What does Wrye Bash actually do?

[Sickotik Mods]

I've been using Wrye Bash for a while now. I've watched a billion tutorials on it. But no one ever said what it's ACTUALLY doing.

I know it's allowing you to go over the 255 limit by patching ESP's into itself but what is it actually doing?

For example. I spend atleast 3 hours EACH TIME MY GAME CRASHES, in SSEedit, making manual "carry overs" to my leveled lists. I.E. one clothing mod overwrites another, removing its leveled list from the game. So I drag those overwritten items over into my patch, essentially making it so that ALL items from ALL mods, show up in my leveled lists. As you can imagine, this takes FOREVER...
I wanted to know if that's what Wrye Bash was doing automatically. But there's no info on what WB is actually doing, so I've just been doing it manually for 5 years.

Does anyone know 100%? Because I'd REALLY like to stop manually merging leveled lists. But I also don't want to leave it up to some program that may NOT put certain items in my leveled lists.

For anyone who doesn't understand what I'm talking about. I broke it down Barney style with a picture for you.

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

http://wiki.step-project.com/Guide:Wrye_Bash

 

I don't think wyrebash lets you go over 255.To do that you need merge plugins .I think it basically is a patcher although a few people, arthmoor is an example use it as a mod organizer/game launcher.

That is just my opinion if someone else knows bettert they can have at it.

[Sickotik Mods]

16 minutes ago, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

http://wiki.step-project.com/Guide:Wrye_Bash

 

I don't think wyrebash lets you go over 255.To do that you need merge plugins .I think it basically is a patcher although a few people, arthmoor is an example use it as a mod organizer/game launcher.

That is just my opinion if someone else knows bettert they can have at it.

Wrye Bash does let you merge and go above 255. But I really want to know how it patches leveled lists.

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

I was wrong you were right about the limit. However I would use merge plugins over wyrebash if I had more than 255.

 

https://wrye-bash.github.io/docs/Wrye Bash General Readme.html

 

[Sickotik Mods]

1 hour ago, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

I was wrong you were right about the limit. However I would use merge plugins over wyrebash if I had more than 255.

 

https://wrye-bash.github.io/docs/Wrye Bash General Readme.html

 

lol, yea I agree with you. Use Merge Plugins for that. But I just wanna know how Wrye Bash does leveled lists. 

[Grey Cloud]

I have a basic grasp of what a levelled list is. What I don't have is any idea why WB, or anything else, needs to diddle with them. I have never used WB as I've never felt the need.

Spending 3 hours or 3 minutes in TESVEdit every time the game crashes? My game doesn't crash that often but when it does I just jump back in from a save. I don't have to reconfibulate anything.

Is what you are talking about the same as a bashed patch? 

[Captain Cobra]

2 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

What I don't have is any idea why WB, or anything else, needs to diddle with them.

 Bashed patches let you merge leveled list changes together.

[Grey Cloud]

22 minutes ago, Captain Cobra said:

 Bashed patches let you merge leveled list changes together.

That doesn't answer my questions. Why do level list changes have to be merged? Why are level lists being changed? Is a bashed patch the same thing as the OP is talking about?

[KoolHndLuke]

21 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Why do level list changes have to be merged?

For the same reason that all other conflicting mods need a merged patch- if they can be. Two mods making changes to the same records will conflict. For instance, say I have one mod that adds new axes to the leveled lists. Then I have another mod that adds new swords to the leveled lists. The "rule of one" dictates that the last mod making changes to the leveled list records "wins". Thus, you need a bashed patch to include changes from both mods.  Wryebash just handles leveled lists better than a merged patch from x-edit- according to Gamer Poets. As to why it does, I couldn't say.

[Grey Cloud]

4 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

For the same reason that all other conflicting mods need to be merged-

And what reason is that?

Call me old-fashioned but I can't get my head around having this/these patch/es and having to spend several hours fucking about after a crash being a good thing as opposed to my way of not having a patch or patches and just jumping back into the game after a crash.

[KoolHndLuke]

10 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

And what reason is that?

I tried to go back and explain it better. Essentially, you need patches not just to resolve conflicts, but, to make every mods changes show in game- if possible- and for stability. Adjusting your load order will only get you so far.

[Sickotik Mods]

I spent 20 minutes writing this in-depth response on my phone only to have it die on the last paragraph. Hate when that happens.

So to answer my own question, I took my bashed patch into TESVedit to see what it was actually doing. And it turns out that yes, it is taking items from MOST of the mods leveled lists, and combining them.
I still have to pre-emptively carry over certain mods into the leveled list that bashes patch doesn't grab. Like Daedric Cloaks. Those never show up in my bashed Patch, so I have to do it manually. 

As far as Grey Cloud, if your load order isn't correct, you'll get CTD's, bashed patch or any patch or not. That's something I still constantly battle with. It would be nice to have a MEGA list of mods in their proper load order but, since everyones is different, it's hard to get that. And no matter what forums I go to, everyone has a different idea of where things go. I try to use the persons load order who sounds like they know what they're talking about the most as a general load order by category. Then I use my own knowledge of what mods do and rearrange them into the order I think they should be. After that I run LOOT and it completely scatters my load order into the wind, which really pisses me off because with the amount of Sexlab mods I use, I know LOOT is fucking my shit up. But I let it do it's thing because atleast the game doesn't CTD right away. But then it does hours into the game. Usually during heavily scripted scenes. 

That's when I go back, check my load order for hours. Maybe remove a mod or two. Delete my bashed patch and personal patches and merged patch. And redo all those from the ground up. Hoping I'll catch the conflict. It's a fucking nightmare. I spend 99% of my time with Skyrim doing this. I'm down to my "MUST HAVE MODS" so at this point, I won't remove anything. I just have to keep learning about scripts so I can eventually fix the problem. Because I still get CTD's like I said. 

I wish there was a way to see conflicting Scripts, like you can with records in TESVedit/SSEedit. Or even a log that would tell you what is being called up in the records or scripts when there is a crash. Obviously the papyrus log is useless for finding the cause for crashes. Atleast in my experience. It's helped me remove bad mods but that's about it.

[KoolHndLuke]

33 minutes ago, Sickotik Mods said:

I wish there was a way to see conflicting Scripts, like you can with records in TESVedit/SSEedit. Or even a log that would tell you what is being called up in the records or scripts when there is a crash. Obviously the papyrus log is useless for finding the cause for crashes. Atleast in my experience. It's helped me remove bad mods but that's about it.

Yeah, there is no way to see some conflicts at all. Sometimes I can catch which mods will conflict by reading several pages of posts on a mod page. Honestly, I couldn't really give you a solid formula for getting your particular mod list stable because I barely know how to keep mine that way.

[Grey Cloud]

53 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I tried to go back and explain it better. Essentially, you need patches not just to resolve conflicts, but, to make every mods changes show in game- if possible- and for stability. Adjusting your load order will only get you so far.

Okay, I can sort of see where you are coming from. I know from various other threads that you do stuff to your game that is well beyond what I do, or am capable of doing, to mine. So I can see that you, and those like you, may have need for all this bashed patch malarchy.

In 3 years or so of playing modded Skyrim I have never felt the need.

Another point I would make is that you and Sickotic seem to be talking about doing this for a specific reason whereas I am used to seeing posters saying 'create a bashed patch' as if it was some sort of panacea.

[Grey Cloud]

Sickotic.

You seem to be obsessed with load orders. Yes, the load order is important and yes, a bad one will screw your game but there are other things which will do that also. I don't have a problem with LOOT sorting my mods. I am currently running with about 180* plug-ins including 6 (?) female NPC replacers which have about 10 esps. The only thing I have done manually is fix some (4 or 5) of these esps in a specific order as LOOT was struggling. I don't bother arranging plug-ins in group.

*180-190 mods.

 

My game is stable even though I keep adding and removing mods in mid-game.  How many mods/plug-ins do you run and how often do you get CTDs?

[Grey Cloud]

What do you guys think of this guy:

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/84559-mods-load-order-what-am-i-doing-wrong/

 

If it works I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

Personally I prefer just playing the game.

 

[Sickotik Mods]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

Sickotic.

You seem to be obsessed with load orders. Yes, the load order is important and yes, a bad one will screw your game but there are other things which will do that also. I don't have a problem with LOOT sorting my mods. I am currently running with about 180* plug-ins including 6 (?) female NPC replacers which have about 10 esps. The only thing I have done manually is fix some (4 or 5) of these esps in a specific order as LOOT was struggling. I don't bother arranging plug-ins in group.

*180-190 mods.

 

My game is stable even though I keep adding and removing mods in mid-game.  How many mods/plug-ins do you run and how often do you get CTDs?

I’m running I think around 250 esps. About 350 mods though. Load order is massively important, believe me. You’re somehow getting lucky. Or I’m picking shitty mods. Of course load order is only half the battle, but it’s the first half of the battle. 

The problem with me is how many script heavy mods I use. And when I CTD I don’t just reload and keep going. No matter how far into my game I am, I delete all my saves and start trying to resolve my issue. I’ve been 200 hours into a game when it became unplayable. I never want that to happen again.

if you can get Skyrim to run modded without patching, then you’re awesome. Do you. I wish my game would do that.

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, Sickotik Mods said:

You’re somehow getting lucky. Or I’m picking shitty mods.

I'm a retired IT tech so I can do stuff 'by the book' or I can 'wing it'. I know if I'm being lazy or doing something which will end in tears. To me everything in life is a trade-off; how much effort do I want to invest in something. Or, put another way, is the game worth the candle? I put a lot of time and effort into learning about modding Skyrim when I started. I know my pc hardware (I built the machine). I don't push the machine or the game to its limits and I don't have a mountain of mods which need constant micro-managing.

On the tech support threads here on LL you see load orders with a zillion armour mods installed; a zillion player homes; a zillion followers; a zillion big quest mods; a zillion weather mods and the posters all want to know why their game crashes. Why have so many of each installed in the same game?

 

In short, luck doesn't come into it with me. Whether you are picking shitty mods is your call. One man's shit mod is another man's must have mod.

[SmedleyDButler]

On a similar subject, Has anyone had any substantial experience with Mator Smash yet? Supposedly it's a massive upgrade which is able of patching conflicts between way more record types than just levelled lists, but I have no idea what criteria or resolution methods it uses and if there are any things you shouldn't let it try and resolve.

 

I'm also wondering just how useful the expanded features really are? For example, if I want EEO's facial morphs to apply universally to mer, EEO needs a patch for every mod which adds a unique mer character to the game. Would Mator smash be able to replace those patches? Would it be able to create patches between EEO and mods which do not have an EEO patch, like Bruma?

 

What about other things like cell records? I can't imagine that Mator Smash has a way to resolve conflicts where two buildings occupy the same spot. What can and can't it do?

 

[KoolHndLuke]

3 hours ago, SmedleyDButler said:

I can't imagine that Mator Smash has a way to resolve conflicts where two buildings occupy the same spot.

I tend to just place mods that change a smaller space in a cell or world-space lower in my mod list (higher priority) than mods that change much more. Like Skyrim Floral overhaul, then JK's Whiterun, followed by a mod that changes Breezehome and a few of the nav-meshes. I don't think there is any way to merge changes like that- you have to let one win over the others. Load order tweaking is the best way I've found in those cases.

[Sickotik Mods]

5 hours ago, SmedleyDButler said:

On a similar subject, Has anyone had any substantial experience with Mator Smash yet? Supposedly it's a massive upgrade which is able of patching conflicts between way more record types than just levelled lists, but I have no idea what criteria or resolution methods it uses and if there are any things you shouldn't let it try and resolve.

 

I'm also wondering just how useful the expanded features really are? For example, if I want EEO's facial morphs to apply universally to mer, EEO needs a patch for every mod which adds a unique mer character to the game. Would Mator smash be able to replace those patches? Would it be able to create patches between EEO and mods which do not have an EEO patch, like Bruma?

 

What about other things like cell records? I can't imagine that Mator Smash has a way to resolve conflicts where two buildings occupy the same spot. What can and can't it do?

 

Yea I saw something about that. Definitely worth checking out. You’ve peaked my interests now.

[SmedleyDButler]

4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I tend to just place mods that change a smaller space in a cell or world-space lower in my mod list (higher priority) than mods that change much more. Like Skyrim Floral overhaul, then JK's Whiterun, followed by a mod that changes Breezehome and a few of the nav-meshes. I don't think there is any way to merge changes like that- you have to let one win over the others. Load order tweaking is the best way I've found in those cases.

Right. That's what I understand as the way it works now.

 

What I'm saying is that the maker of Mator Smash claims it can resolve conflicts for dozens of record types, not just levelled lists. Obviously there's some things like locations of items and buildings in cells which an auto-patcher like that wouldn't be able to resolve. But it's not clear to me what it CAN resolve? How powerful is it? What sort of hand-made patches can it replace?