wip Chaurus Life

[kilroywasalwayshere]

I have a crazy idea.  What if we build a phonetic alphabet out of Chaurus clicks/sounds?  This wouldn't be a means of speech by any means, but it could be used to... disturb the player a bit during the quest.  Say the Chaurus in the hive all go silent for a moment, and then click in harmony something that sounded eerily familiar.  It wouldn't be a clear word, but it might give the impression of a word, or a name.  The PC's name, for example.  

[Seijin8]

9 hours ago, kilroywasalwayshere said:

I have a crazy idea.  What if we build a phonetic alphabet out of Chaurus clicks/sounds?  This wouldn't be a means of speech by any means, but it could be used to... disturb the player a bit during the quest.  Say the Chaurus in the hive all go silent for a moment, and then click in harmony something that sounded eerily familiar.  It wouldn't be a clear word, but it might give the impression of a word, or a name.  The PC's name, for example.  

^ This is an idea I fully endorse.  That would be creepy as hell.

I have no idea how to set something like that up though, but since it is likely to happen in "downtime", it could be fairly script intensive and still be viable.  FO4 manages to figure this out to an extent, so there may be a way to do it.

[Elvorana]

23 hours ago, kilroywasalwayshere said:

I have a crazy idea.  What if we build a phonetic alphabet out of Chaurus clicks/sounds?  This wouldn't be a means of speech by any means, but it could be used to... disturb the player a bit during the quest.  Say the Chaurus in the hive all go silent for a moment, and then click in harmony something that sounded eerily familiar.  It wouldn't be a clear word, but it might give the impression of a word, or a name.  The PC's name, for example.  

Oh hell yeah, that woul be amazing! Though the PC name may be difficult considering just how many names people can come up with, it could be small phrases referencing PC attributes or recent events (Both local and regional). I admit though, the PC name would definitely be the creepiest one. Maybe a poll on most common names? Or just name suggestion thread?

[Seijin8]

4 hours ago, Elvorana said:

Oh hell yeah, that woul be amazing! Though the PC name may be difficult considering just how many names people can come up with, it could be small phrases referencing PC attributes or recent events (Both local and regional). I admit though, the PC name would definitely be the creepiest one. Maybe a poll on most common names? Or just name suggestion thread?

I have no experience working with phonemes, but the name not being phonetic doesn't really hurt here, since the mod could just require the player to submit a phonetically correct version of their name.

 

If they don't add it, then "breeder" could be used.

 

EDIT: Turns out there are 44 sounds I would need to create, which isn't too bad, except that I don't know how to actually make chittering into these noises.  Would likely be a blend of existing chaurus sounds and a modulated voice of some type.

 

For phonetics on the name, the player could be prompted to chose a string of phonetic sounds for their name, probably limited to 4 or 5 syllables.

[Seijin8]

@kilroywasalwayshere

I now have a third monitor set up and a half-painted Primaris Librarian staring at me with hollow, unfinished eyes.

 

Suppose I am back to work on the mod now.  Should know by tomorrow if this insane (beautifully creepy) idea of yours will work.

 

 

[Seijin8]

Would a hive refer to itself as "I" or "we"?

[Seijin8]

Okay, sorry to say I don't think that idea (phonemes strung together as words) will work.  I have extracted phonetic tones and assembled a few words and they just don't sound right at all, and that is without adding the chaurus sounds on top of them.

 

Also have no idea of how to make clicking into a usable phoneme.  I found a few that work alongside R, F, C, etc, but nothing useful works alongside a vowel sound that isn't obviously a bird call or similar sound.  Layering them distorts the wording so much that even knowing what it is supposed to say, I can't extract meaning from it.

 

Now... so that this idea isn't a total wash... I have been able to generate a few sentences using extracts of vanilla Skyrim dialogues remixed with some chaurus noises.  It isn't great yet, but there is a seed of hope there.

[wren888]

23 hours ago, Seijin8 said:

Would a hive refer to itself as "I" or "we"?

Technically, a hive by definition is singular, and should refer to itself as "I." On a deeper level, I also believe it should refer to itself as "I," as the point most make when referring to a hive mind is that there is no individual apart from the whole, only the collective. Some writers use "we." E.g., "We are the borg." However, I consider "I" both more accurate and more aesthetically pleasing for the concept.

[Seijin8]

1 hour ago, wren888 said:

Technically, a hive by definition is singular, and should refer to itself as "I." On a deeper level, I also believe it should refer to itself as "I," as the point most make when referring to a hive mind is that there is no individual apart from the whole, only the collective. Some writers use "we." E.g., "We are the borg." However, I consider "I" both more accurate and more aesthetically pleasing for the concept.

Thanks for the feedback.  I was considering making it "I" when referring to the Tyrants specifically (or other evolved leader forms), but "we" in all other cases.  If there are dominance battles, I can't see them being between the "self", but rather burgeoning concepts of individuality.

 

Also, the lines I was working on for vocalization definitely seemed "better" (I don't know how else to put it) when using "we" and "us".

 

I think it would be best to have a way for the player to differentiate between the hive as a whole (we/us) and individuals.

 

Still very open to having my mind changed though.

[27X]

On 8/20/2019 at 8:19 PM, Seijin8 said:

Would a hive refer to itself as "I" or "we"?

Neither. any sentence of intent or action just needs a subject/object.

[wren888]

17 hours ago, Seijin8 said:

Thanks for the feedback.  I was considering making it "I" when referring to the Tyrants specifically (or other evolved leader forms), but "we" in all other cases.  If there are dominance battles, I can't see them being between the "self", but rather burgeoning concepts of individuality.

 

Also, the lines I was working on for vocalization definitely seemed "better" (I don't know how else to put it) when using "we" and "us".

 

I think it would be best to have a way for the player to differentiate between the hive as a whole (we/us) and individuals.

 

Still very open to having my mind changed though.

Yes. What you're saying makes sense to me.

[sshar22]

Hi,

for low self awareness (example, a cat that sees itself in the mirror thinks it's a different cat) it should be neither I or we, like @27X said

for high self awareness it is an I,

in this modern times the 'WE' is a writer trope to make it sound more alien, in ancient times 'WE' was used in 'pluralis maiestatis' 

 

Cheers

[Seijin8]

25 minutes ago, sshar22 said:

Hi,

for low self awareness (example, a cat that sees itself in the mirror thinks it's a different cat) it should be neither I or we, like @27X said

for high self awareness it is an I,

in this modern times the 'WE' is a writer trope to make it sound more alien, in ancient times 'WE' was used in 'pluralis maiestatis' 

 

Cheers

Thanks for the comment.

 

While all the language/structure/theory convo is interesting, I'm not finding it helpful, so let me take a different approach to this:

 

The chaurus clearly would have a means of communication with one another.  Pheremones is the obvious (and in my mind boring) methodology here.  The "unmodified" player character could not meaningfully interact with this.  Even if they could sense the pheremones, they couldn't emit them without some kind of magic or alchemy, and to be honest, in gameplay terms this sounds even less fun than the existing uninspired dialogue system.

 

If we take the step of deciding that a more direct form of communication will be available, something that adds layers of nuance and dynamics to the hive -- and maybe allows the hive to express itself in terms beyond mere survival needs -- then it needs to be something that 1) works for gameplay, 2) is interesting enough to devote hundreds of hours of my life to developing, and 3) is interesting for players to engage with more than the one time.

• The existing dialogue system would work for this, but in my mind isn't interesting at all.  Just script on a screen without much to back it up.  Simple enough to implement, but not unique or interesting, and based on pop-up UI elements that always take me a bit out of the action.
• There will be a pheremonal interaction system that will use auras and clairvoyance-like effects to allow the PC to receive that data, and maybe some alchemical means to transmit data this way as well.  Still, this is only surface-level.
• I have been working on survival need-based audible communication that the player could understand and somewhat interpret, but this serves only for very basic concepts (hungry, danger, etc).  There is neither the needed nuance to their existing sounds, nor enough depth of vocabulary to make this good for expressing anything more than the basics.
• @kilroywasalwayshere's idea was very cool and very importantly would allow for more personal (deeper, not just survival data) connection, but has several technical problems that render it non-functional.  Even if I devoted the needed hours to constructing it, my initial exploration of the way it would work didn't produce understandable results.  Simply put: the nuance of English goes beyond stringing together some sample sounds.  Tonality and duration of sound, as well at the way there noises blend, lead to this being less than useful at present.
• Of course there is the question of what form any "deeper communication" could take.  If it is just a more personal version of the basic needs, that still isn't all that useful.  What form would planning take? How can chaurus communicate proactive and strategic concepts to one another?  In general, I would say that they don't communicate this at all.  Only the Tyrants/evolved forms are able to think in this way, and they have no need to discuss it, only to send orders.  That is the entire point of the higher evolution layers: to give them a stronger sense of active purpose (and this may be a good reason for Falmer to prevent such evolution).
• Cooperation between Tyrants may be impossible simply because they only have the means to give orders, not to communicate concepts.  If that is the case, then the player could never really work alongside a Tyrant, they could only obey its commands, or deal with the results of failing to obey, possibly taking its place atop the command structure.
• If the player is able to direct or coerce actions, that doesn't really require communication per se, but to be able to influence the decision-making of the Tyrant, or share ideas with it, will require a much more robust method of dialogue.  And if such a method exists, then why don't chaurus use it themselves?  (Maybe they can't, maybe it isn't in their nature, maybe it is inherently unnatural, or maybe they used to do so and the Falmer robbed them of it.)
• Heading farther into territory covered in pages 2-5, if there is a nascent intelligence within a hive (or at least accessible to it), how would that intelligence communicate with the player?  This would need to be on the level of structured dialogue, or at least be of a similar level of complexity and clarity of intent and result (if I had you converse only in six colors, having no idea what the colors represented would render them more frustrating than useful).
• There are complex and alien communication methods in many games.  There may be engine limitations that make many of these un-usable, but there must be some way to accomplish this.
• The most straightforward method (which would still take a ridiculous amount of time to construct and use, but would allow for replayability) would be to connect colors/pheremones to basic concepts, but make the mixing of those concepts into a more robust form of communication.  Each hive (and each playthrough) could reorganize this data so that the player had to go through the process of learning it.  As concepts were unlocked, the chaurus "speech" would change from chitters to simple words.  Eventually the player unlocks the language, and hears words layered atop the other noises.  With this, they can converse more fully and perhaps introduce ideas into the hive's collective/Tyrant's thought process/intelligence's intellectual vocabulary.
• That idea seems like it could work, but mapping out the details of how to set it up is taking a lot of time, and leads to questions like "I or we or the hive or no identifier at all"?

Not meaning to snipe at anyone's contribution, I'm just frustrated with the lack of clear path to progress this.  It is the main thing holding up the interaction layer, as it is the key that unlocks it, and has to be built into the whole system.

 

I can construct it using pheremonal cues, but interacting with them at a higher level will need to be considered so that I don't end up constructing/reconstructing the scripts and structure unnecessarily often.

[wren888]

Your ideas are interesting, Seijin.

 

All of us with pets understand the connection and communication that develops in both directions. Tone and body language play a part in this process. Similarly, I should think that as the player spends time in the chaurus hive, (s)he would become familiar to subtleties overlooked at first. An understanding of meaning beneath the chaurus language clicks and chitters. How to render this in a believable and interesting manner in-game seems to be the sticking point. One possibility is to allow the player, over time, an increasing vocabulary to communicate with the hive, or individuals in it. As it's based on inferential understanding beneath common speech, one might refer to it as "whispers," as opposed to the Dragonborn's other foreign language: shouts. You could display clicks and chitters on the screen followed by the inferred translation in parenthesis, the whisper. The player could respond via a choice on screen of different clicks/chitters and parenthetical (whispered) translations. You could have a "?" after some whispered translations to indicate the player is uncertain of what (s)he is hearing, or uncertain of what he is saying. If you want to get specific, you could attach a percentage chance of correct communication, e.g., "40%?" As time spent with the hive increases, the number of vocabulary choices and interpretations would increase, and the percentage chance of comprehension would increase.

 

Whether you use my suggestion, part of it, or go with something different, I expect you'll come up with something good.

[Seijin8]

10 hours ago, wren888 said:

Your ideas are interesting, Seijin.

 

All of us with pets understand the connection and communication that develops in both directions. Tone and body language play a part in this process. Similarly, I should think that as the player spends time in the chaurus hive, (s)he would become familiar to subtleties overlooked at first. An understanding of meaning beneath the chaurus language clicks and chitters. How to render this in a believable and interesting manner in-game seems to be the sticking point. One possibility is to allow the player, over time, an increasing vocabulary to communicate with the hive, or individuals in it. As it's based on inferential understanding beneath common speech, one might refer to it as "whispers," as opposed to the Dragonborn's other foreign language: shouts. You could display clicks and chitters on the screen followed by the inferred translation in parenthesis, the whisper. The player could respond via a choice on screen of different clicks/chitters and parenthetical (whispered) translations. You could have a "?" after some whispered translations to indicate the player is uncertain of what (s)he is hearing, or uncertain of what he is saying. If you want to get specific, you could attach a percentage chance of correct communication, e.g., "40%?" As time spent with the hive increases, the number of vocabulary choices and interpretations would increase, and the percentage chance of comprehension would increase.

 

Whether you use my suggestion, part of it, or go with something different, I expect you'll come up with something good.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

I like your idea of the "translation in progress" function.  To be clear: I had intended to use a subtitling method mainly for people who were colorblind or non-native English speakers to be able to translate, but otherwise had intended it to take the form of shifting color bands (representing the scent markers, and the colors get better defined over time), and chaurus sounds that have words overlaid, initially a cacophony of three or four conflicting voices talking over one another (more or less representing the player character's confusion over what is being heard) that eventually unify to a single chorus of words with shared meaning (as the PC comes to understand what is being said).  Still, it will need a subtitled mechanism, and your idea gives that its own flavor.  I will have to think on how best to use that.

 

Regarding body language cues, this gets very difficult because chaurus only have a few such gestures available to them.  Their only "interaction" body language is taunting (two forms: "three tail smacks against the ground" or "rearing up screech" notable that both are acoustic expressions), and whatever sex animations have been created.  There isn't anything else to use at present.

 

Behaviors generated by AI package may make them move a certain way, but body language is generally not usable in the way you describe with pets.  Even if the animations existed for these and could be meaningfully utilized, any user with less than 60fps might miss those cues due to factors I can't control.  Any movement-based communication would have a "minimum fidelity" to discern them, and a video resolution/animation engine/fps "barrier" that could unintentionally hide them.

 

Which isn't to say that I wouldn't want to have/use such animations.  Just that creating them is only one hurdle to jump in the process, and the bodily displays would have to be either glaringly obvious, or otherwise communicated along multiple channels.

 

Instead of pure somatic/gestural communication, I can use the light effects and strobing.  At present, these are limited to on/off at varying speeds and intensities, but I can add variations in the form of "rippling" light effects, and potentially lighting from other areas of the body.  That is on the short-term to-do list.

 

I should back up a bit on this:

 

Chaurus have two main "groups" of signals they give:

• short-range signals for small inter-group information and "personal" data such as individual needs.  These consist of short-lived pheremonal "puffs", strobing light effects and sounds in the 750Hz + range.  Any somatic communication would also be here.
• long-range signals for hive-related data, which consists of lingering scent trails, sounds in the 20Hz - 200Hz range and tail slaps.  There are no visual "long-range" forms of communication, either in gestures or lighting.  EDIT: Tyrants may develop a means to break this rule, and would produce a fog-like lighting pulse.

I have the long-range signals basically figured out.  They are simple as they don't have any nuance needed and serve to direct the entire hive as a unit.  The only subtleties here are for the player to discern "older" scent trails or legacy signals that have no immediate relevance or are only for caste-level communications (being able to tell a signal meant only for workers or hunters, and not for the entire group, for instance).

 

It is the short-range signals that will entail the most work.  These are the "meat" of individual communication.  I need to figure out why a chaurus would choose to transmit light data rather than sound, or why it would use both at once (does a certain combination of light/scent/noise have a specific meaning?)  This is especially difficult as the basic movement and "default" chaurus behavior is not structured and because of the way the animation system works, is not always manipulable.  There is a certain amount of "noise" that needs to be looked past or worked around.  Because of how the havok physics work, there are always tail slaps, even when the animation didn't specifically call for one, so a single tail slap or non-rhythmic set of them is just noise.  The constant chittering is just noise.  Event when acting "stealthy", these sounds still occur.

 

So outside the "noise", the lighting and pheremones are the only effects I can use for the short-range communication to have any relevance.  Tail slaps are too prone to miscommunication (due to collision geometry and varying HDT xmls), and acoustics noises would need to be layered atop the existing noises to display meaning, which isn't always going to be noticeable.

 

(Note that I play with no music -- something I know others don't necessarily do.  So a sound that is clear to me, may be lost to many other users.)

 

Anyway, tl;dr version:  There are two "channels" and four "layers" of data chaurus can send.  Some are easy to adjust, others are problematic.  The most important are naturally the toughest to work with and have several restrictions imposed by the game engine and people's play preferences.  Organizing these is time-consuming.

 

[wren888]

I apologize, Seijin. I was unclear. I didn't mean to suggest you could use chaurus body language in-game to convey meaning. As you say, that's impossible with the limited number of chaurus animations available. I was only using the idea of body language as an example of nonverbal communication that you could use as a basis for an overall understanding of non-speech communication. Sorry.

Your scent method of communication is interesting, and you have excellent specific ideas on implementing them. Have you played Witcher 3? It uses visual cues to convey smell, though in a rudimentary form.

 

The only problem I see with using colors to convey meaning is the absence of a learning curve after the first play-through. With the first exposure to light information, the player will have to learn what the colors/patterns of colors mean. However, on subsequent play-throughs, the player will immediately know their meanings. For example, red means anger, yellow means happy, etc. To eliminate that, you could assign colors or patterns of color randomly to various meanings when your mod is installed, so there is a learning curve for the player with every new game.

 

I infer your ideas have more depth than what I am describing, but I hope the concept I'm putting forth is helpful.

[Seijin8]

1 minute ago, wren888 said:

I apologize, Seijin

Don't.  This is all a friendly discussion, and even misunderstandings can lead to useful ideas.

 

2 minutes ago, wren888 said:

The only problem I see with using colors to convey meaning is the absence of a learning curve after the first play-through.

Colors and combinations are determined randomly at game start.  Still has a learning curve

 

(Hell, actually has an un-learning curve too if you get too used to a specific format.  I will leave cheat options in the MCM for assigning specific values to alleviate that if people don't want to struggle through every time.)

 

I'm considering having more nuanced combinations than the existing set can actually define, so that even syntax has to change.  For instance, say "blue" and "red" combined means "danger, protect the eggs" in one playthrough, and the colors change in the next.  Combining those colors may no longer produce the same meaning, either, and mean that *this* hive's vocabulary lacks the needed "terminology" to communicate this idea.

 

Each hive would also have "lingual drift" or dialects of their own.

[wren888]

Excellent.

[kilroywasalwayshere]

   What if instead of building the Chaurus hive voice from the bottom up, like I suggested, we build it from top down?  This way, we start with a normal human voice, and then we destroy it with a few modulations and then throw some clicks and clacks in there for good measure?  This is similar to how most other similar productions are made, except they keep more human in there for people to understand and we want a more foreign hard to make out effect. 

 

   Edit: I'm considering "the top" to be a normal human voice and "the bottom" to be something incomprehensible and otherwise just noise.  I originally suggested building it from the bottom because it was closer to what I had in mind, but after reading through your struggles building it from there I realized that it would be easier to just start at the top and jump all the way down.

[Seijin8]

1 hour ago, kilroywasalwayshere said:

   What if instead of building the Chaurus hive voice from the bottom up, like I suggested, we build it from top down?  This way, we start with a normal human voice, and then we destroy it with a few modulations and then throw some clicks and clacks in there for good measure?  This is similar to how most other similar productions are made, except they keep more human in there for people to understand and we want a more foreign hard to make out effect. 

 

   Edit: I'm considering "the top" to be a normal human voice and "the bottom" to be something incomprehensible and otherwise just noise.  I originally suggested building it from the bottom because it was closer to what I had in mind, but after reading through your struggles building it from there I realized that it would be easier to just start at the top and jump all the way down.

That's actually the approach I took.

 

Getting a "creepy voice" with chaurus elements is not difficult to do, though I tend to use vanilla Skyrim voices for it, and this can limit the vocab a bit.

 

What didn't work at all was the strictly phoneme-based way of doing it.  Even when I could isolate a specific phoneme, and get a string of them together, it still didn't sound right at all, and this was with three syllable words.  Anything more complex just won't work in this way.

 

Again: I can get a voice working, make it sound like many individuals speaking, etc.  I mainly did this by taking the "pillar" phrases from Dragonborn (since everyone speaks generally monotone and says the same things) to get a reference base for the "chorus" to work with.  This has about 80% of the needed phonemes, and enough word samples that I can get it to work well.  Some voices (notably FemaleDarkElf) have such different accentuation to their speech that I can't fit it into the chorus and can't extract good samples, but a combination of (for instance) MaleBrute, FemaleSultry and FemaleCondescending -- each run through a few audio filters to make them slower and less recognizably Skyrim -- worked very well for what limited phrases I generated.

 

Ultimately, it was the phoneme-based approach that failed.  I even grabbed specific phoneme instruction samples for ESL videos, and stringing those together still failed to produce proper sounding words.

 

Now, an option (staying with the phonemes) would be to "attempt" to generate proper sound sets, make them clear enough, and simply say that this is the closest the chaurus vocalizations can get to speech.  Over time, I think the player could learn to decipher the dialect, but we are back in the weeds of "is it worth the time commitment?", and I'm not sold on it yet.

[panthercom]

What tools are you using to attempt to create the voices? I've had good results with using the vocoder built into one of my Korg synthesizers

for combining human voice with other sounds and keeping the phonemes more or less intact. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some

vocoder plugins for Audacity or Reaper.

 

Assuming Chaurus sounds are produced through means other than some sort of vocal tract, such as external body parts rubbing

together, you could give yourself more creative freedom with the creation of voices by assuming that Chaurus' are capable of telepathy, and simply

blend audible clicking with some form of  more conventional sounding speech - through some filters and delay on regular human speech. Having

Chaurus' 'getting inside your head' is also really creepy, and they don't even have to be visible. Imagine a background of quiet ambient noise consisting

of phrases related to breeding/conquest/combat in Chaurus-infested areas. A chorus of Chaurus, if you will; maybe that's where the name came from?

 

 The ability to 'hear' Chaurus thoughts could also be a perk earned after getting bred a few times and surviving.

[Seijin8]

8 hours ago, panthercom said:

What tools are you using to attempt to create the voices?

Skyrim vocal assets run through Audacity.  I have a library of chaurus sounds that can be used for this, but I figure if the voices aren't clear *without* the sound effects, they aren't going to get any better with the clicking added.

 

8 hours ago, panthercom said:

Assuming Chaurus sounds are produced through means other than some sort of vocal tract...

They do have audible screeching, but it is only heard in one instance in Skyrim, and another (similar) instance in Elder Scrolls Legends.

 

The majority of sounds are "chitin on something" chittering noises, which can be generated with their own body (mandibles snapping), or against a surface (generic "scratching", tail thumps against the ground or other objects, digging and eating sounds).  Many of the more pronouced sounds lack any specific idle/animation to visibly generate them, so it is hard to say what these actually are.  Their "breathing" idle noises are scratching sounds with some light "burbling" which could be chemicals they are producing.

 

For variety, I added a few sounds to this set meant to be "internal" clicking, based on wolf spider purring, crow rattle calls, rattlenake rattles and "Predator" rattles.  I have several odd bird calls I may also throw into the mix if I run out of options here, but so far, so good.

 

Anyway, thanks for the ideas on sound development.  I will look into your advice when next I come around to working on this bit.

[WolfoftheWest1]

Hey, so far i am liking what i am hearing about the development of the mod. i know the chaurus don't have much of a reason without the falmer to overtake the surface, except for occassional raids as stated earlier in the discussion, and i know you said you were attempting to make a tick-variant of the Chaurus, and you were definitely on board with mind control. So what if, as the live cycle starts with egg then nymphs, the nymphs made by diseased hunters-bred eggs turn into a sort of parasite nymph that jump and latch onto sentients and attempt to mind control them into breeders. Perhaps whenever a chaurus "speaks" to the character, the parasite releases Dopamine to make the character want to follow the chaurus's orders in order to feel good? after a parasite fully converts a sentient, maybe they fall off and create a caccoon to molt into this Tick-Chaurus to keep their mind controlled breeder fed or defended depending on how many parasites took over the sentient. have those parasites go top side with a "strike force" to bandit camps and latch onto the bandits whenever they yield so they would follow the chaurus. would fulfill a mind control and drug route at least and could start a very basic surface invasion, maybe have the PC find one of these raids and get taken over, then once the PC breeds a stronger type of Chaurus from the chaurus that had sex with them, they are turned into the main breeder for the parasites for a while, then is bred for stronger reapers. once a tyrant that was bred by the PC is made, they start moving for mining towns like Shor's Stone with stronger mind control parasites.

EDIT: at the very least this could work with larger hives, but for smaller hives something like defeat, the researcher option, a willing volunteer like the underground city, would likely be more realistic since you said specialized chaurus are a luxury for larger hives

[Seijin8]

@Hawkhunter347 Thanks for the concept.  It has been previously discussed somewhat, but nothing is yet settled.

 

I will be doing something like this, for sure, though it is not on the short-term list.

 

Something I am struggling with at present is determining just how malleable a chaurus' form should be.  At a certain point, it just becomes "oh look, another kind of chaurus" /yawn.  If there are too many, they cease being interesting.

 

Every form needs to have a deliberate purpose in the hive, but not be monopurpose/overspecialized.  So beyond mind control, what does this form do?  Is it a stage in the life cycle, or a divergent form?  If divergent from the main morphologies, does it have the ability to turn into something else or rejoin the main morphological line?

 

Making chaurus too variable is not desirable.  If you can no longer define what a chaurus actually is, then the concept of a race devolves into meaninglessness.  Further, a race that just craps out fifty variations for whatever may happen is neither efficient nor sensible.

 

Maybe these would arise from some higher evolved form of Tyrant that trades away its own mobility for the capacity to affect things from afar, and uses creatures like this to do it.

 

Alternately, they may not be "chaurus" at all, but rather a symbiotic lifeform related to them that still serves the hive (similar to the "worms" being seen in the more recent animations).  These, too need to be limited in number or it just looks like a nonsensical wild kingdom with chaurus at the center.

 

So I do plan on things like this, but working out the how (both in terms of interaction and lore) is a challenge I am putting off until later.

 

Thanks again for your comments.  They are much appreciated.

 

EDIT: Note that one workaround for the "too many types" is to have specific chaurus hives produce slightly different form expressions, and maybe have special abilities.  In that case, maybe a single hive uses small symbiote ambushers to get their breeders, but most others do not.  In that way some hives may be really unique, but it doesn't dilute the core idea too much.  Still pondering this, obviously.

[WolfoftheWest1]

See, that's sort of the thing. I don't remember if it was you or another person, but someone brought up diseased hunters. my suggestion would be that these mind control nymphs could be brought out by either the researcher option, using alchemy to infect eggs and maybe thats how the researcher is caught by the hive, being connected to the hive via their own specimens or the hive noticing the new types, or the diseased hunters breeding, causing a mutation to further the hive with obedient sentients. Since these are technically an unintended offspring by the hive's standards, the nymph could molt back into that tick type of chaurus that would have been made anyways, thereby still being within the tree. The form would essentially be a regular nymph by Hive standards, but it has a mind control effect that it knows and uses to create more chaurus.

Edit: I keep saying Hive Standards, but as far as we know, they don't really have standards. if the creature furthers the development or sustainment of the hive, they seem to accept whatever comes their way. In any case, thank you for your hard work on such an underdeveloped section of Elder Scrolls, the chaurus deserve a lot more lore behind them but either Bethesda didnt care about them or just felt the more mysterious the better for an underground insect that is herded by blind mer