For some reason most of the images steadfastly refuse to load, will try later. As for those I can see.

Isn't that an awful lot of high grass and plants at the Whiterun marketplace? Especially around the well? That's certainly a high traffic area, one would expect everything but the most recessed grasses and mosses to have been trampled into nothing long ago.

Also, why Dirt & Blood? I never felt that mod made any sense whatsoever. One can of course argue that it's a fantasy game, so differs from history in that regard. Though if that's not the intent, people in the medieval age were a lot more conscious of cleanliness and body grooming, what the clueless twats in Hollywood made people believe. This is especially true for the Vikings. Admittedly, they did not enjoy our modern days amenities and often had jobs that involved getting dirty, but they would certainly got cleaned up somewhat before heading to the Tavern/Temple/bed.

53 minutes ago, Talesien said:

For some reason most of the images steadfastly refuse to load, will try later. As for those I can see.

I'm sorry to hear that - I just double checked and I was able to see the images OK. Hopefully in the future the site will behave for you better.

53 minutes ago, Talesien said:

Isn't that an awful lot of high grass and plants at the Whiterun marketplace? Especially around the well? That's certainly a high traffic area, one would expect everything but the most recessed grasses and mosses to have been trampled into nothing long ago.

Yeah, I touch on this in the blog further down, its a bug caused by Dyndolod. I ended up fixing it using a Synthesis patcher to restore a flag in the Top-level Cell Data that Dyndolod has (I assume unintentionally) removed.

53 minutes ago, Talesien said:

Also, why Dirt & Blood? I never felt that mod made any sense whatsoever. One can of course argue that it's a fantasy game, so differs from history in that regard. Though if that's not the intent, people in the medieval age were a lot more conscious of cleanliness and body grooming, what the clueless twats in Hollywood made people believe. This is especially true for the Vikings. Admittedly, they did not enjoy our modern days amenities and often had jobs that involved getting dirty, but they would certainly got cleaned up somewhat before heading to the Tavern/Temple/bed.

I believe D&B only preemptively applies dirt to NPCs who work in "dirty" professions or who are on the bandit faction. Otherwise, dirt only accumulates on the player (and maybe followers, I don't remember) and can be cleaned off. I do agree with you that it occasionally still looks off, such as if Blacksmith goes to the temple without washing up, but all in all I like the functions of the mod enough to not squint at it too intensely.

It also has some interface with Sexlab for cleaning up after messy sex.

Vor 11 Stunden sagte Talesien:

Aus irgendeinem Grund weigern sich die meisten Bilder standhaft, zu laden. Ich werde es später versuchen. Was die betrifft, die ich sehen kann.

Ist das nicht eine Menge hohes Gras und Pflanzen auf dem Marktplatz von Whiterun? Besonders rund um den Brunnen? Das ist auf jeden Fall ein stark frequentierter Bereich, man würde erwarten, dass bis auf die tiefsten Gräser und Moose alles längst in Nichts getreten ist.

Und warum Dirt & Blood? Ich hatte nie das Gefühl, dass dieser Mod irgendeinen Sinn ergibt. Man kann natürlich argumentieren, dass es ein Fantasy-Spiel ist und sich in dieser Hinsicht von der Geschichte unterscheidet. Obwohl das nicht die Absicht ist, waren die Menschen im Mittelalter viel bewusster auf Sauberkeit und Körperpflege, was die ahnungslosen Trottel in Hollywood den Leuten glauben machten. Dies gilt insbesondere für die Wikinger. Zugegebenermaßen genossen sie unsere modernen Annehmlichkeiten nicht und hatten oft Jobs, bei denen es darum ging, sich schmutzig zu machen, aber sie würden sich auf jeden Fall ein wenig aufräumen, bevor sie in die Taverne/den Tempel/das Bett gingen.

The returning crusaders brought the Arab bathing culture to Europe in the 11th and 12th centuries... in fact, in the 13th century every larger settlement had bathing rooms

Anyone who had ever played "Patricians"... they were an important element of the game... and of fundamental importance for society in the 13th century - and not just because of physical hygiene.

For example, you could be banned from the church - and not use the public baths!

The unhygienic age only began at the end of the 16th century - the peak was the Rococo period in the middle of the 18th century... bathing once every two weeks was the highest hygienic effort for the European nobility.

The political movements of the bourgeoisie consciously set a cultural counterpoint and revived bathing

10 hours ago, gregaaz said:

 

Es tut mir leid, das zu hören. Ich habe es nur noch einmal überprüft und konnte feststellen, dass die Bilder in Ordnung sind. Ich hoffe, dass sich die Seite in Zukunft besser für Sie verhält.

 

 

Ja, ich gehe weiter unten im Blog darauf ein, es ist ein von Dyndolod verursachter Fehler. Am Ende habe ich das Problem mithilfe eines Synthesis-Patchers behoben, um eine Markierung in den Zellendaten der obersten Ebene wiederherzustellen, die Dyndolod (ich nehme an, unbeabsichtigt) entfernt hat.

 

 

Ich glaube, dass D&B Schmutz nur präventiv auf NPCs anwendet, die in „schmutzigen“ Berufen arbeiten oder der Banditenfraktion angehören. Sonst sammelt sich Schmutz nur am Player (und evtl. Anhängern, ich weiß es nicht mehr) an und kann abgereinigt werden. Ich stimme Ihnen zwar zu, dass es gelegentlich immer noch komisch aussieht, etwa wenn Blacksmith zum Tempel geht, ohne sich abzuwaschen, aber alles in allem gefallen mir die Funktionen des Mods so gut, dass ich nicht zu sehr darauf schielen möchte.

 

Es verfügt auch über eine Schnittstelle zu Sexlab zum Aufräumen nach unordentlichem Sex.

The nonsense is the fact - that you have to go wash in streams and ponds... since there are no public or private baths anywhere to clean your own body.

Physical needs such as urinating or defecating were not even thought about during the game!

It doesn't have to turn out like this (thanks to Dwemer technology).

4 hours ago, Miauzi said:

 

The returning crusaders brought the Arab bathing culture to Europe in the 11th and 12th centuries... in fact, in the 13th century every larger settlement had bathing rooms

Very true, and even before that my understanding is that areas that had been more heavily 'culturally Romanized' prior to the decentralization of the empire into its successor states often continued to enjoy their hygenic culture for extended periods - essentially until the relevant infrastructure fell into disrepair, and in many cases even after that in a diminished capacity. 

4 hours ago, Miauzi said:

Anyone who had ever played "Patricians"... they were an important element of the game... and of fundamental importance for society in the 13th century - and not just because of physical hygiene.

For example, you could be banned from the church - and not use the public baths!

My wife and I listened to a nonfiction audiobook about the early medieval period and this was one of the points they raised. I don't remember which one it was as wel listened to these two more or less back to back but it was either:

• The Very Secret Sex Lives of Medieval Women: An Inside Look at Women & Sex in Medieval Times, by Rosalie Gilbert, or;
• The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century.

Both books were fun to listen to, though I'm not sure if they are available outside of English.

4 hours ago, Miauzi said:

The unhygienic age only began at the end of the 16th century - the peak was the Rococo period in the middle of the 18th century... bathing once every two weeks was the highest hygienic effort for the European nobility.

This was a plot point in the novel 1632 by Eric Flint (one of my favorite "comfort food" audio books to listen to because of the combination of interesting characters and a good narrator), specifically in the context of the Spanish Inquisition's efforts to unmask hidden Jews and Muslims, and how too much attention to your hygiene could get you ratted out by your neighbor as a potential 'Morisco,' and given the perverse incentives for the church to maintain a high conviction rate, once you were denounced you were probably doomed... so people maintained a 'pious level of Christian grime' for safety's sake. 

I wonder if the larger decline in hygiene is linked to that phenomenon directly or if its a confluence of other factors. I imagine sectarian conflict like the 30 years war didn't help, since it increased the number of displaced or otherwise destitute people and increased the population density in cities, while simultaneously reducing supply of staple goods and forcing people to make cuts elsewhere to keep fed and housed.

4 hours ago, Miauzi said:

The political movements of the bourgeoisie consciously set a cultural counterpoint and revived bathing

 

Agreed. One blind spot I often see in U.S. leftists (possibly because of the influence of Chinese socialist thought on some U.S. academics, which despite its slow death spiral into monarchy still clings to Maoist concepts like the ability to successfully build a socialist society directly on the foundation of a feudal one) is the idea that in the Marxist worldview, a phase of capitalism and the emergence of a bourgeoise is necessary to establish the infrastructure and baseline societal standards for more egalitarian modes of society to emerge. Obviously, Marx was neither a psychic nor a time traveler, and he got many things wrong in the details, but in the broad strokes the concepts of historical materialism (especially in a Eurocentric context) are valuable in understanding seemingly spontaneous shifts in social standards.

The combination of the gradual erosion of church power as a direct competitor to state power and the gradual disintegration of entrenched guild systems in favor of something that more resembled a modern professional and business-owner class, undoubtedly increased both the demand for better quality of life at all levels of society while simultaneously increasing the "supply" of the collection of goods and services that actually enable that standard of living.

As you noted, that transition happened over a very long time scale that might make it seem like a spontaneous, undirected development, but I think a deeper analysis of the trends in European society shows that the inciting events had been snowballing for quite a while.

But I digress. Have I mentioned how much I enjoy the historical insights you bring to these comment threads?

5 hours ago, Miauzi said:

 

The nonsense is the fact - that you have to go wash in streams and ponds... since there are no public or private baths anywhere to clean your own body.

Physical needs such as urinating or defecating were not even thought about during the game!

Haha quite true. In past builds I've tried to add facilities like these to the game, but it's difficult because the intense scale compression of the map makes it hard to maintain the illusion of scale at a distance if you add too many buildings to the exterior. And you can only add so many doors to large interior spaces before the suspension of disbelief starts to slip. 

That said, I expect I'll find at least some opportunities to add this kind of infrastructure to the world here and there.

4 hours ago, Miauzi said:

It doesn't have to turn out like this (thanks to Dwemer technology).

In my last build I used the Dwemerfication of Skyrim and Industrialized Skyrim mod to add amenities like this. I decided not to use them this time, though we'll see if Dwemerfication of Markarth at least makes it into the game - in the context of that particular city adding lots of Dwemer technology is much more lore friendly than elsewhere.

On 1/29/2024 at 2:36 PM, gregaaz said:

 

Sehr wahr, und schon vorher geht es meines Erachtens darum, dass Gebiete, die vor der Dezentralisierung des Reiches in seine Nachfolgestaaten stärker „kulturell romanisiert“ waren, ihre Hygienekultur oft über längere Zeiträume hinweg genossen – im Wesentlichen bis die entsprechende Infrastruktur zusammenbrach verfallen und in vielen Fällen auch danach in verminderter Leistungsfähigkeit. 

 

 

Meine Frau und ich hörten uns ein Sachbuch über das frühe Mittelalter an und dies war einer der Punkte, die sie ansprachen. Ich weiß nicht mehr, welches es war, ich habe mir diese beiden mehr oder weniger hintereinander angehört, aber es war entweder:

 

• Das geheimste Sexualleben mittelalterlicher Frauen: Ein Einblick in Frauen und Sex im Mittelalter, von Rosalie Gilbert, oder;
• Der Leitfaden für Zeitreisende durch das mittelalterliche England: Ein Handbuch für Besucher des 14. Jahrhunderts.

Es hat Spaß gemacht, beiden Büchern zuzuhören, obwohl ich nicht sicher bin, ob sie außerhalb der englischen Sprache erhältlich sind.

 

 

Dies war ein Handlungspunkt im Roman „1632“ von Eric Flint (wegen der Kombination aus interessanten Charakteren und einem guten Erzähler eines meiner liebsten „Comfort Food“-Hörbücher), insbesondere im Kontext der Entlarvungsbemühungen der spanischen Inquisition versteckte Juden und Muslime, und wie zu viel Achtsamkeit auf Ihre Hygiene dazu führen könnte, dass Sie von Ihrem Nachbarn als potenzieller „Morisco“ verpfiffen werden, und angesichts der perversen Anreize für die Kirche, eine hohe Verurteilungsrate aufrechtzuerhalten, wurden Sie wahrscheinlich, nachdem Sie denunziert wurden, auch verurteilt zum Scheitern verurteilt ... also behielten die Menschen aus Sicherheitsgründen ein „frommes Maß an christlichem Schmutz“ bei. 

 

Ich frage mich, ob der größere Rückgang der Hygiene direkt mit diesem Phänomen zusammenhängt oder ob es sich um ein Zusammenwirken anderer Faktoren handelt. Ich kann mir vorstellen, dass sektiererische Konflikte wie der 30-jährige Krieg nicht geholfen haben, da dadurch die Zahl der Vertriebenen oder anderweitig Mittellosen zunahm und die Bevölkerungsdichte in den Städten zunahm, während gleichzeitig das Angebot an Grundnahrungsmitteln verringert wurde und die Menschen gezwungen wurden, anderswo Kürzungen vorzunehmen, um sich zu ernähren und untergebracht.

 

 

Vereinbart. Einen blinden Fleck, den ich oft bei US-Linken sehe (möglicherweise aufgrund des Einflusses des chinesischen sozialistischen Denkens auf einige US-Akademiker, die trotz ihrer langsamen Todesspirale in Richtung Monarchie immer noch an maoistischen Konzepten wie der Fähigkeit festhalten, eine sozialistische Gesellschaft direkt auf dem Fundament erfolgreich aufzubauen einer feudalen) ist die Idee, dass in der marxistischen Weltanschauung eine Phase des Kapitalismus und die Entstehung eines Bürgertums notwendig sind, um die Infrastruktur und grundlegende gesellschaftliche Standards für die Entstehung egalitärerer Gesellschaftsformen zu etablieren. Offensichtlich war Marx weder ein Hellseher noch ein Zeitreisender, und er hat im Detail viele Dinge falsch gemacht, aber im Großen und Ganzen sind die Konzepte des historischen Materialismus (insbesondere in einem eurozentrischen Kontext) wertvoll für das Verständnis scheinbar spontaner Veränderungen sozialer Standards.

 

Die Kombination aus der allmählichen Erosion der kirchlichen Macht als direkter Konkurrentin der Staatsmacht und dem allmählichen Zerfall fest verwurzelter Zunftsysteme zugunsten von etwas, das eher einer modernen Klasse von Berufstätigen und Unternehmern ähnelte, steigerte zweifellos die Nachfrage nach besserer Lebensqualität auf allen Ebenen der Gesellschaft und erhöht gleichzeitig das „Angebot“ an Gütern und Dienstleistungen, die diesen Lebensstandard tatsächlich ermöglichen.

 

Wie Sie bemerkt haben, vollzog sich dieser Übergang über einen sehr langen Zeitraum, was den Eindruck einer spontanen, ungerichteten Entwicklung erwecken könnte, aber ich denke, eine tiefergehende Analyse der Trends in der europäischen Gesellschaft zeigt, dass die auslösenden Ereignisse schon seit geraumer Zeit auf dem Vormarsch waren.

 

Aber ich schweife ab. Habe ich erwähnt, wie sehr mir die historischen Einblicke gefallen, die Sie in diese Kommentarthreads einbringen?

 

 

Haha, ganz richtig. In früheren Builds habe ich versucht, Einrichtungen wie diese zum Spiel hinzuzufügen, aber das ist schwierig, weil die starke Maßstabskomprimierung der Karte es schwierig macht, die Illusion des Maßstabs aus der Ferne aufrechtzuerhalten, wenn man zu viele Gebäude an der Außenseite hinzufügt. Und man kann nur so viele Türen in große Innenräume einbauen, bis die Aufhebung des Unglaubens zu rutschen beginnt. 

 

Dennoch gehe ich davon aus, dass ich hier und da zumindest einige Möglichkeiten finden werde, der Welt diese Art von Infrastruktur hinzuzufügen.

 

 

In meinem letzten Build habe ich die Mod „Dwemerfication of Skyrim“ und „Industrialized Skyrim“ verwendet, um Annehmlichkeiten wie diese hinzuzufügen. Ich habe mich entschieden, sie dieses Mal nicht zu verwenden, obwohl wir sehen werden, ob Dwemerfication of Markarth es zumindest ins Spiel schafft – im Kontext dieser bestimmten Stadt ist das Hinzufügen von viel Dwemer-Technologie viel Lore-freundlicher als anderswo.

I finally find the time and muse to formulate an answer... a lot of things are going through my head because of my broken hip joint - but today I said "o.k." received from the doctor - who will then insert the "artificial" into me - in 8 weeks.

Why people went from the relatively clean Middle Ages (in terms of "body hygiene") in the Baroque era to downright "I don't wash myself no matter how I smell - what's the point of perfume after all" - I've heard or read a lot about that in the course of my life .

Today I would say... there were many factors - and I would even like to mention your reference to the Inquisition.

The bathing culture of the ancient Romans or the Muslim Arabs (all the way up to the Ottomans) differs very fundamentally from that of medieval Europe... essentially, even in the bathing rooms of larger cities, there are no "brick" pools - but tubs were used wooden.

In the rural areas the facilities were not even in permanent houses but in tents - the game "Kingdom Come Deliverance" shows this quite well.

In contrast, an Ottoman hammam was always a permanent building - even in villages.

Already in my youth - when I was dealing with the history of fashion (clothing, etc.) - I read the first explanations about the changes in body hygiene... in particular the plague epidemics were highlighted - the bathing rooms should be a main place of disease transmission.

In addition, there was a push from religion - because things were a little more "relaxed" in terms of morals and customs in the bathhouses.

From today's perspective, that's not enough for me - because it ignores two important circumstances:

- the (natural) climate change towards a small ice age (think of the frozen canals in the winter pictures of the painters from the Netherlands or Flanders)

- the deforestation of large parts of Europe - caused by the "iron economy"... at that time trees were felled and processed into charcoal in kilns - in order to be able to smelt iron ore. There wasn't much left to do the complex heating of the water and the bathing rooms.

It was only the severe cholera epidemics in the 19th century that led to a rethinking of water management and ultimately also personal hygiene.

--

I had been using a mod for the player house in Whiterun for a long time - which has at least a small bathroom in the basement... that's also in the game - but since my avatar wasn't in Helgen yet - there are no dragons and I can't use the house ( without a separate mod).

So I leave it with the intact sanitary facilities of my Dwemer Tardis - in addition to sinks, I also have flush toilets and showers - plus a steam sauna and cold room and, to top it off, a large whirlpool ... the absolute crowning glory of "Roman" decadence !

And of course a swimming pool under the library!!

I'm not redesigning the rest of Skyrim.

☺️