around long enough to see many...MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNY content creators jump ship or flat out quit because of how Patreon is addressed in this community. Picture and video Patreons have no place...that I can completely agree with. Mods on the other hand? That's fair game.

[pes1972]

I myself would never use VX or any version of the game if hook 5 was not an option, so banning pervopetkr and hook 5 project would definately stop me from using it and i guess a huge amount of other users would look for an alternative game where the graphics don´t look completely outdated like in the one without hook installed

[Mr_Smoke]

Another point is that, certain people are just mentioning a "ban" without even explaining anything which is extremely generalized - in which can include many thing and create unwanted consequences. The fact that its being bought now where it should of been addressed years ago, many modders have either left or lost interest, which brings in another point, if people don't address correctly and blame modders and not also include a certain group, than there is bias and favoritism which by the way has been already shown.

[hdiddy]

Interesting thoughts.  For me I'm indifferent.  If someone wants to pay someone for something that they think is worth it.  Go ahead. However like most communities the stuff that is really worth it will usually speak for itself.  For example I suscribed to one persons Patreon that makes stories and poses.  After about a month it was not really worth my time and I unsubscribed. Did they put stuff on the Garden maybe like 10% of their content was on MG. Was the other 90% worth the cost? Not in my opinion.

 

That said I am willing to go either way.  I think the model that PervK's Hook 5 does is perfect.  He provides a free Hook 5 that gets you about 80% of what you need, and provides a Paid version for more advanceced features. Frabb also who has put rooms that were on his Patreon for a while to the Garden for free.

 

So I am going to pick on Smoke as I support his Patreon.  Nobody does PE morphs for clothes.  Nooooooobody. I understand why...that shit takes time. The thing is that is a huge plus to attract more modders in. I see the value of what he is doing so I pay for immediate access to it. If he releases something to his Patreon, I would hope sometime after when the hype has died he would release it to the community. Then he goes makes some other master piece and the cycle continues. If more modders come in and start making better shit..well Smoke has to up his game..and that's how we get quality content.

[R41n7]

 

[AlejandroGarden]

they should read the rules of this forum to know that this kind of questioning and attempt at "democracy" is out of place.

 

But evidently they formed a world in which exceptions are supported regardless of whether the world itself is ultimately excluded.

 

The products being purchased are known, but not the massive free mods that may have proliferated including those released by third parties.

Having said that. have a good shopping and favorites!

[_K17_]

I just want to add my 2 cents, that the poll is NOT for hook5, but for content like poses, outfits, models, rooms, etc.

We work with Pervo, so H5 is excluded of the debate.

Therefore the poll should mention this, otherwise it will be invalid, since 85% of members are using Hook.

[Mr_Smoke]

4 minutes ago, _K17_ said:

I just want to add my 2 cents, that the poll is NOT for hook5, but for content like poses, outfits, models, rooms, etc.

We work with Pervo, so H5 is excluded of the debate.

Therefore the poll should mention this, otherwise it will be invalid, since 85% of members are using Hook.

Address it correctly because from what I got, from MG with you generous post addressed to me and Patreon users is that NO PATREON WILL BE allowed. You are generalizing the idea to ban Patreon users and when shit hits the fan, you'll simple dodge criticism.

 

Though I agree on excluding pervopetkr, you still let patreon roam rampant this year. It was only your issue with me that you decided to "clamp" down on it. Even though I asked earlier this year that it should be addressed only for you to ignore it. And at this point, you are picking favoritism and still siding with video and picture patreon (even though they are ones that drove away many of the modders).

 

Also, I'd like to clarify, it may look and sound like I have an issue with picture, video, or game patreon, but I don't. Damage is already done I learned to move from it.

[Oz70NYC]

I'm gonna have to side with Smoke on this one. Outright banning Patreon submissions is flagrant, at best. And this is coming from someone who does not, nor ever will put content on Patreon...because quite frankly I don't think my content deserves it. Yes, I put out kick ass models, and your occasional poses and textures. But it's all stuff that anyone with dedication can learn how to make on their own. Rooms and clothing mods? Totally different story. If it were easy to make, we'd have more people making them...and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

At the end of the day, we have to come to terms with the fact that we have a community full of leechers. I mean, let's be real. Over 54k members on MG. Of that 54k, maybe 100 put out actual in-game content (mods, textures, poses, models and sequences). And of that 100, MAYBE 30 of us do so on a regular basis. Yet we have all these members lurking and leeching. If you ask me, it's not the folk using Patreon that's the problem, it's the multitude of people who take, take, take and don't contribute any form of content in return that's the problem.

[hdiddy]

So after reading the community guidelines, which I honestly should have done there are two rules that we must abide by when it comes to Paywalls.

 

Quote

5. Forum signatures should not be larger than 250 pixels high or 600 pixels wide. They must not contain any affiliate links, or links to paysites, and must be static (no animated gif). Signatures are allowed to contain pornographic content, as long as it is not anything deemed hardcore, which is up to the judgment of the site staff. A certain amount of leeway in regards to signature sizes or avatars is allowed here, the most important thing is to simply not make your signature overly intrusive or distracting. Avatars, like signatures, should also be static images and not animated. 

 

Quote

13. We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of the content. 

So basically...the options are simple, if you want to link to a Patreon you can basically just use a donate button. You also cannot setup your own store or paysite for content and then put that in your sig, I would say this probably includes Patreon unless you say something like "Donate to me on Patreon"

 

Some examples from key contributors in the SIMS 4 Channels

 

WhickedWhims Sims 4 Sex Mod uses "Want unreleased features early? Check my Patreon!"

 

LifeLine Animations just has a simple Patreon Button

 

So as Alejandro said earlier I don't think this some optional thing.  If you post an addon or anything and you want to add a link to your Patreon to support your folks.  That seems fine per community guidelines.  What you cannot do per guidelines is post a link to an Addon and tell people you have to subscribe to your Patreon to get it.  In my opinion this seems fair.  We all know what a donate to Patreon means.  So lets not be oblivious as  it means more additional content on the Patreon, however the rules of the site prohibit anyone from actually posting content that directly sends folks to Patreon.

[Oz70NYC]

9 hours ago, boomshanka said:

So what do you suggest that I, a man with no coding skills and no 3d design expertise, share with others? Do you want my shit poses clogging up the MG forum? Shall I send in my rather underwhelming attempts at videos so you and your like can tell me they're not very good? Would that absolve me of sin? 

 

To be labelled a leech because I use what other people offer is a fucking insult.

I started out the exact same way. But after a while, a couple years or so of seeing kick ass poses and textures being made, but nothing that appealed to me personally...I took it upon myself to learn how to make my own. And for a while I did exactly that, until I got good enough that I made quality enough stuff that I was comfortable to share. BOOM!!! I'm a content creator now. I read your comment and all I see is a cop-out. I don't make mods. I make models, poses and textures. Stuff that other folk use within their game. It's one of the easiest roads to take to be a contributing member. Furthermore, I don't call you a leech because you use what other people offer...you're a leech because you don't put back or contribute to the community AT ALL.

 

I don't know if you have another name on MG, but I have never seen you before in all my years in this community...2004. Never seen a post from you. Never seen your name among "Thank You". Nothing. That's what makes you a leech. You take and contribute nothing...not even feedback. If that's insulting to you well...that's sounds like a "you" problem. As I stated before...there's over 54k people signed up to MG, yet barely 500 actually post on the regular. And no, I don't count posts were people make requests...cuz you're not contributing to the community, you're asking for something. CONTRIBUTING means taking an active role to interact with others, be it you're sharing content or giving some form of feedback or communication. And NOT because what someone else said triggered you.

[AlejandroGarden]

interesting, because what I see is that it goes from insulting people who take things that others offer for free of OWN WILL and then to praise / adore others who break the community spirit by charging for their graphic improvements because "it makes your game look pretty. "

 

Incredible to see how that double rod is used to pay respect where it should not be and insult others just because I take something that is free.

 

I also believe that these people who do not contribute ,..have nothing to do with this issue since they do not even contribute for free or for profit. That is, they do not build but they do not destroy either, and not destroying a community is already something.

 

That said, in my opinion, the so-called "Leechers" are the least of the problems, not to say that they do not cause any problems, because they are there but it is as if they do not exist.

 

And if you still do not understand what I am talking about, see the true concept of community to know the true causes of the problems that currently exist.

[Oz70NYC]

35 minutes ago, AlejandroGarden said:

I also believe that these people who do not contribute ,..have nothing to do with this issue since they do not even contribute for free or for profit. 

 

And if you still do not understand what I am talking about, see the true concept of community to know the true causes of the problems that currently exist.

If there were more people actively contributing to putting out content, there wouldn't be a demand for those that do to put their content behind Patreon. Because given the choice of awesome content uploaded in bulk to the forum, and awesome content put on Patreon...majority of folk would go for the prior, not the later. As it stands now, that doesn't exist. Coupled with the unappreciative nature of those that do leech, offering nothing in the way of positive feedback or even interaction...is how the climate that's created the Patreon issue even started. If you can see that, that's your own short-sighteness.

 

As for "The true concept of community", here's the Merriam-Webster definition of "Community" Scroll down to definition 2B..."Joint ownership or participation". There goes the core concept as it pertains to us...participation. Or the lack there of. Bottom line...lack of participation from people (lurkers and leechers) creates the environment that those that do produce content feel under appreciated for their effort, which leads them to going the Patreon route, where their work is appreciated through monetary compensation. If there were more creators, no one would even bother going to Patreon, because there'd be a steady influx of "free" content. There isn't, because LEECHERS LEECH and don't give back to the "community" of which they take from.

 

And no level of gas-lighting you will ever do changes that fundamental fact. 

[Mr_Smoke]

15 minutes ago, AlejandroGarden said:

interesting because you take the more generalized concept where it opens up to different interests and therefore conflicts and not the primary concept of the same source to which you appeal.

 

That said, a terrorist who explodes a bomb somewhere for you is also part of the community, because  "participate".

 

That said, can you explain to me what happened to the contributors who previously participated? What were made of these and am I included?

Perhaps you are right and I should delete all my mods that people are enjoying including you, and hide under a rock and preach about the virtual shackles that the post industrial era built and is making everyone become a corporate sheep and their idolization of paper - or rocks has driven us to madness. 

[AlejandroGarden]

57 minutes ago, Oz70NYC said:

If there were more people actively contributing to putting out content, there wouldn't be a demand for those that do to put their content behind Patreon. Because given the choice of awesome content uploaded in bulk to the forum, and awesome content put on Patreon...majority of folk would go for the prior, not the later. As it stands now, that doesn't exist. Coupled with the unappreciative nature of those that do leech, offering nothing in the way of positive feedback or even interaction...is how the climate that's created the Patreon issue even started. If you can see that, that's your own short-sighteness.

 

As for "The true concept of community", here's the Merriam-Webster definition of "Community" Scroll down to definition 2B..."Joint ownership or participation". There goes the core concept as it pertains to us...participation. Or the lack there of. Bottom line...lack of participation from people (lurkers and leechers) creates the environment that those that do produce content feel under appreciated for their effort, which leads them to going the Patreon route, where their work is appreciated through monetary compensation. If there were more creators, no one would even bother going to Patreon, because there'd be a steady influx of "free" content. There isn't, because LEECHERS LEECH and don't give back to the "community" of which they take from.

 

And no level of gas-lighting you will ever do changes that fundamental fact. 

interesting because it takes the more generalized concept where it opens up to different interests and therefore to conflicts and not to the primary concept of the same source to which it appeals.

 

 That said, a terrorist who sets off a bomb somewhere for you is also part of the community, because he "participates."

 

Can you explain to me what happened to the collaborators who previously participated for free? Where are they or where did they go?

 

On the other hand, for me the cause is greed and the endless desire for recognition at all costs, even when that means going against the spirit of community.

 

The "leechers" always existed and that if it is a fact therefore cannot be the cause to which it refers.

 

I rely on the first definition of community, it is much more specific where it defines that it is when there is a common interest and therefore "the thing" works.

Don't you want to understand it? Gentlemen .. have a very very good purchase ! ! ! ?

[AlejandroGarden]

34 minutes ago, Mr_Smoke said:

Quizás tengas razón y debería eliminar todas mis modificaciones que la gente disfruta, incluyéndote a ti, y esconderme debajo de una roca y predicar sobre los grilletes virtuales que la era postindustrial construyó y está haciendo que todos se conviertan en ovejas corporativas y su idolatría del papel, o las rocas nos han vuelto locos. 

Maybe if the majority hide under the rock it will help those who correspond as authority to make serious decisions so that a place is what it once was. Meanwhile it is seen that these times and as they are, things are working wonders. or not? .

[AlejandroGarden]

About the so-called leechers

It happens that it is much, much easier to blame them because they have no influence or popularity, they are the perfect scapegoat.

And it is likely that if the truly responsible were seen and blamed with their corresponding degrees, there is a great fear of affecting their own interests while they want this to work, that there is community collaboration, that they be kind, respectful and that, that I I call it a good joke!

want to play to define who deserves this or that mod?

What level of mods do they deserve according to how much they pay you?

Who is worthy of my or your work?

do you want to play that way? Very good !!
I will teach you true exclusivity, I can also do it without even asking for a dollar.

[EJAX]

On 10/6/2020 at 3:56 PM, hdiddy said:

That said I would like to hear from the community on your take.  I have my opinions which I will add in a reply to this post, but I only set this club up as I saw a need I can fill.  And in my opinion the community should be the ones who decide what they want to allow for things that are a matter of opinion.  Call it my American democratic side if you like...just my opinion.

 

That said check the poll and vote (it's anonymous).  I am curious about the Pros and Cons for not allowing or allowing folks to Post links to Patreon. 

 

Lets keep it civil, we all have the same goals here to make increase the community engagement for all TK17 users.

 

I don't see what all the fuss is about? If someone wants to try to get paid for their stolen shit, more power to them! It's what civilization is founded on, right?! I know how to click "NEXT", it's no big deal!

 

Oh, and I'm a leech, BTW.  I have mods, but most of my mods are just mods of you guys' mods. I think it would get pretty friggin' noisy around here if you let people post stuff like THAT willy-nilly. So I don't bother. But you're welcome to my entire hard drive if you REALLY, REALLY want it (I don't know why anyone WOULD).

[EJAX]

On 10/6/2020 at 5:57 PM, boomshanka said:

Lastly: I'll pay the person who replaces TK17, finally, and I'll do so handsomely. 

Only if I can take my entire cast with me!

[kord555]

First thanks for making this poll and to make new home for TK 

 

Second this opinion it not related or replay for the posts above im not replaying anyone it just my major opinion about patreon with TK and with other projects not related to TK

 

does patreon have good advantage does it will make the TK better my answer YES it does 

 

but that dont mean that if you have patreon you post someone else work without there permission and it does not mean you will stop make (( free Stuff for all ))

 

what i mean is for example if your a poser and you make on average  10  free poses each month and someone need a 8 Custom poses for his own project and he pay a (5$)

for them that what i mean by what is the GOOD use of patreon And by the way if he pay and he might he be dont mind that you also post them for free that mean the all the Members got a free 18 poses and same with porting room if you port a free rooms plus a few requested paid ones a 5$ will also drive you to post more free rooms  ..etc

 

so if patreon is not stopping me from making free Constants  plus it drive me to post even more constants and drive others to post more free constants 

 

plus a good animated pose could take 10 hours and port room also take many hours a movie took many hours 

so if a 10$ will make someone stick with his long projects and that good for the site that really good better then having many Noobs (new-people) who just test and try things and fill the site with there stuff and it become very messy with new and uncool  and easy  quick contents and when they learned they just leave after it because there is no drive that make them stick here and plus making anythings in tk really took alot of time

 

that is the good use of patreon 

but if someone use it in bad way the Short answer is no one will pay hem anythings if he is use it in bed greedy way and not welling to share free stuff  and plus the normal  members they are not willing to pay anythings and they just need a free stuff and that also the normal here and everywhere

 

the patreon is good way for someone who spend many hours in this Game to Support hem for his long time and what he offers that it 

 

and about me im with TK since 2013 and im almost a daily active user there but i dont play the game either download contents and i use it just to chat with my 

Friends and i do share poses from time to time and i did poses Requests  , but ofc i dont have patreon either i dont plan to make one also i will not support anyone

who have it becouse i dont play the game but if i do play it OFC i will support and pay a 1$ here and 5$ there if that will save me alot of game time and efforts 

 

thanks for reading 

and if someone want to replay me you better just post your own thoughts instead if doing it since it just my opinion and it not rule  

[uXa]

The thieves guild is complaining about merchants making money off of the guild's "rightfully stolen" goods they then enhanced. Oh the irony. 

 

I'm still wondering why thri.xxx hasn't gone after patreon creators for creating content for tk17 and IP theft. It's an outright ban on thri.xxx's forums for even *mentioning* tk17. Anyways, the more mods the merrier I suppose, and if I could contribute, I would (regarding the lurkers comment). Provide a means and I will help. The last time I tried to use Collatrane's tools, blender 2.81 crashed, and after spending 2 days trying to make it work, I gave up. I refuse to subscribe to $100/mo autodesk for a porn game.