Euthanasia - would you do it?

[Guest]

When my Prince was stubbed with the blade recently my Ivy and I were very afraid for his life. Thank god the stubbing wound wasn't deep and his life wasn't endangered. He was also brutally and heavily beaten by groups of bullies few times in recent past and he recovered but was in much pain. This morning we talked about the possibility of being heavily injured and going though strong pain and the possibility that he never recovers or he recovers with permanent consequences such as disability. He said he can't imagine living in wheel chair or "tighten" to the bed to the rest of his life. He wish us to euthanize him. My Ivy said she will do it, but I'm undecided. Well, since euthanasia is legal only in 3 countries in Europe: Luxembourg, Belgium and Nederland he wished we'll take him to one of those countries and do it. I studied a lot about this subject; moral and immoral reasons for doing it or not doing it, but I'm still divided in my heart. On one hand I don't want him to suffer and since it was his wish I think I should do it, but, on the other hand, I love him too much and I don't want him die. I would rather have him even as disabled and in pain than have him not at all.

 

Since I live in religious and conservative country (98% Roman Catholic) who insist on life preservation at any cost I would like to hear about your, people from other cultures about your experience and opinion. Thank you.

[Leito86]

Your life, your choice.

[DoctaSax]

My dad already signed papers to that effect: if he's ever no longer able to make that decision for himself and in unbearable pain etc, he wants us to end it. It pretty much means that he relieved us of the responsibility of making that call. I plan to do the same... at some point.

[dharvinia]

Would I do it, with my own hand I am not sure, because I have not been faced with real life situation.

A friend at work though has been going through hell for the last 6 years.   He Grandfather developed dementia, and very slowly the man she knew disappeared and left in its place was this a##hole who constantly hit people and shit and pissed all over the house. 

   She finally found a facility that she could afford, but she has to go into the facility at least twice a day to take care of his needs. This has put a strain of her marriage, and the relationship with her children.

Now, if given the option I am 100% sure she would put him down, if for no other reason than to save her own life.

 

In the case with prince, he has specifically told you his wishes, why would you let him suffer indignities when it is clearly against is will.  Would he not do the same for you if it was your wish??

[foreveraloneguy]

Faced with a painful case of the never-get-overs? You betcha. Same goes for if I'm ever diagnosed with dementia. I've seen what it does to people and to the people that love them. This would be a kindness to everyone. This whole "life is a precious gift and must be preserved at any cost" bullshit is one of the worst things ever foisted on humanity.

[Pauduan]

My dad has a very lethal and incurable cancer. Even if Euthanasia were legal in our country - which it isn't - I would not do it. It's simply my belief that it's not our decision to make. He can refuse treatment any time he likes and we will comply (palliative care only from that point). Everything else is between him and what made him.

[Jazzman]

As long as we are scared shitless of going after the elephants in the room who are responsible for the environmental causes behind the rapidly increasing

rate of painful cancer and make 'em pay? No way, fuck it! It'd just make 'di govament' (i.e. the state pension fund) happy for not having to pay the pension.

Consequently I subscribe to@Pauduan's point of view, the only one that is to be squared with my conscience. Who am I to end another person's life, huh?

[SameOldScum]

Euthanasia should be a fundamental right for everyone to make use of. What is often ignored is that suicide is used as a last resort: those who commit suicide are drawn to it because in their mind there is no other choice. Living as we feel it encompasses everything, from every little pain to every little joy, but for those determined to take their own life joy does not make it in the equation. They either do not see or do not have any other way to escape torment other than to end it permanently. The refusal to acknowledge this fact is what makes most debates on euthanasia stale and repetitive more often than not.
That being said, yes, I am strongly in favour of euthanasia, and I would without a doubt support any attempts at implementing it. If you feel your life isn't worth living, if you don't want to live a cripple, if you don't want a disease to take you apart slowly, then you should be allowed to end your life on your own terms. If you wish for your loved ones or a designated person to euthanise you in the aforementioned cases and you wish to allow it via a written, signed, state-issued piece of paper, you should be allowed to do it.

To those against it because they believe that life is sacred, once again I say this: life is different than simply prolonging your existence. Do you think Stephen Hawkings was having the time of his life in his wheelchair? Do you believe old people with dementia, alzheimer's and the like, slowly losing both their body and their mind consider their life to be sacred? That is not life, that is torment, unending, unrelenting, until the last breath. That is not worth living, it is the antithesis of life.

I strongly believe that people should decide how they want to die, if they can. Choosing to die before you lose yourself, or simply not wanting to live as a cripple or whatnot is a choice you should be allowed to make. After all, why give el cancer the satisfaction, when you can just give it el middle finger?

[Tirloque]

7 hours ago, EvalovesEP said:

. On one hand I don't want him to suffer and since it was his wish I think I should do it, but, on the other hand, I love him too much and I don't want him die. I would rather have him even as disabled and in pain than have him not at all.

 

Since I live in religious and conservative country (98% Roman Catholic) who insist on life preservation at any cost I would like to hear about your, people from other cultures about your experience and opinion. Thank you.

For my part, I think it's not the humans' place to decide over the life or death of his/her siblings. Not to mention the slippery side of it :

 

— eased suicide for depressive people, that would see things differently once not depressed anymore. (as Rhasyel said)

— eased family maneuvers behind the curtain to get rid of an ancestor taking too long to die. Sometimes not by the will of the concerned person. And sadly, legal or not, this already happens.

 

So I don't think it's the job of a doctor to kill, and my position is Paudan's one. Now, as he wrote, there is a difference between not killing, and "searching to preserve life at all cost". Even if most countries do not allow active killing, they do allow however to stop any treatment, thus not lengthening more than necessary a life considered as meaningless by his/her owner. Btw I think it's also the position of the Roman Catholic, I don't think they force you to attempt a treatment if you don't want to.

 

However, I think one is free to do what he wants of his own life. Just do it yourself, and don't force the others into a place and a system that is not theirs to be in, that's all.

[Jazzman]

1 hour ago, TheWhite said:

My Joey says yes and since my Pam went to the shop yesterday I'm gonna say yes too.

Difficult to decipher your cryptic information, but I'll try:

 

Bon voyage! Maybe we'll meet again one day in the afterlife. Just watch out for a good looking worm...

There, said it! 

 

[SameOldScum]

26 minutes ago, Tirloque said:

For my part, I think it's not the humans' place to decide over the life or death of his/her siblings. Not to mention the slippery side of it :

 

1) eased suicide for depressive people, that would see things differently once not depressed anymore. (as Rhasyel said)

2) eased family maneuvers behind the curtain to get rid of an ancestor taking too long to die. Sometimes not by the will of the concerned person. And sadly, legal or not, this already happens.

1) Except that while you probably can't get completely rid of depression, you can deal with it. It is hard, you need help and a positive environment, but you can fight it. You can't fight dementia, you can't fight a shattered spine, or any kind of degenerative disease or a rare disease that leaves you no hope and no way out. We have hotlines for suicidal people, support groups, medicines, therapy, and while it isn't always successful, at least they're there, and more than one life has benefited from them Some choose not to make us of them, but they exist, and they can work. But if you're bound to a wheelchair, strapped to a bed able only to talk with a computerized voice, or afflicted with a disease that can't be treated or cured today and that will inevitably lead you to a slow, agonizing death or to the loss of your identity, then there is nothing and no one that can save you. Why endure that kind of torment? What could you possibly get from that? What are the pros and cons of living like that?

 

2) Aside from the fact that it's a very cynical outlook on life, I'd like to point out that if euthanasia were to be legalized, there would be rigorous and extremely tight requirements. Are there unscrupolous doctors who'd happily turn a blind eye and act like the psychos that they are? Of course. Are there amoral fucks that just can't wait for the old man to kick the bucket? Absolutely. But that's all they are: psychopaths, criminals, and as such they will be tried and imprisoned. With or without legal euthanasia, this is still illegal, and when they're found they're treated like the pieces of shit they are. Talking about slippery sides is pointless: why not make the same example with cars? They're supposed to take you from one place to another, but how can you be sure there won't be any dumb cunts that will just ram one into a building? Maybe we should get rid of them. Or better yet, why not talk about condoms? How can you be sure there won't be any dumb fuck that won't just poke a hole in it? You see, there will always be the fuckup, there will always be a sociopath in any given context. But why should we let the worst of us stop progress? That is no way to let society march on. If we had used that kind of logic, we'd still be banging rocks together to make fire, but be wary of the slippery side: someone might decide to torch their neighbours.

[Jazzman]

@2dk2c

There's a fundamental psychological difference b/t watching a heartbreaking scene and being part of it. The latter makes any association with a role other than the one one is playing on site impossible. Now ask yourself what role a standard viewer of such a clip almost instinctively adopts and why he usually wants to make it stop 'cause it's the last thing on earth he himself ever wants to endure...  Bingo!

[Guest]

 

I completely agree with @Rhasyel and @dharvinia As for you @Tirloque I would do it for you as my friend if you ask me. As for @TheWhite I would do it wilth pure pleasure covering all expenses even for the funeral and will cover plane, train, boat,  bus tickets to her friends and relatives to come and rejoice pardon, to moan ..... I always mix those two words.

[Tirloque]

2 hours ago, Rhasyel said:

1) Except that while you probably can't get completely rid of depression, you can deal with it. It is hard, you need help and a positive environment, but you can fight it.

Which is why I mention it as one of the problems, as while being deep down in it euthanasia might be tempting for this population.

 

2 hours ago, Rhasyel said:

 You can't fight dementia, you can't fight a shattered spine, or any kind of degenerative disease or a rare disease that leaves you no hope and no way out. We have hotlines for suicidal people, support groups, medicines, therapy, and while it isn't always successful, at least they're there, and more than one life has benefited from them Some choose not to make us of them, but they exist, and they can work. But if you're bound to a wheelchair, strapped to a bed able only to talk with a computerized voice, or afflicted with a disease that can't be treated or cured today and that will inevitably lead you to a slow, agonizing death or to the loss of your identity, then there is nothing and no one that can save you. Why endure that kind of torment? What could you possibly get from that? What are the pros and cons of living like that?

Well it's the same thing than for trisomic people. It appears, that even though their are disabled, they get used to it, and can in fact live a quite happy life despite of it (even though it's still something terrible for a family, don't make me say what I didn't). Same goes for paraplegic people, all of them they won't necessarily see their life as unworthy after some time.

Now if you're tetraplegic, or have a degenerative disease that will eventually disable all hope of relational life, that's a different case. Those illnesses, most of the time would end up being lethal anyway, but apart from dementia (where you do forget your condition eventually), it comes down to the way we see life, and the way we see our legitimacy dealing with it. In other words, to beliefs and principles, wether they are religious or not.

 

In that conditions, considering the remaining duration of life as deemed too difficult to be worth, there are two additional points to be considered :

• Are there medical treatments to easen that condition ? Pain and breathlessness are the two main issues in terminal cancer, but we have relatively efficient treatments to deal with both until the very end. So palliative care, done without the intent to prolong life are an answer in some cases.

 

• Take the question on the other side : do you wanna do the dirty job ? Do you want to be the one injecting that lethal dose of curare ? If it's the same feeling than having that blood and flesh mixture getting aspired from the womb of aborting woman, do you want to be the one doing the effective kill ? Would you think are legitimate to do it, and to you think it's the normal intended purpose of a medical caregiver ?

Personally, I don't. ?

2 hours ago, Rhasyel said:

 Talking about slippery sides is pointless: why not make the same example with cars? They're supposed to take you from one place to another, but how can you be sure there won't be any dumb cunts that will just ram one into a building? Maybe we should get rid of them. (...) But why should we let the worst of us stop progress?  

Because in the medical domain, people are supposed to abide by one principle : assess pros and cons, every time, as good as possible. If there are more cons than pros to "progress", then said technology should be deemed as unworthy and avoided.

 

Are cars more beneficial than hurtful ? Well, considering it's an essential part of the professional life (if not the whole thing for transporters) of a great proportion of people, and that there are risks regardless of transportation mode, my answer would be yes, despite the ever decreasing risk of lethal accident.

 

Let's take another example : some people, when afflicted, do whine so constantly that it became easier to use progress to sedate them : using benzodiazepines to make them sleep, to sooth their anxiety, antidepressors to lessen that constant whining. So much that it turns out that now, those medications are suspected of causing the dementia you're dreading so much. And as those treatments induce withdrawal, those people are now addicted, and most of the time can't stop them. Was progress really worth it in that case ?

 

If that kind of question had been asked by uncorrupted professionals and politicians, we wouldn't have periodic scandals such as Mediator/Benfluorex, or rofecoxib, and so on. But it wasn't, at least not before billions of dollars of benefit where made with those. So, do you want to give those same corrupted/ignorant people a full credit to enable "progress" without questions ?

 

I don't.

 

Letting corrupted politicians ask people about domains they know little about is already bad enough, bypassing that step altogether would only worsen things.

 

 

 

[Tirloque]

1 hour ago, Elf Prince said:

I completely agree with @Rhasyel and @dharvinia As for you @Tirloque I would do it for you as my friend if you ask me. As for @TheWhite I would do it wilth pure pleasure covering all expenses even for the funeral and will cover plane, train, boat,  bus tickets to her friends and relatives to come and rejoice pardon, to moan ..... I always mix those two words.

 

Come-on, she certainly has good sides as well.

[Di3sIrae]

Wow, Is it that bad? Are you okay Prince?

 

As for the question, yes, i would. Euthanasia for me is giving a painless death to someone suffering from great pain or being greatly injuried as not being able to function like a normal human anymore.

So, in the case of someone living in a wheelchair, it doesn't apply. If a person enters in a comatose/vegetative state and have no way of coming out of it, yes, it is doable.

People suffering a great pain with no way of coming out of it, not being able to get out of bed and needing a doctor 24/7 on it's side... Add to it that the person don't have much more time of life? Yes.

Dementia is a sensible case. In a state of non return, i guess it goes for the situation. In some cases, i guess it is applicable. I would HATE to cause trouble for the people i love when i get old. So, even not being able to give a cohesive answer, and not even understanding what is happening anymore, my soul would be grateful for being released.

 

I know it is different, but see. I had a dog. He suffered his entire life from epilepsy. When he got old, the drug we were giving him was not making much effect anymore. He entered in a state where he could not walk or hold his necessities anymore, and it was clear that he was in great pain.
Sometimes i would go, and lay down with him in the middle of the night (because he would start whining 2am), and then he would go quiet, because i was there. He was always soaked by his own urine and was clearly in disconfort by his state.

We decided to sacrifice him, not because we are going through a hard time taking care of him, but to alleviate his pain.

He died sleeping.

 

My mother had an aneurysm, and i was alone in the house with her the moment it happened. I acted quick, turned her to her side so she wouldn't choke with his own vomit, and called the ambulance. 2 months after, she was out of the hospital and now she is as good as she can be.
But if i was not there at the moment, the next person would only be home at 6pm, and it was 9am.

Maybe she would have died there if i had already left to go to work.

Maybe we would find her alive, but the consequences would be great and maybe she would have several consequences.

If i was to find her, 2 months after, still in bed and without conscience, breathing through machines or maybe only babbling incoherent things... If it was legal, i would certaintly opt for euthanasia. You get a serious damage to the brain, there is a chance that the 'human' start to mean nothing anymore.

Life is very important. We must care for it while we have it.
But maybe, being alive is not the same as having a heart pumping and lungs breathing.

 

We know nothing about life, and it is up to us to decide things when time comes.
 

(maybe in a near future when the research of stem cells have reached a new level where we can replace damaged tissues with new ones and make the body regererate itself, Euthanasia may not be a thing anymore)

[Jazzman]

As a life giver (that's what a mother is) I don't like the death cult that spreads like a virus in the Western world. It's a bad omen for the things to come, a fuckin' bad one.

Makes me wonder whether there are rumors of at least one age-old billionaire that has ever begged to get removed from the equation, or is it indeed just the privilege of us so-called expendables with low up to medium medical care?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Di3sIrae said:

Wow, Is it that bad? Are you okay Prince?

...

 

- no, no, I fine, thanks for asking.  

I fully recovered and my stub wound doesn't hurt me. I had a simple conversation with my witches this morning about "what if...". I said that if I ever become  invalid chained to the wheel chair or to the bed I want them to euthanize me. I don't want to spend our money on wasting my lost life. It's too expensive and no one has benefits from it but troubles and problems.

[Di3sIrae]

54 minutes ago, Elf Prince said:

 

- no, no, I fine, thanks for asking.  

I fully recovered and my stub wound doesn't hurt me. I had a simple conversation with my witches this morning about "what if...". I said that if I ever become  invalid chained to the wheel chair or to the bed I want them to euthanize me. I don't want to spend our money on wasting my lost life. It's too expensive and no one has benefits from it but troubles and problems.

Glad that you're ok then, i don't know if it's that valid, but take care!

But hey, we have a strong will. When these kind of events happen, and may this not be your case, we adapt and find a new way to do things. To enjoy life. As far as it isn't that bad, ther's always a way. I think that this kind of treatment should only be valid in extreme cases.

Life's precious, anyway.

 

(Ivy, Eva and Prince is a threesome couple, is that it? Are you, like, 'married' or living together with each other? I think everyone gets confused about that haha)

[Tirloque]

24 minutes ago, Di3sIrae said:

Life's precious, anyway.

On this at least I do fully agree.
 

Now even if ultimately I don't agree with Rhasyel, Prince, and you I just wanted to underline the fact that I do respect your opinions and arguments on the topic.

[Guest]

I have no qualms of killing people and I've been taken to the point of killing someone twice before for things far unrelated, while having technically died once myself at the very least. I have absolutely no problem with Euthanasia either, and my living will even states that between living as a vegetable versus not living, then I am to be killed immediately, and I also have a Do Not Resuscitate order. Any doctor that even thinks about overriding my living will, will in fact find himself out of a job if not riddled with depth for being sued to oblivion. No ifs or buts to it.

[Di3sIrae]

2 hours ago, Tirloque said:

On this at least I do fully agree.
 

Now even if ultimately I don't agree with Rhasyel, Prince, and you I just wanted to underline the fact that I do respect your opinions and arguments on the topic.

Sometimes talking about these delicate subjects we can have very distinctive sides because of very simple things. I do evaluate life a lot, in more ways than just it being a "living organism", but about soul and stuff like that. I just think that if you can't actually "live", "enjoy life", let's say, maybe it doesn't matter much anymore.

Maybe i'm just a bit cold. People already told me that. But nevertheless, i still agree and find it very good that a lot of people do see the importance of life. Everyone have it's own view of the world, anyway

"Now even if ultimately I don't agree with Rhasyel, Prince, and you I just wanted to underline the fact that I do respect your opinions and arguments on the topic. "

 

This is what is most important!

[Guest]

Although I love my Prince with all my being I disagree with him in this matter. @Tirloque, @Jazzman and few others stressed out very good points. Life is too precious. My Prince is too precious to me so that I will euthanize him. I can't do it.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Di3sIrae said:

Glad that you're ok then, i don't know if it's that valid, but take care!

But hey, we have a strong will. When these kind of events happen, and may this not be your case, we adapt and find a new way to do things. To enjoy life. As far as it isn't that bad, ther's always a way. I think that this kind of treatment should only be valid in extreme cases.

Life's precious, anyway.

 

(Ivy, Eva and Prince is a threesome couple, is that it? Are you, like, 'married' or living together with each other? I think everyone gets confused about that haha)

> Yes, we are married and we are living in love triangle. If anyone is interesting about us, they always can visit my profile and read my "Diaries of love triangle" blog.

[SameOldScum]

18 hours ago, Tirloque said:

Which is why I mention it as one of the problems, as while being deep down in it euthanasia might be tempting for this population. [..]

 

I understand your point of view, although I'm not sure I share it. You made some good points, but I must still respectfully disagree with them. We simply do not see the matter from the same perspective. As I said, I mean it with all due respect, and by no means I mean to ridicule or belittle your statements.