Saadia's Fate

[Ankahet]

What happened to Saadia?

It remains pretty unclear of what actually happens to Saadia after she is hauled off by the Alik'r if you help them instead of her.

 

I am for this to be a small but in-depth mod with discovery, storytelling, and of course some adult flavour to it that describes what happened and is happening to her after being drug back to Hammerfell by the Alik'r and removing the urn from the hall of the dead, to bring her back into the game.

 

This will provide the player with some interesting choices and if all the criteria are met, will result in Saadia being an available follower as well as a few other things.

 

Taking this on currently as my ability for my larger mod is limited at the time being.

 

[Guest]

I recall this discussion back in the day. On the official forums I think it was. Not sure, I forget where I read this. But when a named NPC dies, they get a tombstone with their name on it in the city of their faction. And as I recall, Saadia gets one in Whiterun......She's dead Jim.

[Ankahet]

10 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

I recall this discussion back in the day. On the official forums I think it was. Not sure, I forget where I read this. But when a named NPC dies, they get a tombstone with their name on it in the city of their faction. And as I recall, Saadia gets one in Whiterun......She's dead Jim.

That is true, you can find an urn in the whiterun catacombs after completing the quest. But I am thinking of retconning it a bit to make the quest last longer if that option is chosen. If not then she remains in the Bannered Mare, and might design something else around that.

[Guest]

I'll give you my opinion on Saadia. I use a mod that if you side with her she's available as a follower. I always side with her. Here's why.

 

I really don't care what she did in Hammerfall. I'm in Skyrim. And in Skyrim, crime only applies to the hold you are residing in, in this case, Whiterun, Saadia is a working class resident holding a job and contributing to society. In Whiterun, or anywhere else in Skyrim, this is the lore and the law. OTOH, the Alik'r are running around in a land that is not their own where they have no jurisdiction and no authority and are harassing Skyrim's Redguard residents everywhere they go. They supporting bandits and so IMO are accomplices to their crimes.

 

Their justification in my book, goes out the window with Saadia. Not because she's innocent. She may not be. But because of their respective behaviors within Skyrim. I reject the Alik'r.

 

So I tend not to side with them and probably wouldn't have a use for an investigation. Plus with this particular story, Bethesda has not provided enough info to make a definitive conclusion. No amount of head canon or guesswork can change that. No matter what conclusion you reach, it's the one you want to reach. Because there is no actual innocent vs guilty. It simply doesn't exist.

[Ankahet]

13 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

I'll give you my opinion on Saadia. I use a mod that if you side with her she's available as a follower. I always side with her. Here's why.

 

I really don't care what she did in Hammerfall. I'm in Skyrim. And in Skyrim, crime only applies to the hold you are residing in, in this case, Whiterun, Saadia is a working class resident holding a job and contributing to society. In Whiterun, or anywhere else in Skyrim, this is the lore and the law. OTOH, the Alik'r are running around in a land that is not their own where they have no jurisdiction and no authority and are harassing Skyrim's Redguard residents everywhere they go. They supporting bandits and so IMO are accomplices to their crimes.

 

Their justification in my book, goes out the window with Saadia. Not because she's innocent. She may not be. But because of their respective behaviors within Skyrim. I reject the Alik'r.

 

So I tend not to side with them and probably wouldn't have a use for an investigation. Plus with this particular story, Bethesda has not provided enough info to make a definitive conclusion. No amount of head canon or guesswork can change that. No matter what conclusion you reach, it's the one you want to reach. Because there is no actual innocent vs guilty. It simply doesn't exist.

All of that is also true. I just wanted to provide a slightly longer questline and a few additional areas for people to explore and have fun with.

[Guest]

Are you suggesting that the ending would be conclusive? Meaning in your story, She's guilty or innocent? Or would you leave it the way it is and just identify all the evidence and let the player decide? I like the 2nd. And there are a lot of videos on the topic that you could use for reference to uncover info. Like quested breadcrumbs....so to speak.

 

As for me, I've long since given up on trying to find the truth and concluded, both sides are lying.

 

[Ankahet]

2 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

Are you suggesting that the ending would be conclusive? Meaning in your story, She's guilty or innocent? Or would you leave it the way it is and just identify all the evidence and let the player decide? I like the 2nd. And there are a lot of videos on the topic that you could use for reference to uncover info. Like quested breadcrumbs....so to speak.

 

As for me, I've long since given up on trying to find the truth and concluded, both sides are lying.

 

It would remain inconclusive. I'll leave the original decision in whether to help her or turn her in, then remove the traces of her death, and write a new leg for each option the player can explore.

[Guest]

I think I misunderstood your initial intent. It sounded like you wanted to justify Saadia as a Traitor. However, As a Lore discovery quest, It sounds like it only adds to the game. Pointing out all the Easter eggs that may have been missed by many.

[Ankahet]

11 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

I think I misunderstood your initial intent. It sounded like you wanted to justify Saadia as a Traitor. However, As a Lore discovery quest, It sounds like it only adds to the game. Pointing out all the Easter eggs that may have been missed by many.

Exactly. Just want to add things beyond the normal quest for people to explore and find. They can do as they wish with the information, and react to each side as they like which all would have different outcomes.

[t.ara]

my saadia is always alive...as I found out she is being killed I wasted that quest.

[Ankahet]

14 minutes ago, t.ara said:

my saadia is always alive...as I found out she is being killed I wasted that quest.

Yeah, I was disappointed to find they killed her, so, I aim to provide a more... interesting alternative to death for her xP If you know what I mean xP

[Guest]

Once, I had edited her making her statistically identical to Cicero and used AFT to recruit her as a follower. I mean, she is an assassin after all right?

Then we went into that bandit cave near Rorikstead and well, you get the idea.

[Ankahet]

3 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

Once, I had edited her making her statistically identical to Cicero and used AFT to recruit her as a follower. I mean, she is an assassin after all right?

Then we went into that bandit cave near Rorikstead and well, you get the idea.

Gotta get away some times :3

[karlpaws]

6 hours ago, bishlapped said:

I recall this discussion back in the day. On the official forums I think it was. Not sure, I forget where I read this. But when a named NPC dies, they get a tombstone with their name on it in the city of their faction. And as I recall, Saadia gets one in Whiterun......She's dead Jim.

I think the actual mechanic is not "dead" but "removed from the game" instead. Since she's disabled in a place you cannot retrieve any items from her corpse, the game gives you a way to retrieve anything you might have given her or caused her to have.  I don't think it matters that you cannot, in the vanilla game, give her anything, but that's the mechanic for any NPCs removed from the game.

 

In other cases, they NPCs aren't actually killed/removed but the way to them is, so Keeper Carcette in the Hall of the Vigilant is canonically dead, but mechanically still sandboxes in her cell but the door there is disabled when the outer building static object is replaced with the burned ruin one.

5 hours ago, bishlapped said:

I really don't care what she did in Hammerfall. I'm in Skyrim. And in Skyrim, crime only applies to the hold you are residing in, in this case, Whiterun, Saadia is a working class resident holding a job and contributing to society. In Whiterun, or anywhere else in Skyrim, this is the lore and the law. OTOH, the Alik'r are running around in a land that is not their own where they have no jurisdiction and no authority and are harassing Skyrim's Redguard residents everywhere they go. They supporting bandits and so IMO are accomplices to their crimes.

I've often used that theorycrafting for a reason to leave her in place.  She might have some money (a lot less now that she gave it to me) but she's working like a drudge essentially in exile and if hard manual labor in bad weather isn't a just punishment, it'll do for me.  If I had the option I'd ask Kematu to head back and ask his employers if the survivors would rather she be executed or sentenced to hard labor, cause she's already doing that.  If she's innocent (and I watched a video listing all of the inaccuracies that make it more likely she did what they said.. I think it was a Camelworks one), well life isn't fair and she's lucky she wasn't eaten by a dragon on the way here.

 

[Mez558]

7 hours ago, bishlapped said:

I recall this discussion back in the day. On the official forums I think it was. Not sure, I forget where I read this. But when a named NPC dies, they get a tombstone with their name on it in the city of their faction. And as I recall, Saadia gets one in Whiterun......She's dead Jim.

What Karl said.

This was just a game mechanic.

I've seen several convincing arguements as to why she is actually a war criminal but I guess it will always be one of those things that you will never know if you actually made the right choice.

[Ankahet]

10 minutes ago, Mez558 said:

What Karl said.

This was just a game mechanic.

I've seen several convincing arguements as to why she is actually a war criminal but I guess it will always be one of those things that you will never know if you actually made the right choice.

Yep, who knows? I just wanna have some fun with it :3

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Mez558 said:

What Karl said.

This was just a game mechanic.

I've seen several convincing arguements as to why she is actually a war criminal but I guess it will always be one of those things that you will never know if you actually made the right choice.

And this is my issue. 

In life, there would be a truth out there. Saadia would be either guilty or innocent. But in Skyrim, it never happened, and Bethesda never fills in the gaps. It's not even like you can try to figure it out. You can't You can only conclude what you want. It's just a story with no end.

[karlpaws]

20 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

And this is my issue. 

In life, there would be a truth out there. Saadia would be either guilty or innocent. But in Skyrim, it never happened, and Bethesda never fills in the gaps. It's not even like you can try to figure it out. You can't You can only conclude what you want. It's just a story with no end.

Where did the Dwemer go?

Did Reman V really die in Akavir?

How many disguised Snow Elves are still in hiding? Alyeids?

Were the Aldmer really on Aldmeris or is that just a creation story myth?

 

I think the writers at Bethesda liked to keep some things open ended and mysterious, so the player could make up their mind and tell the story their own way.

[Senturus1208]

First of all: the Alik'r have no jurisdiction in Skyrim and align themselves with criminals. So there's no f*cking way i would help them as guilty as Saadia may be. Period.

 

If you use Nethers Follower Framework you have an option that she may become a follower if you take her side. But that doesn't work everytime. Sometimes the good old console has to take over^^

AND:

You could try FlowerGirls + FG Amorous Adventures and check out the dialogue added by FGAA...

Well... Let's just say my ingame-wife surely asks herself what's hidden behind that locked door in my basement

[Irishredneck]

On 8/17/2020 at 2:18 PM, bishlapped said:

Their justification in my book, goes out the window with Saadia. Not because she's innocent. She may not be. But because of their respective behaviors within Skyrim. I reject the Alik'r.

 

Agree. 100%

 

Therefore, Saadia (or whatever her real name is) get's rescued in my game. She is then forced to work off her debt as a prostitute. Her ass is mine now. Under my protection. And my authority. 

 

[Ankahet]

9 minutes ago, Irishredneck said:

 

Agree. 100%

 

Therefore, Saadia (or whatever her real name is) get's rescued in my game. She is then forced to work off her debt as a prostitute. Her ass is mine now. Under my protection. And my authority. 

 

Bahahaha, I support this 100%

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Irishredneck said:

 

Agree. 100%

 

Therefore, Saadia (or whatever her real name is) get's rescued in my game. She is then forced to work off her debt as a prostitute. Her ass is mine now. Under my protection. And my authority. 

 

HAHA! But, YES! That is exactly correct,

 

Your motivations should be for your own reasons. Because any reason you use that is based on some higher "moral authority" doesn't exist. 

 

"I'll help her because she is innocent."  But, she's not.

"I'll turn her in because she's guilty."  But, she's not.

 

She's neither, Bethesda never wrote the story so it's all 100% head cannon either way you decide. So, if you have use of her, Save her. If you want the reward, turn her in. Either way, you are neither right nor wrong. It's just weather you want her in your game or not.

[RJLbwb]

On 8/17/2020 at 6:25 PM, Mez558 said:

What Karl said.

This was just a game mechanic.

I've seen several convincing arguements as to why she is actually a war criminal but I guess it will always be one of those things that you will never know if you actually made the right choice.

Gopher mentioned in his video Saadia is a character in some obscure Elder Scrolls game were she does what she is accused of.  But that's nonsense anyway since because that Metagamig and none of that is explained in game.  What you see in game is a group of a-holes who are buddies with a cave full of bandits pestering everyone to the point the guards wont let them in town and if Saadia was really an agent of the Thalmor, why isn't she in some town with a heavy Thalmor presence like say Solitude were the Thalmor could protect her?  Remember the Red Guards drove the Thamor out and they want back in, so the Thamor have an interest in keeping a pro-Thamor red guard noble alive.

 

Anyway, the smart play is offer to lead Saadia to them, kill the leader, take is money then go to Saadia and collect the money from her. My in character reasoning is Saadia will put out, these "Super Assassin" bums won't.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RJLbwb said:

Gopher mentioned in his video Saadia is a character in some obscure Elder Scrolls game were she does what she is accused of.  But that's nonsense anyway since because that Metagamig and none of that is explained in game.  What you see in game is a group of a-holes who are buddies with a cave full of bandits pestering everyone to the point the guards wont let them in town and if Saadia was really an agent of the Thalmor, why isn't she in some town with a heavy Thalmor presence like say Solitude were the Thalmor could protect her?  Remember the Red Guards drove the Thamor out and they want back in, so the Thamor have an interest in keeping a pro-Thamor red guard noble alive.

 

Anyway, the smart play is offer to lead Saadia to them, kill the leader, take is money then go to Saadia and collect the money from her. My in character reasoning is Saadia will put out, these "Super Assassin" bums won't.

It's what I have said about her. Theories, Stories, conjecture, Whatever it is someone uses to come to a conclusion, with regard to her guilt or innocence, is always head canon. Because from Bethesda, there is no canon for her story. Official canon is half a story, that is it. You get clues and an open ended mystery. That is the official canon. Anything else, someone made up. 

 

For me, I use a follower mod for her. Complete the quest in her favor and she becomes an assassin type follower, like Cicero.